Author Topic: The Impossible Job  (Read 23936 times)

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The Impossible Job
« on: January 31, 2008, 02:08:19 pm »
To my mind, managing Liverpool is currently –– by far and away –- the most difficult job in English football. It’s become an impossible mission.

Two decades without the league title is an enormous weight bearing down on whoever has to manage the team. It has become a millstone the size of the moon, and that was the case even before Benítez arrived.

It has got to the stage where even Champions League Finals are seen as “nothing”, in this almighty desire for the title at all costs, and nothing else. Believe me, I keep seeing fans dismiss Champions League Finals like it was the Carling Cup being discussed. When did we get so obnoxious, spoilt and greedy?

And now there’s a new sense of impatience surrounding the club that emanated from within, with news that Benítez’s job was under threat in November, when the side were still in a good league position but struggling in the Champions League; a threat that only recently surfaced to the public, since when things have got dramatically worse on the pitch. Coincidence?

It’s no wonder the team appear to be in meltdown right now. A self-fulfilling prophecy was put in place. And even if all parties have genuinely cleared the air between them, following desperate summit meetings, which may well have been the case (to some degree at least), the air itself remains noxious in the eyes of those viewing from the outside.

When has impatience ever been a virtue in football? Was it a virtue when Ferguson took United to 11th, 2nd, 11th and 13th in his first four seasons? Or 7th in his 5th? If memory serves, United’s board stayed strong, stayed patient.

Or what about when Arsenal won nothing between 1998 and 2002? I recall disgruntled Gooners on 606 circa 2000/2001, saying Wenger had taken them as far as he could. Did David Dein and co. get impatient? Did they speak to some recently retired international with no club management experience, and make it public?

Or what about when Everton finished 11th (complete with double European humiliation) in 2005/06, a year after the heady high of 4th? Or 17th in 2003/04, inches from relegation, a year after an impressive 7th? Did they panic?

It shames me to say it, but, Tescos aside, Everton should be proud of the way they’ve run their club in recent years. And they’re reaping the rewards.

That doesn’t mean it won’t get harder for the Toffees as expectations rise, and should they have to work out how to play distracting, high-profile Champions League games midweek and have enough left for weekend league fixtures (and the Uefa Cup is not the same, believe me). But they’re going about building in the right way. The sensible way. They’ve giving Moyes the best chance of succeeding, relatively speaking. (But of course, no-one expects a league title in a million years, even though their last one was only three years prior to the Reds’.)

Liverpool have the 3rd-most expensive squad in the league, but way behind the two most expensive ones. And Benítez has been in the job the 3rd-longest of the ‘big four’, but Ferguson and Wenger have an incredible 34 years in charge between them. As a result, no-one dares to tell them what to do. And as both Ferguson and Wenger recently said, that’s the way it has to be.

Based purely on money spent (cost of the current squad at the manager’s disposal, not gross spend or net spend), the league table should look like this:

     1 Chelsea
     2 Man United
     3 Liverpool
     4 Arsenal

What about the league table when based on each club’s wealth, and their turnover?

     1 Chelsea (based on Abramovich’s wealth, not turnover)
     2 Manchester United
     3 Arsenal
     4 Liverpool

Linked to the cost of the squad, but with the price of players not being a fail-safe barometer of their ability, is the quality of the squad. This is purely subjective, and as such, I’m presenting only my opinion. Plus, you also have a situation where Chelsea have the biggest squad in terms of depth, but Manchester United have the best XI, suggesting both might be equal overall.

     1= Chelsea
     1= Manchester United
     3= Arsenal
     3= Liverpool

How about a league table based on managerial talent? Based on all achievements in the game of football since the turn of the millennium, I would suggest the following:

     1= Arsenal
     1= Manchester United
     1= Liverpool

So, joint first for Liverpool, with Benítez’s miracles in Valencia and Istanbul proving his quality as a manager beyond doubt, and putting his overall achievements since 2000 on a par with the others. But –– crucially –– Wenger and Ferguson would rank more highly based on Premier League achievements; although, it has to be noted, that Ferguson did far, far, far worse in his first four seasons in the league at United.

Based on time the manager has spent in the job –– another well-known and valuable barometer to judging success (in that it takes many years to shape a club from top to bottom, particularly when it comes to bringing through young players) –– the league table should look like this:

     1 Manchester United
     2 Arsenal
     3 Everton
     4 Liverpool

Also related to time in the job is stability: the working environment presented to the manager by his relationship with the power brokers, as well as the level of certainty/uncertainty surrounding his position (either real, or perceived through the media, who will do whatever they can to exacerbate the situation to improve their sales/ratings). With this in mind, the league would look something like this:

     1= Manchester United
     1= Arsenal
     3 Everton
     4= Chelsea
     4= Spurs
     4= Newcastle
     4= Aston Villa
     4= Manchester City
     . . .
     20 Liverpool (replacing Newcastle)

Whatever the reasons, and however true or not, Benítez’s position appears to be the least secure and stable in the league, now that Sam Allardyce and Martin Jol have been sacked. Rafa is under the most pressure.

The thing Liverpool desperately need is a point of difference, that will raise them above their rivals. And from these, is there one? No. Chelsea have theirs: the most money. United have theirs: the most experienced manager. Arsenal have theirs: their unprecedented youth procurement scheme. Liverpool’s strongest point is having a top-class manager, but then so too do its rivals. The youth scheme could rival Arsenal’s down the line, but it’s a case of playing serious catch-up. But even if the Reds replaced Rafa, who is unquestionably a better manager than Ferguson and Wenger? Can Liverpool ever have the most money? No. The most trusted manager? No.

