Author Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.  (Read 34341 times)

Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #400 on: May 17, 2009, 10:35:55 am »
Funny I thought it was losing to Spurs and Boro... but then that doesn't fit with the programme.
Not if we had only drawn both games it wasn't. Two more points wouldn't have made a lot of difference would it?
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #401 on: May 17, 2009, 11:18:21 am »

The league table doesn't lie and the best team is not decided by who loses the least number of games.

Not arithmetically, no.  But in practice, the team with the most points is usually the team which has won the most, and lost the least.

In fact, since 3 points for a win, the champions have always won the most games except:  1999 (joint most);  1998 (joint most); 1989 (joint most); 1986 (joint most); 1984 (joint most); 1982 (joint most).

Whereas, since 3 points for a win, the champions have always lost the least games except: 2006 (joint least),  1999 (joint least), 1989 (joint least),  1987 (joint least); and 2008 (2nd and 3rd places lost 2 games less and 4th place lost 1 game less),  2007 (2nd place lost 3 games less),  1995 (2nd place lost 1 game less).  This season, 2009, will be another example (of either joint least, or of a runner-up losing fewer).


In other words, there has never been a year when another team has had fewer non-wins than the champions.


So, if anyone looks in the "draw" column, and sees that other teams have less draws than the champions, then that isnt proof that draws are bad (one draw is one point more than one loss).  It's just that draws are non-wins, and non-wins are bad.


So yeah, more wins is better than less wins.

But is there really any evidence that the reason that we have not won more is that we have settled for a draw rather than pushing for a win?  In every game that we have drawn, we have been the attacking team right up to the final whistle.

Isnt it fairer to say that, while we have tried to win more games, we havent been good enough?

And while there may be games where MU have finished with Tevez, Ronaldo, Berbatov and Rooney, so what? 

We do not have four £30m attackers on our books.  So how could we put them all on the pitch at the same time?

And when have we ever fought our way back from behind to draw level, and then taken off attackers?


A fairer analysis of our season would point out that we have scored more late goals than other teams, that our substitutes have scored quite a few, and that we are the division's top scorers (despite our main striker only starting a bit more than half the games).


Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #402 on: May 17, 2009, 11:31:28 am »
Not if we had only drawn both games it wasn't. Two more points wouldn't have made a lot of difference would it?

But what is better:  Liverpool 11 draws and 2 defeats; or Chelsea 8 draws and 5 defeats.

And isnt 13 draws and no defeats better than either?


The reason that MU (6 draws and 4 defeats) have the best record isnt because they have drawn less than Liverpool or Chelsea, or because they have lost more than us.


The only thing that matters is winning.

But there is a big fallacy doing the rounds at the moment.  People have come up with the strange idea that if you lose more, you'll win more. 

It aint so.

Likewise people are saying that losing few games isnt (in itself) a good thing.  It IS a good thing, so long as it is part of a longer term plan.  First turn defeats into draws, then turn draws into wins.  And, in Rafa's case, we can be sure that that is exactly what is going on.



Offline Antony

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #403 on: May 17, 2009, 11:32:14 am »
Any one who thinks we can just go a season beating all the teams outside the top 4 is deluding themselves. Especially with Gerrard and Torres missing chunks of the season and Keane missing sitters.

I expect us to play to win, not to play to draw, as we did early on in the season against the said teams.

We missed Gerrard and Torres v United at Home and Torres v Chelsea away, , yet when we get a bad result without them, it's down to the players, money and 'dem yanks'. We had Gerrard and Torres v Wigan away and we still didn't win.

Gerrard and Torres are crucial players, but when we where missing Gerrard v Fulham at home for example, we didn't help ourselves with Xabi on the bench did we?

The mantra, It's important to win but more important not to lose was our biggest downfall this season, that mantra went out the window from March onwards, and forever it should remain out the window.

'Win lose or draw, the buck stops with the manager' and as culpable as he is for us getting 2nd, he is culpable for us not finishing 1st.

If we are drawing at home to a team like Hull with 20 Minutes to go and bring on Lucas Leiva over our 20 Milllion Pound striker I'll presume Rafa hasn't learnt from his lessons. It's about intent, Pre-March in the games of which we drew, we looked as if we where playing for them. If we had played to win I could probably live with it.






