Author Topic: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1  (Read 19755 times)

Offline jamieredders

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2013, 04:57:14 pm »
I agree with the theory that we only began to sit deep when it was clear that weren't going to be able to continue to dominate the play. My feeling is that we will only be able to dominate away games for a full game once we have a little more quality and depth across the pitch. Suarez's return and the transfer of another top attacking player, plus another central defender that Rodgers actually wants to play, would give us that depth.

However, the leap from past seasons is clearly visible. We are winning games that we would have let slip last season. Our passing seems to be much crisper too, and the preseason had alluded to it. That's what a full preseason with transfers coming in early allows.

Somewhat counterintuitively, it seems that a big difference between our draws and defeats last season and scrappy wins this season seems to me to be a greater number of 'match winners' in the squad. Most might disagree with me, but we had been distinctly lacking in that respect in defence and in goal, whereas Mignolet and Toure have both been saving us points well. Of course, the other big reason is that Rodgers was cautious in the second half, but I wonder whether we would have held out had we been playing with Carrager/Skrtel instead of Toure and Reina instead of Mignolet. Individual match-winning moments shouldn't be ignored.

The difference for me is that we now have four players who can score goals regularly........Gerrard, Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho.

Until we signed the latter 2 in January we only had the two goalscorers.  We doubled our potency in that January transfer window. 

Borini, Sterling, Downing and Henderson just don't score enough goals.

If we can get a 5th, we would be frightening.  If we don't, then we will carry on beating most teams in the league, but maybe just lose out from where we want to be. 
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Offline redtel

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2013, 05:30:25 pm »
I can't improve on the great analysis of a good 1 niller.

I would like to comment on the fitness of the squad and how we have been outplayed in the closing stages of both games.

I hope that the squad isn't 100% fit just yet but is being prepared for a long drawn out season where we need to be in good shape in April/May when many teams are feeling the effects of the winter slog.

Lucas and Gerrard have impressed more in the first 60 mins than the last 30 and we have suffered in the midfield because of this. I am sure there are coaches lurking on here who can confirm that it's in the squads best interests that we don't hit peak fitness in August.

It may also explain BR willingness to sit back in the second half after we took the game to Villa as though playing at Anfield in the first half. It was uplifting to see the ball won back high up the pitch and then another 6 or 7 pass move towards their goal. We can only get better for longer in a game.

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Offline Danny_

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2013, 05:54:50 pm »
The result isn't everything in football, it's the only thing.  I know that it's a cliche but it's true.  Yes, I agree that we might have been put to the sword against a better team for the way we played in the 2nd half.  But, we weren't and the tactics worked against Villa so they were the right tactics.  They got us the result.

It's true that they also showed that we aren't very good at playing counter-attacking football with 10 men behind the ball.  We kicked possession away much too often, we left some spaces for Villa to exploit in the centre in front of our box.  Our headers out for balls floated into the box were not strong enough from the CB's and the second ball often fell to a Villa player giving him a chance to shoot.  All of these weaknesses were emphasized by the 2nd half but they are areas that we can improve upon in training. 

And there were a lot of positives from the game - Sturridge's clinical finish, the movement and passing in the first half, the brave defensive tackles from both our CBs, Gerrard and Lucas in the second half.  We grinded it out and that showed some mental strength.  We aren't very good at playing these kind of tactics but we were good enough on the day and that is all that matters.

Do I think we need to strengthen in certain areas - Yes, of course.  If we do want to play with 10 men behind the ball, we need a monster in the centre to dominate things.  I would have loved for us to get Gustavo but he is gone now.  I don't know if there are any other realistic available targets to play that role for us.  Lucas is good but I don't think he dominates the midfield.  We probably also need another match winner in attack, somebody that can provide an outlet when we are under pressure.  But, our squad is pretty good as it is.  And we have Suarez coming back in a few games time.

I am very optmistic about our start.  The only annoying thing is that Spurs have played horribly but managed to keep pace with us due to two penalties, one of them that was never a penalty.  But, between us and them, I personally think we have the better team right now.  Don't want to jinx us though as they could seriously strengthen before the transfer window closes and odds are that they will.  But, anyone that says we have no chance of 4th place this season isn't paying attention.  We definitely do have a chance - whether we make it or not will depend upon a lot of factors, one being whether we get the luck or not.


Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2013, 06:02:37 pm »
I am simply amazed at how pretty much anything can be recruited to an argument in favor of replacing Lucas or adding a CM to play where he plays that has traits which are, in the end, not those of Lucas.

How the second half of the AVFC match indicates we should have someone other than Lucas as our most withdrawn CM is, frankly, beyond me. But, that's why we have debate and opinions, right?
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Offline Nick @ TorchTriathlon

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2013, 06:22:31 pm »
We're still top of the table, City have lost, one of United and Chelsea losing or each gaining a point. A draw would be good for us, or an exhausting United win, which they won't recover for next week from, leaving points:

Liverpool 9
Tottenham 9 (max)
Chelsea 6
United 6
Arsenal 6 (max)
City 6 (max)

Or LFC 9, Chelsea 9, United 3
Or LFC 6, Chelsea 9, United 6
Or LFC 6, Chelsea 6, United 9
Or LFC 7, Chelsea 7, United 5
Or LFC 7, Chelsea 9, United 4
Or LFC 7, Chelsea 6, United 7

Any of those options look very appealing to me. Though other than the first two they're irrelevant as we're going to twat the Mancs next week
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2013, 06:37:32 pm »
Honest question, does the keeper only have to touch the ball for the challenge to be ok? He doesn't knock the ball away from the danger just gets a finger to it and trips Sturridge over in the process, is that acceptable contact?

Either way awesome analyses of the game as usual. 3pts on to Notts County :)

No. The keeper touching the ball is irrelevant. The rule states:

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

    kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
    trips or attempts to trip an opponent
    jumps at an opponent
    charges an opponent
    strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
    pushes an opponent
    tackles an opponent


No mention of contact with the ball in the rules.
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Offline stockdam

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2013, 07:57:52 pm »
Time will tell if we are better at grinding out 1-0 wins like Utd have done many times in the past. Both of our games so far have been close and both could easily have resulted in draws.....the mood here would have been very different.

The mark of a good team is to come away with the 3 points even if the other team had a lot of the match.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2013, 09:05:04 pm »
No. The keeper touching the ball is irrelevant. The rule states:

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

    kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
    trips or attempts to trip an opponent
    jumps at an opponent
    charges an opponent
    strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
    pushes an opponent
    tackles an opponent


No mention of contact with the ball in the rules.

Surely that's only in the case of it being careless, reckless, or using excessive force.

The keeper touching the ball is irrelevant? Really? Come on...

So a defender can trip someone in the box as long as its not careless, reckless, or using excessive force? And they don't have to touch the ball?

One again, the player touching the ball is irrelevant?

You're having a laugh.

Why do referees point to the ball after a tough but fair tackle?

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2013, 09:33:22 pm »
Surely that's only in the case of it being careless, reckless, or using excessive force.

The keeper touching the ball is irrelevant? Really? Come on...

So a defender can trip someone in the box as long as its not careless, reckless, or using excessive force? And they don't have to touch the ball?

One again, the player touching the ball is irrelevant?

You're having a laugh.

Why do referees point to the ball after a tough but fair tackle?

You'll have to take it up with the FA, I don't write the rules.
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Offline DG

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2013, 10:13:26 pm »
Posted this in the Villa post match thread but it sort of drowned in all the nonsense so I thought I'd repost it here.

"Three points is three points and to win away at Villa was more than I expected after watching them vs Arsenal and Chelsea. Here's my take on the game:
 
First half
 
For 40 minutes things go completely according to plan. Villa try to overload the left flank just like against Arsenal and Chelsea, but Johnson with the help of the defensively sound Henderson and Lucas nullified their threat completely. This also resulted in Benteke constantly straying to the left which meant he was up against Toure which was the preferable choice as Agger is not as strong in the air. This also freed up Agger to help Enrique with Weimann as I hoped it would before the game, and it freed up Coutinho from his defensive duties which increased our counter attacking threat. Gerrard and Lucas were incredibly disciplined at the base of our midfield to deny any tries for the direct ball to Benteke and even though Gerrard had a poor game by his standards with the ball, it's been a long time since I've seen him as disciplined as he was today.
 
Towards the end of the first half though, roundabout the 40 minutes mark, Villa switched play and started to balance it a bit, which put Benteke up against Agger once or twice which could have resulted in an equalizer if not for a good save by Mignolet.
 
