Author Topic: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC  (Read 62414 times)

Offline -Daws-

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #80 on: November 4, 2013, 12:37:11 am »
Toure and Skrtel with a few fundamental errors and two conceded? Will Brendan see fit for Aggers return for one or both of these two, if at all?

Mind you, the same sort of fundamental errors were made by Lucas and Gerrard, so if Agger comes in, surely so must Allen?

I'll be honest, I would like to see these two come in for the next game against a poor, lazy Fulham side, and two of the above names get a rest.
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Offline RayPhilAlan

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #81 on: November 4, 2013, 12:43:59 am »
I specifically asked about this in the "You are the Ref" thread

I think we'd all have preferred it if Sagna hadn't been yellow-carded and the goal had been awarded.

Worst case scenario - we take the quick free kick, Henderson fails to score because Szczesney doesn't stop playing, no booking for Sagna. That could have happened, but I suspect Sagna's next foul would have resulted in a booking for persistent offending, and we'd have been no worse off.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #82 on: November 4, 2013, 01:02:43 am »

I thought Brendan should of abandoned the wing back system when Johnson cried off. I understand that he will have drilled the team before hand with this system but if he felt it was ok to abandon it after 45 minutes then he probably should of thought it was ok beforehand.


I am not so sure about changing the system pre-match.  Also, Rogers did not leave London saying we lost due to a failure of formation.  In fact, he mentioned at his post-game comments that there was much success in it during the match and the previous one.  His point, he called it a coaching point, was that Arsenal were better with ball (control), the formation's weakness is on the flanks and when we pressed their midfield:

1) It needed to be tighter (too much time for a mobile, good passing team who can move the ball quickly)
2) we had to find a way to disrupt them finding space on the sides in 3-5-2 - it was too easy
3) Loosely translating Rogers - we probably wasted midfield energy by using token pressure which leads to tired legs
4) we still were dangerous at times and had our chances


 
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #83 on: November 4, 2013, 01:47:55 am »
I'm not really sure why we want to play the 3-5-2 with no wingbacks or with a half one if Johnson is playing. Especially against Arsenal, whose midfield expectedly took over and the strikers were eliminated right then. Isnt it better to have one effective striker than none? And forcing that system on Arsenal left gaps behind the FBs, which we knew in advance would have been exploited by Sagna. I could be in the minority, but I agree with the posters above saying that we should go tighter against the stronger teams.
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Offline Schmidt

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #84 on: November 4, 2013, 02:14:25 am »
I don't think it's any coincidence that our midfield is at its worst when Enrique and Johnson are out, both are players that not only provide a passing option but can also hold the ball under pressure and pick the right opportunity to play the ball forward instead of sending it back the way it came. With those two in the team both Gerrard and Lucas have more options and generally look less pressured.

Cissokho looked very mentally weak, he seems low on confidence and right now isn't doing a job in attack or defense. Flanagan was very tidy and worked hard, but isn't the type of player we need in that position. For me, we desperately need to improve the depth in both positions by bringing in more technical back-ups than what we currently have, particularly right-back where we've played half a dozen players recently with no real success other than Johnson. We still have Kelly to return but for me he'll never be the player we need there, like Wisdom and Flanagan he looks more suited to a 4-4-2.

We've improved a lot under Brendan and look likely to continue, but he still hasn't addressed the issue of Gerrard playing at being a play-maker, despite having never really been that player before in his career. Don't get me wrong, against teams in the bottom half of the table he can be hugely effective, particularly when those teams fail to pressure us, but at the top level he just doesn't cut it there and never will. I think Brendan's ability to take us forward will largely depend on how he handles Stevie, as it's clear Gerrard himself will play every minute of every game if given the option.

Having Coutinho back was a bonus, he struggled at the start of the season but with Suarez around to distract defenders I can see him tearing teams apart soon. I still think we have a very good starting XI when on form, we just need to continue to fill out the squad in our weaker areas.

Offline Zeb

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #85 on: November 4, 2013, 04:00:44 am »
I'm not really sure why we want to play the 3-5-2 with no wingbacks or with a half one if Johnson is playing. Especially against Arsenal, whose midfield expectedly took over and the strikers were eliminated right then. Isnt it better to have one effective striker than none? And forcing that system on Arsenal left gaps behind the FBs, which we knew in advance would have been exploited by Sagna. I could be in the minority, but I agree with the posters above saying that we should go tighter against the stronger teams.

I think the period up until they scored kind of justified, or at least gave the reasons, for why Rodgers used this. Up til that point we were fairly comfortable for me. Arsenal were under pressure at the back, didn't Henderson's scuffed shot come in that period? It worked until it didn't work I guess.
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Offline Redallover11

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #86 on: November 4, 2013, 04:58:07 am »
I am in the middle so to speak of watching it again and I am up to minute 23. I have been pausing and playing in slow mo.

Firstly if ever there is a great example of playing the ball simply, playing the ball early and playing it quickly it was Arsenal. Some are saying we were never really bothered and yet I saw us one goal down and Mignolet making two excellent saves.

