Author Topic: Not good enough for LFC  (Read 6785 times)

Offline Tarpaulin

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Not good enough for LFC
« on: February 27, 2004, 02:56:41 pm »
You’ve probably read loads of articles and posts with a similar title to this over the last 6 to 12 months; you’ve also probably read all the opposing articles and posts to this as well – each day, wading through post after post of either positiveness or negativeness towards Houllier. I’m going to run through my thoughts on it all, going right back to the beginning.

When Houllier came to Anfield, like most people, I thought “Who the **** is he?”. This smart, well-spoken French fella, who seemed to know a fair bit about out club, and seemed to have the knack of saying the things the fans wanted to hear. The fact that he had a “Red heart” went down well with Kopites, and his links to Liverpool in his past whilst teaching here were warm and genuine.

The man seemed like he could be “The One”. As Liverpool fans we are used to success [well, those of us over 15 year old] we are always looking for “the next Shankly or Paisley” or the “Next Dalglish or Souness”. Our history is steeped with tradition, success and great players and memories. We want it to keep on rolling and rolling and for the wheels to never stop let alone come off. Houllier was “the fella who was responsible for France winning the World Cup” after all. At the time, the fact that 2 of the best French players of their era had been dropped and castigated by Houllier went un-announced, maybe this was stored in the lockers by the tabloid press for a future date, when it could be dug up and used as a whip against Houllier. 

Things went ok…Nicely, nicely with Roy Evans – although it was clear Houllier was wearing the kecks in the relationship - and the season finished with another mediocre end to another mediocre season. Then Evans was gone and Ged was left to his own devices. The chequebook was opened and players started to come and go…some high profile, some less so high profile…but we believed in what Houllier was doing. We needed this fresh approach, this ruthlessness that would rid our great club of the “Spice boys” and bring in the right men to do the job. All along the quotes came thick and fast ...

"The problem here is that players think they can drink. Drinking alcohol is as silly as putting diesel in a racing car."

"I'm very demanding in terms of work and spirit. I think I'm a very nice man but I can be a very nasty man if someone is not behaving right. If someone upsets the harmony of what we are trying to do, I am 10 times nastier than anyone else."

as Ged started to rid the club of its bigheaded stars.

"One day we will beat Manchester United. I promise you that."

"You can't build a cathedral in a day. A look at the club's history tells you these things take time."

were quotes that Kopites wanted to hear, pointing toward a successful and promising future. Houllier was starting to be compared in some quarters to the legend, Shankly. To be honest, I thought the comparisons were not only very, very quick, but also unjustified. Purely on the back of some wonderfully crafted comment, the man was starting to be lifted onto a pedestal by some fans, and it would only lead to a long fall off the top if anything was to go pear shaped.

Then the success came. The treble, the super cup, Reds leading England to a 5-1 win in Germany, the Charity Shield. Houllier was already a legend for some people. I admit, at the end of that season it was the 1st time in a decade that I have felt 100% that Liverpool were back. Houllier was the man, and the players were kings. In light of this, we gained many more adorning fans, and our existing fans made banners of praise for the manager and players of that season [myself included – with the £1600 Houllier banner!].

The treble was dedicated to the fans by Houllier, and everyone will remember the bus journey through Town, and the hundred of thousands of proud Reds who were there that day.

'I don't live in the past. I live in the present and I look to the future. But I take lessons from the past."

Things looked great, and with the above quote we all thought Houllier would push us on to that next level. The Championship.

Champions League football beckoned and the days of top-notch teams at Anfield again was something that couldn’t be missed. As fans we were star struck and in awe at times, as Houllier guided our players [some of which we didn’t have a clue who they were when we signed them] through the group stages.

Then in November 2001, as we all know, Houllier heart problems almost took his life, let alone his lively hood and he was sidelined from football for several months.

"Will football ever get out of my life? I tell you straight away. No! ...... My whole life is about football."

"There are those who say maybe I should forget about football. Maybe I should forget about breathing."

More legendary quotes from Ged, and even from his hospital bed he was able to rouse the Reds support, when we found out he was secretly listening to matches in his bed on a walkman. We were proud to have a string and spirited man, and an obviously proud Red as our manager.

