Topic: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC

[Hinesy]

I didn't think we were comprehensively beaten, our goal wasn't repeatedly threatened, both sides to- ing and fro-ing and so on. But I did think that Arsenal's defensive tactics annulled SaS very well and of the two teams, sadly, we looked the least likely to score.

What's missing?

[PhaseOfPlay]

I didn't think we were comprehensively beaten, our goal wasn't repeatedly threatened, both sides to- ing and fro-ing and so on. But I did think that Arsenal's defensive tactics annulled SaS very well and of the two teams, sadly, we looked the least likely to score.

What's missing?

Goals from central midfield is the quickest answer. If Suarez and Sturridge are shut down, who takes up the slack? In both boxes we are strong. In the middle we are lacking. That needs to be fixed in January. But having said that, you don't win every game, and it's not like we were outplayed from first to last minute like City against Norwich. We were blunt in our attack, but we had chances. We lost to two preventable goals, one of which was an excellent strike. Arsenal had a better passing game, but they also have a very good central midfield. I think the controversial opinion on the situation would be that our central midfield is maybe running on reputation this season, and perhaps Rodgers has to look much harder at what's happening there. Midfield is the engine room, and ours has been sputtering into life all season, but never quite making it - running more like a 1980's Mazda on a cold winter's morning, rather than the sleek Maserati (or at least a robust Humvee) that's required for genuine title challengers.

We're still very much in the running for a top four spot, though, and with a run of 5 games where the only real dangerous game is the Everton one, we should approach the halfway point of the season in good shape for the run-in if Rodgers can get a handle on how the midfield is functioning.

[thegoodfella]

The chopping and changing of the formation within the ninety minutes doesn't really help, does it? We changed the entire defensive line to bring on Coutinho in the second half, changed again when we brought on Moses. I'm no coach but I don't think that helps the central defenders or the midfield too much. But we weren't poor as some would suggest, I think we had our chances and if the ref hadn't stopped Luis from taking that quick freekick, we might have come away with a draw.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The chopping and changing of the formation within the ninety minutes doesn't really help, does it? We changed the entire defensive line to bring on Coutinho in the second half, changed again when we brought on Moses. I'm no coach but I don't think that helps the central defenders or the midfield too much. But we weren't poor as some would suggest, I think we had our chances and if the ref hadn't stopped Luis from taking that quick freekick, we might have come away with a draw.

It doesn't have that much of an effect, though. Players like to see that the manager is open to changing things around to look for the win. As long as he doesn't do silly things like playing Suarez at right-back or Lucas as the main forward, the changes that get made are almost certainly talked about, if not worked on in training, so it's rarely, if ever, a surprise to the players. He had to change the shape of the midfield to change the space in there, as Arsenal had too much space given how much more athletic their midfield was compared to ours. We weren't poor though - they definitely shaded the quality, clearly - but our strikers had a dry day, and that's what happens sometimes, especially when you don't have a free-scoring midfielder to back them up. The main positive, is that Coutinho came out unscathed. I wouldn't be surprised if we go back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 next week. If we go to 4-2-3-1, though, the question will be which of Suarez or Sturridge gets shunted out wide.

[thegoodfella]

It doesn't have that much of an effect, though. Players like to see that the manager is open to changing things around to look for the win. As long as he doesn't do silly things like playing Suarez at right-back or Lucas as the main forward, the changes that get made are almost certainly talked about, if not worked on in training, so it's rarely, if ever, a surprise to the players. He had to change the shape of the midfield to change the space in there, as Arsenal had too much space given how much more athletic their midfield was compared to ours.

But some of the changes must have been a bit of a shift of focus for them, which I think resulted in the confusion for the second goal. Sakho being moved to left back was covering for Skrtel who found himself in no man's land at the left and Toure not knowing if he was covering for a run or blocking. The midfield didn't pick up the goal scorer either. And then Henderson was moved to a right back/wing back, which resulted in the collapse of our midfield.

It just felt like breaking half a dozen eggs to make just a couple. Is it safe to say that the manager is expecting a little too much from the players, when he changes it like that in the middle?

[PhaseOfPlay]

But some of the changes must have been a bit of a shift of focus for them, which I think resulted in the confusion for the second goal. Sakho being moved to left back was covering for Skrtel who found himself in no man's land at the left and Toure not knowing if he was covering for a run or blocking. The midfield didn't pick up the goal scorer either. And then Henderson was moved to a right back/wing back, which resulted in the collapse of our midfield.

That would all only be the case if none of them had ever played in a back four though. As it is, they all have, including Henderson at right back. That the midfield collapsed is more to do with who was left in central midfield than the change of formation and any confusion attributed to it.

It just felt like breaking half a dozen eggs to make just a couple. Is it safe to say that the manager is expecting a little too much from the players, when he changes it like that in the middle?

No. He's expecting too much if he puts them in a formation that they've never played before, like a 3-6-1 or a 6-2-2 or something outlandish. But to switch to a basic and "logical" formation like 4-4-2 is not the cause of any loss of control in the middle or at the back. That came about because we had to push forward looking for goals, and that will always create gaps in any team - especially at the back.

[Eeyore]

I thought we were a bunch of Athletes and Footballers up against a team of athletic footballers. We have too many players in the side for their athletic ability Flannagan, Skrtel, Cissokho and Henderson and too many players in the side for their footballing ability Toure, Lucas and Gerrard and not enough players who combine the two.

We can get away with it against the poorer sides but Arsenal just had too many players with the physical attributes to exploit the space we left combined with the technical ability to use that space effectively. Against the top sides we end up with our athletes getting the space but not having the guile to use it whilst our better footballers get crowded out. We had Henderson bursting into the box and later blasting a half volley over whilst Gerrard was off the pace and unable break free of the shackles.