Second half
 
Villa started attacking more and more down their right, our left flank, and we were vulnerable in the air as Weimann got into the game with Delph often being free from his marker (Aspas). However, we switched Lucas to the left side of our central midfield and that helped but Villa still looked threatening. Eventually, and a bit late in my opinion, we switched to a flat 4-4-1-1 by taking Aspas off for Cissokho and that nullified their threat fairly well. We kept things under control until they took off Weimann to change to a flat 4-4-2 which once again threatened our centre backs and we took off Coutinho to get the more defensively sound Allen on the pitch. A decision I disagreed with but it paid off as Allen helped Lucas and Gerrard at the base of our midfield to keep cutting the supply to Benteke.
 
In the end, most tactical decisions were in line with what I hoped for before the game and we leave Villa Park with three points, which honestly is more than I expected."

Offline Prof

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2013, 10:26:15 pm »

So a defender can trip someone in the box as long as its not careless, reckless, or using excessive force? And they don't have to touch the ball?

A deliberte trip would be 'reckless' and an accidental trip where they don't play the ball 'careless'.  If they play the ball first, it isn't 'careless'.

Where I get annoyed is when a defending player slides in, misses the ball, and the attacker dives over the slide to avoid contact.  The debate normally circles around whether there was contact.  If they attempt to tackle a player, but miss the ball, surely this is careless or reckless?  Contact with the player is irrelevant if the player has had to  avoid contact.  Alternatively, it could be considered to be an attempt to trip the player.


Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2013, 05:03:33 am »
You'll have to take it up with the FA, I don't write the rules.

The rules are right, you're misinterpreting them. See Prof above.

You're right too Prof, technically I think if a player has to hurdle a slide tackle then it is a free kick (provided obviously the tackler doesn't play the ball) - possibly for obstruction? Don't have my rule book on me, but you're also right in that its never paid as a free kick any more.

Offline professorj

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2013, 08:21:06 am »
There's an awful lot of confusion about the laws of the game, certainly amongst TV pundits, but then they were never the brightest. 

Unfortunately, this translates to a confusion among TV viewers who probably assume that 'Robbie Savage' knows what he's talking about.

I've heard things recently like (apply your own Geordie/Welsh/Craig Burley accent)  'That wasn't deliberate, but it was a clear penalty' (after the ball struck the Chelsea player's arm).

The issue is whether the refs apply a consistency to what they see and I really think they don't.  The addition of Mark Halsey to BT Sport MAY actually be quite informative, but I doubt whether he'll be stabbing too many of his former colleagues in the back on live TV.

Oh and to be more on on-topic - really good to win a little ugly (2nd half).  Some of the movement and popping it about (for want of a more erudite phrase) was fabulous in the first half.  Kolo impressed me once again, and he won't have a tougher assignment all season than Benteke away.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2013, 09:23:27 am »
The rules are right, you're misinterpreting them. See Prof above.

You're right too Prof, technically I think if a player has to hurdle a slide tackle then it is a free kick (provided obviously the tackler doesn't play the ball) - possibly for obstruction? Don't have my rule book on me, but you're also right in that its never paid as a free kick any more.
Actually Profs analysis is in-line with Nessy.

I find it amusing you've taken such a hardline stance on this, but you clearly don't understand the rules as they are written.

Remember there is a difference between what the rule is, and how refs have tended to interpret them. Eg, looking for contact with the player or the ball. Those things are guidelines used to assist refs, but they are not the rules themselves.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2013, 09:28:11 am »
A deliberte trip would be 'reckless' and an accidental trip where they don't play the ball 'careless'.  If they play the ball first, it isn't 'careless'.

Where I get annoyed is when a defending player slides in, misses the ball, and the attacker dives over the slide to avoid contact.  The debate normally circles around whether there was contact.  If they attempt to tackle a player, but miss the ball, surely this is careless or reckless?  Contact with the player is irrelevant if the player has had to  avoid contact.  Alternatively, it could be considered to be an attempt to trip the player.
That really annoys me also. It comes up in the diving debates often and is frustrating no end.

Example would be ngog a couple of seasons ago 'diving' to avoid contact, but if he hadnt he could have been seriously injured. Letter of the law, that is a penalty regardless of contact, but ngog was made a pariah.
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Offline woof

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2013, 10:05:53 am »
It wasn't good viewing in the second half but I reckon BR got the tactics spot on. Here's a Villa unit that could carve teams up with their lightning counter-attacks. All they were left to were outside chances. Toure certainly had something to do with it. BR finally has a reliable CB pairing. As good as Carra is, Toure is (I hate to say this in honour of Carra) a better CB than Carra. He's dominant in the air and doesn't just hoof it up.

