Author Topic: FSG (*)  (Read 828597 times)

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3240 on: February 7, 2017, 02:32:14 pm »
I agree with both your points but I just can't take these FSG out opinions seriously from our fans when it happens every time we go through a bad patch. I didn't see any reds complaining about the owners when we were smashing teams left, right and center. Everyone was talking about how we was a match for any side and we will win the league. Now we have dropped an awful amount of points, the blame game is coming out. If people truly wanted FSG out it would consistent all-year round, not just when we get smashed by Swansea, Wolves etc and go through bad runs. We had some right bastard owners in Hicks and Gillett and it was all their fault for us being shite and not being able to compete. This rut we are in now has nothing to do with FSG, it all down to Klopp and the players, they need to take a look at themselves.

Threads like this are born out of frustrations and people are looking to blame anyone but the players and manager they love, which is wrong.
I think the groups I mentioned keep these threads boiling away in the background, then as soon as the club hits a bad patch they are in easy reach of the disenchanted.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3241 on: February 7, 2017, 02:56:28 pm »
This thread got one new page a day in December

It ballooned when we started losing. Over four today and it's only 3pm??

I think it is easier for some to bash FSG than the hard truth that we have been playing poorly.

Offline cornelius

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3242 on: February 7, 2017, 02:59:13 pm »
I fail to see how these 'near misses' are a defence of the criticism leveled at the ownership for not providing the managers with good enough playing staff.
I wasn't using it as a defence, I was highlighting the fickle nature of fans. Had we won those 3 games I suspect our fan base would be masturbating into their socks about FSG. Just 6 or 7 weeks ago everything was rosy in the garden, Klopp is a genius, our way is the best way etc etc. One bad spell and now it's FSG out, we're doing everything wrong and so on.

Always feast or famine with our support. The reality is probably somewhere inbetween which is why I stated my position early in the thread as being torn. FSG are not the devil incarnate but yes they have to do better.

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3243 on: February 7, 2017, 03:00:20 pm »
This thread got one new page a day in December

It ballooned when we started losing.

I think it is easier for some to bash FSG than the hard truth that we have been playing poorly.

Its understandable. I am still waiting what happens in the summer and i attribute more responsibility to Klopp for not strengthening enough but you can see why people are pissed off. 6 of the players that lost 6-1 to Stoke played on Saturday and that was almost 3 years ago.

If managers are still keeping the same players and we are tearing our hair out then people would ask when we are actually going to consider trying to get better players.

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3244 on: February 7, 2017, 03:00:54 pm »
This thread got one new page a day in December

It ballooned when we started losing. Over four today and it's only 3pm??

I think it is easier for some to bash FSG than the hard truth that we have been playing poorly.

Is it really so hard to believe that it might gain traction as yet another season under FSG falls apart at the seams rather than earlier in the campaign when the same old issues havent yet had chance to tell?

Why wouldnt it be more readily frequented now than then?

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3245 on: February 7, 2017, 03:03:32 pm »
It's also very difficult on here to criticise anything when we're winning. The backlash for criticising individual players, i.e. suggesting our striker who misses countless sitters and only scores every 250-300 minutes might not be good enough to fire us to a title, is bad enough. Taking on a bigger issue like the manager or the ownership just isn't worth it.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3246 on: February 7, 2017, 03:07:13 pm »
It's also very difficult on here to criticise anything when we're winning. The backlash for criticising individual players, i.e. suggesting our striker who misses countless sitters and only scores every 250-300 minutes might not be good enough to fire us to a title, is bad enough. Taking on a bigger issue like the manager or the ownership just isn't worth it.

Quite right, a few people mentioned the fact we didn't play well in the 1-0 victory against Man City and received stick. 

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3247 on: February 7, 2017, 03:08:32 pm »
It's also very difficult on here to criticise anything when we're winning. The backlash for criticising individual players, i.e. suggesting our striker who misses countless sitters and only scores every 250-300 minutes might not be good enough to fire us to a title, is bad enough. Taking on a bigger issue like the manager or the ownership just isn't worth it.