We were unjustly penalised twice, (I know how the ruling goes now but watching the match I was livid.) Apart from that break we offered very little. Is Hendo bearing down on goal a chance? Not a the moment I would say and therin lies another problem. Where is our invention apart from Suarez and Sturridge. Their isn't. Welcome back Coutinho.

 That's fine we  are at the emirates we up against a topside playing really well at the moment.) However I saw lazy defending, 3 centerbacks marking Giroud . Then when the ball is played out to Flanagan Giroud gets on his bike and gets out there to pressure him. No option given by the nearest CB.

An instance of poor decision making when  Kolo made a lung busting run on the left side when Cisshoko was on the ball. He played it inside to Suarez ready to go  for the one two again but Suarez took it on lost the ball and off they went.  lucas had to take down Sagna all the way down by our box.  Poor decision making from Suarez.

We were at times two lines of 4 and 5 other 3 and a 5 but it looked to me like they had our number right from the off. Flanno was getting pissed at the back three and so was Gerrard when they wouldnt shift over when Gibbs started pushing on. Flanno needed to come outside a bit but that left
Ozil free or whoever was in that spot  and then when Gerrard bit and pushed to press we left gaps.

Brendan according to posters said we lost it in midfield. Sure when they were swamped but I would say if we played two banks of four we would have looked a lot more solid and wouldn't have got passed around so much. We would also would have had genuine width to counter.

There was another glaring moment when Gibbs switched play to Mertesacker and he looks up and plays a thirty yard ball along the deck into Ozil on the right who has time to receive and turn and then decide to go at the back three because they all decide to drop into the box.

I think today we didn't know and maybe still don't know how to implement this system but as Rogers says it's temporary but adding Johnson isn't going to be the magic cure.

We've done well in an easy enough fixture list so far but I am hoping for around  12 points from the next 6. And two big games in there regarding league positions in Everton and Spurs.

Off now to watch the rest.


Offline spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #87 on: November 4, 2013, 06:03:42 am »
The main problem was we were outnumbered in the midfield 5 to 3 and the wingbacks failed to stretch Arsenal or add to Liverpool's numbers in the middle of the park.
Arsenal had one striker so 3 defenders on Giroud was redundant and further played into Arsenal's hands.
Whinger must have been rubbing his hands when he saw the team sheet and formation.

We should have flooded the midfield with as many bodies as we could have thrown in there if for no other reason than to disrupt Arsenal's passing. Remove the wingbacks who were offering little (which happened) and remove a centre back. Coutinho, Allen and Moses together with Lucas, Gerrard and Henderson would have made it much harder for Arsenal to play through us.

With all of that said it is understandable that Brendan was reluctant to change the formation that performed so well against West Brom but we really played into Arsenal's hands with the way we set up as they outnumbered us in midfield meaning they passed through us with ease and also prevented us finding the front men and with a lack of chances they (SAS) snatched at the few chances that were presented to them.

Hopefully we learn from this and move on.

Offline woof

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #88 on: November 4, 2013, 06:21:44 am »
I thought we played well in the first half. Not exceptional but good and solid. When the formation was changed, I thought the game would be more loose and it was although Arsenal didn't capitalise on it.

Where do we need fixing? The truth is 3-5-2 can work against Arsenal if we had more potency from our wingbacks. Cissokho is OK but I would have preferred Enrique. Enrique is good in attack and would have given Sagna problems. Instead, Sagna found holes and easily exploited Cissokho's weaknesses.
Flanno was great going forward but defensively, we left too much for the back 3 to do. He wasn't tracking the run of some players and was caught out positionally.

I thought Hendo was solid in the midfield role but he needs to find his scoring boots again.

Gerrard is more of a long term worry. We need someone to replace him for the long term and no one in the existing squad can do that.

I know Sturridge is a competitive fella but his body language wasn't good to watch, especially when he's showing it off to Suarez.

Offline wah00ey

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #89 on: November 4, 2013, 06:47:34 am »
It seemed to me that Arsenal had 5 players in and around our penalty area every time they attacked and 5 players in and around their penalty area every time we attacked.  I'd love to see the total distance run by their team compared to us in that match, I bet there's a significant difference.  The lack of goals from the midfield is a huge worry and has been a problem for years now, every Arsenal midfielder looked, and was, capable of scoring whereas ours were all massively goal shy at best.  Other teams are aware of the Coutinho threat now and it's going to take time for him to recover his fitness and get used to being heavily and sometimes thuggishly marked throughout games.
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #90 on: November 4, 2013, 07:46:33 am »
Basically in an ideal world you play your own game and let the opposition deal with your strength but against top teams and Arsenal are most certainly that you have to take their strengths into consideration and Arsenal's strength is their midfield and we pretty much ignored that.

Offline gollne

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #91 on: November 4, 2013, 08:06:18 am »
We need to see to that we start getting goals from others than SaS. Better teams will always find a way to stop two players and when that happens the other 8 outfield players need to step up and do their part. Far ti sloppy from attacking corners. When the ball gets delivered to you head on a corner and no one is on you you need to hit the target. This has been an issue for some time now. Need to be more focused against the better teams. Henderson did well getting in the box but seemed to be surprised when he got to the goal area. Arsenal are a team you can really hurt with runs from midfield and it' annoying that we didn't try to come from there more instead of just lumping it to our strikers and then just waiting for them to score.