As the game grew, I was crying out for for defensive reinforcements in either flank (obvious choice was left since Hendo does a decent job assisting GJ) and BR made exactly that change. I believe he's learned from previous mistakes of going out for the kill when we're playing with fire. Against other teams, going for the kill was probably the right thing but not against Villa. They have shown it against Arsenal and Chelsea and they could have easily done it to us had we go out on attack.

It's still early days but the signs are encouraging. We still need a CB understudy for Toure, an understudy to Lucas and another creative midfielder.

ManUre will be a different proposition and it'll take precision to unlock their stubborn defence.

Offline sattapaartridge

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2013, 10:51:08 am »
I am simply amazed at how pretty much anything can be recruited to an argument in favor of replacing Lucas or adding a CM to play where he plays that has traits which are, in the end, not those of Lucas.

How the second half of the AVFC match indicates we should have someone other than Lucas as our most withdrawn CM is, frankly, beyond me. But, that's why we have debate and opinions, right?

What do you mean? Seriously. He cant play every match. He's our only recognised defensive minded midfielder. At times Gerrard was deeper than Lucas, so Gerrard was also playing a deeper role. Gerrard is no longer the collosus he used to be in that area. His quality on the ball is still there, his long and short passing too. Lucas has never been gifted with a Yaya Toure physique, and these are the sorts of players that the lower league teams have blasting through our football playing central 3. It should be, and is a worry. This is why fans are talking about going 3 at the back, negating the need for a proper strong DM. Lucas also has shown some great passing in the last to games. His vision and confidence seems great than ever before. Senior player mentality.

This is probably why Henderson is getting the nod ahead of Allen at this time. Stoke and Villa are physically strong. When we meet the biggest CM test this season, we will see where we are. In my opinion, the strongest central 3 is Dembele, Capoue and Paulinho.

Anyway, how good are Toure and Mignolet eh? For me, When villa came at us, they were solid. Mignolet's saves have effectively kept us the lead. I hate to mention our former keeper, but could you really say if he was here, he'd make those saves?

I thought Coutinho had a very difficult game, he was hustled, he was doubled up on and he found it difficult to turn his man. His movement along with Aspas was good, but could be better. I dont know what the surface was like, but it was weird to see following how great we were against Stoke. I did think Enrique had a good game in the first half, he got foward and in around the box. I'm sure he was credited with the assist too?

I think we could have expected more from Aspas. He gets an A for effort, but he seems like one that needs a goal desperately. I'm taking nothing away from how Villa played. They wont be fighting relegation with the fight that they showed in the 2nd half, but Aspas to be didnt show much threat. Early days, but Sterling really has to be knocking on the door to replace him eh?

I think with Sturridge still yet to hit full fitness, and the return of Suarez, we are looking good. To grind out a result like this is a very good sign.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2013, 11:22:40 am »
Actually Profs analysis is in-line with Nessy.

What? How do you figure that?

A deliberate trip would be 'reckless' and an accidental trip where they don't play the ball 'careless'.  If they play the ball first, it isn't 'careless'.

That seems to be saying that if they play the ball first, it isn't careless, and therefore not a free kick. No, wait, that's exactly what it's saying.

I'm not saying that just because Prof says it it's right (sorry Prof, you're not the gospel just yet!), but I can't see how he's disagreeing with me? Willing to admit I'm wrong if I've misunderstood something, though...

I find it amusing you've taken such a hardline stance on this, but you clearly don't understand the rules as they are written.

Again, it's not me that's misinterpreting the rules.

You need to interpret what classifies as 'reckless', and 'careless'. I agree in general with Prof's interpretation. Just because the above clause (which is obviously only a small excerpt from the rule book) doesn't mention whether or not the player wins the ball, you must know that this is a huge part of whether or not a free kick is paid from actually watching the game for I assume a number of years, surely?

If you make a tackle (assuming it's not reckless or with intent to injure) and you win the ball and then the player trips over you/the ball, it is not a free kick. If you don't win the ball and instead take the player, it is a free kick. That's the simplest way to describe it in layman's terms, and that is how the rule is applied (and has been for as long as I've known). I honestly don't understand this intentional attempt by people to misunderstand the rules, and try and rephrase things from the rule book out of context.