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Offline plura

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3248 on: February 7, 2017, 03:08:51 pm »
It's also very difficult on here to criticise anything when we're winning. The backlash for criticising individual players, i.e. suggesting our striker who misses countless sitters and only scores every 250-300 minutes might not be good enough to fire us to a title, is bad enough. Taking on a bigger issue like the manager or the ownership just isn't worth it.

No it's really not the act or criticising someone that's frowned upon in here. It's how you do it.
I can agree at times the mods are a bit precious around it. But in 90% of the cases it's because people write stupid shit of posts that in no way whatsoever furthers any discussion around players, FSG or Klopp.

You can see the discussion in here is allowed. Ok it's not very productive and most repetitive. But it's OK and allowed to stay open.

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3249 on: February 7, 2017, 03:09:28 pm »
Its understandable. I am still waiting what happens in the summer and i attribute more responsibility to Klopp for not strengthening enough but you can see why people are pissed off. 6 of the players that lost 6-1 to Stoke played on Saturday and that was almost 3 years ago.

If managers are still keeping the same players and we are tearing our hair out then people would ask when we are actually going to consider trying to get better players.

It was a different manager that we lost to Stoke with. Klopp could hardly get get rid of players when he came in October. He needed to get to know the squad he had to see who if any could be part of his new plans. That will take time, I am sure by the end of this one he will know and start to dish out those who have no future.
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Offline penga

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3250 on: February 7, 2017, 03:10:31 pm »
I think this is the crux of the matter.

I would feel better if we spent £40m plus on just one player every year than buying 4 players for £25m that are not quite good enough. Of course you can get great players for less money occasionally, but that is really hard.

Every summer we seem to need a clear out. This year we could be looking at Sturridge, Moreno, Lucas, Sakho plus the youth who never quite made it as well as trying to bring in 5+ players.

I know we won't get him specifically, but if we bought Griezmann for £70m this summer and nobody else I would be delighted. Take some very, very cheap punts on younger players too, but don't bother buying decent, but not great players for £10-25m certainly not in key positions. Blow your cash down the spine first. That is what Rafa did with Reina, Alonso then Masch and Torres. Imagine if he had been able to spend £40m on a wide attacker after the season we finished 2nd.
If only it was as easy as spending money on it like that. As if Griezmann would want to come to this club when Atletico is still in a better place on the pitch and other clubs are ahead of us on the pitch in EPL with the same or more money available. Big money transfers don't guarantee anything in the current league and those 25-35mil range players give you the ability to spread the risk and in the end there are just as many hits if not an even more successful hit rate than the mega signings e.g. Kante, Luiz, Costa, Alonso, Pedro, Herrera, Bailly, Lallana, Gini, Son, Lukaku, Gabriel Jesus, Gundogan. Looking at the spending this summer from other clubs around the 40mil ( using euros because transfermarkt http://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/transfers/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2016&s_w=&leihe=0&intern=0&intern=1#to-11) and above you have:
Mustafi, Xhaka
Stones, Sane
Pogba, Mkhitaryan
Mane

How many world class successes from that list of most expensive transfers so far this season? I'd argue Mane our own signing has been as good as any of them if not better, and he's probably not even a mega signing considering I used euros not pounds, nor did he have a reputation as world class, just a good fit for our squad. There are some kids in there that haven't shown much as well. The only guy you could consider world class is Pogba who imo is a bit overrated and he cost 105mil euros...

If we look at a season before that:
De Bruyne, Sterling, Otamendi
Martial
Benteke, Firmino

Again just 1 player in KDB, rest are not near world class or are just young stars. Even Man Utd was struggling to attract a big name and in the end they had to settle on overpaying for Martial. Our signings were again on the lower edge of 40mil euros so can barely be classed there if you used pounds.