So then –– with all I’ve discussed, on what criteria should Liverpool be 1st?

History. And history alone.

But that’s almost ancient history now; are we still living in the past? And does history win you trophies? Ask Blackpool, Leeds, Nottingham Forest. Recent history –– the last 10-15 years, which is more relevant in many ways –– again suggests that 3rd or 4th is the best Liverpool can hope for.

Indeed, Souness lowered the bar in the early ‘90s, finishing 6th, 6th and 8th and flunking out early in almost every cup, while Houllier managed to rise to 2nd for one season, but fall as low as 5th and 7th. Five clubs have won the league since Liverpool last did, and only one of those is new to the list since Benítez arrived: megabucks Chelsea. Crucially, indeed, super-crucially, Arsenal and Manchester United, as clubs, had grown highly used to winning league titles by the time Rafa pitched up.

And if you look at all the league tables I have produced –– some subjective, but most not –– and combine them for an average position, then 4th place is about the best Liverpool can realistically expect in the current climate, and in the foreseeable future.

I’m not trying to defend Benítez for the sake of it, or saying that he is 100% correct in everything he ever does, and that I agree with all of his decisions, merely trying to put into context the task he faces.

I honestly can’t accurately judge the side or the tactics right now, because there is this big black cloud hanging over the club, obfuscating matters. Part of that stems back to the falling out with Pako Ayestaran in September, which may have been Rafa’s fault to some (unmeasurable) degree, and which, for me, was the first unsettling moment of the season. But then came what I can only politely describe as the ‘shitstorm’, that has distorted any clear analysis.

Yes, Kuyt is having a stinker of a season, and yes, Crouch, on paper ‘deserves’ more playing time; but that would mean two spearhead strikers, something no other top club deploys –– each has at least one player working the space between the lines (United have two, in Rooney and Tevez!). And yes, Babel looks suited to the role in theory, but he’s still a kid and still new to England; so it’s not like Rafa is ignoring an obvious, fail-safe immediate solution.

Yes, it may be the manager’s fault that he doesn’t yet have a second-striker who is good enough to link play between the midfield and also score goals. But then again, Kuyt looked good enough in the role last season, and at the start of this. There are issues in the wide areas (although the two new wide men share 17 goals this season, despite not being regulars), but it’s also an area where Benítez was thwarted in the market, with Simao and Alves too expensive and Malouda opting for Chelsea.

Meanwhile you have the unpalatable sight of Gerrard showing signs of dissent with the manager’s decisions as if he’s Alan Shearer, and the previously criticism-free Carragher conceding a clutch of penalties already this season, and frankly lucky it’s not been more. Defending set-pieces, which was immaculate for nearly two years, has become a comedy of errors again. Some of this may be down to the manager, but the players need to stand up and be counted, too.

You can argue such points, and suggest Benítez isn’t helping himself at times,  and you may be right, but how can you judge his performances and decisions as if they exist in a vacuum? There is the context to consider.

Which Liverpool manager has ever had to work in such difficult circumstances? Or anything remotely as close? Kenny Dalglish had the very different pressures of Hillsborough to contend with, but that took its toll on him and his team, as his decisions seemed to become less easily understandable. But has the board ever fallen out with the manager, and the fans been up in arms and protesting about the owners? I can’t recall a Liverpool manager facing such an unsettling situation.

Examples of managers failing after being undermined are everywhere. Martin Jol was instantly undermined at the start of the season when it became known the club wanted Juande Ramos instead, so failure became a self-fulfilling prophecy; results stayed well below what Jol was previously getting, because every game was likely to be his last.

The same happened at Chelsea when Mourinho, having landed two league titles, had his job description unofficially changed by Abramovich at the start of Year 3, to be about finding a place for his the owner’s Shevchenko in the team and asking them to play pretty triangles, while, in the reverse of Liverpool, the league became less important than the European Cup.

Short of a miracle, it is dawning on me that a league title has become an impossibility. It’s why we are now seen as a cup team –– because that is the most realistic avenue open to any Liverpool manager.

The main hope for a league title in the future relates to what is coming through the ranks, and if Rafa, or any subsequent manager, can make the most of a crop of promising kids sourced in the last two-three years, in the way Wenger has at Arsenal (albeit after a few seasons of relative mediocrity, winning fewer trophies than Liverpool as they developed, and finishing below the Reds for two seasons running.)

The reserves –– a breeding ground for Benítez’s young buys –– are doing very well. The youth team hasn’t lost an FA Youth Cup game in three seasons since Rafa started supplementing it with talented, scouted players, and have just beaten a more experienced and lauded Arsenal side. Quality is bubbling below the surface, and the first team has a superb (and still relatively young) spine.

But confidence has been lost –– by, it seems, pretty much everyone at the club: the players (in themselves, and possibly the board and the manager); the manager (in the owners, and possibly himself), and the fans (in just about everything connected with the club). Crucially, do the players have confidence that the board has confidence in Rafa?

If it ends up that Benítez has to be sacked, it is because the situation at Liverpool has become too messy to make it a stable working environment –– for him at least. That wouldn’t make immediately replacing him the correct or decent thing to do, because it’s not necessarily his fault that the club is in apparent turmoil, even if he did first make the tensions public. 