Obviously it's not to say that winning the ball means it's never a free kick. You can be reckless and endanger a players safety even when winning the ball, as we know (i.e. two-footed tackles, tackles from behind, etc), but a goalkeeper running out and finger-tipping the ball off a strikers boot hardly falls into this category.

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2013, 11:32:21 am »
Superb result and a performance almost as good.  That is the type of game we have not been able to play for the last few years so it’s refreshing to see.

The thread seems to be dominated by the change of tactics, whether deliberate, forced or serendipitous.  I think many of us in this thread are not giving the team or Rodgers enough credit.  Remember the opposition are primarily a counter attacking side (perhaps this explains their home form under current management).  In the Premier League no matter where you play away from home you will get that surge of momentum from the home side, driven mainly by the demanding crowd, at some point in the match.  It may last 10 minutes, it may last 30 minutes, but you can almost guarantee it will come.  So the ability to adjust, with the level of coordination we showed on Saturday, is almost necessary to picking up points away from home.  What the team showed was awareness and an appreciation of in-game tactics.  Add to the fact that this Villa side have just beaten Arsenal and run Chelsea pretty close, it’s an all-round impressive feat to stop them scoring in their first home game.  Let’s not forget that a player like Benteke is normally kryptonite to our defence.  To limit Villa to, what I believe, was one real good chance in 93 minutes is progress.

Overall, I thought there was a measure of control about our game.  Lucas and Gerrard epitomised this and seemingly their calm was contagious.  I really liked how we used both players as pivots in the first half, where passes forward by Lucas/Gerrard were instantly returned, allowing us to keep the ball in good areas with options both backwards (to the centrebacks) and forwards into Coutinho or Aspas.  I thought we had Villa dishevelled at this point.  A genuine criticism could be the lack of chances we created following the goal but a match with a lack of chances suited us and so it was.

Lucas and Gerrard did tire towards the end but I still remember Gerrard making a 50 yard sprint late on, after the ball had got behind in him, to clear for a corner.  No more jogging back for Stevie. 

Where does Suarez fit in when he returns?  The answer is obvious, but in reality is it?  Taking the Villa game as an example, he’ll have to adapt his game a little.  Fewer turnovers for certain.  But this is a player who had the most touches of the ball in the opposition box in the league last season.  It may have been out of sight with him in the team.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2013, 01:20:33 pm »
The rules are right, you're misinterpreting them. See Prof above.

You're right too Prof, technically I think if a player has to hurdle a slide tackle then it is a free kick (provided obviously the tackler doesn't play the ball) - possibly for obstruction? Don't have my rule book on me, but you're also right in that its never paid as a free kick any more.

I didn't offer an interpretation, those are just the rules. There is no mention of whether or not a player makes contact with the ball. You don't need your rule book on you, I just quoted the actual rules up there, shortly before you had your spasm.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2013, 01:45:50 pm »
I didn't offer an interpretation, those are just the rules. There is no mention of whether or not a player makes contact with the ball. You don't need your rule book on you, I just quoted the actual rules up there, shortly before you had your spasm.

Never intended a spasm mate, sorry if it came across that way.

Was just trying to clear up what was obviously a misunderstanding of how the rules were applied. The fact that people can even argue that it was a penalty after seeing the replay boggles my mind. It's such basic root of the game stuff.

Anyway, I avoided name calling and swearing so I'm not sure what else I can do? Sorry if it upset you, I wasnt intending to be aggressive.

As professorj said above, it's the misunderstanding of the game from the presenters on TV I think that trickles down to the every day viewer.

But whatever, everyone has their own opinion.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2013, 01:58:26 pm »
Never intended a spasm mate, sorry if it came across that way.

Was just trying to clear up what was obviously a misunderstanding of how the rules were applied. The fact that people can even argue that it was a penalty after seeing the replay boggles my mind. It's such basic root of the game stuff.

Anyway, I avoided name calling and swearing so I'm not sure what else I can do? Sorry if it upset you, I wasnt intending to be aggressive.

As professorj said above, it's the misunderstanding of the game from the presenters on TV I think that trickles down to the every day viewer.

But whatever, everyone has their own opinion.
No worries.

As I see it, there are cases where a ref will give the foul regardless of whether the player touches the ball. The "TV" version of the rule is that any contact with the ball means no foul, or that if you get the ball first, that's ok. The rules themselves have no such stipulation, although the ref's judgement in whether or not the player is careless or reckless will take into account how likely the player was to get to the ball, and how likely he was to bring down the opponent.