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Offline Guz-kop

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #404 on: May 17, 2009, 11:52:54 am »
The way we played is pretty well described by what he wrote.

Except that there were a handful of games (Wigan, Boro, City to name 3) where we were behind, came level and still went for it including playing players out of position and basically throwing the kitchen sink to get the win. It's what gave us so much confidence and hope for the rest of the season.

NO team will win every game they play, the mancs won more than us (and only did so to get SIX more points) because they have a better squad, better footballers, more experience in this league. Rafa is a young manager and very inexperienced compared to the likes of Wenger and especially Ferguson so it is natural to expect he is on the same learning curve that most of our players are on and has made mistakes but fuck me reading this you'd expect that all he had to do was turn the ATTACK switch on and we'd have won the league at a canter.

Quote
United had 4 attacking goal scorers on the pitch when they were one nil down. Once they equalised they continued to push forward for the winner. Of course it was a game they thought they had to win but the point is they did EXACTLY the same thing at Stoke away when they were drawing 0-0 before they scored the winner

You mean like when we took off our right back and left back for Benayoun and El Zhar when we needed the points against Wigan at home? They were down to 10 men but so were Stoke when the munsters scored their winner. The difference is that Man United's attack players against Stoke when they score were...

Ronaldo
Scholes
Berbatov
Giggs
Rooney
Tevez

And then they brought on £18m Michael Carrick

Our attacking players at home to Wigan were

Kuyt
Gerrard
Benayoun
Keane
Riera
Pennant
El Zhar

Those last three names in the second list and stick out like a sore thumb.
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #405 on: May 17, 2009, 11:53:12 am »
I expect us to play to win, not to play to draw, as we did early on in the season against the said teams.

Villa away is one game where we didnt seem very positive.  Although it's fair to point out that MU also had a 0-0 there.

Of course taking off Gerrard (albeit to replace him with an out and out striker in Keane) after Wigan equalised was infuriating.  But are we sure that the motivation was that Rafa wanted to avoid defeat in this game rather than go all out for the win.  Isnt it more plausible that he had medical reasons for needing to get SG off the pitch?

As for not using Keane against Hull, that seems a bit of a waste.  But was Rafa's thinking really that "If I put Keane on, that will give Hull a better chance of snatching it"?   I doubt it.  Whether we agree with Rafa's decision or not (and I'm not going to try to defend it), I'm pretty sure that it had more to do with not fancying Keane and/or not wanting him to be injured before the window and/or internal politics, and little to do with a negative outlook.


Other than Villa away, I cant really think of any games that we havent pushed for a win throughout.


Offline Antony

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #406 on: May 17, 2009, 11:55:27 am »
Villa away is one game where we didnt seem very positive.  Although it's fair to point out that MU also had a 0-0 there.

Of course taking off Gerrard (albeit to replace him with an out and out striker in Keane) after Wigan equalised was infuriating.  But are we sure that the motivation was that Rafa wanted to avoid defeat in this game rather than go all out for the win.  Isnt it more plausible that he had medical reasons for needing to get SG off the pitch?

As for not using Keane against Hull, that seems a bit of a waste.  But was Rafa's thinking really that "If I put Keane on, that will give Hull a better chance of snatching it"?   I doubt it.  Whether we agree with Rafa's decision or not (and I'm not going to try to defend it), I'm pretty sure that it had more to do with not fancying Keane and/or not wanting him to be injured before the window and/or internal politics, and little to do with a negative outlook.


Other than Villa away, I cant really think of any games that we havent pushed for a win throughout.



It's this sort of cautious bullshit which cost us the league though. Let them worry about us, not us worry about them.
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Offline SMD

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #407 on: May 17, 2009, 11:59:21 am »

If you think Rafa ever sends a team out with any objective than to win then you're very much mistaken. Just because he brings on a midfielder instead of a striker, doesn't mean admitting defeat. And seriously, Robbie Keane looked like many things in a Red shirt but not a £20 million forward.

