Author Topic: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April  (Read 30883 times)

Offline lfcbob

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #40 on: April 4, 2013, 12:12:41 pm »
Nailed on Cole to score if he plays
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Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #41 on: April 4, 2013, 01:58:14 pm »
What we could expect from West Ham;

Includes the following infographics;

West Ham have the highest number of crosses per game. Below are 40 crosses they put in against Fulham.




Also, they claim not to be a long ball team but look how direct these long balls were against Spurs;



More analysis here: http://roryfitz9.webnode.com/news/liverpool-vs-west-ham/


Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #42 on: April 4, 2013, 02:13:01 pm »
What we could expect from West Ham;

Includes the following infographics;

West Ham have the highest number of crosses per game. Below are 40 crosses they put in against Fulham.




Also, they claim not to be a long ball team but look how direct these long balls were against Spurs;



More analysis here: http://roryfitz9.webnode.com/news/liverpool-vs-west-ham/

All long balls are, by definition, direct.

Here are Liverpool's long passes against Villa (from Squawka.com):



I think it would be safe to say that both diagrams are similar in density, no?
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Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #43 on: April 4, 2013, 02:28:39 pm »
No, long balls are balls that travel more than 25 yards.

I looked at this and if my point (made in the blog) is that its the point of origin and the destination that is the key factor.

Liverpool play alot of > 25yards but as you can see, the point of origin and destination are cross field and diagnol - West Ham's are direct 'back-to-front' and are the more archtypal 'long-ball'.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #44 on: April 4, 2013, 02:31:25 pm »
No, long balls are balls that travel more than 25 yards.

I looked at this and if my point (made in the blog) is that its the point of origin and the destination that is the key factor.

Liverpool play alot of > 25yards but as you can see, the point of origin and destination are cross field and diagnol - West Ham's are direct 'back-to-front' and are the more archtypal 'long-ball'.

Liverpool play a lot more lateral long passes, for sure. But we still play a lot of long passes. Do you know what percentage of our passes are long passes - and equally, do you know what the general percentage of passes a "long ball" team plays (I know, but I'm just interested to see if you have looked at it)?
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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #45 on: April 4, 2013, 02:36:41 pm »
Why are we playing on a Sunday....again!?
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Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #46 on: April 4, 2013, 02:36:52 pm »
A long pass can be Gerrard by-passing Lucas to hit Johnson on the right. Its a long pass but not the typical long ball. We hit these, West Ham hit alot of long balls, rather than long passes.

Teams in general play about 60-70 long balls per game. But this isnt the relevant stat as you point out, its how often do they hit a long pass and for West Ham (as I point out in the blog, is quite high at 1-in-5).

Liverpool's rate is closer to 1-in-9.



Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #47 on: April 4, 2013, 02:37:39 pm »
Why are we playing on a Sunday....again!?

Grand National is on Saturday.

We are not on Sky or ESPN, we'll have to look for a foreign station.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #48 on: April 4, 2013, 02:43:11 pm »
Grand National is on Saturday.

We are not on Sky or ESPN, we'll have to look for a foreign station.

Or sit in the stands...

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #49 on: April 4, 2013, 02:46:10 pm »
A long pass can be Gerrard by-passing Lucas to hit Johnson on the right. Its a long pass but not the typical long ball. We hit these, West Ham hit alot of long balls, rather than long passes.

Teams in general play about 60-70 long balls per game. But this isnt the relevant stat as you point out, its how often do they hit a long pass and for West Ham (as I point out in the blog, is quite high at 1-in-5).

Liverpool's rate is closer to 1-in-9.

Opta might qualify that pass from Gerrard as a "long ball", but in technical terms, the long ball is hit from back to front. West Ham certainly do more of that than Liverpool, but they also pass short too. We're not looking at Cambridge United under John Beck here. They can play a bit too.

In total numbers, though, West Ham play roughly the same amount of long passes per game as Liverpool (per Whoscored.com). The difference is that they play to depth, whereas we play a lot to width:

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Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #50 on: April 4, 2013, 02:53:58 pm »
You might want to check but 'long ball' in that table is a pass of over 25 yards. It does not take the direction into account.

In the blog, I picked the long balls in the Spurs game because Spurs play a high line and pressing game. Liverpool try win the ball back pretty quickly and given we are at home, West Ham might try to bypass this 'pressing' and not play alot in midfield. As shown in the Spurs graphic, their long balls were in fact that - long balls, back to front quickly.

West Ham dont play a short game - its about playing as much of the game in the oppositions final 3rd as possible and therefore, they look to get the ball there quickly and then start to play. Once 'there', they then get bodies in the box and put in there.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #51 on: April 4, 2013, 02:59:57 pm »
You might want to check but 'long ball' in that table is a pass of over 25 yards. It does not take the direction into account.

