Author Topic: Lionel Messi  (Read 922955 times)

Offline Samie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7240 on: April 24, 2017, 09:01:44 pm »
When Messi takes a nothing team to 2 League titles and a European trophy in the space of 4 years come back to me.  Heck Even Cristiano has proved it at another team.

Offline Klippity Klopp

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7241 on: April 24, 2017, 09:05:39 pm »
What Maradona did at Napoli was pretty special though.  It wasn't just one World Cup where he dragged a team to success.

Not that I am saying Maradona is better, I'd rather just appreciate both of them and don't think the eras can be compared really.

Offline ElCapo

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7242 on: April 24, 2017, 09:05:50 pm »
The only argument more tedious than Messi vs Cristiano is Messi vs Diego.

Let's just enjoy the genius that is Leo without extrapolating into a different era.


Offline Hazell

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7243 on: April 24, 2017, 09:10:35 pm »
Well, not really.

I think the hype train tends to start pretty early for a lot of the top players. Fat Ronaldo.. Neymar.. Maradona, Pele.

Yeah, the hype train does start early for some but I don't think either Ronaldo or Neymar were being called one of the best of all time at 22. Certainly not Cristiano Ronaldo. By the way, it just shows how brilliant Messi was at 22 that he was already classed as an all time great when he was only a quarter of the way through his career.

I think the difference with Messi is, at the age of 22 he was already one of the world's best players, and then over the course of his career he actually continued to deliver, week in week out for such a ridiculously long time. With so many other players, they basically fell over at one point or another, either because of injury, lifestyle or poor career choices. Not Messi. He's just smashed it out again and again. This is the 8th season in a row he's crossed the 40 goal mark in all competitions. That is mental.

Don't disagree with that. He was incredible and all time great at 22 but he got better and has consistently been at that ridiculous level, give or take, since. We won't see another like him for a long while.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7244 on: April 24, 2017, 09:12:01 pm »
The greatest.
They have life in them, they have humour, they're arrogant, they're cocky and they're proud. And that's what I want my team to be.

Offline trimore

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7245 on: April 24, 2017, 10:01:42 pm »

As an aside, it makes for fascinating reading some of the mental gymnastics you Messi obsessives are coming up with justify him not yet turning up to a big international tournament. Seriously fascinating.

I'll take mental gymnastics on genuinely complicated matters over whatever the hell "cahoonas" is supposed to quantify? LOL. The argument is against two human beings, not against two sports cliches and caricatures.
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Offline ggcc14

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7246 on: April 24, 2017, 10:07:22 pm »
Comfortable GOAT
I´ll say something that might surprise you. Real life is different to computer games.
I think Nadal is brilliant. One of the top 10 ever.

Offline IgorBobbins

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7247 on: April 24, 2017, 11:38:30 pm »
Comfortable GOAT
Sounds like a movie Effes would download onto his laptop

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7248 on: April 24, 2017, 11:46:28 pm »
There's no argument any more, it's mad people actually compare him to Maradona I thought people stopped doing that years ago. He's head and shoulders above him, and he's without doubt the most gifted footballer ever. He's scored 500 goals for the Barcelona first team what the f**k are people on about?!  :wave

People often mention his goals, but I've not seen a better passer of the ball up to 20 yards, he's just incredible. I remember a hat-trick of assists he got a few years ago in the cup, I'm trying to find them online it was outrageous!

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7249 on: April 25, 2017, 12:04:39 am »
There's no argument any more, it's mad people actually compare him to Maradona I thought people stopped doing that years ago. He's head and shoulders above him, and he's without doubt the most gifted footballer ever. He's scored 500 goals for the Barcelona first team what the f**k are people on about?!  :wave

People often mention his goals, but I've not seen a better passer of the ball up to 20 yards, he's just incredible. I remember a hat-trick of assists he got a few years ago in the cup, I'm trying to find them online it was outrageous!

https://youtu.be/2VBKewj9Vlc

?

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7250 on: April 25, 2017, 12:16:06 am »
https://youtu.be/2VBKewj9Vlc

?

That's it, was for a Tello hat trick! Outrageous stuff from him. Leads the all time La Liga assists with 112 as well.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7251 on: April 25, 2017, 12:20:40 am »
Watching him score 4 goals live in person was the most amazing non-Liverpool football thing i've witnessed. The way he moves and shifts the ball is incredible. The only player i've seen that even has genius 1/10th of his level is Suarez.

Ronaldo is an incredible athlete and one of the greatest ever, but Messi is #1 regardless of how many farmers Pele scored past
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7252 on: April 25, 2017, 01:55:51 am »
It is softer, I don't think that is even debatable really.