Season before that:
Sanchez
Di Maria

1 hit 1 miss. We were in for Sanchez and had the upper hand negotiating with Barca but he flat out rejected us unfortunately, wasn't to do with money unless you really believe after losing Suarez we couldn't spend enough for our 1st choice replacement who was like 60% or something cheaper in both transfer fees and wages. And Sanchez was cheaper than Di Maria by 30mil yet was the hit, at again just above the borderline 40mil euros.

« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 03:13:20 pm by penga »

Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3251 on: February 7, 2017, 03:13:59 pm »
Is it really so hard to believe that it might gain traction as yet another season under FSG falls apart at the seams rather than earlier in the campaign when the same old issues havent yet had chance to tell?

Why wouldnt it be more readily frequented now than then?

Hey, it's not my problem people blame FSG. It isn't hard to believe,  it's typical and very funny! I even made a bingo card out of it  :)

Nobody asks questions when we are winning. So if our losses are FSG'S fault, where's the discussion when we win?  Much shorter and less angry. Never full of praise. I personally think FSG are largely irrelevant.

The same old issues like losing to Hull? Most of you weren't even posting in here when the transfer window closed.

At least Al shows up daily and consistently.

Go look at the replies John Henry gets on Twitter this past week and explain to me how it helps the club?
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 03:17:14 pm by ToneLa »

Offline cornelius

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3252 on: February 7, 2017, 03:17:01 pm »
It's also very difficult on here to criticise anything when we're winning. The backlash for criticising individual players, i.e. suggesting our striker who misses countless sitters and only scores every 250-300 minutes might not be good enough to fire us to a title, is bad enough. Taking on a bigger issue like the manager or the ownership just isn't worth it.
If we were 7th or 8th, 10 -12 points behind everybody then fair enough fill your boots and let rip like a bastard but we're 4 points off 2nd and playing them at home next. We're 3 points behind City, 1 behind Arsenal and we're ahead of United. Not many were forecasting that at the start of the season. Most people were hoping we'd put in a fight for a top four spot. We're doing that. This top 6 is a bloody tough battleground. All of the teams above us have had problems and have been on the end of flak at some stage. Our expectations got raised because we were doing unbelievably well. Are things perfect? No. Does Klopp still have a lot of work to do? Yes. But if we're going to chuck the toys out every time we're not holding all of our competitors at bay then Klopp's tenure is going to become rather tedious.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 03:18:37 pm by cornelius »

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3253 on: February 7, 2017, 03:17:54 pm »

At least Al shows up daily and consistently.


That's like praising a stalker for their effort.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3254 on: February 7, 2017, 03:19:26 pm »
 ;D

I'll give him his due, he sure doesn't seem driven by bad moods. Unless they're permanent bad moods  :-\

Offline clinical

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3255 on: February 7, 2017, 03:30:32 pm »
Spurs and Arsenal out spend us?

Arsenal do in terms of wages.

Spurs have got lucky with transfers.

Spurs CBs and keeper cost a combined £25m and they are miles better than what we have for double the price.

Whilst they sign Vertonghen and Alderweireld for approx. £20m we sign Lovren. There's your difference. Not FSGs fault directly but scouting and player choice. We have much more transfer failures than most.

We spend £25m on Lallana and they get Eriksen for £10m. Not much difference between them except Eriksen can take great set pieces.

They have their failures too all when Bale left really but they are much better at choosing players overall. Probably something to do with not believing in the prem proven myth or something.

A lot of us can already see us missing out on Brandt and spending loads on Redmond as alternative. 
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 03:38:34 pm by clinical »
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Offline Souness1

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3256 on: February 7, 2017, 03:35:52 pm »
Quite right, a few people mentioned the fact we didn't play well in the 1-0 victory against Man City and received stick.

Thats probably because we did play well? We didnt give Guardiola's City a sniff whilst scoring a goal oursleves. Scoring 3 or 4 is not the only situation where you can 'play well.'