Keane never instilled me with confidence for us and he was more likely to disrupt our forward play than enhance it.
Gerrard and Torres may not have had much say against United at home but they hardly came and parked the bus, did they?
Collective team effort can only get you so far. Once our attacking play clicked and Kuyt and Benayoun found roles in the side, then we rely a little less on them. But they're still the difference.

I still can't believe that people expect us to trounce teams on one hand while bemoaning our lack of quality on the other.

Rafa still rotated and so did Ferguson. First XI my arse.
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #408 on: May 17, 2009, 12:01:17 pm »
It's this sort of cautious bullshit which cost us the league though. Let them worry about us, not us worry about them.

Which cautious bullshit?

My point was that Rafa's decisions against Hull and Wigan might have been right, or they might have been wrong.  But they werent born of caution.

Even for Villa away, it's not like we parked the bus.  Out of the 2 teams, we were the one that tried harder for a win.  And we didnt lose the league in that game.  We got the same scoreline that the Mankers did.


Offline LFCfan4Life

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #409 on: May 17, 2009, 12:03:02 pm »
But that's the point isn't it? We could have gone un beaten this season by drawing both of those games that we lost, but we still wouldn't have won the league would we?

no we would have taken it to the last day, though and if we won them both then we would have won the title

now we will never know anyone so it doesn't matter at the end of the day we fell sort for whatever reasons

We will talk about we should never have drawn x game etc but i'm sure Rafa is actually analyzing the reasons WHY we drew and trying to sort them out

^^^^
O.k. I'll revise my post. Next season we will beat every team in the prem home and away without conceding a fucking goal.Is that better?

Look, all I'm saying is that this season we have been exceptional in certain areas and it will be hard to reproduce it again next season. I'm not saying we can't/wont win the league.

All this talk of wiping the floor with everyone is bullshit. We have gone 3 years now without a trophy so let's just stay a bit fucking realistic eh?

I think we CAN win it next season but also recognise it's not going to be some fucking walk in the park like some people do.

no you said we wont beat chelsea and the mancs, we may not, but to say we WON'T is bollocks

All i know is we wont beat every one of the 19 other teams twice no one ever will.
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Offline Antony

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #410 on: May 17, 2009, 12:04:38 pm »
Which cautious bullshit?

My point was that Rafa's decisions against Hull and Wigan might have been right, or they might have been wrong.  But they werent born of caution.

Even for Villa away, it's not like we parked the bus.  Out of the 2 teams, we were the one that tried harder for a win.  And we didnt lose the league in that game.  We got the same scoreline that the Mankers did.



Villa away was a good result,  the fact is if we approached the said games like we have the games since March, we would have picked up more points. Maybe we may have lost more games, but as Man Utd have shown, they have lost more games, put picked up more wins. They threw caution to the wind.

We didn't.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #411 on: May 17, 2009, 12:05:30 pm »
Not if we had only drawn both games it wasn't. Two more points wouldn't have made a lot of difference would it?

We should have won both of those games, in the same way we should probably have won against Stoke or Wigan. Turning two of those draws into wins would give 4 extra points, turning those two defeats into wins would have gained 6 points... which would have put us clear at the top?...

It's not difficult really... the point is that every team drops points somewhere along the way - in 35 years watching football I've yet to see a team have a perfect season (38 wins), or come anywhere close. To try and say it was one particular result or set of results that cost us is pointless, unless your trying to flog a particular dead horse, you know the one about Rafa not getting the league, being too defensive yadda, yadda, yadda... We dropped more points than United - therefore we didn't win the title. Those points were dropped in eleven draws and two defeats - Rafa and the team need to look at all of them and hopefully with more intelligent analysis than some Keeganesque call to step up and go for it...

We are where we are because of the intelligent football that Rafa has got us playing and the players he has bought. We need them to do as well or better next year. 

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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #412 on: May 17, 2009, 12:09:26 pm »
You cant win if you dont throw caution to the wind. Fergface does it all the time.

We did it in the early months then settled back mid season. we only started doing it again after we beat United.
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Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #413 on: May 17, 2009, 12:10:19 pm »
You cant win if you dont throw caution to the wind. Fergface does it all the time.

We did it in the early months then settled back mid season. we only started doing it again after we beat United.

