Author Topic: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.  (Read 21543 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« on: November 4, 2014, 09:36:55 pm »
In some ways its like going to the docs expecting to be told you've got rabies but he tells you don't worry its only pneumonia. Still ill and still depressing but a lot less than you'd imagined.

What to make of Brendan's team selection eh?

What were the positives?

And the negatives?

For me, there was a zip and a naivety that seemed to say, we'll have a go. But actually we lacked class and finesse in the final third and that's what cost us. For me its about movement in front of the ball and either the rest of the team have forgotten how to do it because they left it to Luis and Sturridge, or we're too scared. Get that danger back and we'll be a lot better.

Borini and Can started well and with pace but both looked knackered well before they were subbed. Toure and Skrtel settled into the game very quickly and in some respects looked more solid, more traditional than Skrtel does with Lovren. We need to trust players to run into the spaces behind the ball and pass, perhaps more long ball, it works for Madrid, its not just Stoke so why not.

Finally for me it made perfect sense to play the team he did, and its not a case of what if, but bollocks.

Not great, another loss, hardly any attempts on goal, but at least its not rabies.
« Last Edit: November 4, 2014, 09:41:30 pm by Hinesy »
Yep.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #1 on: November 4, 2014, 10:20:52 pm »
That's a good Madrid side, though. And as Ancelotti likes to say, they are in a good moment so I'm more encouraged by that display from us. We looked compact, organised, bullish. But you're right, the final third is still a problem for us. Markovic did well in many ways but when he's got a defender in front of him, his inclination is to turn back and look for help. Lallana has more composure but needs a pal and while Borini is waspish and valuable, he isn't that dominant as a centre forward. Maybe Balotelli might have done a job. Lambert would have been an interesting choice, Varane would have anyone for pace so we may as well have had a static target man.

But the rest of the team, from the keeper onwards were very good. Ok, Madrid hit the bar and had several shots saved but they were largely down Mignolet's throat. Touré was honestly very good, including a memorable turn on Benzema early on and some forays upfield. Did I mention Madrid are very good? Letting in one against Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale, Hamez, Kroos et all is very respectable.

All of which leads me to conclude that our weakened team put in a very good performance against possibly the best team in the world. Would our full strength team have done better?

Offline ashleyrose-66

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #2 on: November 5, 2014, 11:00:48 am »
Our "full strength" team conceded 3 a fortnight ago, so I think that argument is pretty redundant!

Last night we saw the sort of pressing and commitment that has been lacking recently.  Yes we were up against a superb Real Madrid side, who created a number of chances - Just as they have in every game they have played in the past couple of months - and we rode our luck a bit.  But every single player put in a shift.  There were no passengers in the side and the team played for each other.

It was a far cry from the abject performance the "first team" put in at St. James's Park on Saturday.

Mignolet looked assured, he made some great saves, came and caught a few crosses and punched some away also.  There were a couple that he could have caught, but he had a very good game last night.

Manquillo is raw and his defensive game is better than his offensive game.  Last night would have been a tough night for him as he constantly had Marcelo overlapping and so had to rely on Markovic to help him out on occasions, which he did.  Sadly the cross for the goal came from his side, but as I said, he was always going to have his hands full last night.

Kolo was superb for the most part.  Maybe I am being a bit harsh, but had he held his line, Benzema would have been offside and the goal would not have stood.  That said, he played with the commitment and leadership we have been missing defensively this season.  He put everything on the line for the team and had his best game in a Liverpool shirt.

Skrtel looked comfortable and made a couple of timely interceptions, though he was booked for a late tackle just outside the box.  You'll accept those though and take your chances rather than allow the likes of Ronaldo and Rodriguez to get in to the box.

Moreno also had a good game.  Better offensively than Manquillo, but maybe his defensive game suffers a bit for it.  Made some really good tackles though, and was up and down the left hand side all night.  A couple of long range efforts were worth a go too.  He reminds me of Riise!

Lucas was superb.  Snapping in to tackles, keeping possession with tidy passes and generally marshalled the midfield well. 

Emre Can was also solid and worked his socks off.  He was strong in the middle of the park, won his tackles and kept possession well. 

Allen worked hard made a couple of very good interceptions but was unable to influence the game at the other end.  He was the player that supposed to break forward in to the Madrid box but was restricted in doing so because he had to do so much work alongside Lucas and Can.

Markovic tracked back and tried his best to provide Manquillo with the support he needed to combat the overlapping runs of Marcelo.  He was an outlet at times and made one burst in the second half that brought a foul and booking for Rodriguez.  There were a couple of occasions where he had the ball and we wanted to see him run at the Real defence, but he seemed to look to pass inside instead of going for it.

Lallana worked tirelessly, pressed hard and showed some nice touches.  Got a couple of shots away which didn't trouble Real Madrid.  He wasn't able to link up with Borini as much as he would have wanted as he was pushed back a bit, but he had a good game.

Borini worked extremely hard.  He didn't give up trying, despite being isolated.  He may not be the best striker, but you cannot fault his work rate and commitment.  The Real Madrid defence didn't have time to settle on the ball, and he kept them on their toes.  He got tired towards the end, but his commitment cannot be questioned.

The stark difference between last night and Newcastle was the desire and effort the team seemed to make.  It really was lacking on Saturday, against a Newcastle side that was marginally better than us, and that isn't saying much.

