Author Topic: FSG (*)  (Read 832264 times)

Offline Timeless Melody

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FSG (*)
« on: April 9, 2015, 10:18:14 pm »
http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2015/04/liverpool-little-more-than-a-balanced-investment-portfolio/

LITTLE MORE THAN A BALANCED INVESTMENT PORTFOLIO?
LIVERPOOL have played great teams many times, writes  PETER FURMEDGE. Quite a few times we have been behind illustrious opponents in terms of what we can put on the pitch. Sometimes quite a distance behind.
What always prevailed, something that brought grudging admiration and resentment our way in equal measure, was that arrogant Scouse-infused “fuck them, we’re Liverpool” attitude. It carried us through some unlikely triumphs. The 2001 UEFA Cup run saw Liverpool emerge from Europe’s shadows to beat Porto, Roma and Barcelona. Nobody needs reminding about 2005 and what happened when football’s hand of fate put Juventus, Chelsea and AC Milan in our way.
It also left us looking a bit daft at times as well, but that didn’t matter, a few pints later and we’d be ready to take on all comers again. Bill Shankly famously responded to a 5-1 first leg drubbing at the hands of Ajax by saying Liverpool would turn the deficit over in the second leg. 54,000 believed him. Clearly second best to the emerging Dutch masters, but clearly having none of it.
Wednesday 22nd October 2014 was the first time I’ve gone to a Liverpool match where the prevailing mood was one of awe. Yes we’ve applauded great players. Goalkeepers have always been given a good reception by The Kop. Decades ago, when Liverpool’s crowd struck as much fear into visiting fans as the players did to their teams, we used to always applaud opposition goals as well. But they were interludes in an unswerving conviction that, no matter how good the XI lined up against the Reds were supposed to be, “we are Liverpool and we’re going toe to toe with you”. Players and supporters alike. Partisan, passionate, aggressive. Sometimes deluded, never defeated before a ball was kicked in anger.
Against Real Madrid at Anfield, very large sections of the crowd lacked any sort of Liverpudlian arrogance or bottle. In fact, many were just as happy to be there because Madrid were in town as they were to support Liverpool.
This was also apparent with the team. I’m not advocating kicking the opposition off the park, but we barely put anything on any of their players. Would a Jamie Carragher, Phil Thompson, younger Steven Gerrard, Jimmy Case, Sammy Lee, Tommy Smith, Gerry Byrne or young Jon Flanagan have gone through 90 minutes without at least letting the superstars in white know they were in a game? Our team was standing off, not good enough to play Real Madrid and too in awe to battle with them instead. There’s playing it clean and then there’s being overawed.
Soccer - Football League Division One - Liverpool v Leeds United
Six fouls and no bookings in 90 minutes says the footballing demigods from Spain would have faced a sterner foe in the selfie-stick mob by the players’ entrance than they encountered on the Anfield turf that night.
The trip to Madrid for the return leg cemented an image of Liverpool as a club happy enough to play second fiddle. Never mind the team selection, Brendan Rodgers can pick who the hell he likes. Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier did it often enough to make me immune to unexpected line-ups. However, gone was the ultra-professional “get in, get the job done, get out” approach of years gone by. This was “little Liverpool on tour” — an entire club on a mid-season break. Everyone bar the then ostracised Mamadou Sakho on the plane to Madrid. Nobody on the club’s charter plane home. Instead, that extra 24 hours to “prepare” for the Chelsea game was spent in the Spanish capital and a narrow 1-0 defeat treated almost like a victory.
“Plucky Liverpool”, a club one step away from a losers’ lap of honour to a chorus of “we’ll support you ever more”. Not a hint of the steely-eyed determination to bridge the gap that typified the Reds of yore, just relief that a drubbing had been avoided.
How did it come to this? A global giant. Five times Champions of Europe. Now established as a feeder club to Barcelona and Real Madrid. A team that might as well have stood with autograph books welcoming Real Madrid onto the Anfield pitch. A crowd turning up and behaving like we’re Fourth Division underdogs playing, erm, Liverpool; the proper Liverpool that fears no foe.
Lack of vision. That’s what it is. And it comes from the very top.
A stadium development that will leave us permanently in the second tier of European clubs and struggling to keep up domestically. Sitting closer in terms of capacity to Newcastle than to Manchester United and completely giving up the ghost where the likes of old foes like Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund are concerned. Never mind Barcelona and Real Madrid, they’re over the hill and far away now. Built in obsolescence, an investment risk mitigated by the development’s minimal payback time being guaranteed by a decades long season ticket waiting list, premium prices that are yet to be set and the naming rights cherry on the cake. A big tick on the FSG investment appraisal, no matter that generations are priced out and already in the process of being alienated for good.