The manager is having to make too many compromises at the moment at either end of the pitch with three centre backs and two forwards and it is affecting the middle of the park were we end up out numbered and outgunned far too often. If we are to make the next step and become genuine contenders then for me we need to address the problems within the squad and stop making compromises trying to compensate for deficiencies in the side.   

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

It doesn't have that much of an effect, though. Players like to see that the manager is open to changing things around to look for the win. As long as he doesn't do silly things like playing Suarez at right-back or Lucas as the main forward, the changes that get made are almost certainly talked about, if not worked on in training, so it's rarely, if ever, a surprise to the players. He had to change the shape of the midfield to change the space in there, as Arsenal had too much space given how much more athletic their midfield was compared to ours. We weren't poor though - they definitely shaded the quality, clearly - but our strikers had a dry day, and that's what happens sometimes, especially when you don't have a free-scoring midfielder to back them up. The main positive, is that Coutinho came out unscathed. I wouldn't be surprised if we go back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 next week. If we go to 4-2-3-1, though, the question will be which of Suarez or Sturridge gets shunted out wide.

I hope, and expect, that you are right on the formation switch for next week. 

We lost the game in midfield, and there is a debate to be had about how we strengthen that area in January/Summer but regardless of the individual performances you are always going to struggle if you are playing what is, on form, the best midfield in the league and you try and match their five with a midfield three. 

I want to see us switching to 4-4-2 with a midfield diamond.  Lucas at the base, Gerrard and Henderson the hub and Coutinho playing between them and the front two.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I thought we were a bunch of Athletes and Footballers up against a team of athletic footballers.

Wisdom in a single sentence.

Great stuff Al!

[Gnurglan]

Goals from central midfield is the quickest answer. If Suarez and Sturridge are shut down, who takes up the slack? In both boxes we are strong. In the middle we are lacking. That needs to be fixed in January. But having said that, you don't win every game, and it's not like we were outplayed from first to last minute like City against Norwich. We were blunt in our attack, but we had chances. We lost to two preventable goals, one of which was an excellent strike. Arsenal had a better passing game, but they also have a very good central midfield. I think the controversial opinion on the situation would be that our central midfield is maybe running on reputation this season, and perhaps Rodgers has to look much harder at what's happening there. Midfield is the engine room, and ours has been sputtering into life all season, but never quite making it - running more like a 1980's Mazda on a cold winter's morning, rather than the sleek Maserati (or at least a robust Humvee) that's required for genuine title challengers.

We're still very much in the running for a top four spot, though, and with a run of 5 games where the only real dangerous game is the Everton one, we should approach the halfway point of the season in good shape for the run-in if Rodgers can get a handle on how the midfield is functioning.

Goals from midfield, could that be from the wide areas, or would you say more specifically that it's our CMs we need more from?
Also, if we are to improve in CM, who gives way? Allen and Alberto have hardly played. Are they solutions, or not good enough options? Lucas, Henderson and Gerrard have played all the time, and we need to improve on them.

The way I see it, Coutinho needs to be in there. We need that Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge triangle. Or we need Coutinho central, behind one of them. Then I think we have three players (Gerrard, Allen, Henderson), maybe even four (Alberto), competing for one spot. And then it's Lucas. Is the solution to drop our dependence on Gerrard? Or is it to replace Lucas?

[BazC]

I have to say, I'm a bit bemused by the aftermath.

I missed the first 20 minutes of the game and when I walked in to see us 1-0 down, I asked my housemate who was the better team. He's an Arsenal season ticket holder, had to miss this game because he has a few big exams this week. Apparently it came against the run of play, and we were controlling the game, with Henderson having missed a good chance for us.

My thoughts on the game - to counter the bodies Arsenal get in attacking areas quickly, from midfield, Gerrard and Lucas played deep, rather than pressuring the midfielders in front of them. Bodies behind the ball, with Henderson pressuring the opponent on the ball. They rarely got in behind us. Arsenal played a few slick passes in front of our defence/midfield, but let's be honest, it rarely went anywhere. And there were more than a few moans of "what the fuck" from said Arsenal supporting housemate when they presented the ball to one of ours. Their midfield 'presence' was overrated going by yesterday's performance - it's not like we didn't get in behind them, with Suarez, Henderson, Sturridge having chances. Coutinho came on and was finding gaps all over the place as well - the weight of the passes wasn't right, so we didn't make the most of it, but he was finding the gaps.

In the end, the 2nd goal killed us off. It's the discussion a lot of have been having all season - our midfield/defence letting players shoot from outside the box. Ramsey's shot was top class, but he had all the time he needed for the ball to come down because of that. But it's one of those that you have to say was fair enough - you challenge opposition players to strike the ball from far out, then you have to hold your hands up when they fly in.

The likes of Henderson, Lucas and Gerrard getting criticism. A lot of criticism. But I think they probably played as they were set out to play. We've some games against lower league teams coming up with Everton sandwiched between a couple, and to be honest, we'll play differently against those teams, and I'd expect us to win all of them. Gerrard and Lucas will not be sitting in front of the defence like yesterday and you'd expect the midfield dynamic to be more geared towards getting Gerrard further up the pitch like he was against West Brom last week, leaving Lucas to be the sole pivot in the middle.

I'd like to see Allen come in to the side, because I think he's better than Henderson on the ball, and going by pre season and that Notts County game (before his injury, also had the energy to get up and down the field (getting into the box a fair bit too). I think we'd add more creativity and intelligence in the middle if he came in. Of course, Coutinho's also back now, and you'd expect him to start next game. Maybe he's the one who comes in for Henderson.