Maybe someone else can come in and do a better job at this point in time, and for a few months, but the problem is that Tom Hicks has hinted with his actions over Jurgen Klinsmann that he’s quick on the draw with regard to replacing managers; if that is true, Liverpool will be in danger of becoming like Newcastle (with their myriad farces of the last decade, where they would chop and change from ruthless disciplinarians to kindly men who “understand the club”, all to equal levels of mediocrity), unless the American duo have learned their lesson. And have they? Who knows...

But I now see no easy solution to this quest for the holy grail. Because, by next season, Liverpool will still have, at best, the 3rd-most expensive and 3rd-most talented squad in the league, and, at best, the 4th-most experienced manager in his current role. And with the club approaching 20 years without the title, the manager, whoever he is, will have the hardest job in the land.

And even if Tom Hicks was to marry Benítez and the pair adopt children together, the media would stir and stir, so that I can’t see Benítez ever being secure enough in his job to make it work. He might well still be the 20th-most secure manager in the Premier League.

None of this means I want him replaced (far from it), but right now I see him, and the club itself, caught between a rock and a hard place. It seems like a vicious circle.

All we can do now, as the manager undertakes his increasingly impossible job, is to dream the impossible dream, whatever the fuck that might be.

© Paul Tomkins 2008

www.paultomkins.com

Offline the brad

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 03:30:48 pm »
excellent article and the only thing that you failed to include has been the loss of agger

Offline Rafas3leggedtable

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 03:33:18 pm »
crikey when you speak like this I guess things must be wrong at our club.

I genuinely, genuinely think (and I know I am in the minority) that we are very close to been on a par with Man Utd and Chelsea in footballing terms. Arsenal have the ability to go up a level and that is why I think they will win the league. But it frustrates me why we arent closer to Chelsea and Man U.

The only hope I cling onto is that it was only 2 or 3 months ago all the talk was about how we had a great team and that no team actually liked coming to Anfield anymore. It had started to feel like we would win at Anfield almost every time again - it was on our travels we looked a bit vulnerable. But yes you are probably right - the shit storm meant that we perhaps lost focus on the pitch and on the terraces and mistakes have crept into our game.

Try not to let it all bring us down fella, we will bounce back from this bad time and with a new signing or two on top of Masch we will be in amongst them next season. We have to be.

That is all we ask - to be challenging. We should be challenging and if we are then that is acceptable. No one team has the divine right to win the league 3 or 4 seasons in a row and I dont think that will ever actually happen again.

Walk on.
The people of Liverpool are workers. This is not a rich town where everyone lives a comfortable life. They work hard for themselves, and this is what we at Liverpool like to do. This is the attitude we must all have.

Offline lurganboy

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2008, 03:56:08 pm »
I'm astonished at that Paul. Not to say that I necessarily disagree with your points. It is just that for all the time I have been reading your stuff, and that's years, you've been unremittingly - and sometimes maddingly - positive. To the point that I've accused you of having rose-tinted spectacles at times.

But the bleak tone of that article underlines just what a mess we find ourselves in. Sad times.

Offline GerrardKopLegend

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2008, 03:56:56 pm »
In the end you pose of great question: Do the players have confidence that the board has confidence in Rafa?

Simply answer is no. It shows up in the play on the pitch, and it continually shows up in the way the whole club carries itself on a daily basis right now. It's making me sick...
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Offline scottishRED

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2008, 04:23:17 pm »
have you stopped writing for the official website now Paul?

good piece btw.  articulates what I had started thinking - that perhaps Rafa needs to go.

Would be interested to get your opinion on the culpability of G&H.  Most fans absolutely hate them.  I don't.  I'm not particularly impressed with them - I think they have been naive and stupid.  But they are not malicious; and if we have to live with them, so be it - but they need to learn some strong lessons from this season.
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Offline amoh

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2008, 05:35:15 pm »
Excellent article

Offline The Cobbler

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2008, 05:38:38 pm »
Reading this makes me so sad as normally PT's articles brighten my day  - We normally go to all games home & away, but because of work commitments, due to the late change of date for the West Ham match, we couldn't go and I was actually quite relieved not to be there - I never thought I'd say that , let alone admit to it , as missing any LFC match is normally agony.

The agony now is watching the team (and the club itself) disintegrating before our eyes - whilst I am grateful that I didn't waste £150+ watching another feeble performance away from home and getting back home at an ungodly hour, I still ache thinking about the awful position we are now in and how bad it could still get

It's easy to blame the Americans (and God knows they should be taken out and booted all the way across the Atlantic) but let's not kid ourselves -  there is clear tension between the big players and the manager and I really don't know how this is going to be sorted - there is a crushing inevitability of a parting of the ways and that is a tragedy for the club, the manager and the fans.

For me the awful truth really hit home watching the first half of the Cup tie v Havant & W, what a pathetic spineless performance against a team that Southport would be disappointed not to beat - did our superstars give a toss - well if they did they kept it well hidden from us....motivation was non-existent and it was painful to see such overt contempt for the supporters

For the first time in 42 years watching Liverpool I was truly ashamed of a team wearing our red shirts and whilst you can point fingers at individuals, whether players or manager or owners, there is a collective failure happening here, which is rapidly getting worse.