A transfer policy that’s all about unearthing talent that can be resold at a profit. Quarter of a billion pounds spent (some may say wasted) on “investments” in three years, largely evaluated on the basis of age and resale potential instead of ability to improve the first team. A balanced risk investment portfolio where a football team should be. Spreading risk across a transfer window and ending up with nine players of potential (maybe questionable) quality instead of concentrating the risk and ending up with three of proven status. A club that players now leave with their most successful trophy winning years ahead of them, yet it’s never the club’s fault.
A self-imposed salary cap that’s leading to a Gordon Lee style “no stars” policy in spite of the club still shelling out a gargantuan payroll bill. Blaming the lure of London instead of fighting it — how the hell did we bring John Barnes north and then keep him here? What are the likes of Sagna, Nasri, Clichy, Mata and Van Persie doing in Manchester if the mythical lure of London always wins out?
A support that’s been rinsed and cleansed and sieved out until all but the last bastions of the old ways and attitudes cling on, defiant in a vain hope that one day things will return to some semblance of “normality”. A new crowd, welcomed off chartered planes by Mighty fucking Red, filling hotels, clogging up motorways from all points north, south, east and west. Spectators and customers, taking selfies to a backdrop of opposition set pieces, providing an audience that’s more excited by the presence of opposition superstars than it is determined to help the men in Red put these upstarts from the continent back in their place.
The tipping point has been passed. First Liverpool ended up with the only penniless “billionaires” in America, now it seems we have the only Small Time Charlies from a land of Big Time Charlies. The new crowd accepts our place in the order of things, happily filming Ronaldo’s gloating goal celebrations and celebrating the avoidance of humiliation in Madrid like some sort of triumph in adversity. A tame and timid Anfield crowd, about as imbued with the Liverpool-Manchester rivalry as people who’ve rarely (if ever) set foot in either city can be, flat as a pancake for the traditionally the most partisan of all English football fixtures.
Quarter of a century without a league title, players leaving year on year for bigger and better things, how long before Rodgers becomes the first Liverpool manager to leave for bigger and better? Gone is the defiance. Gone is the arrogance. Gone is the vision of building Liverpool up and up until we conquer the bloody world.
Welcome to the sweetspot brothers and sisters in the #LFCfamily.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:44:32 pm by KiNki »

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #1 on: April 9, 2015, 10:29:24 pm »
It's depressingly true, they're not H&G but they want to make their profit at the club. Said in the other thread they probably deep down want Liverpool to be 2007-2013 arsenal. floating around CL making a profit and not expecting much more.

I don't see the ambition for us to compete at the top
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline Warks Moustache

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #2 on: April 9, 2015, 10:36:39 pm »
I am of two minds on this. On the one had, the article is spot on in describing how we haven't been willing to pay out in terms of bringing ready first team talent into the squad. We would rather sign the John Barnes who was just starting out at Watford rather than the complete force of nature he was when he joined Liverpool.

On the other hand, FSGs other sports interest, the Boston Red Sox are quite successful and they do make strong strides in getting quality talent onto their roster. They key difference I think is that the Red Sox haven't had such a long period of instability, something that we are still slowly emerging from.

I would to think that when we are comfortably successful in challenging for the upper echelons of the table that we would see big strides in investment regarding the playing staff, but I really don't know...

Online stoa

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #3 on: April 9, 2015, 10:49:28 pm »
I am of two minds on this. On the one had, the article is spot on in describing how we haven't been willing to pay out in terms of bringing ready first team talent into the squad. We would rather sign the John Barnes who was just starting out at Watford rather than the complete force of nature he was when he joined Liverpool.

On the other hand, FSGs other sports interest, the Boston Red Sox are quite successful and they do make strong strides in getting quality talent onto their roster. They key difference I think is that the Red Sox haven't had such a long period of instability, something that we are still slowly emerging from.

I would to think that when we are comfortably successful in challenging for the upper echelons of the table that we would see big strides in investment regarding the playing staff, but I really don't know...

To be honest, I don't think it's about the willingness to spend big money on players. We might not be paying the highest wages or the highest transfer-fees. We probably will never do that with teams like Chelsea, PSG, Man City, Real, Barca, Bayern or Manchester United around who simply have more money than us. The huge issue I have with how the club is run is that there's not strategy. Someone posted a quote from the time FSG took over (don't remember who said it), but the gist of it was that we don't have as much money as other clubs and therefore we have to be clever. If I look at the past transfer-windows we've been far from clever. I dare say that we were the complete opposite wasting money left, right and centre. People will rightly point at successful signings like Coutinho, Suarez or Sturridge and will point out that every club gets transfers wrong from time to time. Fair enough, I just have the feeling that we're not doing a good enough job. We sign too many players who are either not good enough, don't fit the way we're playing or who just get a handful of games until they spend the rest of the season in the stands and then get loaned out. That's what we have to fix. You can get good players for little money, but you have to make sure that they're the right one. It just feels that at times the thinking seems to be "Let's just buy him, because he's only 5 million. If it's not working out we're not losing that much and we can get the next guy for 5 million." That's the wrong approach in my view.

We don't need big money-signings. What we need is to sign players who improve the team right now and not maybe in three years, if everything works out as planned. I just don't get that kind of thinking, because you'll always be playing catch-up in the same way we're doing at the moment, always being in danger of losing and having to replace one of our top-players because they're not prepared to wait another year before they might maybe get back into the CL...