The lads need to get back on it next game, and rip into these lower league sides. Gerrard, Lucas and Allen/Henderson/Coutinho in front of them should be more than enough to beat Fulham, Hull, Norwich etc. The Everton game will be the interesting one because they'll be expected to go for the win. But I don't think we'll go there set up like we were yesterday, and we should get the space again to make the most of that.

We'll get back on track next week, with hopefully a sound battering of Fulham.

[archie]

What's missing?

We still don't have the depth of squad that we'd like.

Thought the game passed Stevie by at times yesterday and up against a confident Arsenal midfield
Lucas and Stevie were behind the ball bit too often, but Arsenal have the ability to take players out of the game with their passing. That said I thought we defended the edge of the box quite well.
The second goal has been blamed on a number of different players, still a great strike.

We have other options in midfield but they aren't being given games which is strange.

Was interesting in the pub afterwards that some thought we changed it too early and it was wrong. Whilst we probably had some better possession first half we were finding it hard to get the front two into the game.
Our wing backs first half didn't Really offer anything going forward.

Coutinho was a real plus, gliding past players and looking to play sharp incisive passes. Just rusty and unfortunately his passing was a little too heavy. Good to see him back.

Maybe others will disagree but I didn't think we were awful and were never out of the game. Had clear cut opportunities which we couldn't convert.
Lack of goals from midfield is a concern.

I think Arsenal looked sharp and full of self belief.
Not sure if we are there (yet).

[Corkboy]

Goals change games and this was never more the case than here. Until the goal, we were "at it", as Neville said in commentary. Pressing and harrying while not in possession, and quick, fluent passing with the ball. Their first goal changed everything. Cissokho looked uncomfortable all day (one memorable instance being where he refused to control a dropping ball until it bounced, thereby turning a touch into a challenge) but I could forgive him getting beaten to the ball by Sagna. Unforgivable, however, was giving Cazorla a free header with nobody within ten yards, and it looked like Gerrard was the culprit, with a special mention for our wobbly back three.

After that, Arsenal were at it, full of confidence, and we shrank. Although never losing sight of them, and never embarrassing ourselves, they looked very good for the rest of the game, with most pundits calling it their best performance of the season. We had chances, but our strike duo were well marshalled and slightly off form.

Anyway, fuck it. We're not going to miss out on a top four slot over losing away to the side at the top of the table.

[Mr Dilkington]

Wisdom in a single sentence.

Great stuff Al!

Shame he's on loan at Derby.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Shame he's on loan at Derby.

[Hinesy]

bump

[007.lankyguy]

Was disappointed by the goals. First goal, they attacked through wide space with Sagna, Cazorla's run untracked - Flanagan didn't get back in but Gerrard was also out of position and walking back a few seconds earlier from a wide position while Henderson had been pressing on our left.

Second goal - Coutinho doesn't come back with Ozil (to be expected in all fairness), Gerrard has no intensity in closing him or his pass inside down, Lucas saw this and over-compensated, Henderson didn't track Ramsey's run. The finishes are very good but the defensive mistakes are pretty irritating. Arsenal were clearly the better team overall for a number of reasons but the goals are very preventable.

I'm writing a detailed piece for 'Anfield Index' which should be up tomorrow morning but really thought there were basic errors in the lead up to the goals.

[Tony19:6]

Their goals were far too easy.

1st Cissoko beaten far too easily, with no-one tracking Cazorla - Lucas/Flannagan take your pick. No surprise he was hooked at h.t.

2nd Kolo turned his back on the Ramsey shot.

Both preventable. But the best team (by a distance) won.

[Draex]

The key to playing 3 at the back is having 2 wingbacks who need to be as good as wingers in attack, but also have the stamina to get back and defend - not a slight on Flanagan (who I thought had a decent enough game for his first start in however long) but him and Cissokho offered hardly anything in attack - overhit crosses, no link up play, no threat - generally we got nothing down the flanks bar seeing them out of position and having to get back as Arsenal's slick passing quickly bypassed our midfield as they launched another attack.

We as a team have no link whatsoever between defense/midfield and most certainly attack - there is no movement off the ball or if there is its generally horizontal and we move the ball around slowly. Arsenal showed today how to pass and move, a passer always was moving to become a reciever and they passed positively - trying to move forward as much as possible, none of this sidewards and backwards we see from Liverpool. The difference in speed of passing/touches was pretty staggering, as Al said it was atheletic footballers v's athletes and footballers.

The elephant that is the room and probably all of Anfield - Gerrard and Lucas, neither have the energy, intensity, athletecism to play as a midfield pair - they were so laborious and static it was horrible to see. Arsenal's midfield bypassed us with ease, a quick pass and move would a semi-jogging Gerrard pulled out of position and then behind the play - it was also very disappointing to see Gerrard moaning at team mates for the first 30minutes.

Rodgers has to make the hard calls, it's not good enough to talk about no player being bigger than the team yet leaving an under-performing midfield pairing out on the field 90minutes every game.

Fulham coming up and maybe it's time to see what Allen and Alberto can offer the team.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

There was me thinking both goals were great examples of excellent technique.

[Boer_War]

I don't think it would of made a difference, but why wasn't all 3 subs used?

There could of been more attacking subs made without even changing the system i.e. Allen for Lucas, Agger for Kolo.

Though at the end of the day we were just out played. But we are 10 games in and still 2nd.