Prove it.
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Offline BazC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #414 on: May 17, 2009, 12:12:41 pm »
If you think Rafa ever sends a team out with any objective than to win then you're very much mistaken. Just because he brings on a midfielder instead of a striker, doesn't mean admitting defeat. And seriously, Robbie Keane looked like many things in a Red shirt but not a £20 million forward.

Keane never instilled me with confidence for us and he was more likely to disrupt our forward play than enhance it.
Gerrard and Torres may not have had much say against United at home but they hardly came and parked the bus, did they?
Collective team effort can only get you so far. Once our attacking play clicked and Kuyt and Benayoun found roles in the side, then we rely a little less on them. But they're still the difference.

I still can't believe that people expect us to trounce teams on one hand while bemoaning our lack of quality on the other.

Rafa still rotated and so did Ferguson. First XI my arse.

I actually think that Rafa knows the importance of a win earlier in the season now. We all love him and rightly so (compare the team in 2004 to the one now) but we have to remember he's still a manager who's learning his trade in the PL. This season's been his best yet because suddenly, we've had the belief we're good enough to win.

And that belief doesn't just come from the players- Rafa needs to have the belief in them himself. Quotes of his this season suggested that now he felt comfortable going toe-to-toe with any team and knowing we could beat them, as opposed to previous years when he hasn't had that belief.

That shift in mentality is what I wanted to see last season, but finally we got it this season. Having the confidence in yourself is one thing, but the fact is- we're a team. Everyone needs confidence in everyone else- from Rafa to Reina, they all need to be confident with each other. And that's finally happened this season (also look at Gerrard's quotes regarding his development under Rafa).

Things weren't there at the start of the season, but since that Middlesbrough game we've turned a massive corner- we all used to say "it'll happen, we're turning a corner" but this season it's actually happened. We take that on to next season now and go for the title knowing we can do it. This season, perhaps it was a case of being determined because we had to do it (to stop them Mancs), and we somehow stumbled to the top of the table despite not playing great football (Mancs and Chelsea were as bad at the time thankfully)- and that shift in mentality came just as we looked like we'd start languishing down again... we hauled ourselves right back into it, and bar a few lucky results for the Mancs (who have been far from their best since we've been back on the scene) we'd have won it.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #415 on: May 17, 2009, 12:14:25 pm »
Prove it.

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2   Liverpool   36   46   80
3   Chelsea   36   41   77

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Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #416 on: May 17, 2009, 12:17:59 pm »
1   Man Utd   37   43   87
2   Liverpool   36   46   80
3   Chelsea   36   41   77

Seriously, tell me when you talked to Rafa and he told you he stopped telling the players to score.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #417 on: May 17, 2009, 12:19:56 pm »
And isnt 13 draws and no defeats better than either?

It depends.

5 wins and 8 defeats will get you more points than 13 draws. 

Put it another way, we could have taken more risks and lost those drawn home games against Fulham, West Ham and Man City. But we'd still have gathered more points than we did if we'd won against Hull and Stoke.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #418 on: May 17, 2009, 12:22:27 pm »
Villa away was a good result,  the fact is if we approached the said games like we have the games since March, we would have picked up more points. Maybe we may have lost more games, but as Man Utd have shown, they have lost more games, put picked up more wins. They threw caution to the wind.

We didn't.

Sorry but that's utter bollocks. They lost two more games than us. Two were against us where they were outplayed and never had a chance to go for it and "throw caution to the wind", they were crap against Fulham and fell apart, and were beaten by Arsenal at the Emirates. They had a long run of shite 1-0 wins where they were scrabbling for form. How can those losses have anything to do with their wins? 

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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #419 on: May 17, 2009, 12:30:19 pm »
Seriously, tell me when you talked to Rafa and he told you he stopped telling the players to score.


Its not about that. You've heard rafa enough times, he likes to control matches. Might work on the continent, but time and time again doesnt in the prem. How many times do you see a team leading comfortably 1-0 lose a last minute goal? Happens all the time in the Prem.

Too many games he's decided to stick with what he's had. Wigan, Hull, Everton, West Ham and Fulham to name a few.