Offline Le_Mot_Juste

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #4 on: April 9, 2015, 10:51:19 pm »
Bit over the top, in my opinion.
The only better owners in the league are - City, Chelsea, Utd, Southampton, Arsenal (Possibly).
Whereas beforehand every single owner in the league was better than ours.

We did TRY to sign Alexis Sanchez, and Diego Costa...We did come within a few points of winning the league less than a year ago. AND we're finally fucking building the Anfield redevelopment. We could be better off, obviously, if we had a sugar daddy - But we could also be a lot worse off. They aint that bad.
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Online Fordy

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #5 on: April 9, 2015, 11:01:56 pm »
Bit over the top, in my opinion.
The only better owners in the league are - City, Chelsea, Utd, Southampton, Arsenal (Possibly).
Whereas beforehand every single owner in the league was better than ours.

We did TRY to sign Alexis Sanchez, and Diego Costa...We did come within a few points of winning the league less than a year ago. AND we're finally fucking building the Anfield redevelopment. We could be better off, obviously, if we had a sugar daddy - But we could also be a lot worse off. They aint that bad.
No we didnt try hard enough to get Sanchez or Costa.

Our owners said we would challenge in the transfer market but we can't as we don't want to pay the big wages.


Offline Redman0151

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #6 on: April 9, 2015, 11:15:53 pm »
No we didnt try hard enough to get Sanchez or Costa.

Our owners said we would challenge in the transfer market but we can't as we don't want to pay the big wages.



The quotes in my signature

"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012


I think we can say that's a lie now
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline bam09

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #7 on: April 9, 2015, 11:18:16 pm »
The quotes in my signature

"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012


I think we can say that's a lie now

FSG probably do have the resources to compete with it's having the interest to fully use them that they don't have.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #8 on: April 9, 2015, 11:22:15 pm »
The quotes in my signature

"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012


I think we can say that's a lie now

It was a downright stupid, incorrect and un-necessary statement to make at the time but anyone who believed it was delusional.

He also said in the same interview that Kenny "enjoys our full support" before firing him a month later so I can see why supporters are weary of Werner
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Offline Ronnie1932

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #9 on: April 9, 2015, 11:35:39 pm »
Do people on here wishing for sugar daddy's realise we only just passed FFP?

Offline decky

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #10 on: April 9, 2015, 11:36:02 pm »
No we didnt try hard enough to get Sanchez or Costa.

Our owners said we would challenge in the transfer market but we can't as we don't want to pay the big wages.



Costa was offered big money, way more than he was on at Atletico at the time. He wanted to stay, we tried again for him last summer but he wanted to go to Chelsea, Mendes and Mourinho are close and he was always going there if they wanted him. Wages weren't the issue either with Sanchez, again he just preferred to go to Arsenal. I really don't think we could have done much more to persuade either of them to come

Online steampie

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #11 on: April 9, 2015, 11:44:53 pm »
Some valid points offered in the article minus any sort of realistic solutions. How are we supposed to go toe to toe with the European giants whilst also reclaiming the - let's face it - fairly-long-gone soul of the club? Only asking because I can't for the life of me see how to reconcile the two, and the article seems to imply it's somehow possible without showing how. And just giving Madrid a kicking wouldn't do it (though I would've loved seeing a bit of that mind you).
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #12 on: April 9, 2015, 11:47:31 pm »
Curious article. Disagree on stadium willy waving. Can argue the toss over transfer policy, but I'd suggest buying just the three players would have left us ridiculously short this season. The 'salary cap' is a hard one based on how much money the club takes in. But you can argue the toss around that whether X player deserves Y part of that. Barnes was moving to a club which regularly won league titles. We've not won the league in the lifetime of some of our support, and in more recent memory have struggled to even qualify for the Champions League. Comparisons to the Manchester clubs need to be made with comparisons on how much money they're taking in to pay over the odds to take players in.

It just seems misguided. Yes, nostalgia. And, yes, the modern game stinks in many, many ways. And the commercialism and endless chasing of every last corporate pound is ugly. But those aren't FSG's fault. They're playing the ownership game as it is.

Sorry, just, curious piece which seems more about disenchantment with the modern game and trying to tie it to the current owners. Which is fair enough if you're willing to address the consequences of heading away from the commercialism and bollocks.
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Online Gnurglan

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #13 on: April 9, 2015, 11:52:32 pm »
I disagree with the view of FSG. The way I see it, they've given us the financial stability we need. They're expanding the stadium. They're actually getting it done. We've had lots of money to spend in the transfer market. I don't know if they have this policy that we can't sign anyone over a certain age, if there's a wage cap or stuff like that. I don't know. What's clear to me though, is that our real problem area is our transfers. Looking back over the last 4-5 years, we're wasting enormous sums of money. But the money has been there. We just take half of what we have and hand it away as generous gifts to clubs everywhere.