The impossible job? - absolutely not - but it is being made an untenable job for the incumbent. Rafa had no bigger fan than me, but this looks like being his final season because he is now stuck between a rock ( the vultures in the media looking for the latest sacrifice) and a hard place (superstars who aren't playing for him and clearly want him out).

What these bloody fools who masquerade as our players don't realise is that if the club doesn't get CL football next season - the downward spiral increases and we will struggle to attract quality players and retain those we allegedly do have....it's more a minimum standard to attain.....fail and you are very vulnerable

Much as it's important for the club to get 4th, you don't exactly get a bus tour of the City for it and it's not something to really celebrate is it - doing what is the accepted minimum  - Houllier got the push and rightly so for the tedium of 2003/04, Rafa is now careering towards the same cliff edge, but being driven by a combination of Hicks, Gerrard/Carragher and his own pig headedness.




Offline row25seat38

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2008, 06:06:40 pm »
For once I agree with something you've got to say. You are right, the Liverpool job is the hardest job in European football and in terms of spending, we should finish 3rd at best each season.

However, your "love in" with the manager completely distorts reality. Even before the problems off the field emerged this season, supporters with any nouse knew there was no chance of us getting close to winning the league. Pissing about with the team at Portsmouth and at home to Birmingham started the rot. Its only got worse since. The players have lost confidence in what the boss is trying to achieve. When United and Arsenal went a few years without the League title, it was still clear they were playing good football, with style and with attacking flair.

Under Benitez we don't have a style or flair, only individual moments of quality from our best players. The silent majority/minority know the team is over cautious and intent on nullifying the opposition rather than attacking first. Our full backs never overlap at pace and we don't dare get in behind teams. At times we are clueless going forward, so predictable that even the poorest teams in the league can take points of us at Anfield.  There are still too many poor players. Benitez has bought many of them and insists on  playing the others he inherited. To think some people on this site argue Kewell should get a new contract. A disgrace to the red shirt. Shankly would have shown that c*nt the door a long time ago. You said this season Voronin looks like a 20 million pound player!? What planet are Liverpool supporters on these days? He bought Kuyt, Benayoun, Arbeloa, Pennant, Crouch, Sissoko etc etc non of them nearly good enough for Liverpool. They were not cheap. Its not necessarily the players though. Its the way we play. Many dread going to Anfield at present. Under Bill Shankly we went 7 or 8 years without a trophy, but back then the crowd were entertained and you still believed we were going places. Thats not the case now.

Don't blame the Americans for the crap were seeing on the pitch. It was poor for much of last season and its only getting worse at present. We've spent loads more than Everton and Villa but were no better. The League does not lie.

I won't call for his head, I won't leave before the end, I go to every home game, support vociferously and I'll never boo the team. But I've watched Liverpool for 30 years and I'll believe what my eyes are telling me and not propaganda, its very poor at present. Great Liverpool teams of the past were not over coached, they went out and expressed themselves. We don't. It doesn't matter how many times people tell me Kuyt, Voronin, Finnan, Arbeloa, Pennant, Benayoun, Risse etc are good, I know they are not. Until people wake up and realise this, then the expectations you talk about will still be ridiculously high.

PS. That fella who thinks were close to Man U and Arsenal? Enough said.

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2008, 06:24:41 pm »
Its tough.

Managers like Blackwell and the other geezer at Brighton never had it so easy on a shoestring budget, firesale players and a tiny fanbase.
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Offline The Nihilists

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 06:25:45 pm »
It doesn't matter how many times people tell me ...Finnan, Arbeloa...Benayoun,... are good, I know they are not.


Wow, you truly are a genius. Not.

Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2008, 06:30:17 pm »
Its tough.

Managers like Blackwell and the other geezer at Brighton never had it so easy on a shoestring budget, firesale players and a tiny fanbase.


What drugs are you smoking now?

Sorry, must have missed what Blackwell and 'that geezer' at Brighton achieved that Liverpool haven't under Rafa. They won the Premiership? Fucking 'ell...
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 06:33:26 pm »

What drugs are you smoking now?

Sorry, must have missed what Blackwell and 'that geezer' at Brighton achieved that Liverpool haven't under Rafa. They won the Premier League? Fucking 'ell...

No its being said that its an impossible job. I digress. Managing on a crap budget, no resources and playing in front of tiny crowds might be a tad harder.

But then i'd expect you to disagree, as Rafa is adored by you.
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Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 06:44:25 pm »
No its being said that its an impossible job. I digress. Managing on a crap budget, no resources and playing in front of tiny crowds might be a tad harder.


A tad harder to do what, exactly? Survive? Well, that's not Rafa's job. But the day Brighton finish above Liverpool in the Premiership, fair play to them.

By contrast to Chelsea, Rafa has a crap budget. By contrast to United, Liverpool play in front of tiny crowds - almost half. If you're going to go down the route of comparing worse off/better off.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 06:47:10 pm »

A tad harder to do what, exactly? Survive? Well, that's not Rafa's job. But the day Brighton finish above Liverpool in the Premier League, fair play to them.

By contrast to Chelsea, Rafa has a crap budget. By contrast to United, Liverpool play in front of tiny crowds - almost half. If you're going to go down the route of comparing worse off/better off.


oh right so that explains why we are behind Villa, Man City and everton then doesnt it?

Excuses for every occasion.
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Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 06:49:03 pm »
oh right so that explains why we are behind Villa, Man City and everton then doesnt it?


What, the league has ended? When?!

Let's wait till May before we accept league tables as concrete, eh?