Everton is the one that sticks in my mind the most, 1-0 up with a few minutes left and he brings on Lucas to shore up the midfield and we begin to sit deeper. Everton win a free kick and its 1-1 and two points dropped with no time to hit back.

Compare that to going out and battering teams like we did from March onwards? Could Villa come back? United? Newcastle?Blackburn?

No of course not. That should be the attitude. We cant win everygame and there will be times when it just wont run for us. But you damn well have to give it a go dont you?

 Unfortunately mid season he did become cautious, happy to hold onto what he had and unfortunately it backfired.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #420 on: May 17, 2009, 12:32:54 pm »
What a load of shite. The very obvious reason we drew more than the mancs isn't because of some over cautious approach from Rafa, it's down to our quality infront of goal. Some of our attacking players went through a period of poor form and we had no-one to bring in to do the business, that's why we dropped points. Our approach to such games has harly changed all season yet recently we have destroyed teams because players like Kuyt and Benny (along with the consistently billiant performers we have) have hit a rich vein of form.

Blame Rafa for the lack of attacking cover if you may, but I think it's fair to say he's got us sorted in pretty much every other department and so greater attacking options is where we will look to improve this summer. Rafa's tactics are spot on.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #421 on: May 17, 2009, 12:39:47 pm »
Its not about that. You've heard rafa enough times, he likes to control matches. Might work on the continent, but time and time again doesnt in the prem. How many times do you see a team leading comfortably 1-0 lose a last minute goal? Happens all the time in the Prem.

Too many games he's decided to stick with what he's had. Wigan, Hull, Everton, West Ham and Fulham to name a few.

Everton is the one that sticks in my mind the most, 1-0 up with a few minutes left and he brings on Lucas to shore up the midfield and we begin to sit deeper. Everton win a free kick and its 1-1 and two points dropped with no time to hit back.

Compare that to going out and battering teams like we did from March onwards? Could Villa come back? United? Newcastle?Blackburn?

No of course not. That should be the attitude. We cant win everygame and there will be times when it just wont run for us. But you damn well have to give it a go dont you?

 Unfortunately mid season he did become cautious, happy to hold onto what he had and unfortunately it backfired.

Yes, yes it is about that. Either Rafa told them to stop playing well, of course this is one of many possible situations in which Rafa is at fault, poisoned Kool Aid, threats to families health, and holding Big Ben for ransom being a few others, or you have no idea, and are simply blaming Rafa out of convenience.  Since you have refused to provide any tangible evidence to support your theory, I'm guessing it's the later.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #422 on: May 17, 2009, 12:40:13 pm »
What a load of shite. The very obvious reason we drew more than the mancs isn't because of some over cautious approach from Rafa, it's down to our quality infront of goal. Some of our attacking players went through a period of poor form and we had no-one to bring in to do the business, that's why we dropped points. Our approach to such games has harly changed all season yet recently we have destroyed teams because players like Kuyt and Benny (along with the consistently billiant performers we have) have hit a rich vein of form.

Blame Rafa for the lack of attacking cover if you may, but I think it's fair to say he's got us sorted in pretty much every other department and so greater attacking options is where we will look to improve this summer. Rafa's tactics are spot on.

Sorry you are wrong. Do you not remember the matches in question? We hardly created sod all in those games and played well within ourselves.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #423 on: May 17, 2009, 12:40:49 pm »
Yes, yes it is about that. Either Rafa told them to stop playing well, of course this is one of many possible situations in which Rafa is at fault, poisoned Kool Aid, threats to families health, and holding Big Ben for ransom being a few others, or you have no idea, and are simply blaming Rafa out of convenience.  Since you have refused to provide any tangible evidence to support your theory, I'm guessing it's the later.

Look mate if you cant be bothered to discuss dont act a plank. Witnessing with my eyes and the results thereafter is all the evidence i need.

In fact why dont you get a copy of Liverpool v Hull and watch the game again, it might convince you that he wanted to control the game rather than try to bury it.
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Offline lamonti

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #424 on: May 17, 2009, 12:48:43 pm »
Its mainly due to confidence if you ask me. We're slearly good at creating chances and scoring goals.