About the atmosphere, it feels a bit odd for me to comment. Haven't been to Anfield in a long time now. BUT I think it's too tempting to blame that on FSG as well. Judging from what I hear on tv, Anfield is not the only ground with an atmosphere that is getting worse. I know it's possible to improve it though. I have commented on it in the thread about atmosphere.

The team we put out against Real, at home, was opened up by a very strong side. Away, we changed, after having been poor. We lost to Newcastle and were pretty bad. It was not that team we should bring to Bernabeu. So we changed. We improved our performance, but lost. We then returned to our 'best' side and lost again, to Chelsea. Let's face it, with some distance to those games - we were not good enough. Why? Why did we lack that fire? Again, because we were not good enough. We haven't got those qualities in the side. Is that the fault of FSG? Or is it, perhaps, the fault of our TC, or perhaps even the manager?

I like what I see in Rodgers. I've mentioned it many times. Do I want to keep him? Yes. He has my support. Enough said on that. However, this is also his third season. We have spent extreme amounts of money. And right now, we don't seem a whole lot better than we were three years ago. Last year, yes. This year, no. I give you Lovren, Moreno, Balotelli, Markovic, Manquillo, Lambert and Lallana. Honestly, how many of them would get into your first eleven? That's close to 100M spent last summer. How many first picks? Would ANY of them make the team if everyone is fit?

Why do I say this? Because this is our problem. Right there. If FSG have some restrictions, if they are responsible for those signings - they are to blame. I suspect they are not the ones picking players. The responsibility here is with the people on the TC. It is very tempting to pin it all on FSG, but is it fair? Or is it a way to deflect responsibility from someone we like, to an easy target?

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Offline trimore

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #14 on: April 9, 2015, 11:53:58 pm »
It's a fine line between defeatist and realist. A little more than a year ago Arsenal were in crisis after being crushed by us at Anfield and now it us who have no spine and no fight. These things come and go.

And John Barnes left London for Liverpool at a time when footballers where less glamorous than they are now. It's not comparable.

The value of fight in any team is difficult to determine. Diego Simeone is an extremely rare manager. We get an angry manager who likes to hurt other players we are much more likely to end up with a fat Sam or Pulis than a Simeone. Fast attacking football or possession football wins more often than not. And we have a manager that can implement it.

Overall think the articles way too pessimistic with our current set up and overvalues the past where our sole advantage were great coaches who are now dead or in Kenny's case past it, we have to be patient. Yes we have been waiting 26 years but our owners have only been on the job for a few, anything before their takeover doesn't matter. 
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #15 on: April 9, 2015, 11:55:16 pm »
No we didnt try hard enough

What a load of complete and unsubstantiated dosh. What is it with other reds continually trying to find things to attack each other and the club with. FFS.

Even if there is a point in there, that we could have tried A or B or done X or Y better, just coming out and criticising for the sake of criticising is completely unwarranted and extremely inflamatory imo.

What, in your mind Fordy, would "trying hard enough" look like ???

Online richmiller1

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2015, 12:03:41 am »
http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2015/04/liverpool-little-more-than-a-balanced-investment-portfolio/

LITTLE MORE THAN A BALANCED INVESTMENT PORTFOLIO?
How did it come to this? A

Lack of vision. That’s what it is. And it comes from the very top.

A stadium development that will leave us permanently in the second tier of European clubs and struggling to keep up domestically. Sitting closer in terms of capacity to Newcastle than to Manchester United and completely giving up the ghost where the likes of old foes like Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund are concerned. Never mind Barcelona and Real Madrid, they’re over the hill and far away now. Built in obsolescence, an investment risk mitigated by the development’s minimal payback time being guaranteed by a decades long season ticket waiting list, premium prices that are yet to be set and the naming rights cherry on the cake. A big tick on the FSG investment appraisal, no matter that generations are priced out and already in the process of being alienated for good.

A transfer policy that’s all about unearthing talent that can be resold at a profit. Quarter of a billion pounds spent (some may say wasted) on “investments” in three years, largely evaluated on the basis of age and resale potential instead of ability to improve the first team. A balanced risk investment portfolio where a football team should be. Spreading risk across a transfer window and ending up with nine players of potential (maybe questionable) quality instead of concentrating the risk and ending up with three of proven status. A club that players now leave with their most successful trophy winning years ahead of them, yet it’s never the club’s fault.

A self-imposed salary cap that’s leading to a Gordon Lee style “no stars” policy in spite of the club still shelling out a gargantuan payroll bill. Blaming the lure of London instead of fighting it — how the hell did we bring John Barnes north and then keep him here? What are the likes of Sagna, Nasri, Clichy, Mata and Van Persie doing in Manchester if the mythical lure of London always wins out?

A support that’s been rinsed and cleansed and sieved out until all but the last bastions of the old ways and attitudes cling on, defiant in a vain hope that one day things will return to some semblance of “normality”. A new crowd, welcomed off chartered planes by Mighty fucking Red, filling hotels, clogging up motorways from all points north, south, east and west. Spectators and customers, taking selfies to a backdrop of opposition set pieces, providing an audience that’s more excited by the presence of opposition superstars than it is determined to help the men in Red put these upstarts from the continent back in their place.