[jaffod]

To be honest it was everything I expected and more. We really aren't anywhere near the level we like to think we are. Arsenal won without breaking sweat and I'd gladly have taken the final whistle as soon as Ramsey was given the freedom of the Emirates to control the ball, set himself and secure the points.
 I didn't really learn anything I didn't already know other than the fact John Flanagan might actually have a future here. He at least looked like he gave a fuck. The sooner Agger is back in the team the better and the same goes for Enrique so the hapless Cissokho can fight for a place on the bench.
 The lack of creativity and guile is astounding. Coutinho's passing was way off and that's to be expected given he hasn't played for 6 weeks but at least he attempted to play the forward's in. Suarez and Sturridge are living on scraps and it's to their credit they've scored as many as they have in this side.
 Statistics can be bent to suit your own arguments...you only have to look at a crab like Jamie Redknapp to realise pass-completion etc can make a totally ineffective player look decent. But our individual stats yesterday were damning, we had 2 MF's who offered us absolutely nothing offensively. No shots either on target, off target or blocked...zilch.
 When you compound this with playing with 5 defenders, because that's what we are doing however you want to dress it up, and those 5 defenders are also totally impotent in the final 3rd then it's a recipe to not win football matches. You simply cannot compete with teams like Arsenal with 70% of your outfield players are of no threat. Not just having a pop at Lucas and Gerrard here because they are probably my 2 favourite players of the current crop but it is a totally dysfunctional midfield and an area that BR needs to address in January if we want to be serious about fighting for a top 4 place.
 However, all is not lost. Each weekend a couple of the top 6/7 are dropping points and it just happened to be our turn yesterday. We must win our home games coming up to Christmas and somehow find a formula for winning a couple of the very difficult aways.
 

[Iloveyoumamadou]

I have to say, I'm a bit bemused by the aftermath.

I missed the first 20 minutes of the game and when I walked in to see us 1-0 down, I asked my housemate who was the better team. He's an Arsenal season ticket holder, had to miss this game because he has a few big exams this week. Apparently it came against the run of play, and we were controlling the game, with Henderson having missed a good chance for us.

My thoughts on the game - to counter the bodies Arsenal get in attacking areas quickly, from midfield, Gerrard and Lucas played deep, rather than pressuring the midfielders in front of them. Bodies behind the ball, with Henderson pressuring the opponent on the ball. They rarely got in behind us. Arsenal played a few slick passes in front of our defence/midfield, but let's be honest, it rarely went anywhere. And there were more than a few moans of "what the fuck" from said Arsenal supporting housemate when they presented the ball to one of ours. Their midfield 'presence' was overrated going by yesterday's performance - it's not like we didn't get in behind them, with Suarez, Henderson, Sturridge having chances. Coutinho came on and was finding gaps all over the place as well - the weight of the passes wasn't right, so we didn't make the most of it, but he was finding the gaps.

In the end, the 2nd goal killed us off. It's the discussion a lot of have been having all season - our midfield/defence letting players shoot from outside the box. Ramsey's shot was top class, but he had all the time he needed for the ball to come down because of that. But it's one of those that you have to say was fair enough - you challenge opposition players to strike the ball from far out, then you have to hold your hands up when they fly in.

The likes of Henderson, Lucas and Gerrard getting criticism. A lot of criticism. But I think they probably played as they were set out to play. We've some games against lower league teams coming up with Everton sandwiched between a couple, and to be honest, we'll play differently against those teams, and I'd expect us to win all of them. Gerrard and Lucas will not be sitting in front of the defence like yesterday and you'd expect the midfield dynamic to be more geared towards getting Gerrard further up the pitch like he was against West Brom last week, leaving Lucas to be the sole pivot in the middle.

I'd like to see Allen come in to the side, because I think he's better than Henderson on the ball, and going by pre season and that Notts County game (before his injury, also had the energy to get up and down the field (getting into the box a fair bit too). I think we'd add more creativity and intelligence in the middle if he came in. Of course, Coutinho's also back now, and you'd expect him to start next game. Maybe he's the one who comes in for Henderson.

The lads need to get back on it next game, and rip into these lower league sides. Gerrard, Lucas and Allen/Henderson/Coutinho in front of them should be more than enough to beat Fulham, Hull, Norwich etc. The Everton game will be the interesting one because they'll be expected to go for the win. But I don't think we'll go there set up like we were yesterday, and we should get the space again to make the most of that.

We'll get back on track next week, with hopefully a sound battering of Fulham.

Very good post mate. People saying we were completely outplayed are overeacting and we had to play cissokho and Flanagan in the wing back positions. We could have nicked a draw and we did have quite a few chances.

[didi shamone]

I'd agree that we weren't embarrassed. It was a tight game but they totally deserved the win. I also agree that we were three against five in midfield and that didn't help matters. Our wingbacks are fullbacks in reality and the system doesn't suit them. However no matter how we lined up we can't escape the fact that they have superior quality in midfield. They'd most likely beat us irrespective of line up or personal. No great shame in that though. They're currently the best team in the league. They have the best midfield in the league and had home advantage.
I was happy to hear Rodgers admit that we lost the game in midfield. It means he's looking in the right area for players. The debate for me is whether the midfield options we left out would do a better job than those currently playing. I'm not convinced they would but that's one for Brendan to work out. In my mind we're probably an outside bet for top four but we'll be in the shake up. Things will look pretty good if we just put Fulham away as we should.

[locultom]

Well, that was disappointing; soundly beaten in every department. Our main issues were at wingback and in midfield and it was obvious after 10 mins that today was the day to put a back four in and pose them problems with power, pace and directness. That we didn't do this or have the flexibility on the pitch to convert to these tactics is a mark against the manager - though he did change it formation wise at half time.

