Author Topic: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?  (Read 54941 times)

Offline Mamadou

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2015, 06:04:06 pm »
selling to Real Madrid and selling to your english rivals is different thing... although Arsenal sold RVP to to manutd, and Chelsea did it with Mata, Welbeck to Arsenal, Nasri, Sagna etc to ManCity,Torres to Chelsea, Sturridge to Liverpool etc
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 06:05:37 pm by Mamadou »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2015, 06:05:27 pm »
Look I want the best for us and am certainly not a doomer ... but the facts do speak for themselves over the last few years since Rafa.  The new stand(s) are a step in the right direction, but financially speaking it's just a step, not a leap to anything near parity. 

Re. Sterling I actually thing it was right to sell him, but the fact that he wanted to go to a domestic rival is the concern, and it was by no means a precedent. 

Re. Rodgers, he surely must get credit for 2013/14, and I think we have a great chance of beating Utd to 4th this season (not convinced they're buying well).  The proof in the pudding will be whether we're consistently eating at the top table in the next five seasons. 

If we do it by canny dealings and thrift then so much the better, but that will buck the odds in a big way that has never been done before in the modern EPL era. 

It's been done in the modern La Liga era and twice we've come extremely close in the last six years or so under Rafa and then Rodgers.

The fact is we aren't going to be bought up by a richer Russian oil thief than Abramovich or by a richer oil sheikhdom with a worse human rights record than Abu Dhabi in the near future and we can't magic up the rewards of twenty five years of domestic dominance.

So what should we do? Just give up? Moan like whiney kids who didn't get their ice cream?
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Offline Keita Success

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2015, 06:14:20 pm »
We aren't a 'selling club', but we are a club who will sell for the right price. To put it into perspective, Sterling has fetched a fee only matched by the likes of Kaka, Ronaldo, Bale, and more than the likes of Figo and Zidane. Whilst the previous two are as much due to the inflated prices of fees, it's pretty obvious that to say no to City's offer would be bonkers. Sterling isn't a £50M, or £49M ;), player. The club has done excellently to get that fee.

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2015, 06:16:55 pm »
I don't know. Does Sterling improve their overall first 11 or improve their chances of winning something? Which is more beneficial to us: getting a ridiculous sum of cash for a spoiled brat child who isn't anywhere near what he's made out to be to use to improve our first team; or keeping him on to sulk and kick dirt in our eye the first chance he gets? Sterling is not Suarez or Torres. He's a jumped up little shit that should be grateful for the chance to play for a club the size of Liverpool at his age, and he can easily be replaced instantly with another kid, or someone else who's more willing to step up, and we've got plenty of options there. Torres and Suarez, along with many others that have been sold in the past, were not so easy to replace.

I don't get the fuss. We robbed them blind for this kid as far as I'm concerned. It helps us more than it helps them.

Offline RK7

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2015, 06:17:32 pm »
We're becoming a stepping stone sadly, many will disagree but it is the reality of it. We can not compete with the top four clubs in England without being far smarter in other areas or further investment. It is a problem and we're better off accepting it and making sure we have the right people at the club with solutions.

We need to stick to a philosophy and ensure no one individual holds everything together, if we sell then we ensure we have a ready made replacement sorted early.

Offline lindylou100

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #85 on: July 13, 2015, 06:22:51 pm »
Well it's certainly had a destabilizing effect on our plans to progress as a club over the last few years.

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2015, 06:26:13 pm »
"Selling clubs" put players on the market when the time is right and look at every player down the road eventually as a potential profit. Our major sales while no doubt a product of other clubs being more powerful and an example of the leverage a player has in modern football is not a sign that we are in this just to sell players at their peaks.
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Offline Fiasco

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2015, 06:56:18 pm »
It comes to something when I get nervous when one of our players has a sustained period of form because at the back of my mind I'm aware that if he keeps it up it's likely that he'll go. The main example being Coutinho, but I started thinking it about Sterling during the title run-in 16 months or so ago and unfortunately the worst case scenario has now come to fruition. I'd be feeling the same about Sturridge if he was more durable, and if Firmino performs here like he has done in Germany and is a success then I don't envisage him staying here for any longer than 3 years. It's a terrible attitude to have, and the good thing about it is that I now don't get attached to players like I did with the likes of Owen and Torres, but it's an attitude that I can't help but have.