I grow very tired of these kind of rants. Howling at the moon whilst sinking under the weight of its own internal contradictions. There seems to be a new one every couple of days at present.

Ignoring for one moment the hyperbole that riddles the piece, can anyone explain how the current ownership is expected to resolve these core complaints without:
A) Ploughing millions in sugar daddy style; or
B) Piling catastrophic debt back onto the club; or
C) Breaching FFP

No question this club has suffered from a lack of vision, ambition and strategic planning. That has been the case since the mid 80's. I fear it's going to take a bit longer than 4 years to correct that damage so some should probably consider reaching for the antidepressants or a Chelsea shirt

Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2015, 12:22:32 am »
I will say, that cigar John Henrys puffing on after the Red Sox won the world series, that looked like a really good cigar.

Being an Eastern Canadian, i can tell you from observation that the woe those people in Massachusetts suffered before FSG came along knew no bounds or end for a lifetime.

The general corporatization of sports is a real problem for average fans and the FSG are part of that big picture problem but thats a different argument than what the groups intentions for the club are.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2015, 12:26:19 am »
I will be honest. That article for me is a total load of bollocks.

a] The first 4 paragraphs bemoans the fact that Liverpool are not as competitive as before but concludes this results from a lack of vision from the top, rather than the result of a near breakdown of the club allied to the influx of petrodollars to the game. It lacks context and smacks of entitlement. The complaint seems to be "why aren't our owners richer and willing to spend billions on our side like Chelsea, Madrid, Barca and City do." Childish in the extreme.

b] "A stadium development that will leave us permanently in the second tier of European clubs and struggling to keep up domestically." I hated this line the most, hence why I have quoted it. For the first time in 40 odd years the ground is undergoing a major expansion at enormous expense and this is churlishly described as 'second tier'despite the fact when redeveloment is done it will put Liverpool just behind Arsenal and also united in terms of capacity. What did he want, an 80,000 seater? ridiculous.

c] He says the transfer policy is aimed at maximising a profit. If that were so, why then did they refuse to sell Suarez to Arsenal and insist he stay and honour his contract? In fact, exactly how many players have FSG sold for profit to date? Their stated aim is to buy potential and aim to compete with the bigger sides through steady development. You can criticize that all you like, but his argument that they are turning a  profit on sales is ludicrous. The only player they have turned a profit on is Suarez, he was the architect of his own transfer and the monies made were ploughed straight back into the squad.

d] there are so many contradictions and speculations its embarassing. Where is his evidence that salaries are capped? And how does that fit in with the gargantuan wage bill. He complains its about breadth over depth, but how does that fit in with his thesis that the owners are trying to make a profit? Talking about bringing in big stars is also annoying. The squad was thin last year, very thin. He wanted two or three stars... god knows who, just stars, apparently x spent = x amount of talent. Its stupidly simplistic.... but then how would Liverpool have competed with all the new games they had? Its hindsight allied to petulance.

E] the final straw is the drivel about the fanbase. Get fucked is all I will say to that. Perhaps his mythical sugar daddy owners will buy him a new set of fans that will holler and clang bells all day long, while abusing the players for not being stars. Portsmouth is a bit fucked these days, perhaps they can pay some of those fans to come down.

I hate these kind of articles, they reach into the past, pluck out some mystical bullshit from their minds eye, tall tales of pies and laughter as they strutted through the Bernabeu earning admiring glances from oppsoition fans, they take these fantastical images and use them to shield themselves from criticism and bash anyone who dares raise a querelous finger. "I remember I had a pie". Worst than Shearer this guy.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 12:30:39 am by DonkeyWan »
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline decky

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2015, 12:35:18 am »
I will say, that cigar John Henrys puffing on after the Red Sox won the world series, that looked like a really good cigar.

Being an Eastern Canadian, i can tell you from observation that the woe those people in Massachusetts suffered before FSG came along knew no bounds or end for a lifetime.

The general corporatization of sports is a real problem for average fans and the FSG are part of that big picture problem but thats a different argument than what the groups intentions for the club are.

yep, no world series in 80 odd years and now they have 3 in a decade. To think they don't want the same at Liverpool is frankly ridiculous.

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2015, 12:46:24 am »
Their tranfer strategy has been flawed from day one and they don't appear to have learned lessons in that respect, pretty much my only gripe with them apart from their abysmal treatment of Kenny.

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2015, 12:54:37 am »
yep, no world series in 80 odd years and now they have 3 in a decade. To think they don't want the same at Liverpool is frankly ridiculous.

They had zero affiliation with this club before they bought it, and still don't. Not sure the situations are comparable. I'm convinced they will be gone in the next 10 years, rest assured J. W. Henry will still own the Redsoxs in 10 years time. Business opportunity is all Liverpool Football Club was to them, Redsox is a different ball game(no pun intended). By no means are they as bad as other owners but they still have a considerable amount to learn in trying to bring this club back to where it belongs.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2015, 12:55:01 am »
I don't even need to read it to know it's bollocks. FSG were the best owners we could have had in the circumstances.