During the months without Houllier we had Thommo in charge and this is where I think cracks began to show. Houllier's teams were always so regimented, so disciplined. They moved forward as a unit, and defended as a unit. It was simple stifling football, but it had worked. When Thommo came in, obviously so did some of his ideas and morals. Slightly more fluidity, and flair was seen, and in the early part of his short reign we had some superb football, and great results. I think this opened the eyes of some fans to what Houllier had been doing at the club. But most grinned and bared it, because we had been successful, and were sure we would evolve in due course. Houllier had always said that Liverpool needed to cure the defensive frailties when he arrived, and as fans we definitely agreed. But I expected him having proven to the players that they could operate a tight ship, and win games 1-0, therefore giving them better self confidence when the need to use those tactics arose, that then allow them to develop an attacking flair whilst keeping it closed at the back.

It never happened.

Houllier came back and we carried on with the tried and tested tactics and formations. Then after a short while came the point where I think the wheels started to really stick. Basel away in the Champions League. It was a horrible 1st half performance which only rightly kicked the players to produce better in the 2nd half. Gerrard was hauled off after a terrible performance, and in the after match press conference Houllier openly criticised the players heavily. Pushing blame off himself and firmly onto the 11 players in red.

A small section of fans [not just in the ground but at home watching on TV] that night were awoken to what was happening. Houllier would always gratefully accept any accolades and praise of his team with open arms, always putting himself as the reason as to why things went well. Press conferences would include “I told the boys at half time….”, “I decided to change…..”, and “I have said to my players…..”. Yet, when things were going badly he would push the criticism away from himself and his decisions and back onto the players. [Who I agree do have a large part to play in what happens, but not entirely]…He would also regularly blame 3rd parties or refereeing decisions. Sometimes when he had no real grounds to do so. It was starting to get embarrassing listening to his after match comments, and I and many reds would stand in the alehouse post match and cringe at what Ged was saying. No accountability was the key!.

To go back to where I started. This season has been nothing short of terrible. Poor performances, players looking under motivated and not bothered, tactics being alarmingly exploited and the opposition have come to understand the Liverpool style of play, players playing in all manor of positions, the blaming of anyone and anything for the poor results, the negative approach and the rubbish talk that accompanies it that we are actually playing some “great stuff” [yeah, fair enough, sometimes we do knock it round well in patches, but not consistently for a number of games like the other top sides]

Liverpool has one of the best scouting teams in the world, and they do a great job finding some real diamonds. But if I was a scout, id be mightily annoyed that the players I have found, recommended and then see bought by the club, have been played in every position bar the one I found the in. Diouf for example. He was scouted and deemed good enough for LFC as a striker. He was bought as a striker, and now Houllier has had him on the left, on the right, and sometimes behind the front player/s.

Biscan is another one, and I’ll let you into a little fact that has been flying round Liverpool for a while [I’m sure most will know]. After training one day at Melwood prior to a home game on the Saturday, Houllier had his usual team meeting and in front of the entire squad announced that Biscan could be the best centre defender in Europe. [Some stories say that he said “he was the best”…but i've been advised that’s not quite true] Some of the players had a little snigger at the comment, and two of them burst out laughing. Tells you all you need to know really. Biscan was bought and scouted as a centre midfielder, and supposedly a very good one at that. But Houllier, rather than admit a transfer blunder, and that Biscan doesn’t cut it at LFC, he has converted him into a centre back [a position many feel we are week in depth in] so that he could be given a 2nd chance to shine.

I have paid a lot of money over the years [and most of my match going years have been in the unsuccessful 90’s] to watch Liverpool, and at this moment in time I don’t feel that I or any fans are consistently getting value for that money. When I walk into Anfield I'm 110% behind all the players, regardless. I sing, I shout, I do everything expected of me as a loyal fan, but some of the people I’m paying to watch don’t do what they are paid to do. Is that right?

As you can see from my post, my previous posts and from the fact that I have made the most expensive flag in football history….I like Gerard Houllier. He brought the club up a step, and took us back close to where we belong. He installed a lot of important morals in the players and the club was once again the club I was so proud to have supported all my life. But liking him as a man doesn’t mean I have to accept what is going on now. I don’t think he should be at Liverpool Football Club.