Offline cornelius

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3257 on: February 7, 2017, 03:37:58 pm »
People expecting wholesale changes in the summer are going to be disappointed. Klopp said when he came that there was plenty to work with and he was loyal to players. He added a few in the summer and we've clearly improved. No doubt he'll do the same this summer. I realise patience is thin on the ground but slow steady improvement has got to better than binning half the squad and the manager every 2-3 years.

Offline thelinnen

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3258 on: February 7, 2017, 03:40:17 pm »
1 hit 1 miss. We were in for Sanchez and had the upper hand negotiating with Barca but he flat out rejected us unfortunately, wasn't to do with money unless you really believe after losing Suarez we couldn't spend enough for our 1st choice replacement who was like 60% or something cheaper in both transfer fees and wages. And Sanchez was cheaper than Di Maria by 30mil yet was the hit, at again just above the borderline 40mil euros.
Alright then, I'll bite. I believe Arsenal offered more money than us.
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Re: FSG
« Reply #3259 on: February 7, 2017, 03:40:31 pm »
This thread got one new page a day in December

It ballooned when we started losing. Over four today and it's only 3pm??

I think it is easier for some to bash FSG than the hard truth that we have been playing poorly.


Why the mock surprise that the thread is busier during an awful run of results?......nonsensical to expect it not to be......people are rightfully concerned about the turn the season has taken and are shooting the breeze as to why our form has fallen off a cliff.....note the Klopp tactics thread - it was also gathering moss prior to December - its now also busier...as you'd expect....similarly, the idea that those who own the club and make decisions about playing staff and transfers policy should be given a complete walkover during the soul-searching and hand-wringing  is preposterous .....
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3260 on: February 7, 2017, 03:40:58 pm »
Thats probably because we did play well? We didnt give Guardiola's City a sniff whilst scoring a goal oursleves. Scoring 3 or 4 is not the only situation where you can 'play well.'

Agree to disagree, we were extremely wasteful in possession against them and a lot of the problems we've been seeing recently were on display in that game as well.

Offline Medellin

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3261 on: February 7, 2017, 03:42:48 pm »
What a thread.
Fries your feckin bonce.

Mistakes have been made..yep.
The summer window will reveal a lot about where we are going.
Lock thread.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3262 on: February 7, 2017, 03:45:12 pm »
No it's really not the act or criticising someone that's frowned upon in here. It's how you do it.
I can agree at times the mods are a bit precious around it. But in 90% of the cases it's because people write stupid shit of posts that in no way whatsoever furthers any discussion around players, FSG or Klopp.

You can see the discussion in here is allowed. Ok it's not very productive and most repetitive. But it's OK and allowed to stay open.

I didn't mention the mods. Think they do a great job with the exception of being a bit heavy on locking player threads.

Offline diegoLFC7

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3263 on: February 7, 2017, 03:45:43 pm »
Theres a difference in having a big game mentality and not being able to beat off the lower sides. City struggle against the top 4 but beat everybody else, same with every other club at the top. So in terms of squads, they have more quality. If we are going to compete for the league in the near future and europe we need to spend, end of story. We won't win the league with a negative net spend and buying cheap underdeveloped players that will turn world class in 5 years time. This isn't germany, this is the premier league and its a lot more ruthless than anything Klopp has come up against.
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Re: FSG
« Reply #3264 on: February 7, 2017, 03:47:33 pm »
Hey, it's not my problem people blame FSG. It isn't hard to believe,  it's typical and very funny! I even made a bingo card out of it  :)

Nobody asks questions when we are winning. So if our losses are FSG'S fault, where's the discussion when we win?  Much shorter and less angry. Never full of praise. I personally think FSG are largely irrelevant.

The same old issues like losing to Hull? Most of you weren't even posting in here when the transfer window closed.

At least Al shows up daily and consistently.

Go look at the replies John Henry gets on Twitter this past week and explain to me how it helps the club?

Sorry what have we won exactly?

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3265 on: February 7, 2017, 03:48:53 pm »

They have their failures too all when Bale left really but they are much better at choosing players overall. Probably something to do with not believing in the prem proven myth or something.