From the off Arsenal doubled up on our wingbacks and looked to get a player in between Skrtl and the outside CBs when they were drawn out. We weren't good at keeping the gaps even between the back 3 and our wingbacks didn't drop in properly to allow us to shift over. Neither wingback was aggressive enough in attack or defence and they were slow to close down, collapse into shape and overlap. Skrtel pulled the back 3 too deep at times and the midfield triangle was far too stretched with gaps appearing any time Lucas moved towards a overload. In the first half when we did recycle the ball in midfield too many players, especially Henderson, showed the man on the ball the back of his shirt.

Arsenal pressed in and around our midfield very effectively and the pace off movement really troubled us. They continually flooded areas, particularly either side of Lucas and around the wingbacks and when we got sucked in, quickly moved the ball out again. On the few occasions we got our midfield triangle close together and moved the ball quickly we managed to get Sturridge and Suarez turned in between the lines but we never got a link to them going consistently and they were starved of the ball. I was hoping half time would enable us to regroup and rethink our play.

The 2nd half change of shape at least helped us to stop the simple double up at wingback and protected us from getting sucked over into these areas. Arsenal adjusted to this themselves and began to push extra players in and around leggy Lucas, who at times I felt for, as Gerrard and Henderson spent periods of the half ball watching whilst Arsenal played around them. Even in attack there was a frustrating moment were Henderson plays a short ball in behind the full back for Moses and just stands there watching. Talking of Moses, we really missed the power and directness of him, Enrique and Johnson today; as I said earlier it was clear this would have posed the 'right' sort of problems for Arsenal.

In attack Suarez and Sturridge got a little more of the ball around the box in the second have but most things were forced or rushed. Koscielny played Suarez very well and I was surprised that Sturridge didn't drop in to hold up and link the play more. At times the Rodgers phrase that they are both 9.5s stuck out as there were quite a few occasions where we could have actually done with them playing as a 9 and a 10. We tried to remedy this with Coutinho playing from the left to the centre between the lines and his natural ability and instincts almost got us in a few times, but he was a little off as would be expected on his return.

Anyway, we are in decent shape after 10 games even if this was a disappointing evening. It seems a fairly natural point at which to reassess our use of formation and personnel and come back out stronger and wiser.

[John C]

There was me thinking both goals were great examples of excellent technique.

A tinge of sarcasm there VdM which even I winced at having heaped plenty praise towards Arsenal . Of course the goals were preventable but rather than being too negative about why we failed to take any points I'm inclined to admire a decent display from the gunners. They passed it well and they found the space between our lines regularly. They looked to me what we aspire to be imo.

I thought Flanagan did fine. He gave us an option wide when we had the ball but we didn’t use him well and he tucked in smartly when we didn’t have the ball. I don’t agree he was at fault for their first goal.
We missed both Johnson & Enrique when we had the ball to provide a threatening width and when we didn't to give a bit more energy to close their space.

[goalrushatgoodison]

To be honest it was everything I expected and more. We really aren't anywhere near the level we like to think we are. Arsenal won without breaking sweat and I'd gladly have taken the final whistle as soon as Ramsey was given the freedom of the Emirates to control the ball, set himself and secure the points.
 I didn't really learn anything I didn't already know other than the fact John Flanagan might actually have a future here. He at least looked like he gave a fuck. The sooner Agger is back in the team the better and the same goes for Enrique so the hapless Cissokho can fight for a place on the bench.
 The lack of creativity and guile is astounding. Coutinho's passing was way off and that's to be expected given he hasn't played for 6 weeks but at least he attempted to play the forward's in. Suarez and Sturridge are living on scraps and it's to their credit they've scored as many as they have in this side.
 Statistics can be bent to suit your own arguments...you only have to look at a crab like Jamie Redknapp to realise pass-completion etc can make a totally ineffective player look decent. But our individual stats yesterday were damning, we had 2 MF's who offered us absolutely nothing offensively. No shots either on target, off target or blocked...zilch.
 When you compound this with playing with 5 defenders, because that's what we are doing however you want to dress it up, and those 5 defenders are also totally impotent in the final 3rd then it's a recipe to not win football matches. You simply cannot compete with teams like Arsenal with 70% of your outfield players are of no threat. Not just having a pop at Lucas and Gerrard here because they are probably my 2 favourite players of the current crop but it is a totally dysfunctional midfield and an area that BR needs to address in January if we want to be serious about fighting for a top 4 place.
 However, all is not lost. Each weekend a couple of the top 6/7 are dropping points and it just happened to be our turn yesterday. We must win our home games coming up to Christmas and somehow find a formula for winning a couple of the very difficult aways.

If all you have wrote is true, it's a wonder arsenal didn't win 25 nil.

We weren't THAT bad particularly when you take into account the difficulty of the fixture.

I thought Brendan should of abandoned the wing back system when Johnson cried off. I understand that he will have drilled the team before hand with this system but if he felt it was ok to abandon it after 45 minutes then he probably should of thought it was ok beforehand.

There were also some below par individual performances, in fact they will all probably think they could have done better.

However there were positives - you correctly refer to Couthinio' passing been off but The fact that he got a few chances to put the front two in, against what at that stage was a packed defence, was encouraging. We had some chances, both clear-cut and less so but things didn't go our way.

Most importantly we looked dangerous every time we got into the final third. On another day we would have scored one of our chances and we would have created better chances from our final third possession. That's football - sometimes nothing goes right.

On Arsenal - I thought they were excellent and obviously deserved the points. However I have seen them be more dominant and lose.

[Red Genius]

A tinge of sarcasm there VdM which even I winced at having heaped plenty praise towards Arsenal . Of course the goals were preventable but rather than being too negative about why we failed to take any points I'm inclined to admire a decent display from the gunners. They passed it well and they found the space between our lines regularly. They looked to me what we aspire to be imo.