Real Madrid came in to the game in terrific form.  They have been destroying sides for fun, and Ronaldo had scored in 12 games in-a-row.  But last night the desire was there to give them a tough game.  To make them work hard and if we can, hit them with a sucker-punch.

Sadly, we were probably a bit short in the final third in terms of quality, but it wasn't for the want of trying.

I don't get all the negativity towards Rodgers by the press this morning.  He didn't belittle to competition or raise the white flag.  If he'd picked the players he dropped, he'd have done so on reputation and name alone because the majority had done nothing more than those who were selected to warrant a start.

I hope that is the kick up the arse those players needed - I hope they will train ahead of Chelsea thinking that they are not guaranteed a game for Liverpool just because my name is Gerrard, Balotelli, Sterling, Lovren etc and Rodgers wouldn't dare drop me for such an important game.

The fact we lost 1-0 and questions are being asked "what if" shows you how well the players that did play performed last night. 
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 11:02:56 am by ashleyrose-66 »

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #3 on: November 5, 2014, 01:27:17 pm »
Who cares why Rodgers selected that particular line-up. Who cares that we had so few attempts on goal. Fact was for arguably the only time since White Hart Lane we actually looked and played like a proper team, like a Liverpool side from goalie right through to outside left for the entire 90+ minutes and despite the defeat I derived a huge amount of pride and joy watching us perform like a Liverpool side.

As for individual performances, Lucas was not just our best player but the best player on the pitch along with the young Madrid defender who is actually Jocky Hansen in disguise. Special mention, too, for Kolo Toure and Mignolet and also Markovic who finally showed us he might well have something in his locker.

But to be fair they were all terrific. Every last one of them.

Terrific stuff.

Chelsea haven't got a prayer on Satdee.

Terrific.

 :)


Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #4 on: November 5, 2014, 02:06:11 pm »
Lots of things annoyed me about the game last night.

- I wasn't thrilled with the team selection, I thought it would lead to a thumping to be honest. However, that was based on the newness and inexperience of some of the players, not on some bizarre interpretation of first and second teams.
- I wasn't thrilled that the team lost. I wasn't surprised either, this is the best team in the world on their home patch. That means the Bayern Munich/Chelsea/Arsenal/Barcelona/Whoever can all expecting a  routine humping.
- There was aspects of the performance that also unthrilled me. Manquillo for example, looking up, seeing the higher risk cross on and going backwards instead (he does that far too often, but you hope he will learn). Overall, the tentative nature of some of the attacks. Allen being underwhelming and not looking up to see players in space in his advanced role (he's not an AM). Lallana being a bit headless.

Ah fuck it, lets be honest, this was a damn fine performance in so many respects; the midfield for the second or third time this season functioned as a midfield should (I'm gonna nail my colours to the mast here - we are a better team without Gerrard), they closed, they pressed, they broke when they could, they were solid and played tidy stuff. Against one of the best teams in the world, it was good to see. The backline was the best we have seen all year. Toure might be slow, fat and prone to horrors, but his heart and organisation are the best we currently have. The fullbacks defended. Fullstop. Up front Borini ran himself into the ground. In fact the team only looked truly dysfunctional when the so-called first-teamers arrived (is it time to put Sterling on the bench and stop playing him in every bloody match and instead slowly work him into the side?) Gerrard started pointless long diagonals that had me gritting my teeth. It was like a small vision of the weekend only without Lovren and Johnson failing to defend as a unit.

But all of these are small potatoes, grist to the mill of the average pub debate; we all know if the team click a little better then the weaknesses of Gerrard for example (can't run) will quickly become background to his strengths (clever switches in play, accurate long passes). And, I think, the team with a bit of tinkering a dose of confidence can improve (probably not to the levels of last year though). The furore over their performances this year so far are much exaggerated by fan and media alike. Its upsetting and depressing at times, but far from some unstoppable slide into obscurity.

No, what has really got my dander up, has stoked my fires of fury, has been the post match response to the game from fans and media alike. First to the fans;

I can understand pessimism pre-match. A run of poor form, a tough match, a questionable team line-up. This accounts for so many predicting a beating. I predicted a beating. I have no problems with this. However, once the game is over and the team have performed well, then for fucksake give them credit. Put up your hand and say "I got it wrong". I got it wrong. I got it totally wrong. I foresaw a bunch of inexperienced individuals getting surgically taken apart. Instead I saw a disciplined team performance full of bite and hunger. Bite. Above all bite. I criticised Lallana above for being a bit headless. However, his attitude was fantastic. Against Newcaslte, Liverpool were bullied. So its very heartening to see Borini leaving a bit on Ramos, Marcelos and Varanne, seeing Lallana, Can and Lucas take turns to kcik the shit out of James. Last time out we were too respectful. It was refreshing to see a side decide that they were nobodies bitches. Sure, they lost, but they left blood on the floor, theirs and Reals. I want to see more of that. Returning to the point though, fans who refuse to acknowledge they were wrong and refuse to give credit where its due, instead criticising the team for not swaggering to victory -  you know its avoidance techniques right? You were probably impressed by the performance, can't admit you were wrong and are looking for other reasons to criticise the side, right? Admit it, Markavic bursting through the middle on a 30 yard run was great, right? Toure diddling players on the wing was terrific, yeah? Moreno kicking Bale upside was wonderful, more power to his cynicism. Bit of love for the team.