In the blog, I picked the long balls in the Spurs game because Spurs play a high line and pressing game. Liverpool try win the ball back pretty quickly and given we are at home, West Ham might try to bypass this 'pressing' and not play alot in midfield. As shown in the Spurs graphic, their long balls were in fact that - long balls, back to front quickly.

West Ham dont play a short game - its about playing as much of the game in the oppositions final 3rd as possible and therefore, they look to get the ball there quickly and then start to play. Once 'there', they then get bodies in the box and put in there.

They certainly do, but there is a world of difference between "using the long ball" and "being a long-ball team". By the definition above, Rafa could be considered a long ball manager, but we know that not to be true, yes?
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Offline DanA

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #52 on: April 4, 2013, 03:06:07 pm »
Opta might qualify that pass from Gerrard as a "long ball", but in technical terms, the long ball is hit from back to front. West Ham certainly do more of that than Liverpool, but they also pass short too. We're not looking at Cambridge United under John Beck here. They can play a bit too.

In total numbers, though, West Ham play roughly the same amount of long passes per game as Liverpool (per Whoscored.com). The difference is that they play to depth, whereas we play a lot to width:



Just looking at the long pass chart and the table you've given and it looks to me like a team that plays long ball. They seem to want to create as many aerial challenges as possible. They attack through set pieces, put more crosses in per game than any other Premier League team and are very direct. Their primary attack is Nolan behind Carroll. I think that says a lot.

Yes they have some talented players and are a Premier Team capable at times of playing good football but I do think their strengths in terms of game style and personal definitely revolve around direct play and aerial challenges. In that respect it's a terrible match up for us.
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Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #53 on: April 4, 2013, 03:09:35 pm »
They certainly do, but there is a world of difference between "using the long ball" and "being a long-ball team". By the definition above, Rafa could be considered a long ball manager, but we know that not to be true, yes?

I wouldn't want to put a Rafa team and Allardyce team into the same debate ;)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #54 on: April 4, 2013, 03:14:59 pm »
Just looking at the long pass chart and the table you've given and it looks to me like a team that plays long ball. They seem to want to create as many aerial challenges as possible. They attack through set pieces, put more crosses in per game than any other Premier League team and are very direct. Their primary attack is Nolan behind Carroll. I think that says a lot.

Yes they have some talented players and are a Premier Team capable at times of playing good football but I do think their strengths in terms of game style and personal definitely revolve around direct play and aerial challenges. In that respect it's a terrible match up for us.

I think our definitions are probably a bit different then, although you do have me thinking. For me,  a Long Ball team is a team that kicks every ball forward without thought (kick and rush) and playing the percentages for the knockdowns and set-pieces and having literally no consideration of anything other than driving the ball forward to gain territory. I think Allardyce is a lot more subtle than that, and there is actually a thought behind their long passes.

As for the game - it really is set up to be a tough one for us. Everything is set up to make things difficult for our own play - the only consideration for me is that we're at home, and we will probably have the best of the ball for the first 15 minutes, and if we can make that count, we might pull away early.
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Offline Kop10

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #55 on: April 4, 2013, 03:17:23 pm »


They are in the bottom three for short passes as well, alongside Stoke and Reading. If they were statistically high in those, then perhaps one could make a case for them being a mix and match side.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #56 on: April 4, 2013, 03:18:32 pm »
Allardyce and Rafa are similar in that they both try and control space and press the opposition and both play with tempo but they're also very different. Allardyce is happy to consistently create aerial contests and try and get on the end of them or pressure the opposition into a mistake. He creates chaos and creates intelligent movement patterns inside this choas to ensure his team is better organized in those situations. Rafa although direct does not do this. He also has intelligent movement but it revolves around precise play both in pressing and transition. Both have a high tempo, but both are very different approaches.
« Last Edit: April 4, 2013, 03:24:00 pm by DanA »
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Offline DanA

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #57 on: April 4, 2013, 03:30:55 pm »
I think our definitions are probably a bit different then, although you do have me thinking. For me,  a Long Ball team is a team that kicks every ball forward without thought (kick and rush) and playing the percentages for the knockdowns and set-pieces and having literally no consideration of anything other than driving the ball forward to gain territory. I think Allardyce is a lot more subtle than that, and there is actually a thought behind their long passes.

As for the game - it really is set up to be a tough one for us. Everything is set up to make things difficult for our own play - the only consideration for me is that we're at home, and we will probably have the best of the ball for the first 15 minutes, and if we can make that count, we might pull away early.