That said though, most clubs in the world are selling clubs. There may be some, but I can't think of an example of a player who has recently flat out turned down on of the big Spanish clubs or Bayern Munich. If and when they come knocking for your players then there isn't a great deal you can do. The fact that it's now City who have taken one of our players suggests that in future it won't just be the big sides on the continent who take our best players. I think it perhaps sets a dangerous precedent. What is stopping Coutinho going there? When Torres went to Chelsea I understood it. We were in the doldrums, Kenny was in charge but we had new owners and we were languishing in the bottom half of the table thanks to the cowboy's and Roy. It was a big chance for him and £50 million was a silly amount of money. Now though it's completely different. We are supposed to be on the up, hoping to soon be competing with City. Not selling one of the best prospects in Europe to them.

I'm glad it's done though, and I said last night that I don't care much about it either way. In some ways I don't, but on reflection I don't like where this could take things. Frankly I think it'll be open season now. United or Arsenal will buy one of our players soon if the price is right. There is nothing to stop them. I understand Sterling had to go, I completely get it and as I said I'm glad for everybody that it's finally settled. The only way we have a better chance of keeping hold of our best players if to be successful, and it's pretty damn hard to be successful if you keep letting your best players go. It's a vicious cycle, and in this fucked up age of football it's not an easy cycle to break, but if we don't want this to be a repeat occurrence then we're going to have to figure it out.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2015, 07:04:13 pm »
It comes to something when I get nervous when one of our players has a sustained period of form because at the back of my mind I'm aware that if he keeps it up it's likely that he'll go. The main example being Coutinho, but I started thinking it about Sterling during the title run-in 16 months or so ago and unfortunately the worst case scenario has now come to fruition. I'd be feeling the same about Sturridge if he was more durable, and if Firmino performs here like he has done in Germany and is a success then I don't envisage him staying here for any longer than 3 years. It's a terrible attitude to have, and the good thing about it is that I now don't get attached to players like I did with the likes of Owen and Torres, but it's an attitude that I can't help but have.

Here's another scenario for you, we add the right players this season, we don't have title challenging season but we manage to finish 3rd or 4th and have a decent cup run maybe even win one. Next year we add more players that help the team perform even better, we compete for the title but don't get there but finish 3rd comfortable or maybe 2nd. We win another cup lets say the FA cup. We have a decent champions league, get through to the quarter finals and are knocked out by Barcelona. The next season we attract some really great players, we compete for the title all the way, and have a stellar Champions League by getting through to the Final. Players with us see progress and are happy to stay.


Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2015, 07:17:20 pm »
Par for the course really, the football landscape is as unrecognisable as ever. Since end of last season I've been fairly detached from football, not bothered in the slightest currently and I don't think that will change going into the season.

Can't even be arsed to post much in here either, the whole thing is just flat.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2015, 07:19:58 pm »
Well it's certainly had a destabilizing effect on our plans to progress as a club over the last few years.

Which years would they be?

2009-2010 when we were about to go out of business at the start of the season then sold to FSG in October? The season that H&G sacked Rafa and appointed the Hodge? Sales out included Alonso but otherwise no one special. In came Aquilani and Johnson on big fees Maxi on a free and a lad called Raheem Sterling from QPR.

2010-2011 when we started the season under the Hodge with Poulsen, Cole and Konchesky among his great buys?.. and Mascherano left for Barca despite the obvious attraction of playing under Hodgson. And we finished the season under Kenny with Suarez and Carroll joining in January? Torres went to pay for them but we all know that he was on a downward spiral at the time.