I am happy for everything he has achieved for us, and I’m sad that when he does go, it wont be in the high esteem it would have been a couple of years ago, but stubbornness is something that will drag the club further and further. I was upset after the AGM that Moores offered himself before Houllier, and that Ged didn’t openly appreciate that. Moores, a man who is without doubt Red through and through, and has been loyal to us for many, many years, was allowed to be put up there to be shot down. I felt for the man.

After 2001, we hit a plateau, and performance and weaknesses started to show, in the past 18 months we have slowly been slipping back down, and without action we will end up were we were when Ged took over with Evans.

When you look around Anfield on a match day now, you see faces of despair, and that’s only 5 minutes into the game and its still 0-0. Fans don’t know where a goal or performances are coming from. The atmosphere is dead, fans cant be bothered….no motivation from what happening on the field is largely responsible. Banners, Boo’s and spray paint on walls is something reds aren’t used to, but are now seeing more and more, as fan after fan starts to open up to what is going on. Most fans now look forward to the pre match and after match bevvy more than the game itself. It’s the day out, rather than the game.

Sadly, Houllier was built up too much, the pedestal was high and the fall from it was long and dramatic. He has too large a percentage of the fans to be able to get back, and the players in turn have lost a little something in Houllier. It’s a vicious circle. The players will dislike playing at Anfield because of the atmosphere against them, Houllier will blame the players, and the player will in turn loose their faith in Houllier. It’s an uncorrectable position.

So it is with a heavy heart, and a look to the future that I would wave Ged away from Anfield. You took us as far as you could with your style of management, and skills, but now it is time to leave.

As you said yourself:

"We don't destroy our heroes today when we worshipped them yesterday"

I will be picking the stitching off the flag this weekend, and the name Houllier will be taken from it.

Allez, Allez ....

© Roper 2004
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 03:25:16 pm by Rushian »

Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: Not Good enough for LFC
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2004, 03:20:28 pm »

 He never said a truer word than when he said, "Winning the treble is probably too much, too soon". (In effect)

 I'll support him 100% until he or the board decide it's time for a change.

 For what it's worth...

 :)

87:13

Offline Tarpaulin

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2004, 03:25:36 pm »
A reply!!!! ;D

Maybe cos its so fuckin long hey?

I see someone has got their editing fingers on today? That you Benjamin, or is it young Steven? :wave

Offline Rashid

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2004, 03:28:56 pm »
My biggest problem is that I can never say exactly what I mean - I am not a good writer. I never really had affection for GH but understood that despite my rantings the man was perfect for Liverpool.

I, myself can never forgive him driving Robbie out (which now looks a good move), the style of play and the the Jari Litmanen and Emile Heskey debacles respectively, and now the 18 months of mediocrity and excuses. I also want him out.

Roper - thats the best post I have ever seen on the matter - excellently put. Thank you.

Offline Col

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2004, 03:56:45 pm »
Great read Andy.

Have recently been thinking much the same myself. We have the players, but not the system, belief or mentality.

Time for change come the end of the season, I think.
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Offline Life

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2004, 04:07:30 pm »
Nothing has been more telling than the slow conversion on here of the die-hards - slowly moving from the pro-Ged camp, to the anti-.

Without wishing to elevate some posters above others, seeing Evo, Wooltonian and now you post this kind of critique shows just how many fans he's lost.

I sang "allez allez" last night for the man.  But at the end of the season I'll be hoping the board take it literally.
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Offline Tarpaulin

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2004, 04:11:45 pm »
Quote
I sang "allez allez" last night for the man.  But at the end of the season I'll be hoping the board take it literally.

Exactly mate.


Offline MC-Red

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2004, 05:17:26 pm »
Great post always good to put things in chronological order.

I personally am still waiting for the end of the season.  We have the UEFA cup and a fascinating last 7 games of the season.  It's how we do and look as a team in these games that will determine Ged's fate I don't think the script is finished yet.