All in all, Arsenal deserved to win. Flanagan did well though however we are missing Johnson and when he's not available I rather we play with 4 at the back (i think we always should to be honest).
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Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #92 on: November 4, 2013, 08:21:16 am »
I think I have a very different take on the game as everyone else. Firstly I don't think Gerrard and Lucas we're the primary concern. I think Rodgers set the team up wrong and it created a number of systemic issues.

1) The Back Three
I've quite liked the back three but in this game Giroud was the perfect striker to combat our defence. He's not looking to get in beat our defence or get in behind them. He just presents an option, holds up the ball and gets Arsenal's midfield into the game. He did an excellent job of this. The one striker system pretty much meant one of our CB's was twiddling his thumbs while Gerrard and Lucas were run ragged in midfield.

2) The Wingbacks
This was not the game to play Flanagan and I think everyone but Rodgers before the game thought selecting him was a terrible decision. It was a stark contrast to the week before against WBA. Cazorla ran Flanagan ragged. I thought he was often a spectator while Cazorla passed and moved his way forward ripping apart our midfield. IMO Cazorla was the key figure in overloading our midfield. He created more chances then anybody on the field, took the most shots and scored the opening goal. To his credit Flanagan was able to find a bit of the ball in going forward in dangerous places but unfortunately wasn't able to take advantage.
 
On the other side it was no better, in fact IMO it was worse. Anonymous on the pitch for most of it and when he did find it clueless in possession constantly turning the ball over. 9 passes in a half of football with 67% pass accuracy. On top of that it was Cissokho that was caught out of position by Sagna for the first goal. IMO Cissokho was a huge liability in attempting to maintain possession and between him and Flanagan we were screwed.

3) Gerrard and Lucas
It's often discussed that they aren't the most dynamic partnership and I fully agree, I perhaps even agree they might not be the midfield for us moving forward if we're to be successful.  but I think in this situation they are getting a bit of a bum wrap. What two midfielders in the world could have handled that situation?  It was effectively five against three (Henderson) with Cazorla and Rosicky playing narrow. All quality players playing one touch passes in tight. How do people suggest Gerrard, Lucas and Henderson defend that? IMO It was an impossible task made so by completely ineffective wing backs and back three defence.

In a game against a very high quality opposition, were small mistakes make a huge difference we couldn't afford two passengers on the pitch and IMO those passengers weren't Gerrard and Lucas.
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Offline stevied

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #93 on: November 4, 2013, 08:36:48 am »
I would have taken a point before the game , i thought it was a good game, both goals were taken really well and we can pick the bones out of all 90 mins but sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and say the opposition had the upper hand, i never thought for one minute this would decide our fate this season, we need to keep winning all the other games Arsenal, Utd, City and Chelsea away are all bonus games if we come out of them with points, beat them at our place hopefully and keep winning all the rest of the games and we will be ok, whack Fulham this weekend and last weekends result will resign itself to the history books
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Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #94 on: November 4, 2013, 09:06:48 am »
I am not so sure about changing the system pre-match.  Also, Rogers did not leave London saying we lost due to a failure of formation.  In fact, he mentioned at his post-game comments that there was much success in it during the match and the previous one.  His point, he called it a coaching point, was that Arsenal were better with ball (control), the formation's weakness is on the flanks and when we pressed their midfield:

1) It needed to be tighter (too much time for a mobile, good passing team who can move the ball quickly)
2) we had to find a way to disrupt them finding space on the sides in 3-5-2 - it was too easy
3) Loosely translating Rogers - we probably wasted midfield energy by using token pressure which leads to tired legs
4) we still were dangerous at times and had our chances


 

Two reasons for me why he should have changed the formation beforehand.

Firstly, neither Cissoko or Flanagan will give you the width you need to play this system - they may be able take up the position but won't be effective enough when they get possession. No slight on the two players for this, its just they are not suited to wing back play imo. We would get away with it against lesser opposition but less likely to, away to Arsenal. Incidentally this would also have been a problem if we had played a flat back four with any of the players available in the full-back positions in that Brendan likes his full backs to provide width anyhow. However 4-2-3-1 would have got us width from two of the three playing behind the striker and hopefully crowded the middle at times also, if thats not too much of a contradiction. Having said all this I understand Brendan's reluctance - if he changed the system and we lost, which we most likely still would have, he would be getting some stick I expect.

My second reason is quite simple, he would of been able to start Couthinio without leaving out Henderson. Players like Couthinio shouldn't be on the bench, for matches like this, if they are even remotely fit.

« Last Edit: November 4, 2013, 09:16:43 am by goalrushatgoodison »
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #95 on: November 4, 2013, 09:29:02 am »
What two midfielders in the world could have handled that situation?  It was effectively five against three (Henderson) with Cazorla and Rosicky playing narrow. All quality players playing one touch passes in tight. How do people suggest Gerrard, Lucas and Henderson defend that? IMO It was an impossible task made so by completely ineffective wing backs and back three defence.

