Topic: FSG (*)

[Kop 81]

Rafa signed some extremely mediocre players as well. There are people out there in the game with a much better eye for talent.

He would do a better job than whoever is in charge of signings now.

[eAyeAddio]

.....City have a Sheik, Chelsea have an Oligarch, Arsenal have one also and a billionaire American......

I'll tell you what is a fact: LFC have the 5th largest turnover; the 5th largest wage bill, and as I type we are 5th in the table.

We also have a billionaire American owner (nice new super-yacht you have there John...)  so let there be an end to all this 'can't compete with the big boys financially' drivel.

In the 6 years since NESV/FSG have been in control we have only been out-spent by City and United.

Let me clarify, over the past 6 years we have spent more on players  than Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs.  Fact.

Something else that  you might care to ponder:

1. Fenway invested £114m in the Main Stand

2. In February 2016 Liverpool fans balked at the new seating prices.

3. FSG / LFC bowed to pressure and kept historical prices.

4. After just a few months in the job, but after seating prices not being increased, Klopp was offered a new 6 year deal.

5. No net positive spend has been allowed for players in transfer windows subsequent to FSG / LFC backing down on prices.


Net result

If you don't want the higher seating prices, you can't have a new net positive spend on players.

And Klopp isn't going to fight it as he has a longer contract to keep him happy.

Conspiracy theory? - Perhaps.

Factually correct? - Certainly.

[Eeyore]

Last throw of the dice?

Its pretty clear Rodgers was their first roll of the dice that wasnt forced upon them, so this is their second roll of the dice.

Typical FSG they were forced to appoint Kenny so it was the fans fault when it went wrong, they wanted to build the Annie Rd stand but the fans forced them into not building it because we walked.

Poor FSG they are almost hostages of fortune.

[Chris~]

Sadly according to FSG's media friends the choice of CEO is pretty irrelevant because he is going to have less of a role on the football side than his predecessors.

We now have a Sporting Director in Edwards who is in charge of the Football side of things. A button pusher/video analyst with no experience of running a Club or even negotiating transfers.

So for me given FSG's the brightest and best don't work in Football we will end up with someone like a Jen Chang appointment someone who has never worked in Football.

No experience except all the transfers he helped work on in the summer?

[El Lobo]

No experience except all the transfers he helped work on in the summer?

Now he's leaving, I think you'll find that was actually Ian Ayre mate and FSG are making him leave.

[PhilV]

I'll tell you what is a fact: LFC have the 5th largest turnover; the 5th largest wage bill, and as I type we are 5th in the table.

We also have a billionaire American owner (nice new super-yacht you have there John...)  so let there be an end to all this 'can't compete with the big boys financially' drivel.

In the 6 years since NESV/FSG have been in control we have only been out-spent by City and United.

Let me clarify, over the past 6 years we have spent more on players  than Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs.  Fact.

Something else that  you might care to ponder:

1. Fenway invested £114m in the Main Stand

2. In February 2016 Liverpool fans balked at the new seating prices.

3. FSG / LFC bowed to pressure and kept historical prices.

4. After just a few months in the job, but after seating prices not being increased, Klopp was offered a new 6 year deal.

5. No net positive spend has been allowed for players in transfer windows subsequent to FSG / LFC backing down on prices.


Net result

If you don't want the higher seating prices, you can't have a new net positive spend on players.

And Klopp isn't going to fight it as he has a longer contract to keep him happy.

Conspiracy theory? - Perhaps.

Factually correct? - Certainly.

Thanks for pointing that out, that is fair. However I disagree with Klopp not moaning because he himself has a fat contract, does not seem like the type but I could be very wrong.

Also can't confuse personal wealth of an owner with what they are willing to spend of course, but even billionaires have vast difference of wealth, for example:

John W. Henry is worth 2 Billion or so

Abramovic is around 9-10 Billion

Sheik Mansour is 20 Billion plus, all these in USD

There is serious money differences there

[Eeyore]

No experience except all the transfers he helped work on in the summer?