They've had a bunch of failures since Pochettino came in though, these are their transfers: Victor Wanyama, Vincent Janssen, Moussa Sissoko, Georges-Kévin N'Koudo, Son Heung-min, Clinton N'Jie, Toby Alderweireld, Kevin Wimmer, Kieran Trippier, Dele Alli, Benjamin Stambouli, Federico Fazio, DeAndre Yedlin, Eric Dier, Michel Vorm, Ben Davies.

How many of them have been succesful? 5 and then maybe 3 other back ups who i'm not sure how you rate.

Offline HeartAndSoul

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3266 on: February 7, 2017, 03:49:38 pm »
They probably thought they hit the jackpot when they hired Klopp. Must have been their wet dreams thinking Klopp would be able to find the next Lewandowski, Gundogan, Aubameyang, Hummels etc for peanuts and barely spending any money on players. Can clearly see at Dortmund they had a structure of scouting and signing players which we clearly don't have here. Let's see how much they're willing to back the manager come summer time. £20 million net spent per year is pretty low for a club with our resources.

Offline Jfor83

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3267 on: February 7, 2017, 03:49:50 pm »
They were saying what has been said all along, and also what was said about the Main Stand too - that if the figures add up when it comes time to make a decision (which was always when the Main was finished) then it will get done.

Latest seems to be that things are still progressing with the planning and that it could well end up seeing the capacity rise to well into the 60k level rather than the 58,500 previously mentioned (something I've suggested may end up being the case for a while now).

I really hope you're right mate, as I'm around 4500 on the season ticket waiting list ;). What I don't understand is the line 'if the figures add up', I've heard this before also. Surely they won't make a loss on doing the anfield road end even without the corporate shite. If they're here for the long term then couldn't they get the money back over say 20 years to make it feasible? To me they won't do it as really it only mainly benefits the supporters and won't be a massive cash cow for them, but having brought the club on the cheap they're already massively in profit when they come to sell.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3268 on: February 7, 2017, 03:54:06 pm »
I really hope you're right mate, as I'm around 4500 on the season ticket waiting list ;). What I don't understand is the line 'if the figures add up', I've heard this before also. Surely they won't make a loss on doing the anfield road end even without the corporate shite. If they're here for the long term then couldn't they get the money back over say 20 years to make it feasible? To me they won't do it as really it only mainly benefits the supporters and won't be a massive cash cow for them, but having brought the club on the cheap they're already massively in profit when they come to sell.

You're over simplifying it somewhat, as there will be value added to the club too for having an expanded Anfield. So even if you're saying they are only here short term then you'd still have to take expanding into account.

I imagine looking at longer repayment periods may come into it, in fact I'd be surprised if that's not been looked at/considered.

Offline clinical

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3269 on: February 7, 2017, 03:56:50 pm »
They've had a bunch of failures since Pochettino came in though, these are their transfers: Victor Wanyama, Vincent Janssen, Moussa Sissoko, Georges-Kévin N'Koudo, Son Heung-min, Clinton N'Jie, Toby Alderweireld, Kevin Wimmer, Kieran Trippier, Dele Alli, Benjamin Stambouli, Federico Fazio, DeAndre Yedlin, Eric Dier, Michel Vorm, Ben Davies.

How many of them have been succesful? 5 and then maybe 3 other back ups who i'm not sure how you rate.

You could  argue all those in bold have been either decent or amazing purchases.

Alli, Alderweireld and to some extent Wanyama have been the amazing signings for them. In the same period we have only Mane who has had same impact.
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Offline Souness1

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3270 on: February 7, 2017, 03:57:32 pm »
Agree to disagree, we were extremely wasteful in possession against them and a lot of the problems we've been seeing recently were on display in that game as well.

Which ones? Not trying to catch you out just curious. We were very solid defensively in that game.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3271 on: February 7, 2017, 03:58:48 pm »
Which ones? Not trying to catch you out just curious. We were very solid defensively in that game.

