Topic: PHILIPPE COUTINHO: THE MAN WHO ESCAPED PURGATORY

[Red-Soldier]

What are his stats on cutting in from the left and smashing it high, wide or into other players 

[HighSix]

Probably one of the most overrated players in football.

The price we bought him for, the lack of bids since hes been with us & only 12 caps for Brazil since his debut in 2010 suggest not. Maybe a little underrated in the football world.

[JackWard33]

And he's spent the last 18 months with Balotelli, Lambert and Benteke ahead of him.

He's spent the last 18 months playing in the wrong position

[El Lobo]

And he's spent the last 18 months with Balotelli, Lambert and Benteke ahead of him.

Yep

I'm sure we were all pretty good at kicking footballs at telegraph poles when we were kids, but it's quite something else expecting any player to have that telegraph pole score a goal. Maybe that's why he's taking so many long shots, hoping he'll get a deflection.

[bird_lfc]

And he's spent the last 18 months with Balotelli, Lambert and Benteke ahead of him.

Pretty much, add to the fact he's probably in the wrong position.

He'd thrive with better players around him. I'll admit I'm underwelmed by him and Firmino together - but I suppose we can't expect them to hit it off instantly just because they are both from Brazil.

[JackWard33]

My Coutinho cut out and keep summary :

a) he isn't as good as most people think
b) he isn't as bad as he's shown this season
c) he isn't a forward or a 10 and should play deeper
d) the way he's playing at the moment is selfish, a massive inhibitor to the team and he should change what he's doing or be dropped

[child-in-time]

He's our Götze. And a Götze that will choose to stay!

Exactly. Not the Gotze of Dortmund though, but that of Bayern.

[Coolie High]

Exactly. Not the Gotze of Dortmund though, but that of Bayern.

Hes been better than that.

[kaz1983]

Does Coutinho have the physical traits to play a deeper role?

[tubby]

Does Coutinho have the physical traits to play a deeper role?

Can't see Klopp wanting him there, he's just too small, even though he's pretty scrappy and his ball retention is superb.  I'd play him there, as far away from the goal as possible so he doesn't just keep taking pot shots every 10 minutes.

[Redman0151]

Say what you like about him, but in the past few years he seems to be one of the only players we have who consistently shows up and performs in the big games. Get quality around him and he improves.

[jooneyisdagod]

My Coutinho cut out and keep summary :

a) he isn't as good as most people think
b) he isn't as bad as he's shown this season
c) he isn't a forward or a 10 and should play deeper
d) the way he's playing at the moment is selfish, a massive inhibitor to the team and he should change what he's doing or be dropped

Do you really think Klopp has completely missed his constant shooting? Are we forgetting that for large parts of last season, it was either a Coutinho screamer going in or we didn't win? Even with Raheem up front, he played more passes and created more opportunities. He's being forced to play like an inverted winger. He's not one. You can think Brendan for that. Taking an incredible player and playing him like Scott fucking Sinclair.

[Coolie High]

Say what you like about him, but in the past few years he seems to be one of the only players we have who consistently shows up and performs in the big games. Get quality around him and he improves.

Yep one of the best big game players in the league, already at 23.

[jooneyisdagod]

Yep one of the best big game players in the league, already at 23.

One of the best players in the league according to his peers too, but not according to those on RAWK who think he shoots too much. The only thing I'm surprised by is that he isn't an expert free kick taker already given he keeps bending the ball around the wall that is usually our centre forward into the top corner. Get good players around him that can actually play on his wavelength and he'll start showing his worth.

[Cpt_Reina]

Yep one of the best big game players in the league, already at 23.

Just a shame that there's probably only 10 'big games' a season in the league.

He could do with working on his effectivness in the other 28.

[Anywhichwayicant]

What's a big game though?

Playing against one of the big teams that attack us and we can hit on the counter?

Is playing relegation fodder when our rivals have dropped points not a big game?

[Pistolero]

Probably one of the most overrated players in football.

probably one of the stupidest things i've read this year....

[tubby]

not according to those on RAWK who think he shoots too much

You don't think he shoots too much?

[Jinxsy]

probably one of the stupidest things i've read this year....

You need to stay in more! There's loads of shite as good as that in here if you can't be arsed to avoid it

[jooneyisdagod]

You don't think he shoots too much?