Arsenal  Barclaycard Premiership  (A) 15:00  - 
apr, 12 Charlton Athletic  Barclaycard Premiership  (H) 15:00  - 
apr, 17 Fulham  Barclaycard Premiership  (H) 15:00  - 
apr, 24 Manchester United  Barclaycard Premiership  (A) 15:00  - 
may 
date opponent competition home/away F-A
may, 01 Middlesbrough  Barclaycard Premiership  (H) 15:00  - 
may, 08 Birmingham City  Barclaycard Premiership  (A) 15:00  - 
may, 15 Newcastle United 


That is a formidable run of games that could be an opportunity for this team to show what it is about.  I can guarantee if we play all seven in top gear all will be forgiven.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2004, 05:50:50 pm »
Quote
Sadly, Houllier was built up too much, the pedestal was high and the fall from it was long and dramatic. He has too large a percentage of the fans to be able to get back, and the players in turn have lost a little something in Houllier. It’s a vicious circle. The players will dislike playing at Anfield because of the atmosphere against them, Houllier will blame the players, and the player will in turn loose their faith in Houllier. It’s an uncorrectable position.


Andy - an excellent post but I will take issue with this...
Alas it was all of us and the media who built him up when he may have not wanted that. And it was us that now beat him with the same stick.

In saying that, when this season he said his vision of attacking football had appeared, I genuinely had hope. And against Newcastle, and last night, or at Everton, or Birmingham at home, or Everton at home, or at Blackburn both matches, or v Arsenal, we played attacking good football.
The trouble is that it is a new system and Houllier all too often plays players out of their position or doesn't let them play consistently and there are players who haven't turned up.
Yet for all that, and his opening of his mouth when he shouldn't !, we are still capable of good stuff, that we want to see. The atmosphere has been better this year for a lot of the time than it was last season, and yes it has been poor too. But we have gone between frustration and excitement - something that rarely happened last season, and for that, I am still optimistic.

However I thought the Titanic looked in good shape ;)
Yep.

Offline redmonkey

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2004, 07:55:46 pm »
An excellent post, but I'm not certain I agree completely

I too have been pro-GH and also find my support for him on the wane. 

He has made some excellent decisions, such as ruthlessly sorting out the defence, easing out Fowler and not buying Anelka

But he has also made some bad errors - the stubborn persistence with Heskey and Murphy, driving out Litmanen and Babbel and turning his nose up at Duff

Dumping Litmanen and Babbel was GH's biggest mistake. 
They are two world class players and when I enviously watch the 30-something Bergkamp conducting the Arsenal opera, I wonder what a different team we would be if Litmanen (a better player than Bergkamp IMO) was still at LFC

It also left a bad taste in my mouth to see GH 'getting tough' with dedicated professionals like Babbel and Litmanen, while indulging others who are simply not good enough

But like MC-Red, I think that GH can reprieve himself by getting the team to play the football that we all want to see and getting the results that we need

As hinsey has said, some performances this season have shown that we can play top drawer football. 

But GH must realise there is going to have to be some mighty performances to get us back into the Champions League and also to erase the memory of the Portsmouth horror show





Offline AdamS

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2004, 08:55:26 pm »
Good post Andy. You can tell it came from the heart.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say though!

Biscan was one of the most sought after players in Europe when Ged managed to sign him. I think some large official body had him rated as Europes 7th best prospect of becoming a great footballer (the actual fact excapes me), so I don't feel this would have been a gaffe by Houllier! Also the training ground thing is just heresay!

Diouff was not bought as a forward for me, he was bought as an attacking player, but had rarely played as a centre forward before we signed him. And remember Henry was bought as a winger.

As for the "Ged quotes" - you can pick apart quotes all you like, he probably said equally stupid things whenj we weren't struggling a bit, but nobody cared then! And Ferguson is the worst in the world for blaming everyone but his players or himself & it's done him no harm!

I think it was a very strange time to post this after Stevie G's show of support last night, but fair does for not posting it after a defeat! :wave

Don't pick the stitching out yet - you never know!

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Offline Ian-TN

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2004, 09:00:52 pm »
Dont agree with alot of that mate, good post like but some things I believe you have passed off as facts when its your opinion.

IMO we went more defensive under Thommo than we was under Ged at the time.

When people watched Dioufy were was he seen to be playin? Most of the times I have watched him he plays as a winger. If Ged believes he has more potential as a winger than as a striker then I back him in his assessment. He is the one who sees the lad day in day out, after all.