That's how I saw it as well, NO midfield combination of 3 would have coped with a midfield combination of 5.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #96 on: November 4, 2013, 09:30:57 am »
Firstly, Arsenal are a good side, and not many teams will come away from the Emirates with anything. Having said that I don't think they were at their best by any means.

Midfield: This has probably been the biggest point of contention for us this season. What is the right balance? Can Lucas-Gerrard still cut it at the top level? etc etc. When we tore West Brom apart I thought BR had cracked it. Henderson pressed like a demon, Gerrard was further forward where his talents are put to best use and Lucas looked back to his best. Fast-forward to Saturday and, apart from a good 20mins or so we were run ragged again.

For all our hand-wringing about balance and runners in midfield (I am one of the worst for this) you look at Arsenal's midfield and on paper it just should not work at all. Arteta as holding mid? Madness. But it does work... beautifully. Arteta, Ramsey, Ozil and Cazorla are all skillful relatively slight footballers, and my mum is faster than Rosicky. Wenger crams the team with as many good footballers as he can only some of whom are particularly athletic and lo and behold they dominate. Their one-touch stuff is fantastic and they can play that way because pretty much every player in that side is capable of receiving the ball under pressure and finding a teammate.

Maybe, just maybe we should try the same thing and cram all of our best technical players into the XI. For me that means Allen has to come back into the side and Coutinho has to start. We need players who are comfortable under pressure whatever you think of Allen his touch is excellent and he barely ever loses the ball. We also need to move the ball quicker. Gerrard and Henderson are particularly guilty of this in my opinion. Watch how many touches they take before passing it. You will often see SG get the ball of a CB. Touch, touch, touch, look up, touch, touch 40 yard ball out wide. This is not entirely his fault as the movement ahead of him is often not up to scratch, but it really slows our play down at times. Arsenal's players receive the ball under pressure and it's pass, pass, pass. Quick one-touch football is difficult, but it really helps relieve pressure and drag the opposition out of position.

TL;DR

basically Arsenal have better footballers even if we have some superior athletes. Let's maybe stop worrying about having a balanced midfield and cram all our boss technical players into the side. If that means that players have to move out of position then so be it.

How about. 4-2-3-1

Allen Lucas

     Gerrard 

Suarez     Coutinho

     Sturridge
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #97 on: November 4, 2013, 09:55:25 am »

A change at half time half made sense and half didn’t. Cissokho had indeed been that poor that a substitution was required and we needed the spark Coutinho provides to try and get ourselves back into the game. However the change in shape was bemusing. Having struggled even with the midfield overload of the 3412 we became even more stretched taking a man out and playing a 442, and it was doomed to fail. People post match have been exclaiming ‘it’s time to play four at the back’ but I honestly think that Gerrard and Lucas need 3 in behind them and a man in front in most games, particularly one like this. The only time we had any control was whilst playing 3412, and we looked most out of it playing 442. Personally, I’d have kept the shape, bought Agger on for Cissokho, Coutinho for Flanno (though he did well despite people’s delirium when the team sheet came out) shifting Henderson to RWB and straight swap Stevie for Allen. Not necessarily all at once, but they were the subs I was asking for at the time. Going 442 absolutely killed any chance we had in the game and badly performing players stayed on the park.

That is how I saw it. Ceding numbers against Arsenal's midfield? A midfield that in patches in the first half was slicing through us, felt a bit tactically naive to me. Lucas/Gerrard struggled with Henderson's protection and the five in midfield in the first half. What did Rodgers expect would happen with only two? Said at half-time, lets keep it tight, we had some decent control in the first-half, inevitably Arsenal would look to hold on at some point and that is when we should have went for it. We handed the game to Arsenal and played to their strengths.
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Offline JJ Red

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #98 on: November 4, 2013, 09:56:26 am »
I said in the preview thread last week that the midfield would get its first serious examination. What that actually mean't was that i really don't believe our midfield are good enough and we find ourselves in a good league position in spite of them rather than because of them.

I was really worried beforehand that Arsenal would simply pass through the midfield, as it turned out both Gerrard and Lucas dropped deep to compensate but it didn't make much difference. I think we have to be realistic about this and realise the limitations that both Gerrard and Lucas now have. Lucas is not the same player that he was pre-injury and as more time passes i think it becomes obvious that it is this Lucas  that we have now and we won't get the other one back, at least not on any kind of consistent basis.

Gerrard's lack of tracking back is really going to cost us in the long run. He hasn't (and maybe he can't) adapted his game enough to compensate for his new physical limitations. In his mind perhaps he is still the 2006 Gerrard, when in actuality he is a shadow of that player. We need to add a new dimension to that midfield and unless Gerrard begins to adapt his game to a more defensive mindset he could and should find himself the odd one out if BR is given funds to address the problem in January.

Offline Ma Vie en Rouge

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #99 on: November 4, 2013, 10:05:43 am »
Henderson is simply surprised by space.