Oh no, he does shoot way too much. But that's not entirely down to him. It's down to our strikers barely if ever creating space and making a clever run these days. It's down to the turgid speed at which we get the ball up the pitch usually taking 5 meaningless touches in front of our own back four as Lucas or Henderson or Can take their own sweet time to play the pass. It's down to no one else on the pitch looking like either scoring or even creating a change. I think he's a super player and we're wasting him at the moment.

[Coolie High]

Just a shame that there's probably only 10 'big games' a season in the league.

He could do with working on his effectivness in the other 28.

He will.

[Redman0151]

What's a big game though?

Playing against one of the big teams that attack us and we can hit on the counter?

Is playing relegation fodder when our rivals have dropped points not a big game?

Against top teams in the league, in cup semi finals at Wembley or in the last minute when we need a goal to win a huge game. You're right he needs to improve in other games, but it's impossible to quantify how important it is to have players who have the balls to stand up and be counted in those big games. When Rodgers was waffling on about the Fa cup semi final being too big of an occassion for us, Phil still managed to score.

Put Sturridge on the pitch, or another mobile striker, and he'll contribute more in the rest.

[tubby]

Oh no, he does shoot way too much. But that's not entirely down to him. It's down to our strikers barely if ever creating space and making a clever run these days. It's down to the turgid speed at which we get the ball up the pitch usually taking 5 meaningless touches in front of our own back four as Lucas or Henderson or Can take their own sweet time to play the pass. It's down to no one else on the pitch looking like either scoring or even creating a change. I think he's a super player and we're wasting him at the moment.

This is just making excuses for him.  You put Ozil in the exact same position in our team and I'd bet dollars to donuts that he wouldn't be shooting anywhere near as much as Coutinho.  He'd just recycle possession, wouldn't try and create something out of nothing.  What's to say that someone like Lallana wouldn't do better in a team which has lots of runners and movement ahead of him?  His output was much better at Southampton.  Does he get the same excuses as Coutinho?

[Coolie High]

This is just making excuses for him.  You put Ozil in the exact same position in our team and I'd bet dollars to donuts that he wouldn't be shooting anywhere near as much as Coutinho.  He'd just recycle possession, wouldn't try and create something out of nothing.  What's to say that someone like Lallana wouldn't do better in a team which has lots of runners and movement ahead of him?  His output was much better at Southampton.  Does he get the same excuses as Coutinho?

And Ozil is a different type of player, put Ozil in some of the games we've had in the last couple seasons and he hides, whereas Coutinho has shown up time and time again.

Ozil has only gone back to his old self this year, before that he had two seasons of hiding and doing nothing, apart from that there different type of players, very few players are as intelligent and as selfless as Ozil, at the same token, very few players are as inspirational and maverick as Coutinho, horses for courses.

But i posted the stat above that he is actually still top 5 in most accurate throughballs since he's come into the league, that suggest to me that at least in previous seasons his passing through the lines and final ball has been pretty decent, if Sturridge comes back and its the same, i'll be worried, but i can almost guarantee it won't be.

Lallanas output has never been better than Coutinho in terms of creativity, throughballs, key passes etc, only goals and assists, excuses won't be made for him because we haven't seen him play the football Coutinho has for Liverpool.

[jooneyisdagod]

This is just making excuses for him.  You put Ozil in the exact same position in our team and I'd bet dollars to donuts that he wouldn't be shooting anywhere near as much as Coutinho.  He'd just recycle possession, wouldn't try and create something out of nothing.  What's to say that someone like Lallana wouldn't do better in a team which has lots of runners and movement ahead of him?  His output was much better at Southampton.  Does he get the same excuses as Coutinho?

They're not excuses, they're explanations for why he shoots so much. Ozil only came good after he was surrounded by pace. If you took Ozil and put him in our team, he would lose his mind as the others don't really have the technique or the movement to retain possession in high pressure areas. The ball will inevitably keep going back to our CB's before it gets hoofed back upfield. Silva would be the same. Take Iniesta and put him in a team where he can't play a through pass to anyone and see how well he does.

Every top team needs someone to stretch the play, not just by making runs but by being able to collect the ball and carry it forward. Who in our team carries the ball forward? Leaving Coutinho aside, there's probably Ibe and that's about it, and he doesn't always play. It's easier for a team playing on the counter to actually get one of their players to make a run up the field as the ball is lumped up once every few minutes. When a team dominates possession and the onus is on them to create and score, you need players that can carry the ball all the time and not just those that can do it once or twice a game. This side lacks pace everywhere. As much as Ibe is a teenager, even his presence forces opponents to think twice. If only our players had the game intelligence to spring him into a couple of one on ones rather than taking for ever before playing the ball to him when the opposition has already settled.