And remind me, where are Villa, Man City and Everton in the Champions League? Must be favourites to win it, if they're so much better than us as a team on the whole...
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 06:54:13 pm »

What, the league has ended? When?!

Let's wait till May before we accept league tables as concrete, eh?

And remind me, where are Villa, Man City and Everton in the Champions League? Must be favourites to win it, if they're so much better than us as a team on the whole...

Ah so we are going to win the champions league too? Wow.

High expectations for a team that currently cant take a setpiece, cant defend a setpiece, cant keep the ball and can hardly score a goal (except of course if the team is two or more divisions lower).

Yes Inter Milan are bricking it as we speak, just like Villa, City and Everton are.

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Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 06:57:44 pm »
Ah so we are going to win the champions league too? Wow.

High expectations for a team that currently cant take a setpiece, cant defend a setpiece, cant keep the ball and can hardly score a goal (except of course if the team is two or more divisions lower).

Yes Inter Milan are bricking it as we speak, just like Villa, City and Everton are.



I won't use any insults, Mr Mullet, as I'll save you the time of looking them up in the dictionary.

I'm sure Chelsea, Juve and Milan were bricking it, too, in 2004/05, when we were doing worse in the league than now. And, remind me, did we not get to the final last year, too?

Not saying we're going to win the Champions League. But we're in the last 16. Again. Which means that as a team we can't be *that* bad, surely?
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 07:00:08 pm »


I won't use any insults, Mr Mullet, as I'll save you the time of looking them up in the dictionary.

I'm sure Chelsea, Juve and Milan were bricking it, too, in 2004/05, when we were doing worse in the league than now. And, remind me, did we not get to the final last year, too?

Not saying we're going to win the Champions League. But we're in the last 16. Again. Which means that as a team we can't be *that* bad, surely?

difference is Emo, the players dont believe in him anymore, he's ruined it for himself. All those months of banging on about the same turgid shite week in week out on here and it all comes to fruition. Sadly depressing but not unsurprising.
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2008, 07:22:44 pm »
Good article Mr Tomkins, my thoughts kinda mirrored out there.

difference is Emo, the players dont believe in him anymore, he's ruined it for himself. All those months of banging on about the same turgid shite week in week out on here and it all comes to fruition. Sadly depressing but not unsurprising.

You sir, love to be the centre of attraction
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2008, 07:43:43 pm »
Good article Mr Tomkins, my thoughts kinda mirrored out there.

You sir, love to be the centre of attraction
Why do i like to be the centre of attraction? Ive been shot down in the past, called every name under the sun and sent insulting pm's and been banned, all because i just based my comments on, not on adoring adulation, but on what i could see going on the pitch.

It doesnt take a genius to see does it? Shed the adoration and you might just see it. Rafas a nice dignified feller but a feller with handicaps to his philosophy domestically i may add - nowt wrong with him in europe where he is by far more comfortable with the state of play.
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 08:08:00 pm »
It's a team game, thus all have to share the blame.

I'm not saying Benitez is always right, but our players can't just put the blame on manager or club for their poor performance, not when they are professionals.

Everyone has a different opinion and if everyone wants it their way, or worse, if influential players gang up to sow discord (whether intentional or unintentional, despite the good intentions for the club), it could only mean trouble.

Maybe some decisions were doubtful and led to undesirable results, but who has the winning formula anyway? Can the players or fans guarantee success if things were done their way?

So just shut up and play. A manager manages and players play. Even with the wrong tactics or wrong formula, if the desire is strong and the team is united, things will more likely go our way, compared to the present mess that we are in.

Just my humble opinion.

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 08:14:53 pm »
 would go a step further and say that this season has been threatening to happen for a while.
Although I despise Hicks and Gillet for the way they have behaved, I think they have just
been the straw for the camels back.
There have been a number of factors at work for several years now of which the Gillet and Hicks fiasco has been the latest. These have have all come together to create a massive 'black hole'  whose vacuum has sucked away our confidence, unity and self belief as club.

Condsider this:
 
Constant media pressure telling us as fans that the 'one one we really want is the league'. Yes would be great but as Paul Tomkins article clearly demonstrates (to those influenced by the Sun and 606),there are 3 other top teams with more money, established managers and big players. Closing a gap on them takes more than just 3 years and 60m pounds.
Each year it is massively over emphasised how much we have spent compared to everyone else and how this year is our year etc etc.
This has built year on year to the point where the players must feel unimaginable pressure everytime they play. Indeed, God knows how they would feel if we actually were in with a chance in the run in in April.

There is also a continuous list of criticisms of the manager and players married to oversimplified analysis from weak journos/ex-players (from Aldo to Tommy Smith)
claiming everything from poor substitutions to over rotation is the cause of the problems. Again all this must undermine the confidence and unity of the staff.

(Before anyone claims that all teams have to deal with this pressure, I would disagree. The week Liverpool were panned by all and sundry for a draw away at Luton in the Cup, the two darlings
of the media (Moyes and Hughes) had both just got tonked at home (YES AT HOME) to lower league opposition and it hardly got a mention in the press)

Ironically, another factor is our success in the champs league. One would think that winning the champs league and reaching a second final in three years would merit considerable praise and cement Benitez reputation as a great manager. Far from it in fact. At best these achievements are ignored by the media as ‘freaks’. Worse still as a result of Liverpools success in the champs league some have now devalued the competition to the point that they discuss it as though it is some sort of European carling cup that anyone on their day can win. Its truly preposterous.
United have toiled for years to win this, Arsenal never have and Chelsea have failed despite having spent more than any other team on the planet.
This has further undermined the confidence of the team and our collective spirit that when we do win something its dismissed in favour of the ‘league is the one we really want’.