The contact itself is circumstantial.

If the ball took a bobble away from the player, it can't make an honest challenge into a foul, for example.

However, if the challenge is reckless or careless, the fact the player making it got to touch the ball doesn't automatically let him off; it would still be a reckless or careless challenge. Obviously, if you get to the ball, you can make a case that you were likely to get to the ball, but the other side of the coin is how likely you were to harm the opponent.

In this case it was marginal, and the ref gave the benefit of doubt (if he had any) to the keeper.

That is my opinion, but the rules are just what was stated above.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2013, 02:07:56 pm »
If the ball took a bobble away from the player, it can't make an honest challenge into a foul, for example.

I would argue that this would be how referees interpret it though. If a player lunges in and gets the ball clean he'll generally be ok, but if he lunges in and the ball bobbles over his foot I think you'll see a foul given 9 times out of 10. Whether or not this is by the book I don't know, but it's definitely how the game is refereed.

Anyway, I said before I'd shut up about it so I will now :D

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2013, 07:19:00 pm »
With Suarez to come back and maybe one or two good signings we may have a strong team this year.

Chelsea look a bit of a mess unless they bring in a striker, Utd haven't improved, Arsenal have brought nobody in, Spurs have strengthened even if they have lost Bale, Man City still look strong but were turned over by Cardiff at the weekend.

I think the Villa game was a good indicator of where we are as they have a good team.

Let's see some strengthening of the squad before the end of the transfer window closes.
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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #104 on: August 28, 2013, 08:43:42 am »
One of the primary criticisms aimed at Brendan Rodgers since his appointment as Liverpool manager was his 'lack of a plan B', or an almost blinkered devotion to his own ideologies on the game. In other words, a tactical inflexibility.

Well, if ever there was a game to shine a light on that as a fallacy, it was this. We've seen major tactical adaptations from Rodgers before, of course, with the introduction of a back three on occasion being a prime example. We've also seen similar adjustments made during the course of a game as well, but these were all primarily adaptations in formation, not in the overall ideology. Rodgers' ideology of control via the domination of possession was always preserved. What we saw on Saturday represented a further evolution to the tactical flexibility we'd seen previously in the fact that whilst the ideology of control remained, this time the focus was on spacial awareness and the control of zones, as we dropped off and consciously ceded possession, showing a welcome awareness of both Villa's strengths and weaknesses. Aston Villa's strength is personified none better than by Agbonlahor and his pace on the counter attack. So, having taken the lead we looked to negate that threat by minimising the space available to the Aston Villa attack, in turn asking a question of them as a creative force when space is at a premium and they are asked to force the play. In stark contrast to the technique, movement and 'sterile domination' of the first half it was a frustrating tactical shift to witness at times, particularly when we regained possession and too often failed to retain it, but overall it proved effective, encouraging, and arguably necessary. It's vital that we're able to adapt to changing circumstances both prior and during games and this showed that Rodgers and his staff are both willing and able in that regard.

Move the focus onto the players themselves and again there was encouragement to be had in the mentality on display. The dogged determination to 'hold what we have' and see out the result was as impressive as it was encouraging, not least because it's something that we've evidently lacked for some time now and it almost represented something of a throwback to the bygone Houllier and, to a lesser extent, Benitez era's. The togetherness and focus throughout the squad is an element that has been noted in various quarters during pre-season and that has translated to both of what have proved to be tricky opening fixtures. Whilst we all love to eulogise at the free flowing, fluid, attacking football that Rodgers is instilling into the club, equally the mental toughness and determination to dig in and grind out results shouldn't be underestimated. United have been winning league titles on the back of such resolve for two decades. How often do you watch them play and make note that 'they're really not very good', but then watch them go and win the match regardless? Sometimes I think we're too quick to praise others for something that we criticise ourselves for. Subconsciously or otherwise.

On an individual basis, I thought Kolo Toure was excellent again. I said it in the previous Round Table and i'll say it again, I love the way that he attacks the ball - in either penalty area. He seems to have a real point to prove on the back of his time at Manchester City and if the opening two fixtures are anything to go by, we're about to become the beneficiaries of that. He looks like becoming arguably the signing of the summer (so far), especially when you factor in the pivotal impact the attributes he offers are having on the overall system. Notably, his mobility and athleticism in allowing the high line that Rodgers advocates to be effectively deployed, and the knock-on effect can be seen in the far more effective and efficient 'six second press' when we lose the ball and far more compact unit as a whole. Not only that, but he seems to offer the leadership and vocal presence that was missing from the side prior to Carragher’s reintroduction in the second half of last season.