My volcanic rage is reserved for the media though. c*nts. c*nts to a man. I'll say no more. Total c*nts. Ok, just a little bit. Two-faced, me, me, me, jobsworth, will-that-do-mister-ITV? scapegoating, truck-reversing, beep, beep, beep, me, me, me c*nts. Totally. On Saturday I had to listen to Savage picking on Balotelli. It was disgusting. Last night Steve macca, amidst an audition for Doctor Who, changed tune so quickly and so incoherently I figured it was a Nickie Manaj album I had accidentally put on. They are gonna get a pasting, he reckoned beforehand. They should have got something out of that game, he decided afterwards. Make up your fucking mind, are they dross or so good they should have beaten the best team in the world? As for Scholes, I have no idea what he was there for, he looked like he wanted a piss for most of the post-match coverage. Fuck off to MacDonalds for a happy meal, doss c*nt.

It's the papers though, gobshites. Liverpool should have put out their strongest team and taken their pasting like men, cos that's what genuine European giants do. WHAT THE GENUINE FUCK? How quickly they forget. Remember Benitez rolling out four fullbacks and aiming for a 0-0? Where is this great, cavalier European past they are referring to? Liverpool's most recent European success, two CL finals, winning one, was built on the back of some of the worst European away games ever devised by man or beast. Benitez used to take pride in awful away displays. Houllier took pride in awful home and away displays. That is our European pedigree for the last two decades, the occasional belter not withstanding.

Last time out Liverpool were too naive, this time out too cynical. Apparently Liverpool disrespected the European Champions by not putting out 'the strongest team' (???no idea either), tearing up the pitch like school girls chasing a balloon and then allowing Real to demonstrate their superiority by tearing them apart on the counter. Well, as soon as Real stop getting bucket loads of money from the state and dodgy TV deals and still go massively in to fucking debt, as soon as the playing field is level and that much fairer, then perhaps Liverpool will think of going mano o mano. Until then, we will use whatever means is at our disposal to defeat you.

In sum, fuck off moaners, fuck off media, fuck off Mourinhio (the fella who wrote the book on bus parking and cynical team selections sneering at Liverpool for not putting out there best team... ha!)
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 02:14:54 pm by DonkeyWan »
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #5 on: November 5, 2014, 02:11:07 pm »
Whilst it is disappointing that we should make so many changes ahead of this game, with the principle that we go into every match believing we can win, especially when it is a big match you would have to say than Brendan got it mostly right last night. Think we could've done better in the last 15min to try and grab a goal but that was about it.

I do find some of the criticism from the media (including ex-players) galling though. That line-up cost about the same as the alternative line-up, the forward 3 cost over £56m! The senior players have failed in recent matches, why do they automatically deserve to start in a big game like this? Didi, why SHOULD Stevie start the match? If his level is going to be lower than that is no good to anybody.

If anything, Brendan has given a big boot up the backside to all the players - he is not afraid to drop/rest anyone and that players coming in can do a job.

The strategy that Brendan used will also help in the future - a typical away performance where we stay in the game as long as possible. Better form and a couple of better players (e.g. Sturridge) could so easily have got a result. It is also likely that Real were a little less focused because they saw a "weakened team" which actually gave us a better chance of doing well.

Unfortunately, this result, performance & team selection can only be truly judged after the next few weeks and after the 6th CL game. Start to look ourselves again, get better results in the league and qualify for the 2nd round and Brendan will be fully vindicated. Continue to struggle and the knives will be pushed deeper by all these fuckwits who should know better
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Offline muyuu

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #6 on: November 5, 2014, 02:15:31 pm »
I know it's Real Madrid and they're "in a good moment" whereas we are through a dip in form, but we hardly bothered them.

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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #7 on: November 5, 2014, 02:31:18 pm »
fuck off Mourinhio (the fella who wrote the book on bus parking and cynical team selections sneering at Liverpool for not putting out there best team... ha!)

Oh yeah, forgot about this - didn't he select a weakened team against us in April? Just because they got some luck and snatched victory doesn't make the approach any different. It was just a case than none of the Real defenders made mistakes like we did that day. Sorry, I forgot, Jose Mourinho is the biggest hypocritical c*nt in the world.

I know it's Real Madrid and they're "in a good moment" whereas we are through a dip in form, but we hardly bothered them.

We hardly bothered Newcastle or Hull, did you think that would magically change against a Real side bang in form?
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #8 on: November 5, 2014, 02:32:21 pm »
I know it's Real Madrid and they're "in a good moment" whereas we are through a dip in form, but we hardly bothered them.



Here's a stat for you.

Liverpool

Shots 6(3)

Guess the game.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 02:33:54 pm by Chakan »

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #9 on: November 5, 2014, 02:43:38 pm »
snip -

A real Liverpool post that DW - well in mate.

 ;D

Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #10 on: November 5, 2014, 03:15:44 pm »
Was it in Turkey?

Way more recent than that. Try last weekend sometime.