Chance creation and wastefulness in possession. We had a lot of promising situations in the game but barely looked like scoring again.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3272 on: February 7, 2017, 04:00:51 pm »
Alli, Alderweireld and to some extent Wanyama have been the amazing signings for them. In the same period we have only Mane who has had same impact.

Milner? Firmino? Clyne?

I'd argue Can, Origi and Lovren have been pretty good too.

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3273 on: February 7, 2017, 04:04:48 pm »
Chance creation and wastefulness in possession. We had a lot of promising situations in the game but barely looked like scoring again.

But we still won, you cannot look brilliant in every game.
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3274 on: February 7, 2017, 04:10:02 pm »
Sorry what have we won exactly?


Enough matches this season to be top four material  :)

Offline Jfor83

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3275 on: February 7, 2017, 04:11:27 pm »
You're over simplifying it somewhat, as there will be value added to the club too for having an expanded Anfield. So even if you're saying they are only here short term then you'd still have to take expanding into account.

I imagine looking at longer repayment periods may come into it, in fact I'd be surprised if that's not been looked at/considered.

Yeah I know there will be value added from expanding again, that's why I don't understand them taking about figures adding up. As surely if they're here long term, it can be paid back over a long period or if they aren't here long term, the value of the club will be greater anyway on top of the 500-1 billion increase in value already. Personally I don't think they want to do it.

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3276 on: February 7, 2017, 04:15:57 pm »
You could  argue all those in bold have been either decent or amazing purchases.

Alli, Alderweireld and to some extent Wanyama have been the amazing signings for them. In the same period we have only Mane who has had same impact.
I mean that's still only 7 players, less than half. And two of those are back up full backs who don't even trouble the two in front of them. They've had a lot of misses since he got there.

Mane, Firmino, Matip, Milner, Can, Lallana, Clyne. I'm not really wanting to get in to how highly rated our players are, how money should be spent and that, but they're all regulars and we're firmly amongst the top 6.


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Re: FSG
« Reply #3277 on: February 7, 2017, 04:20:20 pm »
Yeah I know there will be value added from expanding again, that's why I don't understand them taking about figures adding up. As surely if they're here long term, it can be paid back over a long period or if they aren't here long term, the value of the club will be greater anyway on top of the 500-1 billion increase in value already. Personally I don't think they want to do it.

Plenty said that about the Main too, and look what we have now!

You're talking about a big investment, so it will always be a case of it having to make financial sense. That may mean it ends up over a longer period, or it may mean the increased capacity which is being rumoured makes it more viable at the level of ticket price which can realistically be charged.

As said, it was never going to be done until the Main was, so I doubt we'll hear anything until at least the summer given it hasn't been yet and the new shop is underway.

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Re: FSG
« Reply #3278 on: February 7, 2017, 04:24:16 pm »
People expecting wholesale changes in the summer are going to be disappointed. Klopp said when he came that there was plenty to work with and he was loyal to players. He added a few in the summer and we've clearly improved. No doubt he'll do the same this summer. I realise patience is thin on the ground but slow steady improvement has got to better than binning half the squad and the manager every 2-3 years.
I agree this is exactly what will happen. I wouldn't like to see an exodus though. People complain about certain players, but against Hull we had two midfielders in defence and a converted midfielder in attack. We need to add depth and that can only be achieved by bringing in new but holding on to other players. As much as it pains me to see Can bestriding the field like a slow moving colossus, there will be a place for him next year. Ditto the likes of Moreno and even Markovic. It's more and better options that are required. 2 fullbacks, a centreback and a bally-playing midfielder, as well as another striker, 5 players to give the squad depth, without the sales of the likes of those mentioned. I mean, Ibe was sold because the money was good, but we could do with him as an option off the bench now, just as an example.
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Re: FSG
« Reply #3279 on: February 7, 2017, 04:26:26 pm »


Enough matches this season to be top four material  :)

We are in fifth right now and continue to fall down the table.
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