That is not taking anything away from Messi.

It's also way faster, far more athletic and in every way a greater challenge physically and mentally.
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Offline Johnny B. Goode

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7253 on: April 25, 2017, 02:05:33 am »
I get that using stats might be useful to point out nuances about players' styles and counter a bit the natural biases we have.

But there's no 'Messi vs Ronaldo' debate. Messi is the far superior footballer, the more talented player by fucking miles. I don't need stats, rationalisations or whatever arbitrary standard people might set. I have eyes. I watch football, and I've been fortunate enough to see enough of Messi. If there are any facts that don't back him up, worse for the facts. Messi finds absolutely no competition in today's football.

(That being said I wish people would refrain from 'best ever' claims. We haven't even seen half the players that could have a claim for being the best ever.)


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Offline Anfield89

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7254 on: April 25, 2017, 06:30:06 am »
When Messi takes a nothing team to 2 League titles and a European trophy in the space of 4 years come back to me.  Heck Even Cristiano has proved it at another team.

Napoli broke the world record transfer fee after having a bad season they weren't a nothing team. Milan got screwed over for Napolis second title win.

Messi has done it for a longer period and blown Maradonas goal stats away. Club and country.

Offline Haemoglobin

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7255 on: April 25, 2017, 06:50:40 am »
(That being said I wish people would refrain from 'best ever' claims. We haven't even seen half the players that could have a claim for being the best ever.)
I'm afraid if the evidence is purely anecdotal, they have less of a claim.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7256 on: April 25, 2017, 08:12:31 am »
I'm afraid if the evidence is purely anecdotal, they have less of a claim.

I'm pretty sure statistically, Messi's achievements would stand up to any era.

I find it funny that people are happy to detract from Messi's achievements at Barca by saying he's had a great team around him, when Barca might well not have won half of what they did over the course of Messi's career without him. It cuts both ways.

Also, plenty of his attacking contemporaries considered to be some of the best of the age - Alexis, Suarez, Ibrahimovic, Henry, Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Villa had more or less similar or the same players around them, and none of them were close to hitting the heights Messi has.

And for all the criticisms of his international record, the guy has 58 international goals in 117 matches, which is just about a 1:2 ratio. Only by his own ridiculous standards are those stats considered inadequate.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7257 on: April 25, 2017, 09:02:33 am »
Napoli broke the world record transfer fee after having a bad season they weren't a nothing team. Milan got screwed over for Napolis second title win.

Messi has done it for a longer period and blown Maradonas goal stats away. Club and country.

Not when it matters he doesn't. 7 World Cup knock out appearances (6 starts 1 sub) 0 Goals. Zero.

Obviously it's all Higuains fault though, or the fact that he had a bad manager in two of those knock out games in 2010, etc, etc...

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7258 on: April 25, 2017, 09:35:00 am »
The champions league is of a higher standard to international football but you're going to use 7 international games to judge him?

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7259 on: April 25, 2017, 09:35:34 am »
Obviously it's all Higuains fault though, or the fact that he had a bad manager in two of those knock out games in 2010, etc, etc...

Well it is, a bit... especially when its only over a few game spread.

Offline Anfield89

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7260 on: April 25, 2017, 09:43:19 am »
Not when it matters he doesn't. 7 World Cup knock out appearances (6 starts 1 sub) 0 Goals. Zero.

Obviously it's all Higuains fault though, or the fact that he had a bad manager in two of those knock out games in 2010, etc, etc...

What's harder winning the league or winning a cup?

He has a 1 in 2 goal record for Argentina, Maradona managed 1in3.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7261 on: April 25, 2017, 09:44:50 am »
The Champions League is far harder to win than the World Cup in my opinion.

Well obviously this isn't true, especially in regards to Messi is it?

Or Ronaldo(Portugese one) is it?

Offline Coolie High

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7262 on: April 25, 2017, 09:46:04 am »
Watching him score 4 goals live in person was the most amazing non-Liverpool football thing i've witnessed. The way he moves and shifts the ball is incredible. The only player i've seen that even has genius 1/10th of his level is Suarez.

Ronaldo is an incredible athlete and one of the greatest ever, but Messi is #1 regardless of how many farmers Pele scored past

You mean the farmers in the world cup?

Or the farmers who Messi plays against in La Liga?

Offline Coolie High

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7263 on: April 25, 2017, 09:47:39 am »
The champions league is of a higher standard to international football but you're going to use 7 international games to judge him?

Definitely not easier to win though, its only natural that CL may be of a higher standard but the circumstances that surrounds international football still makes it harder to win, you could ask Messi this himself.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7264 on: April 25, 2017, 09:49:49 am »
What's harder winning the league or winning a cup?