Offline Red Sea

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #11 on: November 5, 2014, 03:20:34 pm »
Defensivley we were fairly sound, at least compared to our previous showings, but when three holders are selected to choke the midfield - allen, can and lucas - I would expect some solidarity. To put it crudely and perhaps unfairly, our relatively half decent defensive performance was caused by the sheer numbers of players we had behind the ball, rather than a collection of masterful performaces, although toure pleasantly suprised me!
Of course, not every game is against Real Madrid, not every game will warrant a trio of holding players, the few times our back four were exposed they looked as timid as they often have, with skrtel at his panic inducing worst. In stark reality we easily could have let in 2-3 last night were it not for shoddy finishing and kolo's heroics!
It will be intriguing to see if the same team selected could be more potent offensivley while retaining defensive assurance.
Offensivley I was quite honestly disapponited, lesser teams with lesser players have pierced the Madrid backline, hoow many guilt edged chances did we conjour yesterday? None, in my eyes, Lallana's shot was more spontaneous brilliance rather than a well structured and practised move we mastered last season.
For those who were expecting a capitulation last night you will  be reasonably content with what unravelled but I do think it was an oppurtunity missed to an extent. Madrid were lethargic, casual and sloppy. A little more thrust upfield and imagination then I believe we could be talking about a scenario in which our offense and defense excelled.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #12 on: November 5, 2014, 03:22:16 pm »
It will be intriguing to see if the same team selected could be more potent offensivley while retaining defensive assurance.
Offensivley I was quite honestly disapponited, lesser teams with lesser players have pierced the Madrid backline, hoow many guilt edged chances did we conjour yesterday? None, in my eyes, Lallana's shot was more spontaneous brilliance rather than a well structured and practised move we mastered last season.
For those who were expecting a capitulation last night you will  be reasonably content with what unravelled but I do think it was an oppurtunity missed to an extent. Madrid were lethargic, casual and sloppy. A little more thrust upfield and imagination then I believe we could be talking about a scenario in which our offense and defense excelled.

And yet Barcelona had Messi, Neymar and Suarez and managed to put 1 past them.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #13 on: November 5, 2014, 03:23:29 pm »
I know nothing should surprise me, but anyone suggesting anything other than Rodgers was vindicated in his starting line up can get to fuck.

Not only was he vindicated in his selection, but hopefully he has done so not to rest players but to give others a chance and to give the seemingly unmotivated and disinterested (see Newcastle game in particular) a "kick up the arse".

It will be very interesting to see Saturday's line up on the back of last nights performance.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 03:29:00 pm by noname »
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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #14 on: November 5, 2014, 03:29:16 pm »
And yet Barcelona had Messi, Neymar and Suarez and managed to put 1 past them.
The worse barcelona team post Pep, yes the names are fancy but teams like Basle and the ludogerets more than troubled them! Last night madrid were very open at the back, much unlike their showing against barca when it was 'sit deep and counter'. They are far from defensive giants and we certainly are capable of causing them plenty of trouble.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #15 on: November 5, 2014, 03:34:16 pm »
The worse barcelona team post Pep, yes the names are fancy but teams like Basle and the ludogerets more than troubled them! Last night madrid were very open at the back, much unlike their showing against barca when it was 'sit deep and counter'. They are far from defensive giants and we certainly are capable of causing them plenty of trouble.
Well Ramos and Varane definitely are defensive giants and even SAS would found them challenging let alone Borini as a lone striker.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #16 on: November 5, 2014, 03:35:42 pm »
Toure ahead of Lovren for me, Lovrens been terrible since joining bar a few moments. Watching him at the World Cup I wasnt too confident he was what we needed but Carra & Neville on an out take from MNF gave me optimism to think otherwise but he has just not done it. Whether we keep playing him and Skrtl and hoping it blossoms at the expense of more horrible costly defensive mistakes is a question in itself?

Toure was immense last night as was Can and Moreno so all 3 need to start for me, Manquillo ahead of Johnson aswell.

The front 3 is anybodys guess.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #17 on: November 5, 2014, 03:38:54 pm »
Well Ramos and Varane definitely are defensive giants and even SAS would found them challenging let alone Borini as a lone striker.
what about the fullbacks? Marcelo is skilled but reckless, and Arbeloa is quite average, breaking down the flanks was our staple movement last season.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #18 on: November 5, 2014, 03:39:00 pm »
Here are some of my thoughts.

I fear Rodgers has created a rod for his own back.  Resting players and giving opportunities to fringe/young players is great but he has had various games since the start of the season to do so.  Sterling plays 120 minutes against Boro but is rested for Real away.  Gerrard plays 3 games in a week including Basel away but is rested for Real away.  I don't quite see the logic unless Rodgers has actually dropped a number of players because they are out of form.  That takes guts with senior players especially so he has my admiration if that's the case.  I fear it is not.

The team selection points to focussing on the league.  If the league form doesn't improve in the next 6 weeks or so you can expect Rodgers to feel the pressure with this game used as a stick to beat him with.  I don't know, it's either supreme confiden and brilliant forward planning or it's trying to be too clever by half.  We will see.

On the performance, I thought the lads out there played well.  It was a cohesive unit that worked the ball through midfield nicely a few times.  It's just a shame we were a bit of a blunt instrument at the end of it.  One of the things that made us great last season was when we got to the edge of the box we were dynamic and often overloaded the box.  Yesterday there was little chance of us doing so.

I'm not really feeling the 'should be proud to only lose 1-0, it could have been a battering' vibe.  What's that all about?  It kind of points to we are just happy to be here.  We didn't win 5 European Cups with that attitude. 