What transfers we sent Southampton the usual £30m by direct debit, got a discount at Newcastle by sending them only £25m instead of the Carroll £35m and then we got bits and pieces from Klopp's old stomping ground. I am sure after shadowing the Harley one on those deals Edwards will be well set up.

Plus with Stevie back at the Club he can ring players up again for us.

Having contacts within the game and being able to contact agents about their players is so 20th Century.

[thelinnen]

Adam Lallama.

[tubby]

That's amazing.

[whiteboots]

I'll tell you what is a fact: LFC have the 5th largest turnover; the 5th largest wage bill, and as I type we are 5th in the table.

We also have a billionaire American owner (nice new super-yacht you have there John...)  so let there be an end to all this 'can't compete with the big boys financially' drivel.

To be fair, FSG never claimed they would drive their ownership through personal wealth. NESV/FSG is a boys  investment club, no more, no less.

[mattD]

Yep just when you thought it was impossible to find a less qualified DoF / Sporting Director than Comolli they pull it off.

Clearly Edwards doesn't have the background to be making huge decisions and with the CEO not being involved who does that leave ?

FSG and who better to help out JWH and co who know nothing about football than an analyst who according to some members of the press got this job because of his ability to analyse games and break it down into a form JWH could understand.

Exactly - who IS Michael Edwards?

The fact that he was a member of the transfer committee and voted for the Balotelli signing (amongst other major fuck ups by the committee) doesn't fill anyone with confidence.

It's a far cry from the likes of Michael Zorc's expert recruitment at Dortmund. Considering his past record and inexperience, Michael Edwards could very well do more harm than good.

[riismeister]

Sadly according to FSG's media friends the choice of CEO is pretty irrelevant because he is going to have less of a role on the football side than his predecessors.

We now have a Sporting Director in Edwards who is in charge of the Football side of things. A button pusher/video analyst with no experience of running a Club or even negotiating transfers.

So for me given FSG's the brightest and best don't work in Football we will end up with someone like a Jen Chang appointment someone who has never worked in Football.

Edwards has held leader positions in various departments at three different football clubs for the last 14 years, and aided Ayre in transfer negotiations in the 18 months prior to his promotion. Do you not see how that contradicts your statement or do you just make up lies as you go that fits your argument ?

[Jake]

What transfers we sent Southampton the usual £30m by direct debit, got a discount at Newcastle by sending them only £25m instead of the Carroll £35m and then we got bits and pieces from Klopp's old stomping ground.

I agree with you that we throw too much money at bang average players, but don't you think that means that FSG mean well, they just don't know anything about the game. We have spent half a billion since they took over on players. You'd think we'd get 11 good ones for that price.

[jillcwhomever]

Thanks for pointing that out, that is fair. However I disagree with Klopp not moaning because he himself has a fat contract, does not seem like the type but I could be very wrong.

Also can't confuse personal wealth of an owner with what they are willing to spend of course, but even billionaires have vast difference of wealth, for example:

John W. Henry is worth 2 Billion or so

Abramovic is around 9-10 Billion

Sheik Mansour is 20 Billion plus, all these in USD

There is serious money differences there

With the biggest due respect maybe the fact he hasn't said anything is due to the fact that he is not worried. He has a plan for the club over the next couple of years which he is working too. I just find it incredible how some on here are trying to involve him, in all this conjecture. This is the second day someone has tried to imply that the manager is somehow complicant in all that's going on with FSG. It is disrepectful to a man who is trying everything to turn this club around. His concern is the football side, not the business situation.

If you are going to believe everything Al insinuates maybe you need to realize that not one of us know everything.

[DangerScouse]

"Steady progress".  Christ almighty. Our worst on field finishes and trophy haul since the 60s and we have people calling it that. Get your heads out of the sand.

[CraigDS]

Exactly - who IS Michael Edwards?

The fact that he was a member of the transfer committee and voted for the Balotelli signing (amongst other major fuck ups by the committee) doesn't fill anyone with confidence.