The other player looking likely to push him in the 'signing of the summer' stakes (at this early juncture, at least) is Simon Mignolet. Again he showed the agility and - more importantly - concentration, to brilliantly tip a well struck Benteke volley around his left hand post, just as it seemed he was poised to save Villa what was probably a deserved point. If you hold any relevance to the saying that a top 'keeper 'is worth ten points a season', then that's arguably four on the board for the Belgian already, with only two games played. Despite the obvious positives that he has brought to the team, there remains some question marks though, in both his distribution and presence on set pieces. Both are elements that can be worked on at Melwood and you would expect to see these sides of his game develop in time, in line with Rodgers ideals and expectations. He seems every bit a goalkeeper first, and a footballer second. Pepe Reina, arguably, was the reverse. Mignolet, if nothing else is shining a light on Pepe's strengths, as well as his weaknesses, both of which we arguably failed to fully appreciate.

Overall it was a pleasing performance from both players and management, which has led to a maximum return from the opening two league fixtures for the first time in five seasons. Sterner tests will undoubtedly come, but the signs are certainly positive. That’s ten league games undefeated now, going back to the 16th of March at St.Marys. The seeds of momentum, it seems, have been planted for the first time under Rodgers tenure. Hopefully we can continue to cultivate them over the coming weeks, both on and off the field.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #105 on: August 29, 2013, 11:06:06 pm »
What? How do you figure that?

That seems to be saying that if they play the ball first, it isn't careless, and therefore not a free kick. No, wait, that's exactly what it's saying.

I'm not saying that just because Prof says it it's right (sorry Prof, you're not the gospel just yet!), but I can't see how he's disagreeing with me? Willing to admit I'm wrong if I've misunderstood something, though...

Again, it's not me that's misinterpreting the rules.

You need to interpret what classifies as 'reckless', and 'careless'. I agree in general with Prof's interpretation. Just because the above clause (which is obviously only a small excerpt from the rule book) doesn't mention whether or not the player wins the ball, you must know that this is a huge part of whether or not a free kick is paid from actually watching the game for I assume a number of years, surely?

If you make a tackle (assuming it's not reckless or with intent to injure) and you win the ball and then the player trips over you/the ball, it is not a free kick. If you don't win the ball and instead take the player, it is a free kick. That's the simplest way to describe it in layman's terms, and that is how the rule is applied (and has been for as long as I've known). I honestly don't understand this intentional attempt by people to misunderstand the rules, and try and rephrase things from the rule book out of context.

Obviously it's not to say that winning the ball means it's never a free kick. You can be reckless and endanger a players safety even when winning the ball, as we know (i.e. two-footed tackles, tackles from behind, etc), but a goalkeeper running out and finger-tipping the ball off a strikers boot hardly falls into this category.
It was in line because prof only offered an interpretation of the rules, not a rule itself. And the rule he was doing it for is exactly what nelly quoted.

If you read my last paragraph you'd see I was just pointing out the difference between what the rule is and how the refs interpret them. It seems you are on the same page now though, so all good in the end.

I will say though that just because refs have interpreted it a certain way for so long, doesn't make them right. Much like the avoiding contact example we talked about earlier.
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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2013, 12:08:48 am »
It was in line because prof only offered an interpretation of the rules, not a rule itself. And the rule he was doing it for is exactly what nelly quoted.

If you read my last paragraph you'd see I was just pointing out the difference between what the rule is and how the refs interpret them. It seems you are on the same page now though, so all good in the end.

I will say though that just because refs have interpreted it a certain way for so long, doesn't make them right. Much like the avoiding contact example we talked about earlier.

nelly?
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2013, 01:27:35 am »
nelly?
Haha, I'm sorry. I'm typing on my phone and it must have autocorrected :p
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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2013, 01:42:15 am »
Haha, I'm sorry. I'm typing on my phone and it must have autocorrected :p

No worries Flake.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Round Table Aston Villa 0 - Liverpool 1
« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2013, 04:12:36 am »
No worries Flake.
I deserved that  ;D
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