On a final note, I'd like to echo Corkboy's sentiment that this is an excellent Real side.  Front to back they are just very good.  They can hurt you in so many ways.  And probably have the best player in the world right now.  I think only Bayern will stop them from accumulating another 2/3 European Cups in the next 5/6 years.  People will probably look back and compare them to Milan in the 90's, the 1998-2002 Real side & Barcelona 2006-2011.  And of course Liverpool of the late 70's & 80's. 


Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #19 on: November 5, 2014, 03:39:56 pm »
what about the fullbacks? Marcelo is skilled but reckless, and Arbeloa is quite average, breaking down the flanks was our staple movement last season.

You what?

Marcello is probably one of the best fullbacks on the planet. Arbeloa is quite average?

Wow.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #20 on: November 5, 2014, 03:41:46 pm »
On the performance, I thought the lads out there played well.  It was a cohesive unit that worked the ball through midfield nicely a few times.  It's just a shame we were a bit of a blunt instrument at the end of it.  One of the things that made us great last season was when we got to the edge of the box we were dynamic and often overloaded the box.  Yesterday there was little chance of us doing so.

Sorry but that hasn't been an option all season, not just yesterday. No matter who we put upfront yesterday it was never going to be the case.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 03:43:17 pm by Chakan »

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #21 on: November 5, 2014, 03:42:42 pm »
You what?

Marcello is probably one of the best fullbacks on the planet. Arbeloa is quite average?

Wow.
Marcelo isn't even 1st choice with coentrao available mate. He is very skillfull and talented with the ball, maybe the most of any full back but he really lives up to the crude stereotype of attacking brasillan full backs. Only have to watch the 7-1 defeat from the germans to see that.
Arbeloa has been on the decline for some time and again, isn't first choice usually. As far as fullbacks go today, they're way above average but both have significant weaknesses

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #22 on: November 5, 2014, 03:44:03 pm »
You what?

Marcello is probably one of the best fullbacks on the planet. Arbeloa is quite average?

Wow.

I also find Marcello to be reckless and far from the best fullback on the planet, ok most of this for his poorer defensive work IMO. I guess wow again then!?

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #23 on: November 5, 2014, 03:48:20 pm »
And yet Barcelona had Messi, Neymar and Suarez and managed to put 1 past them.
One thing I noticed about Real last night, they are fantastic at closing space and denying the opposition room to play. We tend to think of them as these martians from outer space with mind-bending footballing skills (and they are indeed silky, yes) but what hurt Liverpool last night was two players occupying space between the backline and our midfield. When they closed down it took incredible skill to break out and they were so quick to get back into position. This is not some trolley dolly team of inter-galactico greats, they have a nucleus of hard-working, hard-tackling players (Varanne, Ramos, Arbeloa, Marcelos etc) supporting equally hard-working, attacking players. That is the influence of Ancelotti. It reminds me of what made Barcelona great, not the 5 million passes, or nimble, skill gnome opening up of sides... it was the high pressure and intelligent closing down as well as the graft to retrieve the ball that really, really hurt.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #24 on: November 5, 2014, 03:55:33 pm »
One thing I noticed about Real last night, they are fantastic at closing space and denying the opposition room to play. We tend to think of them as these martians from outer space with mind-bending footballing skills (and they are indeed silky, yes) but what hurt Liverpool last night was two players occupying space between the backline and our midfield. When they closed down it took incredible skill to break out and they were so quick to get back into position. This is not some trolley dolly team of inter-galactico greats, they have a nucleus of hard-working, hard-tackling players (Varanne, Ramos, Arbeloa, Marcelos etc) supporting equally hard-working, attacking players. That is the influence of Ancelotti. It reminds me of what made Barcelona great, not the 5 million passes, or nimble, skill gnome opening up of sides... it was the high pressure and intelligent closing down as well as the graft to retrieve the ball that really, really hurt.
good post mate, that synthesis of great talent and intelligent closing down was perfectly demonstrated by Isco, what a player he is! So skillfull and elusive. Very similar in style to Iniesta.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #25 on: November 5, 2014, 04:02:39 pm »
i really thought we were going to go for it in those final 10 mins,espec when gerard and couts and sterling came on.big problem though was stevies propensity for those long balls that just dont cut it any more,yes the odd one comes off but most dont,i cant for the life of me believe that brendan wants to see this ball played when we have no-one up top who can benefit from it.we had more of the ball in those final mins that with some crisp one-two passing could have got us into some promising positions but we just didnt keep it simple.overall great defensive display that on another nite couldve got us a pt or 3!!kolo has to start sat but i fear he will be  a spectator,he would marshall costa very well i feel but cant see it happening.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #26 on: November 5, 2014, 04:09:26 pm »
kolo has to start sat but i fear he will be  a spectator,he would marshall costa very well i feel but cant see it happening.

Probably been mentioned once or twice before, but IMO we will not really know if Brenden made the right team selection until we see the line up for Saturday's game. Was last nights team selection a safety net, a no lose option. Or was it as I hope a dropping of under performing footballers, a chance for others to play themselves into the team?
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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #27 on: November 5, 2014, 04:09:40 pm »
It was an odd game to watch. In a lot of ways it was encouraging, and I think it showed a bit of maturity to Rodgers' management. We can't always play gung-ho, high-pressing etc - it'd be interesting to see how we approach games like Arsenal, Chelsea, City away in future aswell.