It's a far cry from the likes of Michael Zorc's expert recruitment at Dortmund. Considering his past record and inexperience, Michael Edwards could very well do more harm than good.

You mean Zorc who had zero experience in the business side of running a football club before taking charge at Dortmund?

Funny how Edwards is a far cry from him, despite taking the job having vastly more experience behind the scenes at clubs at various levels over 14 years.

[Eeyore]

Edwards has held leader positions in various departments at three different football clubs for the last 14 years, and aided Ayre in transfer negotiations in the 18 months prior to his promotion. Do you not see how that contradicts your statement or do you just make up lies as you go that fits your argument ?

Let's break it down then at Pompey he was known as pro-zone 'Eddie'. So an analyst. He then followed Arry to Spurs to work as an analyst. Then Comolli brought him here as an analyst, he became part of the flawless Transfer Committee as an analyst and has then been promoted to Sporting Director.

So it what way does that qualify Eddie the Analyst to run the whole football side of a Club of the stature of Liverpool. We have been here before with Comolli's disastrous spell as DoF.

In the modern game analyst's are a valuable commodity and all teams use them. The problem is that instead of analysts providing experienced people with the data to do their job at Liverpool they get to run the show.

A good analogy would be that running a business you have someone at the top who is an organiser, an entrepreneur and a who has a vision of how the business can go forwards. One of the tools the person running the business uses is business analysts.

You don't have the analyst at the top making decisions because his specialty is analysis and numbers and analysis and numbers don't give you a vision. In short analysts are tools used by the business.

Unfortunately FSG have recruited a couple of tools to run the Football operation and it simply doesn't work.

[Eeyore]

You mean Zorc who had zero experience in the business side of running a football club before taking charge at Dortmund?

Funny how Edwards is a far cry from him, despite taking the job having vastly more experience behind the scenes at clubs at various levels over 14 years.

That is why Zorc doesn't run the business side Craig he runs the football side.

[Chris~]

What transfers we sent Southampton the usual £30m by direct debit, got a discount at Newcastle by sending them only £25m instead of the Carroll £35m and then we got bits and pieces from Klopp's old stomping ground. I am sure after shadowing the Harley one on those deals Edwards will be well set up.

Plus with Stevie back at the Club he can ring players up again for us.

Having contacts within the game and being able to contact agents about their players is so 20th Century.

So he does have experience then and also on the selling side where we did very well. And he was behind pushing for players like Can, Firmino and Mane who Klopp seems to love. Good job the buttons and Klopp like the same players I guess.

Fi ding a way to cry because we went and got players who suit Klopp this summer. Fucking hell.

[CraigDS]

That is why Zorc doesn't run the business side Craig he runs the football side.

Don't be pedantic, he runs the exact same side as Edwards is for us, which is the crossover position between football and business.

My point stands.

[whiteboots]

You mean Zorc who had zero experience in the business side of running a football club before taking charge at Dortmund?

He has nothing to do with the business side at LFC.

I have no problem with his appointment per se. The problem is in having the experience at the club to interpret the stats into sound football and business decisions.

[Eeyore]

Pretty much. Whole lot of criticism and nitpicking and precious little solution offers.

Erm no the likes of me and kiNki have been suggesting a solution since FSG looked for a CEO/MD six years ago.

Appoint a big hitting footballing CEO/MD with a record of success.

Appoint a top DoF/Sporting director with a proven track record.

Appoint a top Coach/Manager with a proven track record of success.

Appoint top scouts with a proven track record of actual identifying players and not for their Excel skills.

Recruit the best players you can regardless of cost/age/future transfer value.

Now six years in and we have seen what accomplishing only ones of those aims has done since Klopp arrived. Stop trying to re-invent the wheel, stop trying to be smarter than everyone else and stop this crazy obsession that sees LFC used as a lab rat to see if moneyball works in Soccer.

In short if you want to do things by numbers then my I suggest you sell up, retire and paint by bloody numbers and leave Liverpool to concentrate on winning trophies.