If they have had failures then they would have had far less failures than the alternatives, e.g.

a) Plastic Billionaire hire-and-fire specialists, e.g. Mansours, or those crooks at QPR.
b) Local businessman with no real idea or plan, e.g. Mike Ashley
c) Other, who knows.

FSG have a certain amount of cash and they have a philosophy which reasonably satisfies ethical considerations. We are not irrelevant like Chelsea and Man City and we are not debt-ridden like Man Utd. And we are not in Tottenham's position or Newcastle's position.

The only clubs better run than us are Southampton and Arsenal. That's not bad, especially since we had to sell at that exact time and there were only two choices, one of which was a sugar-Daddy.

Do you want to be Man City? Do you? Really? I can't believe anyone wants to be like that.

Offline Cork Red

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2015, 01:01:23 am »
Do people on here wishing for sugar daddy's realise we only just passed FFP?

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people simply don't get it.  You question them about it and they reply that they don't want a sugar daddy, they just want 'the owners to put their own money in'.  The fact that this is prohibited by FFP just doesn't seem to sink in.  Our last shot at a sugar daddy sailed when Moores turned down the Dubai offer in 2007.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2015, 01:06:41 am »
They had zero affiliation with this club before they bought it, and still don't. Not sure the situations are comparable. I'm convinced they will be gone in the next 10 years, rest assured J. W. Henry will still own the Redsoxs in 10 years time. Business opportunity is all Liverpool Football Club was to them, Redsox is a different ball game(no pun intended). By no means are they as bad as other owners but they still have a considerable amount to learn in trying to bring this club back to where it belongs.

They've had no affiliation with the Red Sox either.

John Henry is from Illinois, and has fully owned or had stakes in a number of baseball teams before buying the Red Sox, as well as owning/having stakes in many other sports teams. Tom Werner is from New York, and as with Henry, has owned stakes in many teams prior to the a Red Sox.

As far as I'm aware neither lived or worked in Boston prior to buying the Red Sox.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 01:11:16 am »
The quotes in my signature

"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012


I think we can say that's a lie now

It could be a lie, or it could be a television producer's naivete in not knowing what "resources in football" actually might entail.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 01:21:13 am »
They've had no affiliation with the Red Sox either.

John Henry is from Illinois, and has fully owned or had stakes in a number of baseball teams before buying the Red Sox, as well as owning/having stakes in many other sports teams. Tom Werner is from New York, and as with Henry, has owned stakes in many teams prior to the a Red Sox.

As far as I'm aware neither lived or worked in Boston prior to buying the Red Sox.


I was under the impression he also owns the Boston Globe and actually lives in Boston which would suggest to me they have a strong connection with the city of Boston and Redsox in comparison to our beloved football club.


Offline CraigDS

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 01:24:42 am »
I was under the impression he also owns the Boston Globe and actually lives in Boston which would suggest to me they have a strong connection with the city of Boston and Redsox in comparison to our beloved football club.

He has only recently bought the Globe, and only moved to Boston after buying the Red Sox as far as I am aware.

He/FSG had no connection long standing connection to the Red Sox before purchasing them.

Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 01:42:11 am »
This is going to end well.
Someone should do the right thing - go back in time to 1992 and destroy the codes to Championship Manager before it is ever released

Offline Liamski-la

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 01:46:53 am »
The chap is clearly just trying to point out that JWH has slightly more connections tying him to Boston than that of Liverpool which is undoubtedly correct.

I offer a guess that when he rarely visits Liverpool, he probably stays in a hotel.

Which is probably in London.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 01:48:24 am »
It could be a lie, or it could be a television producer's naivete in not knowing what "resources in football" actually might entail.

Two years into the job? They studied the books before buying along with rival clubs books, they were mainly enticed by TV money and taking ownership of that.  Still clueless to the real pot of gold.  The fans.

Say it again and again, despite being shite for 25 years, we are still one of the biggest supported clubs on the globe and still, 5 years into their ownership, and what 10 years since talking of a move to a bigger stadium, we are 23rd when it comes to average attendance in Europe.   

20 fucking third.

Behind the might of Newcastle, Hanover 96 and other shite, and while we finally have got round to getting a spade in the ground, City, Chelsea, spurs/west ham are all looking to up the ante with increasing capacity or stadium moves. 

United bought a clue with the enforced redevelopment 25 years ago, despite averaging 48k and seeing their capacity drop to 44 with all seater, they didn't bang on an extra 4/5/6 thousand seats, they upped it 55k, and then upped it again and again.  They didn't let demand exceed supply, they added more seats, more bums on seats the more pies sold, the more proggys sold, the more merchandise sold, the more sponsorship money, the more money the more ability to compete with the best for the best signatures.