Its jsut that in some games we allowed people to have the temerity to park the bus and let them believe they'd get a 0-0 at Anfield. The last team I can remember doing that at Old Trafford was Reading on the first day of last season when they man-marked all their attackers basically played no football whatsoever.

So many teams just don't believe they can go to Old Trafford and get something. For some reason, some had begun to believe they could get a draw at Anfield. At the moment (and for the last few months) not many have thought that. The Stoke home game is symbolic of how we came up short this year.

Right after beating Chelsea, we can't beat Stoke, despite basically having a training session around their penalty box. Its the reason Arsenal are so shit - because passing the ball around the edge of the box when there's 11 men defending it is pointless, attacks have to be quick and incisive, even if they do have a patient build up before the space is created. Confidence in your ability makes the passes, the control, the vision everything better... makes these things happen. We never looked like we weren't going to score since the Boro match (apart from maybe the last ten mins against Chelsea in CL).

And in reference to the title, whilst I'd obviously love the 6 points we didn't get from the two games we lost, the Boro game was wake-up call desperately needed and the Spurs one was the fluke of all flukes. It was the draws what done it.

Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #425 on: May 17, 2009, 12:55:18 pm »
Look mate if you cant be bothered to discuss dont act a plank. Witnessing with my eyes and the results thereafter is all the evidence i need.

In fact why dont you get a copy of Liverpool v Hull and watch the game again, it might convince you that he wanted to control the game rather than try to bury it.

I forget he used semaphore to tell the players to calm down and not shoot the ball towards the goal, but credit to you for knowing semaphore.


We ALWAYS try to control the game, via possession, that's the type of game we play.  If our attacking movement isn't effective our possession tends to do nothing so it looks like we're just holding onto it, but really we're just incapable of doing anything with it.  With a bit of motivation and confidence we've converted that possession into goals, thanks to the very same system Rafa has employed since the outset.  I think the evidence supports that theory, rather then simply being frustrated with a draw and trying to blame Rafa for setting out not to win.
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Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #426 on: May 17, 2009, 01:14:25 pm »
I forget he used semaphore to tell the players to calm down and not shoot the ball towards the goal, but credit to you for knowing semaphore.


We ALWAYS try to control the game, via possession, that's the type of game we play.  If our attacking movement isn't effective our possession tends to do nothing so it looks like we're just holding onto it, but really we're just incapable of doing anything with it.  With a bit of motivation and confidence we've converted that possession into goals, thanks to the very same system Rafa has employed since the outset.  I think the evidence supports that theory, rather then simply being frustrated with a draw and trying to blame Rafa for setting out not to win.

We've all said it, but its our wastfulness from set pieces which is still a major problem. Granted we have improved in that dept of late, but its all those tite matches against discplined team where the only time you can get a decent chance is at something like this. The mancs and chelsea are masters of this and that has helped them snatch tight matches.

There is nothing much wrong with our tactics, though we could push that much harder in the last 30mins. The big difference between us and the mancs has been the number of players who can do the business for them. Tevez has spent the whole year as either a sub, or played when the others are rested, but every game he has played well and often scored.

The best comparision, is between all the games we drew and how the mancs had similar performances but managed to scrape a winning goal from somewhere. We are close, but the two players we had that shouldve made a bigger impact were Keane and Babel. Those two on form wouldve given us the points to win this title, I'm sure of it.
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Offline tomtom

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #427 on: May 17, 2009, 01:32:56 pm »
Sorry you are wrong. Do you not remember the matches in question? We hardly created sod all in those games and played well within ourselves.

Correct, for the reasons I gave... nothing to do with all this over cautious bollocks.

Controlling games is how we go about it, do you want us to play with 4 up top and let the opposition have the ball or something? We've scored plenty of goals this season, more so than the mancs, using Rafa's tactics.

When we failed to convert and in a few instances in games where we did not create enough chances it was because the players we had on the pitch did not perform up to standard required to break teams down. Just because whiskey nose uses seat of his pants tactics at times it doesn't mean it's the best or correct way to do it. When we have more quality we will continue to control games and our attacking play will improve.

Your wrong.

Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #428 on: May 18, 2009, 01:15:48 am »
Fact of the matter:  3 points outta 6(win 1 lose 1) is better than 2 points outta 6 (draw 2)

Thats for bouy or boy?   :)

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Offline mooks

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #429 on: May 18, 2009, 01:52:39 am »
But that's the point isn't it? We could have gone un beaten this season by drawing both of those games that we lost, but we still wouldn't have won the league would we?
And here's me thinking if we'd drawn both those games we'd be two points behind United with one game of the season left.

Offline LFCfan4Life

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #430 on: May 18, 2009, 01:56:34 am »
Fact of the matter:  3 points outta 6(win 1 lose 1) is better than 2 points outta 6 (draw 2)

Thats for bouy or boy?   :)

yea and its just as easy to get 0 out of 6 and end up with fuck all like at spurs when we were caught attacking looking for the winner

or against boro when we were looking for an equaliser and conceded

those two points would have taken us to the last day
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Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #431 on: May 18, 2009, 02:04:46 am »
yea and its just as easy to get 0 out of 6 and end up with fuck all like at spurs when we were caught attacking looking for the winner

or against boro when we were looking for an equaliser and conceded

those two points would have taken us to the last day

Nay...i am looking at Liverpool FC....we have more quality to get the three points from the matches which we drew especilly at home to lower clubs... Stoke, W ham,

i am not lookin at being villa, spurs....WE ARE LIVERPOOL FC and we HAVE the quality.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #432 on: May 18, 2009, 02:21:57 am »

So many teams just don't believe they can go to Old Trafford and get something. For some reason, some had begun to believe they could get a draw at Anfield. At the moment (and for the last few months) not many have thought that. The Stoke home game is symbolic of how we came up short this year.


For me, that shows JUST how important that disallowed Gerrard goal was. That Stoke game will have given teams like Fulham, West Ham, Hull City, Everton, Wigan, Man City et al huge confidence that they CAN get a result out of us at Anfield. If that goal had have stood I'm not being funny but I think we'd almost certainly have battered Stoke 3 or 4 nil easy, just as the Mancs did when not playing particularly well (think they won 5-0). Not only that, I think it gave our own players a lack of self belief at home initially. We appeared to be playing within ourselves so often when teams came to Anfield and didn't "go at us". I remember the Hull game and saying to the fella next to me that if they hadn't have scored the game would probably have ended up 0-0. As soon as we got level again it was the same mentality that we'd had for much of the early part of the season.

Ah well. Next season eh?

Offline woof

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #433 on: May 18, 2009, 02:35:36 am »
No point crying over what should have been. Overall, I'm pleased with the performance this season. We have shown that we have taken a big step forward. We now have to make sure that Mancs do not create a new record by winning their 19th

Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #434 on: May 18, 2009, 03:51:34 am »
We've all said it, but its our wastfulness from set pieces which is still a major problem. Granted we have improved in that dept of late, but its all those tite matches against discplined team where the only time you can get a decent chance is at something like this. The mancs and chelsea are masters of this and that has helped them snatch tight matches.

There is nothing much wrong with our tactics, though we could push that much harder in the last 30mins. The big difference between us and the mancs has been the number of players who can do the business for them. Tevez has spent the whole year as either a sub, or played when the others are rested, but every game he has played well and often scored.

The best comparision, is between all the games we drew and how the mancs had similar performances but managed to scrape a winning goal from somewhere. We are close, but the two players we had that shouldve made a bigger impact were Keane and Babel. Those two on form wouldve given us the points to win this title, I'm sure of it.

Babel scored 2 less the Tevez this year, and Keane scored exactly the same as him so that's a terrible comparison.
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Offline kaz1983

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #435 on: May 18, 2009, 06:16:37 am »
What a load of shite. The very obvious reason we drew more than the mancs isn't because of some over cautious approach from Rafa, it's down to our quality infront of goal. Some of our attacking players went through a period of poor form and we had no-one to bring in to do the business, that's why we dropped points. Our approach to such games has harly changed all season yet recently we have destroyed teams because players like Kuyt and Benny (along with the consistently billiant performers we have) have hit a rich vein of form.