2011-2012 when we started under Kenny who brought in Henderson and Ibe (good) and a few that weren't so good (Adam, Downing Coates etc) but we didn't really sell any big names apart from Konchesky, Poulsen and Meireles... (that's a joke). We had yet another change in manager when Brendan came in.

2012-2013 No big names out apart from Dirk Kuyt, Maxi, Aquilani but all were either offloading player that hadn't made it or were at the end of their careers. Players in included Sturridge, Coutinho and Joe Allen...

2013-2014 No big names out apart from Andy Carroll, Downing, Spearing and Shelvey taking a step down. Patchy buys again but include Sakho, Toure and Mignolet.

2014-2015 Obviously the big name leaving was Suarez and Pepe going to Bayern after burning his bridges by showing his knickers to Barca. Danny Agger went back to Denmark at his own choice. Patchy ins, although it's too soon to say how some of these will turn out but Can and Lallana show signs of being good Liverpool players, Origi was on loan and of the rest the jury is out.

2015-2016 Sterling obviously the big name going but other than that our best players (or at least our first team squad players) are signed to contracts and not likely to be sold - a lot of them bought in the seasons listed above (Henderson, Ibe, Sturridge, Coutinho, Allen, Sakho, Toure, Mignolet, Can, Lallana, Origi). And they are being joined by Gomez, Ings, Milner, Clyne, Firmino plus at least one other and a load of the surplus players will be sold off.

The pattern I can see there is an imperfect buying record under four managers and two owners where we keep the good players and the majority of sales are about clearing out the mistakes and good players who've reached the end of their usefulness for Liverpool. There are three anomalies in there - Alonso, Suarez and Mascherano (sold by Hodgson who had no fucking clue what to do with him) who were all top players for us at the highest level who went on to play for one of the top two teams in Spain and win shitloads of trophies. Then there's Sterling, who is a different kind of anomaly. A talented young player and a great prospect who, with his agent saw an opportunity created by City's shambolic buying policy to cash in on their desperate need for young homegrown players and make a move for silly money.

Otherwise we have been building a team over the last few seasons and not constantly selling off all of our best players. A selling club would have Henderson, Coutinho and Ibe on the market with new young talent coming up ready to be sold on the next cycle...but they aren't.

There's a separate conversation to be had about our buying power and attractiveness but 'selling club'?... No, I don't think so.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 07:21:31 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline karl740

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2015, 07:59:24 pm »
Here's another scenario for you, we add the right players this season, we don't have title challenging season but we manage to finish 3rd or 4th and have a decent cup run maybe even win one. Next year we add more players that help the team perform even better, we compete for the title but don't get there but finish 3rd comfortable or maybe 2nd. We win another cup lets say the FA cup. We have a decent champions league, get through to the quarter finals and are knocked out by Barcelona. The next season we attract some really great players, we compete for the title all the way, and have a stellar Champions League by getting through to the Final. Players with us see progress and are happy to stay.

Which scenario is most likely though?

Offline Chakan

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2015, 08:02:56 pm »
Which scenario is most likely though?

Buggered if I know. Lets see what happens this year and next. So far I think we're making all the right moves to get to my scenario (this season anyway) although I still think we need to cap it off with a nice striker.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2015, 08:12:26 pm »
We're at the level of a Tottenham now who do sometimes lose players to other English teams. And even Tottenham are building a new stadium now which will dwarf ours.

People don't realise how much of a fuck up it was last season to collapse the way we did, miss out on the CL and waste all that money.

It could be years before we get another shot at top 4 while the top 4 go from strength to strength on and off the pitch.

Too many years of mismanagement has caught up with the club and turned us into an also ran. We finally got the chance last year to get back at the top table and fucked it all up
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Reeves

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2015, 08:15:59 pm »
A whole 2 players in the past 4 years.

Which is massive. When was the last time prior we sold one of our best players to a top 4 rival?
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2015, 08:17:04 pm »
We're at the level of a Tottenham now who do sometimes lose players to other English teams. And even Tottenham are building a new stadium now which will dwarf ours.