I agree, it was two fold which was head and shoulders above our rigid play - their players passed quickly and with urgency, the movement too was energetic and positive. A lot of their players played as Suarez does, positive and in the face of the opposition. The expression boys against men is ironic as most of their midfield and attack are relatively young in comparison to our midfield and defence and it was the energy and enthusiasm (movement and running) which caused us havoc.

Hey, at the end of the day it was Arsenal at the Emirates, i'd have chalked 0 points next to that at the beginning of the season, so it's not a travesty that we didn't come away with something, i think the negativity in some quarters stems from the dissapointment that although we competed we never really looked a better team than Arsenal which is currently the benchmark - whilst we can dream i think realistically if we were to secure 4th this year that in itself would represent massive progression. From 7th and 8th to 1st, well when you consider it logically it's a massive step. Still next what 5 games or so, we have a great chance to carry on picking up maximum points and we'll see how we're getting on closer to that half way mark of the season.

I'm still very positive, despite the observations that there are clearly areas for improvement, and i'm not certain that our 3 at the back option is the best for every game, maybe a lesson Brendan will take from this game is that, this approach has it's place but perhaps not every week as a starting point.

[The Playmaker]

This was arguably our biggest test of the season so far. We had to go away to the Emirates to the league leaders and try to take something from the game. We didn’t achieve it but I have to laugh when people write or say that it was men against boys. That response seems almost childish to me. Our strikers had an off day – which can happen from time to time. It wasn’t like we lost 6-0 and it wasn’t like Arsenal battered us either. Granted, a loss is a loss but it wasn’t a comprehensive victory for Arsenal by any means.

We started the game quite well with the right intentions. We pressed, forced errors and passed it quite nicely but the first goal completely changed the complex of the game and we seemed to change our approach after that goal. The first goal was poor defending from both of the wingbacks. Cissokho couldn’t prevent Sagna from providing the cross to Cazorla. Cazorla hit the post and followed up the rebound with ease. Flanagan had not tracked back or put Cazorla under any pressure what-so-ever.

The second goal saw both Steven Gerrard and Lucas Leiva vacating space for Aaron Ramsey. They both went for the same ball and Ramsey received a pass, had the time to set himself and scored a beautiful goal. Henderson didn’t put him under any pressure either and was jogging back towards our goal. It was really poor from our perspective but take nothing away from Arsenal – they took their chances on the day and we clearly didn’t.

To be fair to the group of players they kept trying until the end which cannot be criticised in my opinion. We got in behind their defence quite a few times. I still feel that our team has shown a lot of character this season which is a massive positive. I do think that Brendan Rodgers will change the formation after this game and that he will probably go for the 4-2-3-1 at home to Fulham or possibly for the 4-4-2.

A massive positive is that Coutinho is back. He can and will create many chances for our side and hopefully weigh in with some goals. He couldn’t quite execute his passes yesterday, probably due to the fact that he was rusty, but his vision at times makes me drool. In terms of the rest of the midfield, I don’t see that many goals to be honest. Iago Aspas was also brought in but seems to be heading down the same road as Fabio Borini. Anyway, that’s enough from me. We need to move on and focus on the Fulham game and go all out to get three points.

[OperationIvy]

I didn't think we were comprehensively beaten, our goal wasn't repeatedly threatened, both sides to- ing and fro-ing and so on. But I did think that Arsenal's defensive tactics annulled SaS very well and of the two teams, sadly, we looked the least likely to score.

What's missing?

Jose Enrique and Glen Johnson (I think we would have won if these two were playing)

We were getting nothing from the wings going forward and were not able to spread the play. Cissoko is not good enough. It was a bit unfair to play Flanagan in that formation.

[Severely]

Everyone's talking about the midfield - understandably so, but I'd like to know what the solution should be. Do you drop Lucas or Gerrard? Lucas and Gerrard? Because they just don't seem to be working out as a partnership. There's a lack of understanding between the two - they both challenge the same man, or both vacate the same space expecting the other to fill it, Lucas looks lost at times as to how he should position himself relative to Stevie and Gerrard looks wary of actually moving up field towards goal. How do we solve this problem? Do we have the players to come in or do we make do until January? If we need new players, who?

[TheMissionary]

Their goals were far too easy.

1st Cissoko beaten far too easily, with no-one tracking Cazorla - Lucas/Flannagan take your pick. No surprise he was hooked at h.t.

2nd Kolo turned his back on the Ramsey shot.

Both preventable. But the best team (by a distance) won.

Agree with all you say apart from the bit in brackets.  Despite what the papers, 5live, and MOTD may say Arsenal did not take us to the cleaners.  They were indeed the better team, I completely agree, but a two goal victory flattered them.  They scored against the run of play which gave them confidence to knock it about, and we let them, but they were ineffective with it, they didn't cause us any concerns until after the second goal (mostly down to our lack of pressing) when we started chasing the game.   The difference between the teams was finishing and the approach of the midfields, their's was there to support the striker, ours was there to protect the defence; consequently the ball moved through their midfield a lot more rapidly than it did through ours.  But it's been ever thus this season, for every 100 balls played out from the back 90 of them are immediately returned so they can be passed forward again.  Pressing teams then close the ball down and we end up launching it forward (or into the stands).  Our midfield don't seem to be able to turn when they receive the ball until we're chasing a result, it's as if they've been told to play it the way they're facing, and as they're receiving it from the back they'll simply play it back.  Perfect example yesterday when Kolo and Stevie swapped passes a couple of times before Kolo gave it to Giroud (I think) while knocking it square to Skrtel.   Stevie had lots of time and two opportunities to turn and look forward.  Is he incapable?  Do they not communicate on the pitch?  Is he told to just keep the ball no matter what?  It's perplexing and quite frustrating, ball retention is admirable but if it puts goals at risk we need to find a different approach. 