A lot of people have said it reminded them of a Benitez display in Europe - I'd go further and say it was close to the way Houllier used to line us up for the big away games back in the day. Can and Lucas holding, holding, holding, Joe Allen doing the Danny Murphy "attacking midfielder who doesn't really attack" and then Borini doing the good old fashioned "defensive striker" role of a Heskey. It was odd to watch, especially under Rodgers, who usually makes the Roy Evans' Spice Boy team look more cautious than Jose Mourinho playing chess against a grand master.

In some ways it's a sign of how far we've fallen this season from last, or maybe how unrealistically high our expectations were.

It's also an interesting debate to see how many players were 'rested' and how many were dropped/rotated. For me, the only players who didn't make the XI who would be guaranteed a spot on form at the moment were Henderson and Sterling. It's hard to make a solid argument for Johnson and Lovren ahead of Manquillo/Toure/anyone at the moment.

I think it's safe to assume we're NOT winning the Champions League this season (you could argue we could win the Europa, but let's beat Basle and Ludogrets so we don't have that as a 'consolation' aim).

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #28 on: November 5, 2014, 04:16:29 pm »
Three things about playing at the Bernabeu in the Champions League:

1.  Rodgers has wanted more depth in his side (Long term club development)
            A.  Road tactics in the Champions League suited the players he chose (Decisions to make)
                       a. Trying to nick a point off the best team in the world in their backyard
                       b. Energy levels and bravery in the attack were clearly absent for much of the Newcastle tussle (opportunity cost)
                       c. Competition for spots is on-going as he has to evaluate players in games in lieu of practice time constraints

2.   One of the biggest criticisms LFC were facing coming into this game was a loose defensive unit
           A.  Problems with our defending shape, back four combinations and willingness to work together to defend in the LFC way
           B.  Opportunities to build confidence --- we tend to thrive in the underdog role and what better opportunity than Real at home
           C.  Lineup (other than a few cock-ups from Skrtel, Lucas, and Manquillo) was pretty solid (set plays, clearing lines, preventing shots)

3.   Re-charging player batteries, allowing for new faces to take responsibility, and coming together as a team
           A.  Pundits forget that many of those rested have already lost more games this season than all of last year (losing can be habit)
                    a. See the Newcastle game --- going through the motions and little passion
           B.  Lallana, Lucas, Kolo showed their quality (providing opportunities for players to keep them involved, especially loyal/talents)
           C.  Knock-on effect vs Chelsea: something to build off of and the unpredictability of Rodgers' lineup (allows for surprise match-ups)
           D.  Each player is evaluated on their own merits (this was not a systematic decision for all starters).

We gained some benefits from our depth tonight.  Our defense was much better against a powerful attacking side.  And we stopped a series of performances (for whatever reason) that were not how we want to play.  Sometimes a loss like this can change the trajectory of a season, reminding everyone all is not lost....

*** For me, this does not beg the questions of why did Rodgers do this.  Instead, it is why has he not done this sooner?  And in the spirit of this thread, I am sure he has a very good reason for his methods..

Get in against the plastics, as revenge is best served cold!

« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 04:20:21 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #29 on: November 5, 2014, 04:28:53 pm »
Nothing to add to DW's excellent post.

(Well done; I didn't respond to any of your pre-match posts, because they were so out-of-character in their negativity and though I disagreed with them, your usual positivity and balance meant I didn't want to challenge them).
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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #30 on: November 5, 2014, 04:32:45 pm »
I liked the sense of how we had adapted for this game. We were very disciplined and set up deliberately to defend the threats posed by Madrid. It was like a mission, with specific objectives in our play and setup. I think we are guilty sometimes in other matches of just being too arrogant, playing the same hand week in and week out without much consideration. It is like we are saying "This is how we play. You know how we play, but what are you going to do about it?". It worked last season - a lot of teams knew what was coming, but we could just steamroller them anyway - there was no handling us. For whatever reason, that doesn't work anymore this season. We're not good enough to impose whatever we want on the game, so it was nice yesterday that we seemed to recognise the (albeit obvious) unique threats of Madrid and changed our game plan accordingly, and hopefully we see signs of tweaking our game here and there each week to outdo the tactics of lesser teams in the Premier League.

In the game itself, I think Borini versus that Real back four was a mismatch and he was often isolated up there when Markovic, Moreno or whoever, didn't burst forward with the ball. His holdup play was very good though to his credit. Borini and Allen/Can in the team gave us extra workrate, which we would not get from Balotelli or Gerrard. I am not sold on Borini's technical ability. Ideally, you'd want a Mario Balotelli with a Fabio Borini work ethic to be playing, but alas, you can't just combine qualities like that.

We still have a good chance to qualify and this game was really encouraging from the players. Maybe only the second satisfying performance of the season.
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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #31 on: November 5, 2014, 04:46:12 pm »
Nothing to add to DW's excellent post.

(Well done; I didn't respond to any of your pre-match posts, because they were so out-of-character in their negativity and though I disagreed with them, your usual positivity and balance meant I didn't want to challenge them).

Yeah, I got it wrong, badly, and freely admit that. But I gotta own up to that. I was pretty pleased with the display, but even more happy the new guys were so strong on the night, Can looks a player, a real pillar of strength.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline decosabute

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #32 on: November 5, 2014, 04:47:42 pm »
Lots of things annoyed me about the game last night.