Blame Rafa for the lack of attacking cover if you may, but I think it's fair to say he's got us sorted in pretty much every other department and so greater attacking options is where we will look to improve this summer. Rafa's tactics are spot on.

This is right. And I hate people thinking Rafa woke up in the morning and thought, ''ah lets play attacking football'' ... for all we know this is the sort of football Rafa has wanted to play in whole at Liverpool but has not had the players to carry it out effectivley. 

Offline opsteo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #436 on: May 18, 2009, 06:43:21 am »
What a load of shite. The very obvious reason we drew more than the mancs isn't because of some over cautious approach from Rafa, it's down to our quality infront of goal. Some of our attacking players went through a period of poor form and we had no-one to bring in to do the business, that's why we dropped points. Our approach to such games has harly changed all season yet recently we have destroyed teams because players like Kuyt and Benny (along with the consistently billiant performers we have) have hit a rich vein of form.

Blame Rafa for the lack of attacking cover if you may, but I think it's fair to say he's got us sorted in pretty much every other department and so greater attacking options is where we will look to improve this summer. Rafa's tactics are spot on.

Agree...we missed some sitters in those draws when we created good chances.  I strongly believe that coaches can only do tactically the right things so that you team can dominate and create more chances, the rest is up to the players especially the scoring of goals.  When Didi Hamann came on at Instanbul, it was not putting in an attacking player or striker (to score more goals) but it changed the balance of the game to Liverpool.  Having Keane, Torres and Gerrard (early part of the season) on at the same time would seem to be the most aggressive and offensive team that Liverpool can have on the field, it did not result in our best performances or create the best and most number of chances. 

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #437 on: May 18, 2009, 08:12:18 am »

Fact of the matter:  3 points outta 6(win 1 lose 1) is better than 2 points outta 6 (draw 2)

Thats for bouy or boy?   :)


But what does that prove?

Given a choice between 3 points from 2 games, and 2 points from 2 games, then obviously everyone would prefer 3 points.

But where's the evidence that Rafa (or any other manager) has that choice?

The manager has to try to create a team that wil win as many games as possible.  But at no point does the manager try to say "I will eliminate draws, because that will mean more wins".

The manager will - probably - say "I will try to eliminate defeats, because we need to hate losing in order to be a great side".

But that doesnt mean that the manager thinks that eliminating defeats is the ONLY thing that he needs to do to win the league.



Oh, and by the way, 19 wins and 19 losses is 57 points (approx 7th in the league), whereas 38 draws is 38 points (approx 4th from bottom).  Which of these is something which might happen in real life?   It's just about conceivable that a team (maybe Man C or Spurs) might be so inconsistent to have 19 wins and 19 losses. 

But it would  never happen that a team could equal Arsenal's record of going unbeaten through a 38 game season, and yet flirt with relegation.  This is the point which is completed missed by those who simply say "2 draws = 2 points; 1 loss, 1 win = 3 points"  A team which is good enough to be unbeaten will - almost certainly - be good enough to win more games than a team which loses 19 games a season.




Offline keyo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #438 on: May 18, 2009, 08:32:19 am »
of course, if you don't get beat then you do increase your chance of winning to a 50/50 outcome  ;)
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Offline stiffnuts

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #439 on: May 18, 2009, 08:42:28 am »
For me, that shows JUST how important that disallowed Gerrard goal was. That Stoke game will have given teams like Fulham, West Ham, Hull City, Everton, Wigan, Man City et al huge confidence that they CAN get a result out of us at Anfield. If that goal had have stood I'm not being funny but I think we'd almost certainly have battered Stoke 3 or 4 nil easy, just as the Mancs did when not playing particularly well (think they won 5-0). Not only that, I think it gave our own players a lack of self belief at home initially. We appeared to be playing within ourselves so often when teams came to Anfield and didn't "go at us". I remember the Hull game and saying to the fella next to me that if they hadn't have scored the game would probably have ended up 0-0. As soon as we got level again it was the same mentality that we'd had for much of the early part of the season.

Ah well. Next season eh?

agree totally i have said in a few posts that the stoke game was the day we lost the league title. It actually shapped the next few months of our season, we recovered and believed to late to do anything about it although we gave terrific peformance and fought to the end.