Then the crowning turd is an owner who marches in and behaves so much against the whole tradition of the club that one could conceivably think he had been planted by Glazer.
This filters down to the fans and we have descended into a collective abyss of negativity which is now feeding off itself like an insatiable monster.

Add all this together and the result is a manager who will inevitably become prickly and stubborn as a matter of survival, and a team whose confidence is so brittle that they are probably in fear every time they run out an Anfield. Its no coincidence our home form is so shit this year.

But.. are things really that bad? Consider this:

1)   We have actually only lost 3 times – the real reason we are detached from the top is the result of some poor draws at home, primarily Birmingham, Wigan, Villa and Spurs. The difference between winning and drawing these is taking chances and the margins are small.
2)   Although we have had a poor run in the league noone from the potential champs league teams (e,g Blackburn, Villa, Portsmouth,City or Everton) have really capitalized. We lost last night and all the others either drew or lost. Everton are in my opinion the only realistic challenge and we have the game in hand and meet them at home. We are playing poorly at the moment but if you had to bet on who will finish 4th I would still back us without question.
3)   The core of the side is outstanding. JR, JC, DA, SG, JM, XA, RB, FT are top players who would be sought after across Europe if they were sold. Our difference with United is only that they have Rooney Tevez and Ronaldo who were a combined cost of over 50million. Would be nice to have that cash would it not? In time though we can develop players to start to reach their level. I very much see RB as in that bracket.

Come May we WILL finish fourth but it will take a collective spirit to achieve this. As a club we need to turn in ourselves and get a grip of the situation.  We have better players who need to start remembering who they are and what they have achieved.
Ignore the press and stick together and back the team.

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 08:55:39 pm »
Well said, Smallwood Red.

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2008, 08:59:51 pm »
But then i'd expect you to disagree, as Rafa is adored by you.

I know you're a descendant of the official site Tony (as am I) but can we cut out the 'sunshiner' 'darksider' bollocks? It's called having differing opinions and it obviously doesn't come from Rafa being 'adored' because I know plenty who like the man and don't rate the manager.

I personally do rate the manager, not through blind faith, not through ignorance, not through having lower standards or any of the other crap that gets thrown about. It's just an opinion.

If you are entitled to yours, others are entitled to theirs without you being arsey about it and calling it 'adoration' or blind faith or whatever. You don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot and someone accuses you of being a 'Rafa basher', I know you don't because I've seen you complain about it many times.

So why is it OK for you to do the same to others?
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In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2008, 09:53:05 pm »
I know you're a descendant of the official site Tony (as am I) but can we cut out the 'sunshiner' 'darksider' bollocks? It's called having differing opinions and it obviously doesn't come from Rafa being 'adored' because I know plenty who like the man and don't rate the manager.

I personally do rate the manager, not through blind faith, not through ignorance, not through having lower standards or any of the other crap that gets thrown about. It's just an opinion.

If you are entitled to yours, others are entitled to theirs without you being arsey about it and calling it 'adoration' or blind faith or whatever. You don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot and someone accuses you of being a 'Rafa basher', I know you don't because I've seen you complain about it many times.

So why is it OK for you to do the same to others?

Adoration is aimed squarely at the likes of Emo and 4pool, who can 100% of the time see no wrong with what he does.

As i said, i rate him - in europe.
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2008, 10:02:03 pm »
The only thing that really gets me about your argument Ant is that you talk about the players' attitude because of rotation and not knowing whether they're playing week in week out and it messing with their heads - but this attitude that we're seeing from the players is very new, going back a month or so. Do you honestly believe that was the point where suddenly the mental effects of rotation kicked in (after almost 4 years of it)? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe, undemining the manager publicly made a massive contribution to him losing the players?

The way I see it, you have to focus attention on the owners, get them out and let Rafa work under normal circumstances again, with a team
closer to what he wants than he's had before. He hasn't had the chance this season. But getting rid of him only strengthens the position of the two fools in charge of our club. Which is a far bigger problem than Rafa, surely? I don't understand ANYONE who thinks Rafa is the more important problem to deal with now.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2008, 10:21:43 pm »
The only thing that really gets me about your argument Ant is that you talk about the players' attitude because of rotation and not knowing whether they're playing week in week out and it messing with their heads - but this attitude that we're seeing from the players is very new, going back a month or so. Do you honestly believe that was the point where suddenly the mental effects of rotation kicked in (after almost 4 years of it)? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe, undemining the manager publicly made a massive contribution to him losing the players?

The way I see it, you have to focus attention on the owners, get them out and let Rafa work under normal circumstances again, with a team
closer to what he wants than he's had before. He hasn't had the chance this season. But getting rid of him only strengthens the position of the two fools in charge of our club. Which is a far bigger problem than Rafa, surely? I don't understand ANYONE who thinks Rafa is the more important problem to deal with now.

I think the players are sick of it yes. And dont forget every year we've had different players, most never made the grade did they? We've been inconsistent LEAGUE WISE every season with him in charge.