He has a 1 in 2 goal record for Argentina, Maradona managed 1in3.

Does that matter?

Not really, Maradona was undoubtedly the better international footballer,

Whats harder? Both, its a silly question, clubs like Arsenal haven't won the CL cup in their history but have won the English first division title or Premier League many times, go figure, our 27 years of no league pales in significance to Arsenal or Spurs wait for a CL.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7265 on: April 25, 2017, 09:55:56 am »
The champions league is of a higher standard to international football but you're going to use 7 international games to judge him?

If Champions League is so much harder, how come he's got a 9 in 10 goal ratio in CL but a 0 in 7 ratio at World Cup knock outs?

Well it is, a bit... especially when its only over a few game spread.

How many World Cup knock out games does he need before he gets his first goal?? Seven is a lot. You'd expect a man who's got a 5 in 6 record across his entire club career to also score a few in the highest pressure matches he'll ever play in. All the other greats managed to.

What's harder winning the league or winning a cup?

Depends, is it a league where your third choice keeper probably costs more than 18 out of the 19 teams you're up against? Or are we talking probably the highest quality league in the history of football (say, for example, Serie A in the late 80s/early 90s)?

He has a 1 in 2 goal record for Argentina, Maradona managed 1in3.

No one judges the greats in friendlies or qualifiers. Messi's 0 for 7 in the games the greats are judged in.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 09:57:28 am by Xabi Gerrard »

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7266 on: April 25, 2017, 10:02:08 am »
Well obviously this isn't true, especially in regards to Messi is it?

Or Ronaldo(Portugese one) is it?

If we judge the World Cup and Champions League on their merits without the 4 year gap the Champions League is clearly a better tournament. The standard of football is far higher and the coaching is a lot better. The World Cup is only hard to win because you don't get many chances at it.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7267 on: April 25, 2017, 10:10:33 am »
If we judge the World Cup and Champions League on their merits without the 4 year gap the Champions League is clearly a better tournament. The standard of football is far higher and the coaching is a lot better. The World Cup is only hard to win because you don't get many chances at it.

The standard is higher, because clubs get to buy players from everywhere, train everyday, and in Messis case he is at a club which he's been at from a youth whos ideologies and principles have made them play in a way best suited to his abilities, and himself likewise. 

As opposed to your country, which doesn't get to purchase players, players don't play with each other day in day out, or have even grown up in the same footballing system for the most part(best South American prospects are poached from an early age) and you don't have a coach like Guardiola or Rijkaard who literally had a strong part of their football education in the same circumstances as Messi, all in all this makes the world cup harder to win, its not just the every 4 years thing, its the unfamiliarity and the unpredictability of international football that makes it so, for Messi it was always going to be easier for him to win the CL numerous times, than him to even win the World cup once, i don't think this is an argument really.

Offline Klippity Klopp

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7268 on: April 25, 2017, 11:16:40 am »
It's also way faster, far more athletic and in every way a greater challenge physically and mentally.

The game is faster now, certainly.

The balls are different, the rules are different, the physicality is different.

I think it is hard to compare, which is why I feel it is too hard to call who is GOAT.

But anyone who says Messi is the best or Maradona is the best - I find it hard to argue with them as they were both immense in different ways, in different eras.

Offline redk84

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7269 on: April 25, 2017, 03:59:40 pm »
The standard is higher, because clubs get to buy players from everywhere, train everyday, and in Messis case he is at a club which he's been at from a youth whos ideologies and principles have made them play in a way best suited to his abilities, and himself likewise. 

As opposed to your country, which doesn't get to purchase players, players don't play with each other day in day out, or have even grown up in the same footballing system for the most part(best South American prospects are poached from an early age) and you don't have a coach like Guardiola or Rijkaard who literally had a strong part of their football education in the same circumstances as Messi, all in all this makes the world cup harder to win, its not just the every 4 years thing, its the unfamiliarity and the unpredictability of international football that makes it so, for Messi it was always going to be easier for him to win the CL numerous times, than him to even win the World cup once, i don't think this is an argument really.

doesn't this make it less to do with skillset than it has to do with chance  ???

And yes Messi was in the right club at the right time....but the fact he above anyone is consistantly considered the best (by a lot) not just over maradonna but Zizu, iniesta, Pele etc. says alot

one of those debates that comes down to personal opinion for sure.

For me, he's the best player ever
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7270 on: April 25, 2017, 04:09:36 pm »
Are there any who saw Maradona at his peak (and were older than 14/15) and would rate Messi over him?