I get where you are coming from it's not simply a kick and rush team. Perhaps punt and hunt is a more apt description?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #58 on: April 4, 2013, 03:40:16 pm »
I get where you are coming from it's not simply a kick and rush team. Perhaps punt and hunt is a more apt description?

Ha ha I like that! "Punt and Hunt" :D
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Offline Rory Fitzgerald

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #59 on: April 4, 2013, 03:44:50 pm »
Ha ha I like that! "Punt and Hunt" :D

I thought that was very good as well :)

Offline trembles97

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #60 on: April 4, 2013, 04:56:33 pm »
Reading over PoP's new tactical thread, I'm thinking more and more that this is the game that we should look at Coutinho, Suarez, and Sturridge as an attacking three and drop Downing to the bench.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #61 on: April 4, 2013, 04:58:51 pm »
Stopping Matt Jarvis is key

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #62 on: April 4, 2013, 10:20:35 pm »
Hope you don't me sharing that with a few West Ham supporters that I know!! :D

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #63 on: April 4, 2013, 10:32:56 pm »
Really hoping we play well and beat them easily, like to see us ahead so we could get jonjo and Suso on.
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Offline AULD-OLDIE

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #64 on: April 4, 2013, 11:13:24 pm »
Stopping Matt Jarvis is key

Get Enrique to show him his body !!!
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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #65 on: April 4, 2013, 11:27:25 pm »
For the love of God Brendan bench Downing please. We see some excellent players these days getting benched its not a big deal.

Last two games he was nowhere to be seen and we were playing Southampton and Villa not Barca and Real.

Sturridge scored a lot of goals for Chelsea on the right of 433, Suarez played decent amount on the right of 433 for Ajax. There are options, we dont need his defensive work that much as O`Brien or whoever gets to play there will be told not to be adventurous.

Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #66 on: April 4, 2013, 11:42:14 pm »
For the love of God Brendan bench Downing please. We see some excellent players these days getting benched its not a big deal.

This might not be the game to drop Downing.  One of West Ham's main threats will come from Matt Jarvis down the left so Downing tracking back and helping Johnson on the right will be important for us if we want to limit them pumping the ball into our box.  I thought he played quite well against Villa but personally I wouldn't change a winning team anyway, think the one we put out at Villa has enough to beat a team who will be without their in-form biggest threat on Sunday.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #67 on: April 5, 2013, 02:09:59 am »
Matt Jarvis has flopped for them. Not too sure if he's picked up some form in the last month or not but he was horrid before that.

We struggle to defend in the air. This game will not be easy and they'll most definitely score if they continue to whip in crosses. Should we play 3 at the back?
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Offline Number 7

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #68 on: April 5, 2013, 07:23:35 am »
For the love of God Brendan bench Downing please. We see some excellent players these days getting benched its not a big deal.

Last two games he was nowhere to be seen and we were playing Southampton and Villa not Barca and Real.

Sturridge scored a lot of goals for Chelsea on the right of 433, Suarez played decent amount on the right of 433 for Ajax. There are options, we dont need his defensive work that much as O`Brien or whoever gets to play there will be told not to be adventurous.

Downing won't get benched against West Ham. He probably won't get benched for the rest of the season.

At this moment time, I don't think he should either. He's justifying his place in the team, and has more upside than downside to warrant him playing week in and week out. He's stretches the play using the width of the pitch. He retains the ball, doesn't do anything extravagant but retains it. He also offers solid protection to Johnson, which we need because Johnson pushes further up the pitch.

If you had Sturridge on the right I don't think all those things would happen. Sturridge is good player and I've been impressed by him generally, but with Henderson seemingly a nessecity now, Sturridge may have to be the odd one out. I cannot see Coutinho or Downing getting dropped.
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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #69 on: April 5, 2013, 08:16:12 am »
Hope nobody's posting in here before doing their duties as an internet terrorist...    :wave

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=304846.0


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Make your opinion known.


Offline Snusmumriken

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #70 on: April 5, 2013, 08:17:27 am »
Downing won't get benched against West Ham. He probably won't get benched for the rest of the season.

At this moment time, I don't think he should either. He's justifying his place in the team, and has more upside than downside to warrant him playing week in and week out. He's stretches the play using the width of the pitch. He retains the ball, doesn't do anything extravagant but retains it. He also offers solid protection to Johnson, which we need because Johnson pushes further up the pitch.

If you had Sturridge on the right I don't think all those things would happen. Sturridge is good player and I've been impressed by him generally, but with Henderson seemingly a nessecity now, Sturridge may have to be the odd one out. I cannot see Coutinho or Downing getting dropped.