 If your Gerrard, how do you feel when the line up is announced and someone like Voronin is included? or Kuyt? bearing in mind the poor form they are in? It has an effect on members of the team, whether your playing Sunday League or premiership football, when your manager picks players that arnt doing the business your confidence is knocked before you even hit the pitch. Thats life, thats human.

When i played i wanted the best out there with me to win, i wanted the chances of us winning that match to be high, when for whatever reason that wasnt the case i went out there with less expectancy which effects performance.

For example look at ILFC. I played for them for 3 seasons, and you know what we had the best team man for man in the whole league. But we never won the league because we didnt have that same group of players through the season. People would go missing week to week and the manager would have to make do and chop and change. The team that won the league had a regular set of lads that made virtually everygame. We were inconsistent and dropped stupid points when we'd have to put out a team that was unfamiliar.

I reckon if Rafa went to Spain he'd walk it because he is a top manager where its more suited to his tactical slower paced game. Where he falls on is arse is the lack of that extra percent he cant get out of his players, whether it is motivation, consistency, drive or winning mentality, but all that comes from having a stable team and system as much as possible in the prem. he wants 25 players that can seamlessly chop and change and still do the business, a squad like Chelseas. Unfortunately we dont have the capital for 25 great to world class players.

And attitude. I watched Crouch saturday labour all over the pitch. Yes he was pants and frustrating but can you blame him? He's almost fourth fiddle to two strikers who cant hit a barn door with a spade, he's only considered good enough to partake against non league opponents. Theres no incentive. Apart from reina, gerrard, carra, Masch and lately Torres each other player doesnt know whether they are playing one game to the next, regardless of performance. Lucas for example come in was it October? Played really well against Bolton, Newcastle etc, then disappeared for about 4 matches. Its ludicrous! the lad was on form! Last year crouch scored a hat trick against Galatasaray and was promptly dropped the next game.

You cant fuck around with players like that, football is a confidence game. Thats why i think the players are sick of the way the team is setup, and watching Saturday and last night they dont look like they are playing for a manager under pressure, they look like they have lost interest, because nothing matters to them, their place in the team means nothing.
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2008, 10:28:03 pm »
I respectfully disagree. You make some good points but I think it's a ludicrous coincidence to think that this suddenly happened when the Americans came to visit.

Rafa has been a dead man walking for a while - as long as the current owners remain in charge, not just a 'manager under pressure' and through football history players struggle to motivate themselves for managers they think won't be there much longer. Couple that with some concerns amongst certain players along the lines you mentioned and the stability goes. But it would NEVER have happened like that without Rafa being publicly undermined time and again.

Agree to disagree cos I think we've both made our points.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2008, 10:47:38 pm »
I respectfully disagree. You make some good points but I think it's a ludicrous coincidence to think that this suddenly happened when the Americans came to visit.

Rafa has been a dead man walking for a while - as long as the current owners remain in charge, not just a 'manager under pressure' and through football history players struggle to motivate themselves for managers they think won't be there much longer. Couple that with some concerns amongst certain players along the lines you mentioned and the stability goes. But it would NEVER have happened like that without Rafa being publicly undermined time and again.

Agree to disagree cos I think we've both made our points.

i think its been brewing mate. i think the americans did him a favour in a way because they made people sway in his direction when their faith was being tested, i stuck up for him on the march myself.

but the inconsistency has always been there league wise, always has. The only time we had SOME consistency was when we had no Cl to partake in.

And dont get me wrong either i dont like these two donkeys who are in charge either.
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #30 on: February 1, 2008, 07:04:46 am »
i think its been brewing mate. i think the americans did him a favour in a way because they made people sway in his direction when their faith was being tested, i stuck up for him on the march myself.

but the inconsistency has always been there league wise, always has. The only time we had SOME consistency was when we had no Cl to partake in.

And dont get me wrong either i dont like these two donkeys who are in charge either.

I'm with you on this one. The Americans are a distraction, and have made Rafa's job much more difficult, but this is still our best ever squad under Rafa and we're 17 points behind the leaders.  It's just not good enough.
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Offline bravoco

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #31 on: February 1, 2008, 07:52:33 am »
Good article PT - thanks.

Enjoyed the discussion too, HH and Walshy. Decent, reasoned exchanges like this (plus writing like Paul's) were what drew we to RAWK in the first place. It's unfortunate how rare these are at the moment.

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #32 on: February 1, 2008, 10:58:49 am »
Fair enough, winning the league might be an impossible task but do a few trying circumstances make scratting around for 4th place with Villa and Everton after 4 years at the helm and spending gazillions acceptable?

Offline flying red

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #33 on: February 1, 2008, 11:38:33 am »
It's all to easy to point the finger (Tony Barrett's piece in last night's Echo was spot-on) but if you look back over the last ten years, including Evans' and Houllier's times, we've never had a team that has consistently performed to expectations throughout a season.  We've always had wobbles in November - this season it's about a month later.

It's easy to have a go at Rafa, just as we did with Houllier.  However with hindsight, Houllier did a great job of instilling professionalism in the first team squad - he rebuilt Melwood and introduced the kind of ideas for diet and training that are common in France, Italy and Spain.  He took on Steve Heighway on youth development but lost that battle.

Rafa has overhauled scouting, the academy and player development.  As PT writes, the performance of the U18s and reserves are significantly better and indicate that the club is moving forward in the way that Arsenal did.  There are so many talented youngsters coming through that this will be a contributor to profits and cashflow over the next five years - there won't be too many academy lads let go on frees over the next few years.