He seemed terrified by it on that occasion. He delayed and delayed, hoping for something to happen ahead of him to free him from responsibility, whilst the defenders backed off, the space remained open, and all he had to do was take the bit between his teeth and drive forward. A midfielder won't see a better opportunity to break the lines and cause chaos, certainly not against a quality team. But he didn't want it. That's worrying.

I like Henderson a lot. I think he has far more potential than he realises, and with the right attitude, he could be a very dangerous player going forward, to complement his all-round energy and coverage. But is that attitude change going to happen? Can Brendan Rodgers make it happen? Henderson needs to stop thinking of himself as utterly supplementary to the more talented players and start being determined to make things happen himself, when the opportunity is there. A midfielder like that, with his energy and ability, can really change a game, and that bewildered, timid run of his was a huge lost chance to do so. Arsenal were determined to deny Suarez and Sturridge space and time. That opened up occasional spaces for driving midfielders. We didn't exploit that.

Offline koppper

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #100 on: November 4, 2013, 10:07:59 am »
Is there any way of getting the "KM run" figures of the players in this match? It would be very interesting.
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #101 on: November 4, 2013, 10:12:42 am »
That is how I saw it. Ceding numbers against Arsenal's midfield? A midfield that in patches in the first half was slicing through us, felt a bit tactically naive to me. Lucas/Gerrard struggled with Henderson's protection and the five in midfield in the first half. What did Rodgers expect would happen with only two? Said at half-time, lets keep it tight, we had some decent control in the first-half, inevitably Arsenal would look to hold on at some point and that is when we should have went for it. We handed the game to Arsenal and played to their strengths.

Well I agree and said before the game to counter Arsenal's brilliant interplay, clever one/two's, give & go's, from the center circle to in and around our penalty box, you need 4 high energy players in there to snarl it up. Plus 4 defenders alive to the quick passing game.

Arsenal hardly ever play it in the air so we could have played a flat back 4. Toure should not have started the game.

But I said we'd still lose 2-1 so we should not overreact, (don't think Rodgers will anyway). Results went our way, many will get nothing from Arsenal.

Still in the top 4, we have to re-focus, get SAS playing better together. Sturridge took a massive hump when Suarez didn't square it for him and shot accross the keeper and wide. In essence Sturridge & Suarez are individuals and I doubt that will change but their understanding should improve in time. But both have to respect the fact that it's their individual talent that has got them so far in the game and stop getting the hump when one or the other goes for goal.

Rodgers has a decision to make over Cissokho also if he plays Coutinho will he go back to a flat back 4.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #102 on: November 4, 2013, 10:12:43 am »
As ever, the ground’s been covered one way or another with some fine posts. Just like to add a slightly different angle which has occurred to me during this inevitable initial grieving process so I may as well air it.

I doubt there’s a single Reds fan who prior to kick off didn’t harbour a reasonably strong notion we could go down to The Emirates, take them on head to head and bring home the three points after watching those four amazing goals and the two woodwork efforts against West Brom.

You could then, given that scenario, think it somewhat churlish to question why the management should have viewed the situation any differently.

However, the harsh fact is we’re fans and they’re management.

Hindsight now tells us as fans that Arsenal were not weakened one jot by their absentees. Wenger and the Arsenal management seem to have known this.

It also tells us that we were. Quite noticeably. And that it’s probably fair to say we need to be at our full strength technical best [by which I mean a team containing Agger, Coutinho, Johnson, Enrique and possibly Allen] to take on one of the top teams on their own midden in a head to head contest. Even then I’m not sure we’re strong enough – though perhaps, and hopefully, we are.

It is perfectly clear now is that our own absentees left us seriously weakened, most especially in arguably the two most vital wing back areas for the successful deployment of a 3-5-2 system against a top side. Whilst our performance was nowhere near as poor as some have said in their understandable frustration and we actually still could have snatched the goals to achieve a positive result, surely nobody would argue that we were anything other than second best and at times comprehensively outplayed especially in those midfield areas..

So should Rodgers, Pascoe and Marsh have been aware of all this without the hindsight we now all have? Should the absentees not have told our management that in order to stand the best chance of a positive result we needed to adopt a formation that could work best within the personnel limitations forced upon us to allow us to stifle/negate Arsenal’s midfield strengths rather than actually allow them to prosper with a player deficit in that area of the pitch? Should our most technically gifted and attack minded centre back not have been included to lend a more positive balance to the back line and possibly the area in front of the back line.

Are the management aware of all this now?

I’m unsure of the answer to the questions I’m posing. It’s far too early days to know. However, they are questions that are perfectly valid if you ask me.

Down the years, I’ve witnessed the various guises of Liverpool management adopt a ‘horses for courses’ approach to suit a particular match and more pertinently to suit the personnel we had available. Such a pragmatic approach was adopted to yield a positive result in a particular game. I’m not convinced this is the case now.

Don’t get me wrong. I like Brendan Rodgers. I’ve liked an awful lot of what I’ve seen and heard from him. I support him. I want him to succeed and I think in time he will. As I say it’s still early days. But the fact remains these are massive shoes he has to fill and I’d have been a whole lot more convinced had he shown he possesses a hell of a lot more insight into what was about to transpire on Saturday night than us lot. And I’m not sure what we saw unfold down at The Emirates tells us that he did.