We lost to a bloody good team on their own pitch yesterday.  We have nothing to be ashamed of but there are lessons to be learned and a more dynamic forward looking midfield is the main solution in my eyes.  It's not going to happen over night with the personnel we have but we can use Stevie more sparingly to rest his legs and give other players time to develop.  Stevie looked lethargic (was that the role he was asked to play?) and even when we were chasing the game he didn't look like he could.  He needs time off and we need to see more of Allen and Luis Alberto in games like next weekend.   Whatever combination BR selects at the back we look solid (apart from set pieces), and the front two, when serviced properly, are unstoppable.  Coutinho's return will help with that but the midfield needs to buck its ideas up and learn to support the front rather than protect the back. 

[shizzledizzle]

I'm a bit worried about a couple of things:

I really think that our defence is good, we have really good players in Sakho, Toure and Skrtel (not to mention Agger who is on the bench currently) but we seem to concede every game some irresponsible goals, So do you think that we should change our new found system into something else? or is it just being unlucky? I don't know, I only know we have 4 really good centre backs.

After the game I thought we weren't that bad, we were ok the first half (that goal by Cazorla really took the wind off our sails) and for the ten first minutes at the start of the 2nd (especially some good passes and good vision from Coutinho) but we didn't really pose a threat as some said rightfully already. But what worries me is that if you look in hindsight do you think our squad currently has something to offer against this Arsenal side? I mean can someone here give good reasons why we could have beaten Arsenal had we been playing in a different formation?

I'm not too disappointed because it was a difficult game and Arsenal are better than us in some respects, at the moment. I'm sure we can really improve our game and hopefully Rodgers will learn from this experience the same way he learned from different results and situations during his tenure so far. And of course we have the January transfer window to bolster our midfield.

[CHOPPER]

We got beat fair and square. You can split the hairs over it, but we got beat fairly.

My only gripe - why didn't the ref give and play advantage to the attacking side when Suarez was fouled? just so he could give a booking when he could quite easily of let the play continue? Poor form mister ref.



 

[Tony19:6]

Agree with all you say apart from the bit in brackets.  Despite what the papers, 5live, and MOTD may say Arsenal did not take us to the cleaners.  They were indeed the better team, I completely agree, but a two goal victory flattered them.  They scored against the run of play which gave them confidence to knock it about, and we let them, but they were ineffective with it, they didn't cause us any concerns until after the second goal (mostly down to our lack of pressing) when we started chasing the game.   The difference between the teams was finishing and the approach of the midfields, their's was there to support the striker, ours was there to protect the defence; consequently the ball moved through their midfield a lot more rapidly than it did through ours.  But it's been ever thus this season, for every 100 balls played out from the back 90 of them are immediately returned so they can be passed forward again.  Pressing teams then close the ball down and we end up launching it forward (or into the stands).  Our midfield don't seem to be able to turn when they receive the ball until we're chasing a result, it's as if they've been told to play it the way they're facing, and as they're receiving it from the back they'll simply play it back.  Perfect example yesterday when Kolo and Stevie swapped passes a couple of times before Kolo gave it to Giroud (I think) while knocking it square to Skrtel.   Stevie had lots of time and two opportunities to turn and look forward.  Is he incapable?  Do they not communicate on the pitch?  Is he told to just keep the ball no matter what?  It's perplexing and quite frustrating, ball retention is admirable but if it puts goals at risk we need to find a different approach. 

We lost to a bloody good team on their own pitch yesterday.  We have nothing to be ashamed of but there are lessons to be learned and a more dynamic forward looking midfield is the main solution in my eyes.  It's not going to happen over night with the personnel we have but we can use Stevie more sparingly to rest his legs and give other players time to develop.  Stevie looked lethargic (was that the role he was asked to play?) and even when we were chasing the game he didn't look like he could.  He needs time off and we need to see more of Allen and Luis Alberto in games like next weekend.   Whatever combination BR selects at the back we look solid (apart from set pieces), and the front two, when serviced properly, are unstoppable.  Coutinho's return will help with that but the midfield needs to buck its ideas up and learn to support the front rather than protect the back. 

Agree with most of that but a 2 goal victory didn't flatter them.

Btw I couldn't watch MOTD or buy a paper today and avoid 5 Live like the plague 

[Filler.]

As ever with a game like this, an away game to a team that's kicking about near you, especially the Arsenals, City's Man Utd's etc, you get asked (or you ask) whether you'd take a point before the game. Usually I do, but I always hesitate. I never say 'definitely'. With the game away at Arsenal I had a firm no - I wanted to see this out, and was quietly, internally, a bit bullish. When I heard Johnson was out and Flanagan was in I switched - and I'd have taken that point if offered there and then. Not because Flannagan was playing, but that Johnson wasn't. He's key to this shape working - as is his counterpart on the other side, tho unfortunately, without any of the quality. (I did wonder, tho it's probably nonsense, if something similar spread thru the team before the game).

I thought we'd go quite 'compact' in the early exchanges - a more 532 type flavour to the 352, which I think we did and nobody looked on top for the opening exchanges, tho I was a little disheartened to see Mignolet boot the ball up twice to their keeper in the first minute. I hate that - it spreads a disease. In a way it says... we're cagey, and I don't trust the engine room.