- I wasn't thrilled with the team selection, I thought it would lead to a thumping to be honest. However, that was based on the newness and inexperience of some of the players, not on some bizarre interpretation of first and second teams.
- I wasn't thrilled that the team lost. I wasn't surprised either, this is the best team in the world on their home patch. That means the Bayern Munich/Chelsea/Arsenal/Barcelona/Whoever can all expecting a  routine humping.
- There was aspects of the performance that also unthrilled me. Manquillo for example, looking up, seeing the higher risk cross on and going backwards instead (he does that far too often, but you hope he will learn). Overall, the tentative nature of some of the attacks. Allen being underwhelming and not looking up to see players in space in his advanced role (he's not an AM). Lallana being a bit headless.

Ah fuck it, lets be honest, this was a damn fine performance in so many respects; the midfield for the second or third time this season functioned as a midfield should (I'm gonna nail my colours to the mast here - we are a better team without Gerrard), they closed, they pressed, they broke when they could, they were solid and played tidy stuff. Against one of the best teams in the world, it was good to see. The backline was the best we have seen all year. Toure might be slow, fat and prone to horrors, but his heart and organisation are the best we currently have. The fullbacks defended. Fullstop. Up front Borini ran himself into the ground. In fact the team only looked truly dysfunctional when the so-called first-teamers arrived (is it time to put Sterling on the bench and stop playing him in every bloody match and instead slowly work him into the side?) Gerrard started pointless long diagonals that had me gritting my teeth. It was like a small vision of the weekend only without Lovren and Johnson failing to defend as a unit.

But all of these are small potatoes, grist to the mill of the average pub debate; we all know if the team click a little better then the weaknesses of Gerrard for example (can't run) will quickly become background to his strengths (clever switches in play, accurate long passes). And, I think, the team with a bit of tinkering a dose of confidence can improve (probably not to the levels of last year though). The furore over their performances this year so far are much exaggerated by fan and media alike. Its upsetting and depressing at times, but far from some unstoppable slide into obscurity.

No, what has really got my dander up, has stoked my fires of fury, has been the post match response to the game from fans and media alike. First to the fans;

I can understand pessimism pre-match. A run of poor form, a tough match, a questionable team line-up. This accounts for so many predicting a beating. I predicted a beating. I have no problems with this. However, once the game is over and the team have performed well, then for fucksake give them credit. Put up your hand and say "I got it wrong". I got it wrong. I got it totally wrong. I foresaw a bunch of inexperienced individuals getting surgically taken apart. Instead I saw a disciplined team performance full of bite and hunger. Bite. Above all bite. I criticised Lallana above for being a bit headless. However, his attitude was fantastic. Against Newcaslte, Liverpool were bullied. So its very heartening to see Borini leaving a bit on Ramos, Marcelos and Varanne, seeing Lallana, Can and Lucas take turns to kcik the shit out of James. Last time out we were too respectful. It was refreshing to see a side decide that they were nobodies bitches. Sure, they lost, but they left blood on the floor, theirs and Reals. I want to see more of that. Returning to the point though, fans who refuse to acknowledge they were wrong and refuse to give credit where its due, instead criticising the team for not swaggering to victory -  you know its avoidance techniques right? You were probably impressed by the performance, can't admit you were wrong and are looking for other reasons to criticise the side, right? Admit it, Markavic bursting through the middle on a 30 yard run was great, right? Toure diddling players on the wing was terrific, yeah? Moreno kicking Bale upside was wonderful, more power to his cynicism. Bit of love for the team.

My volcanic rage is reserved for the media though. c*nts. c*nts to a man. I'll say no more. Total c*nts. Ok, just a little bit. Two-faced, me, me, me, jobsworth, will-that-do-mister-ITV? scapegoating, truck-reversing, beep, beep, beep, me, me, me c*nts. Totally. On Saturday I had to listen to Savage picking on Balotelli. It was disgusting. Last night Steve macca, amidst an audition for Doctor Who, changed tune so quickly and so incoherently I figured it was a Nickie Manaj album I had accidentally put on. They are gonna get a pasting, he reckoned beforehand. They should have got something out of that game, he decided afterwards. Make up your fucking mind, are they dross or so good they should have beaten the best team in the world? As for Scholes, I have no idea what he was there for, he looked like he wanted a piss for most of the post-match coverage. Fuck off to MacDonalds for a happy meal, doss c*nt.

It's the papers though, gobshites. Liverpool should have put out their strongest team and taken their pasting like men, cos that's what genuine European giants do. WHAT THE GENUINE FUCK? How quickly they forget. Remember Benitez rolling out four fullbacks and aiming for a 0-0? Where is this great, cavalier European past they are referring to? Liverpool's most recent European success, two CL finals, winning one, was built on the back of some of the worst European away games ever devised by man or beast. Benitez used to take pride in awful away displays. Houllier took pride in awful home and away displays. That is our European pedigree for the last two decades, the occasional belter not withstanding.

Last time out Liverpool were too naive, this time out too cynical. Apparently Liverpool disrespected the European Champions by not putting out 'the strongest team' (???no idea either), tearing up the pitch like school girls chasing a balloon and then allowing Real to demonstrate their superiority by tearing them apart on the counter. Well, as soon as Real stop getting bucket loads of money from the state and dodgy TV deals and still go massively in to fucking debt, as soon as the playing field is level and that much fairer, then perhaps Liverpool will think of going mano o mano. Until then, we will use whatever means is at our disposal to defeat you.