[B0151?]

I really don't see how you can excuse his shooting. Our forwards haven't been great, but they aren't as bad as our creative players have made them look either. Coutinho can put some really good moves together, but those moves don't happen as often as they should do because he shoots far too much.

It's not entirely his fault that our attacking play is so woeful, but he's more of a playmaker than goalscorer and he needs to recognise that. Our attack would create a lot more if Coutinho tried to dictate play with clever passes and movement like a Silva or Ozil. He has it in him and we need to work to unleash that. I think it is something that can be improved on in the training ground, but the reality is that Klopp has had a few months now and there hasn't been much of a change. So it looks like we do need to adjust something player-wise as these guys simply aren't clicking together. Get any striker, a prime injury-free Sturridge, and I think we'd still be having trouble to a degree because the midfield and support isn't putting fluent attacks together and is not using the ball well.

[B0151?]

Also, Coutinho has always shot too much for my liking considering the goals it produces, I've always thought that. He had more shots per game in 13/14 than 14/15.

The difference is it's been on him to be the creative heartbeat of the team so it makes it even more frustrating now every shot is a potential move gone to waste from our main provider.

[Red-Soldier]

Lets see how many times he shoots tomorrow night.

[HeartAndSoul]

He plays much better when he has movement ahead of him. Noticed when he has static players playing in front of him, the more shots he takes.

[ScottScott]

You can't excuse his shooting. It's amazing to see the amount of excuses being made for him doing it week in week out. "There isn't enough movement ahead of him", "Everyone else is shite so he has to do it all himself" and so on and so on

Someone else mentioned that Lallana doesn't get that leeway and is, rightly, criticised for his lack of numbers. Coutinho should be criticised as well. Somehow it's Benteke's fault that Coutinho isn't playing well? What? He's a good player, could be a great player but he has too many games where he doesn't influence enough or at all. He goes missing for months at a time and seemingly only plays well with Sturridge

[Cpt_Reina]

You can't excuse his shooting. It's amazing to see the amount of excuses being made for him doing it week in week out. "There isn't enough movement ahead of him", "Everyone else is shite so he has to do it all himself" and so on and so on

Someone else mentioned that Lallana doesn't get that leeway and is, rightly, criticised for his lack of numbers. Coutinho should be criticised as well. Somehow it's Benteke's fault that Coutinho isn't playing well? What? He's a good player, could be a great player but he has too many games where he doesn't influence enough or at all. He goes missing for months at a time and seemingly only plays well with Sturridge

Lallana only holds on to the ball for so long because he knows if he gives it to Coutinho he'll spoon it over the bar™

[Haggis36]

Coutinho is far too inconsistent to really be the creative hub of our side or our main playmaker, he often has 3 or 4 matchwinning performances in a row that has everyone commenting he's worldclass then becomes completely anonymous or dare I say it actually poor for months. It was less of an issue when he first arrived but at his age and level of experience now he needs to be much, much better than that.

He's very much a player that needs perfectly favourable conditions to play his game, and despite his little purple patch he doesn't carry enough goal threat to play behind the striker in my opinion, and he looks lost out wide. It's a bit of a quandary.

[007.lankyguy]

They're not excuses, they're explanations for why he shoots so much. Ozil only came good after he was surrounded by pace. If you took Ozil and put him in our team, he would lose his mind as the others don't really have the technique or the movement to retain possession in high pressure areas. The ball will inevitably keep going back to our CB's before it gets hoofed back upfield. Silva would be the same. Take Iniesta and put him in a team where he can't play a through pass to anyone and see how well he does.

Every top team needs someone to stretch the play, not just by making runs but by being able to collect the ball and carry it forward. Who in our team carries the ball forward? Leaving Coutinho aside, there's probably Ibe and that's about it, and he doesn't always play. It's easier for a team playing on the counter to actually get one of their players to make a run up the field as the ball is lumped up once every few minutes. When a team dominates possession and the onus is on them to create and score, you need players that can carry the ball all the time and not just those that can do it once or twice a game. This side lacks pace everywhere. As much as Ibe is a teenager, even his presence forces opponents to think twice. If only our players had the game intelligence to spring him into a couple of one on ones rather than taking for ever before playing the ball to him when the opposition has already settled.