What I also hoped for was that we'd see Gerrard and Henderson slowly growing into the game after seeing both teams cancelling eachother out in the opening passages... picking their moments, slowly but surely to move the ball up and to get at them - to connect with the front two and bring a threat. That kind of happened in the 9th minute when Henderson did well to win the ball. The four or 5 seconds that happened after that... where you could literally see his spine slowly crawling it's way out of his arse, was hugely disappointing. It was disappointing because I've seen something similar countless times. Henderson doesn't get the blame for this loss at all, but bloody hell. It's not like he's lost something and will hopefully get it back, he's just never had it (never had this end of the game for a midfielder), and it doesn't look likely to come that soon either.

Having said that I'd play him again, in the same shape for next weekend, if Johnson is fit. But the midfield needs a serious look at now, it really does. It's been about 5 years since we've had a midfield that you could look at and go... yeah, we'll be OK. That's not totally true, we've had good periods in there, particularly the 6 or so months before the injury to Lucas, which was a killer.


We did have a good period at the beginning of the second half tho, but I don't like to see Coutinho out on the left. He brought some much needed brightness to our game because he's a quality player, but I don't think the change worked that well. Henderson right, Coutinho left - just felt clunky and ugly.


Some people have pointed to Rodgers for getting it wrong tactically, and some have pointed to the personnel... I think it was a bit of a mixture between the two, and we sometimes forget where we are as a club and as a squad. Arsenal occupied the middle, and fully deserved the win. They have a ridiculous wealth and depth of players who play there, and most of them, are pretty bloody good.


The important thing is to learn something from the game - and it's one thing that I've felt Rodgers is good at - learning from things.

If asked at the beginning of the season would I have taken 3rd spot by Guy Fawkes night? I'd have taken that. Important few games coming up before December... ones we should look to capitalise on. Maybe we can get our Mojo back on for that tough Christmas period.

[Crosby Nick]

Not much to add really apart from a gripe about that Sagna foul (not the decision to bring play back afterwards but the foul itself). Fuck me that was a cynical piece of play. One we may have applauded had it been one of ours pulling down Ozil. Not the last man so the ref was never going to give more than a Yellow for it but of all the players in the world you'd fancy to skin the last man and be through on goal then Suarez has to be up there so technically it was a pretty clear goalscoring opportunity. What happened straight afterwards just compounded the frustration.

[Filler.]

With the foul on Suarez, the ref had made his decision to give a free kick and to card Sagne. He blew it... pointed, and that was that... everybody stopped for the clear foul. It was an 'orange' of a card.

Bit of devils advocate here... but if Suarez had a reputation of getting back on his feet and often went immediately to the 'can I get back up and play a quick pass' type of response, maybe the ref would have waited a little while. The decision to halt play and brandish a card didn't depend on anything to do with 'reputation' tho - he just made the decision. Don't think you can fault the ref.

[Prof]

Yes, both goals were preventable, but that can be said for any goal.  Arsenal were the better side by some distance.

What's positive, is that we could have nicked something from the game anyway, and that's because we actually showed a good attitude, despite chasing shadows for 70 minutes.

From a tactical perspective, a few things interested me.

3-5-2 versus 4-2-3-1:

Arsenal loaded the centre of the pitch, so won this area.  In return, it meant we had our wing backs and front two esentially up against their  back four.  Unfortunately, our wing-backs offered very little.  Flanaghan got into some good positions, but didn't make use of them (unlike Sagna for their first) and Cissokho looks a long way off the player we need at the moment.  [Sakho had a great game and bailed Cissokho out a few times.  I've been impressed with his reading of the games.]

Suarez and Sturridge didn't get much opportunity to isolate the centre backs.  Henderson's run at 0-0 was interesting as both CBs got pulled (and were happy to go) in opposite directions by the movement of the front two.  I think this as much as anything surprised Henderson as he delayed in what was the most promising position we had in the match.

4-4-2 versus 4-2-3-1:

We were losing the midfield battle, so it surprised me to see us make this change.  It didn't surprise me to see their second goal coming from that notorious space in behind the midfield line.

Two men up-front:

As controversial as it would be, I think we need to consider the option of playing a lone forward away at the big teams.  Particularly at Chelsea and Man City (and Arsenal in the future) as they load their midfields with quality.

Starting with one striker still leaves the option to bring the second on, but there's no way Rodgers would have taken one off at 1-0 down, although this would have been our best chance to get back into the game.

The wing-back issue:

The player who had the biggest contribution for us from full-back/wing-back in the game was Henderson.  He put in a couple of dangerous crosses from very deep wide positions, and we know he has the engine to do the work required.  I think he offers some value in the midfield, but Gerrard and Lucas aren't going to be moved out (which I can understand), and Coutinho is bound to come back in.

On the left, I'd put Johnson, he's demonstrated before he can be effective on that side, and to be honest, I think our other options are liabilities for different reasons.

[Prof]

With the foul on Suarez, the ref had made his decision to give a free kick and to card Sagne. He blew it... pointed, and that was that... everybody stopped for the clear foul. It was an 'orange' of a card.

Bit of devils advocate here... but if Suarez had a reputation of getting back on his feet and often went immediately to the 'can I get back up and play a quick pass' type of response, maybe the ref would have waited a little while. The decision to halt play and brandish a card didn't depend on anything to do with 'reputation' tho - he just made the decision. Don't think you can fault the ref.

The ref blowing for the foul isn't the issue. It's that Suarez took the resulting free kick quickly (and should be entitled to do so, particularly as the reason Sagna deliberately fouled was to slow down the play, gaining an unfair advantage) but the ref didn't let it run.  Very frrustrating, as we needed to make the few opportunities we had to score count, and that was probably our best.