Raise your game Brendan lad. It’s a must for a successful Liverpool manager.   :)     

Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #103 on: November 4, 2013, 10:18:37 am »
I know everyone admired Flano's effort but I thought that he limited us. They never bothered about him since Gibbs was always confident about catching him with his pace. Had Johnson been there, it would have changed whole lot of dynamics.

When we moved Coutinho in middle and Henderson as wing back, I thought we got good control of the match. Coutinho was constantly finding gaps between them and had he been match fit, his weight on ball might have been better resulting in us converting chances. Also Henderson got lot of joy on right side when the play was switched. Don't know why Rodgers went with Flano on right when ideal thing would have been Coutinho in middle and Henderson as wing back.
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #104 on: November 4, 2013, 10:19:34 am »
i thought we were outplayed.

Not in the sense that Arsenal were all over us and deserved the win no questions asked.....i think if that game ended up in a draw neither side would have complained.

They outplayed us in implementing their tactics....

They nullified our main attacking threats (Suarez and Sturridge) and that frustrated us. When they had the ball they used it well and waited for our mistakes....which an in-form team always seem to take advantage of even when not playing particularly well. Which they did.

We just had to frustrate them early on and keep things tight, let them come on to us and hit them on the break. But we did the opposite, we kept getting drawn forward and lost the ball cheaply allowing for Arsenal to do what they do best on the counter...its like we've never seen them play this season  ???

We didn't play terribly.....but it seemed as if we had been well beaten because we just never looked threatening. Neither did they but the whole match was kind of......meh. Almost as if we didnt mind giving three points to a team that didn't mind receiving three points, neither wanted to put a shift in for it tho.

Hmm. Onwards...expect a reaction against Fulham.

I know it wont happen, but I would love BR to drop Gerrard for that game....bring him back in the derby. Im guessing Stevie would be well rested and even more fired up for it in that scenario!
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #105 on: November 4, 2013, 10:21:04 am »
No disrespect Timo's Goals, but wasn't that a long winded way of saying we should have played 4 in midfield to counter Arsenal's interplay from the center circle to our box.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #106 on: November 4, 2013, 10:28:02 am »
i thought we were outplayed.

Not in the sense that Arsenal were all over us and deserved the win no questions asked.....i think if that game ended up in a draw neither side would have complained.

They outplayed us in implementing their tactics....

They nullified our main attacking threats (Suarez and Sturridge) and that frustrated us. When they had the ball they used it well and waited for our mistakes....which an in-form team always seem to take advantage of even when not playing particularly well. Which they did.

We just had to frustrate them early on and keep things tight, let them come on to us and hit them on the break. But we did the opposite, we kept getting drawn forward and lost the ball cheaply allowing for Arsenal to do what they do best on the counter...its like we've never seen them play this season  ???

We didn't play terribly.....but it seemed as if we had been well beaten because we just never looked threatening. Neither did they but the whole match was kind of......meh. Almost as if we didnt mind giving three points to a team that didn't mind receiving three points, neither wanted to put a shift in for it tho.

Hmm. Onwards...expect a reaction against Fulham.

I know it wont happen, but I would love BR to drop Gerrard for that game....bring him back in the derby. Im guessing Stevie would be well rested and even more fired up for it in that scenario!

Well Rodgers won't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes he should of played 4 in mid to counter Arsenal's tricky interplay but in a sense his attacking mentality will pay off in the long run.

Arsenal are the nearest thing to Barca in the Prem but most teams aren't that good so I'll take a hit against Arsenal if it means Rodgers will still attack.

One of the main moans against Ged, Rafa and to a lesser extent Kenny was that they were slightly negative to often. Now we have a manager who believes we can beat the best, won't come off every time but I'm happy to see how it goes. So I'm not going to knock Rodgers as much as some.

Carry on attacking Rodgers. Good man yerself.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #107 on: November 4, 2013, 10:31:05 am »
Well Rodgers won't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes he should of played 4 in mid to counter Arsenal's tricky interplay but in a sense his attacking mentality will pay off in the long run.

Arsenal are the nearest thing to Barca in the Prem but most teams aren't that good so I'll take a hit against Arsenal if it means Rodgers will still attack.

Carry on attacking Rodgers. Good man yerself.

I think that is an excellent point. It worked so well against West Brom after all. Still think BR is a little weak tactically. Rafa and Kenny/Clarke were masters of the one-off pitched battle against superior opposition. 
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Offline robgomm

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #108 on: November 4, 2013, 10:32:38 am »
He seemed terrified by it on that occasion. He delayed and delayed, hoping for something to happen ahead of him to free him from responsibility, whilst the defenders backed off, the space remained open, and all he had to do was take the bit between his teeth and drive forward. A midfielder won't see a better opportunity to break the lines and cause chaos, certainly not against a quality team. But he didn't want it. That's worrying.