[Eeyore]

Don't be pedantic, he runs the exact same side as Edwards is for us, which is the crossover position between football and business.

My point stands.

It doesn't Craig the upper echelons of the Club are crammed full of Business types what we need is someone with the knowledge and expertise to run the football operation. The clue is in the title Sporting Director.

[hollger]

Spurs are building a new stadium that will be the biggest club stadium in London, and the second biggest in England. Their commercial and gate revenues will soon overtake ours. FSG have managed a stand.

FSG are not "doing a Spurs", they are watching while yet another club overtakes us in their ability to compete for the PL and CL.

In London, with London fans and London money.

Just out of interest if we built a nice shiny new 70k stadium, how often do you think we'd sell out/get close to filling it?

[CraigDS]

It doesn't Craig the upper echelons of the Club are crammed full of Business types what we need is someone with the knowledge and expertise to run the football operation. The clue is in the title Sporting Director.

How is it any different? You're holding Zorc up as some ideal candidate, but he had way less experience in the role when he took over than Edwards.

Or suddenly is this now nothing to do with Zorc, but all to do with 'business types' above him? Because that would be another change of argument for you.

[Eeyore]

He has nothing to do with the business side at LFC.

I have no problem with his appointment per se. The problem is in having the experience at the club to interpret the stats into sound football and business decisions.

Exactly analysts are a tool to give the decision makers the data to make decisions.

[CraigDS]

In London, with London fans and London money.

Just out of interest if we built a nice shiny new 70k stadium, how often do you think we'd sell out/get close to filling it?

It's also costing something like £750m...

[Barneylfc∗]

That's amazing.

In a 'what a complete and utter wanker' type of way?

[CraigDS]

Exactly analysts are a tool to give the decision makers the data to make decisions.

How do you know he cannot be a decision maker - have you never heard of people moving up the ladder and being promoted to decision making roles (or experienced it yourself maybe)? How did Dortmund know Zorc was a decision maker given he had no experience before they employed him?

[jillcwhomever]

I have to say I find it a bit weird as well. 

[CraigDS]

Story behind it is her friend was a Liverpool fan and Lallana was her favourite player. The one who got the tattoo used to joke his name sounded like Llama.

Her Liverpool supporting friend then died, so she got this tattoo in memory of her.

[Eeyore]

How is it any different? You're holding Zorc up as some ideal candidate, but he had way less experience in the role when he took over than Edwards.

Or suddenly is this now nothing to do with Zorc, but all to do with 'business types' above him? Because that would be another change of argument for you.

No it is about FSG's over reliance on number crunchers.

Commoli and Edwards got the gig for one reason and one reason only because they share FSG's data driven sabermetrics philosophy. Commoli had a truly horrendous record as a DoF before he was appointed, Edwards has none yet they were given control over the football side of the Club.

Who is going to be next Billy Beane's old Pentium P4.

[jillcwhomever]

Story behind it is her friend was a Liverpool fan and Lallana was her favourite player. The one who got the tattoo used to joke his name sounded like Llama.

Her Liverpool supporting friend then died, so she got this tattoo in memory of her.

Thanks for the background info Craig, that's a sad story. 

[CraigDS]

No it is about FSG's over reliance on number crunchers.

Commoli and Edwards got the gig for one reason and one reason only because they share FSG's data driven sabermetrics philosophy. Commoli had a truly horrendous record as a DoF before he was appointed, Edwards has none yet they were given control over the football side of the Club.

Who is going to be next Billy Beane's old Pentium P4.

Klopp is central to the whole football side at the club, and has spoken extremely highly of Edwards appointment as well as saying he was involved in the promotion I believe.

So if Klopp is happy what possible issue could a fan who has zero first hand knowledge about the inner workings of the club have?

[riismeister]

Let's break it down then at Pompey he was known as pro-zone 'Eddie'. So an analyst. He then followed Arry to Spurs to work as an analyst. Then Comolli brought him here as an analyst, he became part of the flawless Transfer Committee as an analyst and has then been promoted to Sporting Director.