Sporting nostalgia is a proven phenomenon, but I'd be interested to know if Messi can overrule that in people.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7271 on: April 25, 2017, 11:25:14 pm »

a 40 minute video of all of Messi's 500 competitive goals for Barcelona...

(up to and including the two goals he scored in the 3-2 away win vs Real Madrid on Sunday 23rd April)


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Z_fA3R4FiE?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/-Z_fA3R4FiE?fs=1</a>



« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 11:26:48 pm by oojason »
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Offline trimore

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7272 on: April 26, 2017, 12:09:34 am »

No one judges the greats in friendlies or qualifiers. Messi's 0 for 7 in the games the greats are judged in.

You have to take into account the era he is playing in.

To start, Messi is not a pure midfielder so he cannot control a game like Zidane did in 06 against Brazil. He will see the ball, but Biglia, Benega, Mascherano and Di Maria will get more than there fair share as well. He plays as a forward after a long season (a player who plays more games than anyone) with almost 2-5 players permanatly glued to him throughout the game, like a lot of other star forwards in knock-out stages.

Which leads to my next question, when was the last time a group of star forwards completely dominated any entire international tournament from start to finish? 2002 World Cup, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Dinho and 2004 Copa America with Fabiano and Adriano (a last gasp from a bygone era). Since? Nothing in any Copa America, Euro, or World Cup. There is absolutely a delineation, a shift, pre-2002 and post-2002. Closest is Torres and Villa in 08 but they still needed help. Before 02 Pele, Garrincha, Platini, Van Basten, Rossi, Maradona & Valdano, Romario & Bebeto, Henery & Trezeguet were dominating year after year. Now nothing for going on 16 years. It just doesn't happen anymore.

Euro 2004 happened, Instanbul happened, Porto happened. Mourinho and Rafa shifting the popular trends in tactics. Low block defending, focused on maximizing athletic abilities, tall centerbacks and beastly defensive midfielders, dark arts became the norm. And now over a dozen teams in Europe, South America and Africa have the formula. Of course a system can be created to break them down but not really for national teams due to lack of time.

If you see the teams that make the final or win these tournaments a pattern becomes clear. No forward dominates all those knockout games, depth is king. Every single one of them needed a goal from a player who isn't a forward who scores regularly for their club. Think goals from Puyol, Hummels, Álvaro Pereira, Alba, Xavi, Pirlo Silva, Alonso, Schweinsteiger, Payet, Grosso, Materazzi, Van Bronckhorst, Isla, Vidal Sneijder, Eder, Zidane, Iniesta etc. Knockout stage or difficult group games in June and July are too mentally exhaustive these days for ANY forward across the globe who scored regular club goals (18+) to take over and dominate every game. It's too scrappy where physical strength and unpredictably trumps pure skill and speed. Where mentally exhausted forwards are drained even further. And Argentina themselves do not score enough of those goals to actually win.

Now we get to the issue of Messi himself. Other than a game against Mexico, all of those knock-out games were against tight, discplined physically strong defenses. Messi is a freak footballer, but he's not a freak athlete. He is fast but not clearly faster than everyone else and certainly not stronger. Would a freak athlete footballer like Ronaldo do better in this era? There have been other more stronger and athletic strikers during this time. Gerrard, Rooney, Drogba, Suarez, he who fannies about and dives around, Klose, Pogba were all shutdown, or at least didn't dominate, at this stage for one reason or another when they faced an atheltic and discplined defence. Ronaldo and Dinho themselves couldn't beat France in 06. This is with all the modern training and diet forwards get and the preferential treatment from refs. The exception that sticks in my mind is Balo against a strong Germany in Euro 2012, but there are one-offs for everything. Thus Messi not being an incredible athlete isn't really a huge issue. And of course if the likes of Suarez can get shut-down than I don't think it's a mental issue either. 

TL:DR, I don't think there is a forward in the history of the game that would dominate those games in this era based on your criteria. The defenders across multiple teams are too athletic and well trained, the forwards can't build chemistry and they are at the end of longer, difficult seasons. Goalies are too strong. Defense is easier to improvise. And thus scrappy, unexpected goals from midfielders, defenders and back-up strikers are the norm. Messi is none of those things.

He's not a master of scrappy goals. But those people don't win the majority of games like he does. Scrappy goalscorers are going to miss most of the time and can be out-scrapped by anyone at any given time. Headed goals, freekicks and screamers from midfield simply aren't as reliable except at the very end of international tournaments. But they don't get to knockout stages without players like Messi. 
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7273 on: April 26, 2017, 12:53:53 am »


Excellent post with well-made points. Messi's athleticism seems to be underrated though. He's ridiculously fast and strong. If he wasn't as good on the ball as he is, people would be talking him up for his pace and strength. In that sense, though he's not the fastest player in the world, he would probably find himself among the fastest anyway.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7274 on: April 26, 2017, 01:01:45 am »
Been reading this thread and I have nothing to add other than I hate it when people say "Fat Ronaldo" as if that's the best way to describe him.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

Hey Claus, fuck off.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7275 on: April 26, 2017, 01:31:42 pm »


That's a well written post mate but massively flawed.