The pot of gold is the fans, the fans are being served a shit sandwich, fleeced cos supply exceeds demand, because wools know if they throw down a wedge, they can jump the queue, but even these people and their small pot of gold isn't gonna bridge the financial gulf until they get a clue about how big this club is in the grand scheme of things.

30k travelled to Istanbul and Athens, 80k turned up in Australia, same in the u.s and half of fucking Ireland supports us, along with the Scandinavian countries, and then there are our friends in Asia, lest they forget the support that carried the club for a hundred years, right here, on their doorstep, priced out and driven away while they chase every other dollar bar the bleeding obvious that is right here.

We have the capability of competing for the best for the best signatures because we are one the biggest supported teams in the world.  That simple. 



Offline kcbworth

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 01:53:43 am »
Why do so many reds feel the need to incite a civil war. What is the deal??

Good article from TAW on FSG

No... it's really not

Lack of vision. That’s what it is. And it comes from the very top.

Personally I believe we have more vision than any other club bar perhaps Southampton, but perhaps that's just me. We did just finish a whisker away from winning the league last season, when early in the season we were not expected to even crack the top 5???

A stadium development that will leave us permanently in the second tier of European clubs and struggling to keep up domestically

I do think it's curious we haven't gone for a super stadium. Personally though I think that's more reflective of the community and fanbase, and the owners desire to stick to the club's roots, rather than due to the owners being cheap. From what I can see most are happy we've stuck with Anfield, while having some sympathy for the locals who've been displaced because of the expansion. I personally... don't know. Very difficult problem to solve in all honesty.

A transfer policy that’s all about unearthing talent that can be resold at a profit

Ok, what?!? Where is there even a smidgen of evidence that we aim to resell at a profit. I mean seriously, where? Have we even done, this ever??? Sometimes I also write the first part of this sentence, but for me it typically looks more like A transfer policy that’s all about unearthing talent that can win us a shitload of things

largely evaluated on the basis of age and resale potential instead of ability to improve the first team.

Nope... I think the correct statement is - largely evaluated on the basis of us being able to find diamonds in the rough, and try to outsmart our opponents by finding younger players before they figure on the radar of the money wasters to try to sustainably build a team of superstars"

Spreading risk across a transfer window and ending up with nine players of potential (maybe questionable) quality instead of concentrating the risk and ending up with three of proven status.

I'm pretty sure when the club spent significant transfer fees on Lallana, Sakho, Lovren, Markovic, and even Moreno, they weren't thinking about "spreading risk". I think at those prices, the club would not have believed that there was any risk at all. And the cheaper players - every club has always brought in players to expand a squad, particularly when entering more comps and trying to build on success. It has always happened. And players like Can have even exceeded expectations. This is nothing to do with "spreading risk" and all to do with having a quality squad. I would say the most "risk spreading" transfers have been Sturridge, Coutinho, and maybe Mignolet (who I think was a curious buy), and the most "risky" transfer obviously Balotelli. Should we have gone in with bigger offers for someone than we did on Sturridge, Coutinho - maybe, but they've worked out ok. Mignolet and Balo I'll give you - weird transfers.

A club that players now leave with their most successful trophy winning years ahead of them, yet it’s never the club’s fault.

Pretty sure that's happened less under FSG than it did under the previous owners, so not sure what the slight on the current ownership structure is here ??? In fact, isn't Suarez the only one ???

Blaming the lure of London instead of fighting it — how the hell did we bring John Barnes north and then keep him here? What are the likes of Sagna, Nasri, Clichy, Mata and Van Persie doing in Manchester if the mythical lure of London always wins out?

Fuck this argument drives me to shits. ONE player... Alexis Sanchez... who by all reports before, during, and after this episode, is a prima donna married to a similarly prima donna-ish version of himself, had his own vision of where he and his wife should spend their years in the UK. ONE FUCKING PLAYER. Is it seriously so hard to believe. Fucks sake.

It would have been easier if H&G & Cecil hadn't fucked us away from the top and we were seen as a natural equivilant to Barca and Real in 2014, but the fact that we aren't isn't due to FSG's lack of trying to restore us to that level. There will be ups and downs getting there, but if we continue to antagonise and cannibalise ourselves as a fanbase, it's going to be harder. How about supporting and offering constructive input, rather than just blindly criticising everything.

Btw "spend more money" is only constructive input if you put in more money. So go on - how about you suggest we pay more for tickets. Or donate your money to Alexis Sanchez MkII to ensure we get him here. But don't just blindly criticise.

Spectators and customers, taking selfies to a backdrop of opposition set pieces, providing an audience that’s more excited by the presence of opposition superstars than it is determined to help the men in Red put these upstarts from the continent back in their place.

Not sure what FSG have to do with that? Oh you mean how their trying to make enough money to hold onto players that try to blackmail us into paying them exorbitant amounts of money so they will accept a new contract... what exactly would you do?