Kind of sums it up really. The thing with Coutinho is that he's not yet reached a level of maturity to adapt well enough in situations that don't favour him and his game. For example, he's always been inconsistent against low blocks because he prefers the direct option to the indirect one. It's the main reason why he's not really an orchestrator-type, at least for now; he's too focused on the quick route to goal, instead of taking the sensible option of continuing to circulate possession when the odds don't favour him. It's exactly why he takes so many low percentage shots - if he doesn't have the movement ahead of him or the space to attempt a through ball, his next thought is always to shoot, when in fact it should be "how can I improve this situation?". The reason players like Xavi and Iniesta have been so highly praised in recent times is because they always do take the right option; they know when to switch play, when to hold on to the ball, when to entice an opposition player towards them, when to feed it through the lines, when to play a through ball. Coutinho's shots this season have an 'Expected Goals' value of 0.07. Bear in mind, he's taken the most shots not only in our squad but in the whole league, that is a shockingly inefficient statistic. He has the ability to be a top European player in my opinion but he hasn't got the brain yet to adjust his game when he needs to.

I think it's also worth considering that he's always performed better in the second half of seasons, at least since he's joined the club. People forgot towards the end of the last season how mediocre he'd often been early on in the season. With that in mind, I think he'll begin to perform better in the next few months, especially as the team hopefully starts to find at least some measure of cohesion.

[wemmick]

He is a good player, but he is not playing his position well right now. The number of times he drops deep or cuts inside to shoot and leaves us a player short in the left half space drives me a little nuts. We can't regularly produce overloads in tight spaces on that side of the pitch because he is so undisciplined when he is out of form.

Learning to play in a more disciplined way is probably the next phase of his development. I don't mean any of that as an overly harsh criticism. Just an observation. I think the City match is the only one I can recall lately when he played his position with good discipline.     

[Keith Lard]

Utterly superb player, but developing a disturbingly predictable Babel-esque trait of cutting in on his right foot from the left flank and shooting.

He will find his form again very soon - simply too good. Wish he'd grow the mop back too.

[B0151?]

He plays much better when he has movement ahead of him. Noticed when he has static players playing in front of him, the more shots he takes.

Like I just said, he was having more shots in 13/14 than 14/15. We just had a lot more about us then so it wasn't as frustrating.

No doubt he plays better though, but he can be much more than through-balls if we work patience and attack building into his play. He's definitely capable of it.

[Mutton Geoff]

if this thread was set up to flush out all the idiots  who don't recognise class remains and form is temporary  it worked . 

There are some real beauts in here !

This lad can turn games , he is probably  the one guy we have who is a real game changer and at 23 will only improve, and we got him for an absolute steal of a fee.

( Sturridge might be the other game changer but too often not on the pitch for a decent sample)

Some of you couldn't recognise a quality player if he kicked you up the arse . 

[tubby]

I don't think there's anyone in here saying he's not a quality player, just that he needs to improve his decision making on the pitch.

[El Denzel Pepito]

I'd like to see him get in to the box more. I know people say 'oh but he's better with space' and 'he's better when he's in midfield so he can see the game ahead of him', well that hasn't worked out. Too many times in games he picks up the ball in midfield, puts it out to the wing and remains on the edge of the box. I'd like to see him play as a second striker, constantly in the box as he's one of the few in our team who could finish when inside the box. His potshots have been frustrating to watch. He's talented and he's a top player on his day and if he were to leave it'd be a big blow for us, but he's not been delivering recently. Feel like he needs a Suarez-esque forward (not in terms of quality) pressing ahead of him to flourish and pick up those second balls which hasn't been happening. Or he just needs to make an improvement in being more of a team player.

Nobody's expecting him to be at a Ronaldinho level, but he's currently been playing below an Oscar level of performance, and nowhere near the likes of Ozil and Willian - albeit the latter is a player in a different position.

[Keita Success]

August 12, 2015, 06:41:05 PM »

Coutinho is very very good, but he needs to be more consistent. There are quite a few players that are better, not because they're more talented, but because they're more consistent.

Touré, Silva, Agüero, Sanchez, Cazorla, Costa, Hazard, Ozil, Giroud... these are more consistent and better players than Coutinho.

Coutinho's on the level of Chamberlain, Erikson, Depay, Sterling, etc.

He has fantastic ability and a potential world-class player. But get the rid-tinted glasses off. He isn't there yet.

Said this in August and got absolutely slaughtered.