- You're basically saying that international teams are too well organised for a forward to thrive these days, but I keep on reading on here about how much better CL teams are organised than World Cup teams, which I agree with. So if Messi can do it against the better organised CL teams, why isn't he doing it against the World Cup teams?

- You're over-egging it massively suggesting he ever has 5 men "permentantly glued to him" during world cup knockouts - he doesn't, not even close.

- You say "Knockout stage or difficult group games in June and July are too mentally exhaustive these days for ANY forward across the globe who scored regular club goals (18+) to take over and dominate every game." - I take it you missed Griezmann doing the business with this 5 knock out goals and all round brilliant performances last summer?


This is what I mentioned early about people doing crazy mental gymanstics to explain away Messi's massive drop in performance levels in the highest pressure games (WC knock outs). I take it you've seen him play for Barcelona, right? Time and time and time again he'll receive the ball in areas where it looks unlikely, even impossible, to score in. Yet he keeps on doing it, over and over again. He finds himself in those same situations for Argentina in knock outs too. But he just doesn't pull of the impossible in these situations like we know he can when he's playing against better organised opposition in lower pressure games for Barca. That isn't because of systems, that isn't because of Higuain, that isn't because Maradona was his manager for 2 of the 7 games, or whatever desperate excuse his biggest fans come up with.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7276 on: April 26, 2017, 01:48:36 pm »
But he just doesn't pull of the impossible in these situations like we know he can when he's playing against better organised opposition in lower pressure games for Barca.

Are you saying that playing for Argentina against, say, Switzerland (like when Messi played against them in 2014, knock out, won and was MOTM) is more pressured than playing for Barca against Real Madrid in the Bernabeu (like Messi did the other night, again MOTM)?

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7277 on: April 26, 2017, 01:54:20 pm »
Are you saying that playing for Argentina against, say, Switzerland (like when Messi played against them in 2014, knock out, won and was MOTM) is more pressured than playing for Barca against Real Madrid in the Bernabeu (like Messi did the other night, again MOTM)?

For a proud Argentine like Messi, yep, definitely, representing his country in the World Cup knock outs would be a lot more pressured than playing for his club in a league game against an opposition he's played dozens of times and has absolutely nothing to prove against them. I take it you don't know much about Argentine society and how much representing the country means to their footballers? The albiceleste shirt weighs heavy. Very heavy.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7278 on: April 26, 2017, 02:23:19 pm »
I don't take international football into account too much when weighing up players, ultimately the player has no control over what team mates he has, the manager, the playing style.

At club level they can find a club that suits their style and talent
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7279 on: April 26, 2017, 02:40:09 pm »
For a proud Argentine like Messi, yep, definitely, representing his country in the World Cup knock outs would be a lot more pressured than playing for his club in a league game against an opposition he's played dozens of times and has absolutely nothing to prove against them. I take it you don't know much about Argentine society and how much representing the country means to their footballers? The albiceleste shirt weighs heavy. Very heavy.
How patronizing.

Messi won the golden ball at the last World cup (probably should have been James but his team were knocked out at the quarter final stage so not clear cut). This idea that Messi hasn't performed at international level is just a nonsense. The Argentina side at the last World cup outside of Messi, Di Maria and Mascherano was average. Messi, absolutely drained from another season where he played over 60 games and clearly had little left in the tank dragged Argentina to the final by using what little energy he had left in the tank in the appropriate moments and making decisive contributions time and time again. He was a Higuain one on one miss away from leading an unbalanced and out of form Argentina team to their first World cup in nearly 30 years. A Higuain missed chance away from a Copa America title and a penalty shootout loss in the final from another.

People who have watched sport at any level and particularly football know how games are decided on small details, luck and chance. Re-run the finals Messi has been involved in for Argentina and you get a different outcome, but alas, it is what it is.

Messi has been performing at the top level for well over a decade now, has won multiple European cups and league titles whilst scoring more goals in a calendar year than anyone else in history. The four teams he's scored most goals against are Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla.

He's the best dribbler, goalscorer and passer in world football. The best poacher, winger and playmaker rolled into one utterly unique genius of a player. The like of which we have never or will ever see again.

Enjoy him while you can.
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.