Liverpool ended up with the only penniless “billionaires” in America

Facts under FSG:

* We have paid the highest ever wage for a Liverpool player - Luis Suarez - by some distance
* We have paid the highest ever transfer fee for a Liverpool player - Andy fucking Carroll - by some distance
* We brought in a player - Luis Suarez - who is quite possibly in the top 2 or 3 (in terms of ability) players in our history, and is currently a top 5 player in the world

"Penniless" where does this even come from?

I will say that I want to see more Suarez, Sturridge, and Coutinho level acquisitions. It would have been good to bring Fabragas or Ozil or Di Maria here. I think we should do a bit more of that. No question. We spent a fuckload of money on Andy Carroll though, so I think the problem is not money, but ability to find the right player.

now it seems we have the only Small Time Charlies from a land of Big Time Charlies

If by "big time charlies" you mean cheaters and criminals, then fuck it... I would prefer to be a small time Charlie. Sorry

#LFCfamily

Yep attack the fanbase. Wonderful. Here's a tip - how about finding grassroots mechanisms to restore the fanbase back to what it was. Appreciate how big the fanbase is, and figure out ways to make people coming to the game get up to speed with what it takes to participate. Believe it or not... a lot of these people would give nothing more to be indocrinated into being a "true red". If all they get is rejection from the rest of the fanbase though, how the fuck can this happen. #lfcfamily my ass.

Can you imagine if you, as a 10 year old scouser kid, went to your first home game for the team you were beginning to love, but didnt yet know the songs and god forbid wanted a photo as a memory of your experience, and... instead of your fellow reds teaching you the songs and helping make you memories, they fucking abused you. Come on, seriously? How about actually participating in the "#lfcfamily" instead of antagonisng and inciting civil war.

Fucks me
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 04:14:13 am by kcbworth »

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 02:08:54 am »
Would this article have been written if we won our last two league games?



Offline trimore

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 02:16:06 am »

We have the capability of competing for the best for the best signatures because we are one the biggest supported teams in the world.  That simple.

I can't believe people still quote this as the be all, end all. Yes we have a lot of fans which helps us attract players over the likes of Everton and Tottenham. But we don't have the most amount of fans, Real, Barcelona, United, Bayern have more, Arsenal is just about equal and they have been building up revenue streams longer than we have.

And it also doesn't matter how many fans we have when other teams have fans that pump billions of dollars into their clubs. Man City, Chelsea, and PSG only needed the single fans to make a difference. Yes our owners could sell to some "theoretical fan" and have them pump that kind of money through shell companies and other FFP loopholes. But there are all sorts of obvious problems related to that.

Sometimes we have really good players that want to play for us like Coutinho or Sturridge, sometimes we don't, that's life.   
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2015, 02:16:39 am »
Would this article have been written if we won our last two league games?

Or if we'd drawn against Chelsea + won against Crystal Palace last season

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2015, 02:17:24 am »
I can't believe people still quote this as the be all, end all. Yes we have a lot of fans which helps us attract players over the likes of Everton and Tottenham. But we don't have the most amount of fans, Real, Barcelona, United, Bayern have more, Arsenal is just about equal and they have been building up revenue streams longer than we have.

And it also doesn't matter how many fans we have when other teams have fans that pump billions of dollars into their clubs. Man City, Chelsea, and PSG only needed the single fans to make a difference. Yes our owners could sell to some "theoretical fan" and have them pump that kind of money through shell companies and other FFP loopholes. But there are all sorts of obvious problems related to that.

Sometimes we have really good players that want to play for us like Coutinho or Sturridge, sometimes we don't, that's life.   

Very much doubt Bayern or Arsenal have anywhere near as many fans as us actually

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2015, 02:26:03 am »
And how pray tell are arsenal building up revenue streams.....with 59k bums on seats.  Arsenal that had an average attendance of 38k at highbury.  Spurs and west ham with similar attendances at their own grounds hoping to move into a stadium double their average capacity.

We've being talking about increasing capacity before arsenal and are still waiting and they've moved, got a sponsorship naming rights, paid off the stadium and will begin reaping the rewards....still, woo, we've got a spade in the ground.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2015, 02:31:20 am »
looks in tempted to comment but I must resist ! ;D
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Livo.85

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2015, 02:33:02 am »
On the re-sale point. Luis Alberto & Aspas are evidence of that strategy. However Chelsea are doing it to the extreme. No one is criticizing them for it.
The article is extremely poor. Like our transfer window. The fact is FSG have made efforts to resign all our best talent. Increase income to compete. Invested top talent in the youth team. FSG are playing the long game, while the author of the article is having a tantrum screaming "I want it now"!
Support the team & the club & accept the process of building the club back to where it belongs will take time.
There will be & has been stumbles both on & off the field but that's life. Be patient.

Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2015, 02:34:17 am »
Very much doubt Bayern or Arsenal have anywhere near as many fans as us actually
If anything Arsenal fans over here are a pretty loyal bunch - there may only be 3 of them amongst 20 40 Mancs and 8 20 Liverpool fans but there will always be 3 of them ten years from now.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 02:38:33 am by Ken-Obi »
Someone should do the right thing - go back in time to 1992 and destroy the codes to Championship Manager before it is ever released