In sum, fuck off moaners, fuck off media, fuck off Mourinhio (the fella who wrote the book on bus parking and cynical team selections sneering at Liverpool for not putting out there best team... ha!)

I normally hate posts that just say, 'this', but I really don't think I could possibly add much that you haven't said sir. Agree with absolutely every word. Brilliant, brilliant post.

I thought that but for the obvious shortcomings up front, we were excellent and played for each other for the first time in months. Who'd've thought it - we have to play the reserves to look like a real fucking TEAM.

I just hope to god Brendan actually looks at that and rewards those who played out of their skin last night. Lucas especially (but also Kolo and Borini) should be firmly back in first team plans after both last night and the game v Swansea. After that game, Brendan commended several of the players' performances, but sure enough they were dropped again for Newcastle. This time, don't just pay lip service to picking the team on merit, do it.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 04:56:14 pm by decosabute »

Offline ANFIELDGATES

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #33 on: November 5, 2014, 04:47:42 pm »
Probably been mentioned once or twice before, but IMO we will not really know if Brenden made the right team selection until we see the line up for Saturday's game. Was last nights team selection a safety net, a no lose option. Or was it as I hope a dropping of under performing footballers, a chance for others to play themselves into the team?
well sat will tell a lot,for me kolo,manquilo,morena and lucas played well enough to get a start but maybe not...tough call against the best team in prem atm.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #34 on: November 5, 2014, 04:49:25 pm »
Yeah I liked Donkey's post too. So much so I got myself a new sig (I even corrected his spelling mistake ;) )!

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #35 on: November 5, 2014, 04:52:43 pm »
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #36 on: November 5, 2014, 04:56:21 pm »
The midfield played as a unit beautifully. Quick incisive passing something that's been missing this season. That changed with twenty minutes to go and long diagonal balls were default.

Many positives in the performance. Moreno and Toure were brilliant as were Can and Lucas. No real threat in attack but that was to be expected. Plenty to build upon if these players are picked.

Skrtel is a nervous wreck with the ball at his feet.

Need to build upon this.

Think Rodgers missed a trick not bring Gerrard on in an advanced role near the end.
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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #37 on: November 5, 2014, 05:10:53 pm »
Platini on Rodgers' team selection "“First of all he has to explain to his fans why he put this team — not to me, not to you."

http://www.talkingbaws.com/2014/11/05/michel-platini-asks-brendan-rodgers-to-explain-his-liverpool-team-selection-against-real-madrid/?

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #38 on: November 5, 2014, 05:19:28 pm »
Yeah, I got it wrong, badly, and freely admit that.
Takes a big man to do that, nice one! And as others have said, excellent post up there ^

I loved the game last night. It was the first time apart from the Spurs game that it seemed like it was actually us playing.

Offline Penfold78

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Re: Round Table Real Madrid 1-0 Liverpool CL Group Stage.
« Reply #39 on: November 5, 2014, 05:33:52 pm »
 When we get older, for many of us, there will be a stage in our lives when we won't be able to remember what we went upstairs for, or what we went out to the shops for and where we've put the car. For some of us, we'll get the stage where we won't even remember our sons and daughters when they come to look after us, or for a brief visit. We will be husks, and then we will be nothing more.  Last night proved that most of the media have already  slipped into this twilight. Journalists and pundits now live in a perpetual 'now' bubble about 67 seconds wide, and 140 characters long. Memory has at best been outsourced or at worst rendered obsolete. Had Chiles, Dixon, Towsnend, Scholes, bloody McNulty and even Macca seen Liverpool play this season? I mean these guys are paid, PAID, to know the game. We didn't field a B side. We fielded the team Rogers thought would have the best chance against Real Madrid and I beleive he was vindicated. Yes we lost, yes we could barely function in the final third, but the other two thirds were strong. Resilient, balanced, team-orientated, composed, committed and in keeping with the possession based approach, all the way from the back four to the front runner. And if memory serves you well (or if you are a journalist a google search of Liverpool post game reports since September) you will know that in previous games the words resilient, balanced, team-orientated, composed and committed did not apply. If memory serves you well (or if you are a journalist a google search of Premier League season 2010-11 and 2011-12) you will appreciate the lengths Liverpool have had to go to in order to restructure finances, restructure coaching staff and restructre the team. If memory serves you well (or if you are a journalist or pundit you can just fuck off at this point because this is way over 140 characters) you will know that Rogers came to LFC with a clear and compelling strategy, that he wisely decided to abandon it to get the best out of an outrageous peak in Suarez's performance and the best out of a legendary captain whose game is so very different to Rogers original intentions, and that he then returned to the strategy, regrouping with a fresh crop of young hopefuls bought over summer 2014 that will suit and buy into his philosophy.

In this context I fully support Rogers decisions and in this context I thought the performance was good. Not excellent. Not memorable in terms of play but memorable as being the day Rogers said FU to a great deal of people inside and outside of the club. What ever happens at Anfied on Saturday, Rogers has my trust. He is doing things the long way round and I appreciate that. We are all living with a dichotomy. Last season's brilliance was actually a year wasted in the Roger's vision. While we finished tentalisingly close to winning the league, it was an unsustainable 38-game sprint with about 20 or so players. The dichotomy is this: we have to go backwards a year to regroup around the original strategy while the expectations of the fan base have been raised beyond belief. Last night might be the start of the resolution.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2014, 08:10:59 pm by Penfold78 »