Reading between the lines of player interviews over the last few years, it's plain that the likes of Crouch don't enjoy being in and out of the first team so I'm sure some of that frustration is coming home to roost now.  Trouble is, as we know players like Crouch, Pennant, Kewell wouldn't have a prayer of being signed by a club as big as Liverpool, so they are shooting in themselves in the foot every time they go out and don't do their best.

Rafa is operating a process of managing that has yielded success at Valencia and here - he observes, analyses and then makes decisions on tactics, formations and line-ups.  Any other manager would be selected on the basis of their track record and it has to be said that Rafa's is better than most.

It's easy and cheap to stir the shit with a "Rafa out" campaign, but what I'd like to know from those whose fingers are poised on the trigger is who you would want to replace him with?

Offline The Nihilists

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #34 on: February 1, 2008, 11:44:31 am »
Fair enough, winning the league might be an impossible task but do a few trying circumstances make scratting around for 4th place with Villa and Everton after 4 years at the helm and spending gazillions acceptable?


Liverpool haven't spent "gazillions", the club's spending is more on a par with Spurs and Newcastle than with United and Chelsea.

And yes, we're scratting around for 4th at the moment, but we're in a shit period right now. That could change for the remainder of the season, or next season. Arsenal came from doing the same in the last two years to being a top side again - all of a sudden.

Offline Runehammer

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #35 on: February 1, 2008, 12:53:29 pm »
The reason some idiots treat the CL like some footballing version of jeux sans frontiers has more to do with the fact that the media darlings have done poorly in it for so long and they, the media, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that Rafa is just a lucky manager and, so, they are now dismissive of the CL and will remain so until Man U win it again whereupon it will become the holy grail once again.

The fact it has been so long since we won the league and that we are all desperate for no 19 has just made it so much easier for this line to be sucked up I'm afraid.

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #36 on: February 1, 2008, 04:34:23 pm »
The reason some idiots treat the CL like some footballing version of jeux sans frontiers has more to do with the fact that the media darlings have done poorly in it for so long and they, the media, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that Rafa is just a lucky manager and, so, they are now dismissive of the CL and will remain so until Man U win it again whereupon it will become the holy grail once again.

The fact it has been so long since we won the league and that we are all desperate for no 19 has just made it so much easier for this line to be sucked up I'm afraid.


Quite agree. its for this reason as fans we should stay focussed on what the real facts regarding our position, progress players and manager.
Sadly increasingly many people are falling for the media crap.
I think its partly cos theres a lot of people now cant remember when we really were dominant and that swagger has been assumed by man utd fans. Even when they are shit they dont get too bothered as they expect to come good again. I can remember us being like that 80-81, 84-85, 86-87 etc. We were happy we were having a blip in these periods when other teams won the league. A lot of people these days would have sacked Paislet in his first season unfortunately, and god knows what they would have made of brucie!
We need to stay tight folks. June and July is a time for changes not Feb! :-X

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #37 on: February 1, 2008, 04:52:46 pm »

Quite agree. its for this reason as fans we should stay focussed on what the real facts regarding our position, progress players and manager.
Sadly increasingly many people are falling for the media crap.
I think its partly cos theres a lot of people now cant remember when we really were dominant and that swagger has been assumed by man utd fans. Even when they are shit they dont get too bothered as they expect to come good again. I can remember us being like that 80-81, 84-85, 86-87 etc. We were happy we were having a blip in these periods when other teams won the league. A lot of people these days would have sacked Paislet in his first season unfortunately, and god knows what they would have made of brucie!
We need to stay tight folks. June and July is a time for changes not Feb! :-X

Well what you are saying is back in those days we were consistently good, even if we didnt win the title, we always run it close and we knew we would bounce back - the club had the type of winning mentality United now possess. Which is quite difference from these days, where we cant manage a sustained challenge.
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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #38 on: February 1, 2008, 04:56:55 pm »

Liverpool haven't spent "gazillions",
I'm sorry but compared to Everton, Villa and Man City over those 4 years we have. If you'd said at the start of Benitez's reign that 4 years down the line we'd still be scrapping it out with Everton for the last Champions League spot I doubt anyone would have found that acceptable.
« Last Edit: February 1, 2008, 04:59:45 pm by cornelius »

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Re: The Impossible Job
« Reply #39 on: February 1, 2008, 05:34:50 pm »
I'm sorry but compared to Everton, Villa and Man City over those 4 years we have. If you'd said at the start of Benitez's reign that 4 years down the line we'd still be scrapping it out with Everton for the last Champions League spot I doubt anyone would have found that acceptable.


Sure, but it's the first season we've been scrapping around since Rafa's first. So is it a blip, or a fact? All teams have better seasons some years, and worse ones soon after. Arsenal have been 4th the last two seasons, and only just from Spurs at times. Then Spurs have a shocking start and Arsenal suddenly turn into this great team, almost overnight. If Babel improves like Adebayor did all of a sudden, and so on, who knows what can happen next?

If it becomes a regular thing with us in this kind of position, fair enough, but as a club we're miles ahead of Everton, Villa and Man City, two of whom aren't even in Europe, and all of whom are also out of the FA Cup. We've been in the knockout stages of the Champions League four years running - and that's all part of the equation.
KRAMER: "I'm at 1st and 1st. Wait a minute, how can a street intersect into itself? I must be at the nexus of the universe!"