It will 'dwarf' ours by cost only, given the capacity will be only a few thousand more yet the cost will probably be over £350m more.

Offline SlowRap

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2015, 08:30:04 pm »
Top players see us as a stepping stone and they will do until we start winning things again.
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I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2015, 08:30:23 pm »


People don't realise how much of a fuck up it was last season to collapse the way we did, miss out on the CL and waste all that money.


Too many years of mismanagement has caught up with the club and turned us into an also ran. We finally got the chance last year to get back at the top table and fucked it all up

Oh i do. Am still absolutely livid and can't understand how Rodgers is still in charge. To go from 2nd (should have been 1st, this still annoys) to 6th and play so poorly against so many average/poor teams, to basically give up after the Utd defeat should have been unforgivable. Still don't understand why there wasn't a phone call from Boston at 5pm on the last day of the season.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2015, 08:36:51 pm »
No
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Lfsea

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2015, 09:03:17 pm »
Could you argue that the current inhabitants of the top 4 in the Prem have exhibited far more nepotistic employment practices than Liverpool have in the Murdoch era of football?

Offline keyop

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2015, 09:24:24 pm »
Once upon a time there was a football club that won everything, and no-one wanted to leave.

Then when they weren't winning everything, some players wanted to leave to go to clubs that were winning things.

The End.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2015, 09:30:28 pm »
Which scenario is most likely though?

What the fuck has that got to do with football?

Which of these was likely?

Liverpool win the European Cup in 2005
That West Ham would be leading us 3-2 in the 2006 FA Cup Final
A knackered Gerrard who can barely walk scores a screamer that puts us back  at 3-3 with the final kick of normal time
That we'd smash Arsenal out of site at Anfield and score 5
That we'd beat Real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate including a win in Madrid
That Man United would choose David Moyes as the successor to Ferguson
That Mourinho would get sacked by Chelsea before winning the Champions League
That Chelsea would win it under Roberto De Matteo
That Atheltico Madrid would win La Liga ahead of both Barcelona and Real Madrid and contest a European Cup Final Madrid derby
That Liverpool would be a win against Chelsea away from winning the league two seasons back
That. Liverpool would collapse completely last season after such a great season the year before
And so on...

The amazing thing about football is that the unlikely happens all the time. That's why I fucking love it.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2015, 09:34:23 pm »
Fuck me how do some of you lot get through the day.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2015, 09:50:18 pm »
We've sold a £28m player for £49m, so, yes, we are a selling club in this instance, but I'm OK with that.
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Offline soxfan

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2015, 09:51:11 pm »
If someone came in with 90M for Hazard, rest assured Chelsea would consider selling.  If Chelsea needed a keeper and came in with a huge number for De Gea, United would sell to them. If Chelsea handed over 90M for Aguero, City would consider selling.

Any one of us or last year's top 4 would sell to a rival except for the blood rivals (United vis a vis City or us). Everyone has a price.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2015, 10:10:32 pm »
Arsenal, United, Spurs, Chelsea have all cashed in players in recent years, CIty, Real and Barca have not
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Offline LiverpoolKopKings

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2015, 10:11:41 pm »
if we keep buying thwm cheap and selling them at a massive profit and the profit is used to buy better 1st team players that will eventually win us things I don't mind. the little c*nt however is yet another reason why i will never again buy a shirt and smear it by putting a player's name on it.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2015, 10:12:09 pm »
Arsenal, United, Spurs, Chelsea have all cashed in players in recent years, CIty, Real and Barca have not

Barca sold Sanchez to help fund Suarez. Plus are likely to sell Pedro this summer.

Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #108 on: July 13, 2015, 10:17:38 pm »
No.

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2015, 10:21:20 pm »
Arsenal, United, Spurs, Chelsea have all cashed in players in recent years, CIty, Real and Barca have not

Until a few years ago they didn't really have anyone in their squad a top club was even interested in.