I like Henderson a lot. I think he has far more potential than he realises, and with the right attitude, he could be a very dangerous player going forward, to complement his all-round energy and coverage. But is that attitude change going to happen? Can Brendan Rodgers make it happen? Henderson needs to stop thinking of himself as utterly supplementary to the more talented players and start being determined to make things happen himself, when the opportunity is there. A midfielder like that, with his energy and ability, can really change a game, and that bewildered, timid run of his was a huge lost chance to do so. Arsenal were determined to deny Suarez and Sturridge space and time. That opened up occasional spaces for driving midfielders. We didn't exploit that.

I am in total agreement, he's a step away because he doesn't back himself yet. He needs to get watching Frank Lampard videos, seriously.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #109 on: November 4, 2013, 10:42:14 am »
I think that is an excellent point. It worked so well against West Brom after all. Still think BR is a little weak tactically. Rafa and Kenny/Clarke were masters of the one-off pitched battle against superior opposition. 

Yes mayby Rodger isn't as tactical as some. But he probably well aware of the dangers Arsenal present but still went with an attacking line up. I still think an attacking mentality will pay off in the long run.

I've always said to win the Prem you have to play slightly more tactical V the top 4 but attack the rest and amass the points. Fergie did that year in year out.

Rafa, bless him, tried to set the team up tactically for almost every game. He changed the line up that many times the kit man resigned.

So having a manager who attacks week in week out I think will at the very least get us into the top 4, well we certainly won't fail for the want of attacking.

The old chant from the kop was- Attack,Attack, Attack.

Think Rodgers is also looking to sign a goal scoring attacking midfielder to add even more goal threat to his armoury. He shouldn't be discouraged, he should be encouraged to attack.

Go for it Brendan.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #110 on: November 4, 2013, 10:48:52 am »


I've always said to win the Prem you have to play slightly more tactical V the top 4 but attack the rest and amass the points. Fergie did that year in year out.

Rafa, bless him, tried to set the team up tactically for almost every game. He changed the line up that many times the kit man resigned.


Go for it Brendan.
;D

Very funny, and probably true. I think Rafa gave some English sides too much credit at times when we probably had the players to just go out and batter your Middlesboroughs and Sunderlands. Maybe that was because he came from a more technical league and was used to mixing it with Europe's best.

I think Utd have shown that you can be fairly shit against your rivals if you smash the little side consistently. That season we came 2nd under Rafa we beat the Mancs home and away won more games lost fewer and still didn't win the fucking league! Maybe a more gung-ho approach would have made the difference, although we were probably just one more top attacker short.
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #111 on: November 4, 2013, 10:58:24 am »
I like what Rodgers is doing. A more attacking Liverpool is certainly more entertaining, and will do well as most of the teams in this league we will get away with it....and that top 4 place can be achieved.

But we can't be so naive against better oppo, which is what we were on Saturday night.

This is just me worrying long-term in wanting to see signs of how Rodgers would set up in difficult games we'll face if we get that top 4 spot....in Europe as well as domestically.

But i guess he has shown that he's learned on the job so far, and hopefully we'll see something more from him and the team when the time comes
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #112 on: November 4, 2013, 10:59:53 am »
No disrespect Timo's Goals, but wasn't that a long winded way of saying we should have played 4 in midfield to counter Arsenal's interplay from the center circle to our box.

Cheeky c*nt.

 ;D

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #113 on: November 4, 2013, 11:04:48 am »
;D

Very funny, and probably true. I think Rafa gave some English sides too much credit at times when we probably had the players to just go out and batter your Middlesboroughs and Sunderlands. Maybe that was because he came from a more technical league and was used to mixing it with Europe's best.

I think Utd have shown that you can be fairly shit against your rivals if you smash the little side consistently. That season we came 2nd under Rafa we beat the Mancs home and away won more games lost fewer and still didn't win the fucking league! Maybe a more gung-ho approach would have made the difference, although we were probably just one more top attacker short.

Could be true that if you break even V the top 4/5 and amass point against the so called lesser sides you will come close. Might not win it as that depends on lady luck or just having the right blend.

Think Ged missed out by NOT playing Jari Litmanen when he had the chance,4-6 goals from Litmanen might just have been enough but keeping the back door shut got the better og Ged.

I will be very keen to see Rodgers sign a quality midfielder in January. Better understanding between SAS wouldn't go amiss either.

Playing Lucas & Hendo tho doesn't offer enough quality. One look at the quality Arsenal have in mid, Arteta,Gazorla, Flamini,Ozil,Ramsey,Wiltshire,Rossicky, to show how far we are off the pace.

Only chance for us is to attack and keep up with the points chase. City & United are now starting to wake up. Chelsea will sign big in January. Arsenal as we have seen can beat anybody. Spurs aren't out of it by any means. Got our work cut out to keep up with that lot.

Money needs to be spent and plenty of it.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #114 on: November 4, 2013, 11:08:01 am »
Cheeky c*nt.

 ;D

Sorry Tim..was a bit shallow.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #115 on: November 4, 2013, 11:09:56 am »
Yes mayby Rodger isn't as tactical as some. But he probably well aware of the dangers Arsenal present but still went with an attacking line up. I still think an attacking mentality will pay off in the long run.

I've always said to win the Prem you have to play slightly more tactical V the top 4 but attack the rest and amass the points. Fergie did that year in year out.