How much different was the side, personal wise, in the 2nd half at Basle as it was in the 1st? I dont think it was that different. So who else, apart from the bleedin players could take the responsibility for the 1st half?
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Offline Ian-TN

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2004, 09:17:20 pm »
Don't pick the stitching out yet - you never know!

Have to 2nd that idea though.
To an interpreter, regarding excited Italian journalists:
'Just tell them I completely disagree with everything they say.'

Offline Tarpaulin

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2004, 09:33:09 pm »
Each entitled to their opinion....its what makes interesting debate.
;)

Offline smicer07

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2004, 09:54:17 pm »
Pro LFC=Pro GH in my book, and taking the stitching out, well that's a bit pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.

Offline zowie

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2004, 09:48:09 am »
  :wave Good post Andy luv!
Although I don't agree entirely to it alot of it I can see what you mean!

Your timming was a bit strange though!  ;)
I sang ALLEZ for the man and to show the much needed respect and united support that has lacked of late, however that doesn't mean I don't see his limitations as far as his capacity as manager lie!

I would like to say though that regardless of the outcome regarding him staying or going he has acheived IMO enough to warrant remaining on your flagg whatever the result be!

He is like it or not a big part of Our clubs History present situation aside!

btw while I got yer here are you still sendin me the HJC flames in A4 luv have not heard anythin from you?
"SHANKS"THE FATHER"LIVERPOOL" THE TEAM "YNWA" THE REALITY NEVER THE DREAM!

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2004, 10:19:58 am »
Rank and File, Andy
as against
Wank and Bile

Living descendant of Sir Thomas Brodrick, Vice Admiral of the Red in the 18th Century

Offline Tarpaulin

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2004, 11:14:50 am »
Pro LFC=Pro GH in my book, and taking the stitching out, well that's a bit pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.

How many flags do you see at games now that have Dalglish's name on it [bar the shrine one that has the names of most of our great attackers on it], or Fagan, or Paisley, or even Shankly?

Flags move with the times, and so what I am saying is, So am I!

Your entitled to your opinion though lad!

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2004, 03:43:38 pm »
Rank and File, Andy
as against
Wank and Bile



aren't they Man utd solicitors ?
Yep.

Offline Spartacus.

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2004, 03:52:45 pm »

How many flags do you see at games now that have Dalglish's name on it [bar the shrine one that has the names of most of our great attackers on it], or Fagan, or Paisley, or even Shankly?

Flags move with the times, and so what I am saying is, So am I!

Your entitled to your opinion though lad!

hmmmm but how many actually go and remove the stitching from the flags that at the time they believed in?  I can see people may move on, make a new flag and rarely bring the old ones but when we have a flag day on the Kop and the boys bring their banners on mass I see plenty to represent the passing years.  Personally don’t understand the unstitching of something that you believed in at the time, regardless of where we are now.

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Offline hide5seek

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2004, 04:54:12 pm »
Pro LFC=Pro GH in my book, and taking the stitching out, well that's a bit pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.

Pro Liverpool FC means wanting the best.
Sad to say GED is not the best.

Are you SmicerlovesJakeya?

plasticscouser

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #21 on: March 1, 2004, 01:21:11 pm »
agree with redmonkey, when he brought in Jari i thought finally a wprld class playmaker exactly what we need. He then hardly gave him a run in the side longer than 5 games or so, persisted with Ivanhoe Heskey and then just let him go, thats when 1st started question Le Profs wisdom and have been doing so ever since. A great man, but unfortunately only a decent manager.   

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #22 on: March 2, 2004, 09:09:52 pm »
ged has to leave. he served us well but he cant get us any further we should thank him for what he brought us and appoint a more ambitionic manager with an attacking style of play that fit liverpool.

(im sorry if im not undestood,im not from an english speaking country)

Offline Ian72LFC

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #23 on: March 4, 2004, 12:04:40 am »
Pro LFC=Pro GH in my book, and taking the stitching out, well that's a bit pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.

:wanker

Offline B9

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Re: Not good enough for LFC
« Reply #24 on: March 4, 2004, 09:52:37 am »
I, myself can never forgive him driving Robbie out (which now looks a good move),

Rash, he offered him a new contract by the time Robbie asked for a transfer.

That is hardly 'driving out'.