Offline andy07

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2015, 10:21:38 pm »
No, we sell when we want to and near £50 million for a crock of shite is excellent business.
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Offline Butter Keks

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2015, 10:28:56 pm »
As long as the oil rich clubs are about then the vast majority of other clubs will be classed as selling clubs. Dortmund are a selling club, Atletico are a selling club, Pogba is already being deemed as being too big for Juventus, Porto are a selling club as are Benfica.

The point is it's not always about having success and keeping your players it's about how much money is in the game and how easily it changes hands. We all know Sterling isn't worth 50m, Mangala not even half of 40m, Di Maria has proven to be horrendously over priced and the list goes on.

As long as clubs like Man City can throw around ridiculous amounts of money at both clubs and players then the cycle will continue. The best thing we can do is re invest the money wisely and improve the team as a whole from the sale of one player, we had the chance last summer and fucked it up. We now have another shot this summer so let's at least see what transpires in the next few weeks before getting all arsey.

Offline redk84

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2015, 10:37:43 pm »
Don't think we are.

We have sold to top English rivals, but as others have said so do other teams...

More important for us is how we spend our money.
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Offline MrRaptorTurtle

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2015, 10:37:43 pm »
No.
Straight to the point.
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Offline MNAA

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2015, 10:56:22 pm »
Everbody has a price on his head. When a deal is right, it would be foolish not to do the deal. We don't sell to our rivals. We sell to our rivals flushed enough (and also foolish enough) to overpay

The thing is ... We need to stop overpaying too
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Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2015, 10:56:35 pm »
Every player has a valuation, it seems.  I suspect we'll sell to anyone, even United, if the price is right.

I'm fine with a player coming here for 3 years, moving the needle, and getting their move to Barca/Real/Bayern. It's worrying when players now see the big move as Arsenal/City/United/Chelsea, particularly when they've accomplished nothing for us.
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Offline Raaphael

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2015, 10:58:30 pm »
I`d say we`re a selling club, when we sell to our direct competitors in the same league. That a 20-year old feels that Liverpool isn`t exactly where he should be, is sad.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 11:02:13 pm by Raaphael »

Offline SwordInYourGut

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2015, 11:15:43 pm »
A club whose average finishing position is 5th is a selling club by default. You are finishing that low because some part of the team is not upto scratch. Given this scenario, when a team bids way over the value of your player, you take the money and try to improve the team so that it is one of the top 2-3 in the country. If you succeed, then you can tell everyone to fuck off and the players will also be happy to play for you.

Offline kennedy81

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2015, 11:18:27 pm »
To me, a 'selling club' is one that develops players with the sole intention of profiting from their sale, rather than using them to win trophies. Which of those we are, depends on the ambitions of our owners. I'd still like to think we're the latter.

It shouldn't be news to anyone that we're not in the top tier of big spenders, but we never have been.
What's important is who we buy. As someone on TAW mentioned today, no-one cares that we sold Keegan to Hamburg at his peak, because we ended up buying Kenny. The really rich clubs are just in a position to hoover up most of the top talent. That's just where football is right now.



Offline guyko21

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Re: Are we now a selling club (to our richer English rivals)?
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2015, 11:19:31 pm »
Every player has a valuation, it seems.  I suspect we'll sell to anyone, even United, if the price is right.

I'm fine with a player coming here for 3 years, moving the needle, and getting their move to Barca/Real/Bayern. It's worrying when players now see the big move as Arsenal/City/United/Chelsea, particularly when they've accomplished nothing for us.
Well put ... LFC should - at every level of the club - be straining every sinew to be perennial contenders and being considered part of a 'Big Five', never a stepping stone to a rival domestic club.  The credit for our history lasts a long time for supporters and the media, but as we've seen not so long for 20-something year old players looking for the biggest bucks.

I'm not anti Rodgers per se because 2013/14 was a remarkable season which we'd have won but for a fateful slip out of his control.  But if 2014/15 is repeated in style and substance, it would be difficult to justify keeping him if other proven managerial contenders were available.