So it what way does that qualify Eddie the Analyst to run the whole football side of a Club of the stature of Liverpool. We have been here before with Comolli's disastrous spell as DoF.

In the modern game analyst's are a valuable commodity and all teams use them. The problem is that instead of analysts providing experienced people with the data to do their job at Liverpool they get to run the show.

A good analogy would be that running a business you have someone at the top who is an organiser, an entrepreneur and a who has a vision of how the business can go forwards. One of the tools the person running the business uses is business analysts.

You don't have the analyst at the top making decisions because his specialty is analysis and numbers and analysis and numbers don't give you a vision. In short analysts are tools used by the business.

Unfortunately FSG have recruited a couple of tools to run the Football operation and it simply doesn't work.

Are you saying because a person had a nickname in his workplace 14 years ago and because his area of expertise is football performance analysis he is not fit to run the footballing side of a footballing operation? Because that's what it looks like you're saying behind the unecessary, defensive condescension.

Using your own analogy, very large businesses often have departments that organizationally will look like a small organization within the larger one, and each department will have a leader who's job involve having oversight of that department and also working with the leaders of other departments. Being a good department leader may get you a promotion to leading a larger/more important department and with time maybe even a whole section of departments or the entire business.

You also failed to comment on Edwards working alongside Ayre with transfer dealings for the past 18 months.

[KiNki]

You also failed to comment on Edwards working alongside Ayre with transfer dealings for the past 18 months.

No he did

What transfers we sent Southampton the usual £30m by direct debit, got a discount at Newcastle by sending them only £25m instead of the Carroll £35m and then we got bits and pieces from Klopp's old stomping ground. I am sure after shadowing the Harley one on those deals Edwards will be well set up.

Plus with Stevie back at the Club he can ring players up again for us.

Having contacts within the game and being able to contact agents about their players is so 20th Century.

[Eeyore]

Klopp is central to the whole football side at the club, and has spoken extremely highly of Edwards appointment as well as saying he was involved in the promotion I believe.

So if Klopp is happy what possible issue could a fan who has zero first hand knowledge about the inner workings of the club have?

Well Rodgers couldn't fucking stand him. Which really isn't the point though is it. Football Clubs should have an ideology and a vision. That requires people at the top with a clear understanding of the game.

Funny how when they need a marketing Director they go and head hunt someone with a proven track record in the field. Football operation side of things it's get people in who understand numbers. 

[jillcwhomever]

Well Rodgers couldn't fucking stand him. Which really isn't the point though is it. Football Clubs should have an ideology and a vision. That requires people at the top with a clear understanding of the game.

Funny how when they need a marketing Director they go and head hunt someone with a proven track record in the field. Football operation side of things it's get people in who understand numbers.

What has Rodgers got to do with it?

Also Klopp has got a vision for the club which he is currently trying to develop. All the reports seem to indicate he is willing to work with Edwards. Maybe we should wait and see.

[CraigDS]

Well Rodgers couldn't fucking stand him. Which really isn't the point though is it. Football Clubs should have an ideology and a vision. That requires people at the top with a clear understanding of the game.

Funny how when they need a marketing Director they go and head hunt someone with a proven track record in the field. Football operation side of things it's get people in who understand numbers.

You conveniently never answered me.

If Klopp, who is not only central to the footballing side of the club and vastly experienced having worked alongside the leading light which is Zorc, has decided after working with Edwards since he has been at the club and was part of the decision to promote him that he is happy with Edwards being in that role.

Then what possible argument could a fan who has no experience in any position in the footballing side of running a football club, and no first hand knowledge of Edwards, his techniques in recent years whilst working for us or what his role fully involves have?

[Anfield Kopite]

First and last post for a while.
Craig for the last 3 years - FSG Did not buy Liverpool on the cheap.
John Henry via e mail - If we can purchase LFC for the cost of the debt i feel we would be stealing that franchise.