I'm in the same thoughts, just hope Rodgers doesn't think he must get Sturridge in hence going for the weird 4-2-4 again. Surely we can all se the dilemma with having 4 attackers in good form, hopefully Rodgers doens't fall into temptation once again  :P

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #71 on: April 5, 2013, 08:19:04 am »
 Hope nobody's posting in here before doing their duties as an internet terrorist...   :wave

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=304846.0


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Some of you asked for the hounds to be unleashed.

This is a chance to batter LJMU with the full force of public opinion.

Make your opinion known.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #72 on: April 5, 2013, 08:26:35 am »
Downing won't get benched against West Ham. He probably won't get benched for the rest of the season.

At this moment time, I don't think he should either. He's justifying his place in the team, and has more upside than downside to warrant him playing week in and week out. He's stretches the play using the width of the pitch. He retains the ball, doesn't do anything extravagant but retains it. He also offers solid protection to Johnson, which we need because Johnson pushes further up the pitch.

If you had Sturridge on the right I don't think all those things would happen. Sturridge is good player and I've been impressed by him generally, but with Henderson seemingly a nessecity now, Sturridge may have to be the odd one out. I cannot see Coutinho or Downing getting dropped.
Downing has been  very good recently but I'd be tempted due to his lack of goals to bench him and go with A front 3 of Suarez Sturridge and Coutinho with Suarez and Sturridge interchanging

Offline No666

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #73 on: April 5, 2013, 08:34:49 am »
 What part of Downing hasn't been discussed enough already? The hair growing out of his right toenail?

if you haven't seen this one - get on it, too, would you? Thanks, good people.


http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=304846.0



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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #74 on: April 5, 2013, 08:56:21 am »


Just took this, spot what's wrong.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #75 on: April 5, 2013, 09:00:39 am »
Thats about as close as Sky Sports have been to getting something right actually.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #76 on: April 5, 2013, 09:17:13 am »
Ideally I would like to see Johnson rested and or sturridge on for downing.  I really miss seeing the threat from the right wing.  Johnson's runs are great, but his final pass/ decision  is so poor, and downing is much improved, but he is no threat at all in imho.  I know they provide balance, but I don't think Johnsons runs provide greater benefit than the problems the hole in defense causes.

« Last Edit: April 5, 2013, 10:18:22 am by FoolForPool »

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #77 on: April 5, 2013, 12:12:46 pm »
Probably worth noting that Luis Suarez is on 9 yellow cards for the season.  If he gets booked against West Ham, he will miss the Reading and Chelsea games.

If he avoids a booking against West Ham and is booked against Reading, he'll miss the Chelsea and Newcastle games.

If he avoids a booking in his next two games (West Ham and Reading) the second amnesty comes in to place and the 9 yellow cards are scrapped which means he won't face the prospect of missing 2 games (incuding the Everton game!!)

Get the game won by half time and sub him off. The possibility of European football is dwindling with each game, but while it's still possible, we still need to go for it. Chelsea and Newcastle are going to be difficult games so we're going to need him.
Craig Burnley V West Ham - WEST HAM WIN - INCORRECT

Offline macca888

  • Macca the Militant Illiterate Gnok. Chief Football Hack aka macca888. Jacqui Smith and Anne Widdecombe, in any order. Or together. He's not fussy. Overdue with Crosby Nick. Recently elevated to status Sir Precious C*nt.
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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #78 on: April 5, 2013, 04:23:25 pm »
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=304846.0


http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=304831.0


If you haven't signed these petitions and you are

A. Discussing whether Skrtel will be here next season
B. Discussing whether Downing is the saviour of the right wing or shite with his right foot
C. Discussing whether Sturridge has gt an orange or a white bib ob ib training
D. Discussing whether season ticket prices are going to be £1,000,000 for sitting on the roof in the future
or E. blah fucking blah some more about blah fucking blah taht you've blah fucking blahed about 100 times before.


You are a useless selfish c*nt who should be ashamed of themselves. THIS is what being a real supporter is all about rght at this moment. Not pissing and moaning about something you can have no control; doing something you can actually have an effect on that is important to our city, our history and EVERY supporter we have. If you don't agree with me, you're an even bigger c*nt. If you're offended by me saying that, guess what? I have a pile of flying fucks here and I'm not giving a single one of them.
Macca resplendent!
A colossus bestriding the
moral high ground as ever.

Offline Anfield Kopite

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Re: Preview: Liverpool v West Ham - Sunday 7th April
« Reply #79 on: April 5, 2013, 06:33:59 pm »
Well said Macca.