Rafa, bless him, tried to set the team up tactically for almost every game. He changed the line up that many times the kit man resigned.

So having a manager who attacks week in week out I think will at the very least get us into the top 4, well we certainly won't fail for the want of attacking.

The old chant from the kop was- Attack,Attack, Attack.

Think Rodgers is also looking to sign a goal scoring attacking midfielder to add even more goal threat to his armoury. He shouldn't be discouraged, he should be encouraged to attack.

Go for it Brendan.

Disagree.

Which rather than the convenient bit you surmised was actually the point of my hmmpph long winded post but I presume you fell asleep after the first two dozen paragraphs so missed it.  ;D

Incidentally I don't recall Shanks or Paisley ever chanting Attack, Attack, Attack. It was always us on the Kop.

 ;D

That said, there's nowt wrong and an awful lot right with maintaining an attacking philosophy - not that 3-5-2 just by adopting it is necesarily a guarantee of that - but you also have to balance it with a pragmatism for specific games. The best Liverpool managers have always done that and it's proven its worth down the years. Perhaps Brendan should have taken a leaf out of that book.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #116 on: November 4, 2013, 11:20:31 am »


One look at the quality Arsenal have in mid, Arteta,Gazorla, Flamini,Ozil,Ramsey,Wiltshire,Rossicky, to show how far we are off the pace.


Sobering. Also dont' they still have Diaby who has proven against us he's got alot to offer both defensively and offensively. Also Giroud links with them and brings the attacking mids in as well as you'd want any centre forward to do. Plus Gibbs and sagna can pour forward and do damage on the flanks as they showed saturday. Plus there's walcott and Podolski for the wide positions. Fuck me. I feel queasy.

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #117 on: November 4, 2013, 11:21:02 am »
I think I agree with those who say we have "precious" players who are hard to drop in Lucas and Gerrard. The mention of such players having a bad game or making mistakes brings such staunch defenses that would make the average Liverpool fan cringe.

They were better than us. How?

They were precise in their short passing.

They were quicker in their short passing.

Their movement was brilliant.

They were lucky.

The last one is pivotal. Imagine if that was us who hit the post, the ball would probably skim off the post for a goal kick. Cazorla was lucky to have the ball just land back to him after his header. A lot of you have already covered the defensive lapses and lack of width/threat for us on the pitch, which remain valid.

I think we need to give credit to our guys for continuing to fight. When the ball was gifted to Sturridge in the box, you thought, this isnt our day is it? when he missed that surprising chance. Then Suarez wriggled into space and shot narrowly wide of the post with Sturridge screaming for it. It was a chance that Suarez would normally put away.

Definitely agree that goals from midfield is severely lacking. I was pleased to see us with the ball and getting at goal, even though it was fruitless, the addition of Coutinho really did add that extra something. It was like we had our own Ozil on the pitch. This is where I think we can improve. If we had another player of extreme quality available to us, we'd be a threat. Look at the speed of thought, the movement, the quick passing that Arsenal used to retain and tire our players. You have to take your hats off to them. In good form, playing very well with some key players our injured.

Arteta won Man of the Match on this game. He won it for being good in defensive positions. He's not known for being a powerhouse / big tackler or even covering the spaces left for others. Do we really need a powerhouse midfielder when quality players can play like this?
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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #118 on: November 4, 2013, 11:22:33 am »
Sobering. Also dont' they still have Diaby who has proven against us he's got alot to offer both defensively and offensively. Also Giroud links with them and brings the attacking mids in as well as you'd want any centre forward to do. Plus Gibbs and sagna can pour forward and do damage on the flanks as they showed saturday. Plus there's walcott and Podolski for the wide positions. Fuck me. I feel queasy.

 :)


Fuck it. We'll still smash them at Anfield.

 :)


Offline freddwarf

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Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #119 on: November 4, 2013, 11:24:27 am »
Disagree.

Which rather than the convenient bit you surmised was actually the point of my hmmpph long winded post but I presume you fell asleep after the first two dozen paragraphs so missed it.  ;D

Incidentally I don't recall Shanks or Paisley ever chanting Attack, Attack, Attack. It was always us on the Kop.

 ;D

That said, there's nowt wrong and an awful lot right with maintaining an attacking philosophy - not that 3-5-2 just by adopting it is necesarily a guarantee of that - but you also have to balance it with a pragmatism for specific games. The best Liverpool managers have always done that and it's proven its worth down the years. Perhaps Brendan should have taken a leaf out of that book.

But it is true that both Shanks & Bob attacked more often than not. Obviously 3-5-2 is no guarantee of success. I said we should have competed better in our own half and mayby a 4th midfielder, might have kept them at bay. Did we need 3 center backs against an Arsenal team that rely on their great interplay in front of any back 4.

I think Rodgers was well aware of the dangers Arsenal present but was confident we could keep them out but we were outplayed from the edge of the center circle to the edge of our box.

We just didn't shut down their engine room, largely because we wre a man light but on a different day we might have nicked one early on, but we didn't and lost.

No real damage done, just need better quality in midfield. Might solve that problem in January.