Topic: Negativity on RAWK

[robgomm]

There's obviously room for criticism and reason for frustration. But there is no need for wholesale writing offs of the season, mindless rants and keyboard mashing. Sadly people use this ola e to vent their anger to an extent that I think a part of the board should be sectioned off for it.

[L666KOP]

The performance is secondary, but when it's becoming the norm the keep playing so bad I can't see beyond it!

Of course I was happy we won, but surely The elephant in the room, or on the pitch in this case, was were still playing poor, very poor!

Woo hoo.... we won by playing terrible... Great teams do that we are always told - this is true!

But make no mistake, we will lose more than we win by playing as bad as we did yesterday! The point is that performace isn't a one off, it's October and we have played well for 90 minutes once... ONCE! And also in patches in isolated matches too to be fair!

Half empty or half full ? Today is a half empty day!

We will you're right. But we aren't doing it by design are we ?

Great teams can win ugly. But the do it because of off days, still being able to win when they just don't 'click'. Great teams are just that, great teams. Stoke will never win the league because they aren't great. They don't aspire to be for a multitude of reasons.

We try to play the right way, it doesn't always come off, but at least we're on the right road, and we have to take any win that's on offer until we start to click.

[ArchieC]

If there's heavy negativity on Rawk then I know other social media outlets are 100 times worse.
The reason for all the negativity is that the expectations of this club are high and a lot of "fans" grew up in an era where Liverpool were dominant and so expect some sort of silverware every season.
Negativity is fine especially after a game like yesterday where it's warranted and even the players said we got out of jail.  They'll understand that frustration but most the time fans have to understand negativity wont get you anywhere.  I just don't like hearing about certain players being labelled as 'shit' because of not having a good game or anything like that.  They're not shit otherwise they wouldn't be playing for one of the most famous clubs in history.

[robgomm]

The performance is always secondary

Totally disagree. Results hide performances, good and bad. The bones of our 11 game winning run were in a year's worth of performances but people only basked in it when the results came. The result yesterday cannot hide the inadequacies in our current performances but it can attest to our spirit, renewed attacking quality and contains within it hope for the future.

[L666KOP]

Totally disagree. Results hide performances, good and bad. The bones of our 11 game winning run were in a year's worth of performances but people only basked in it when the results came. The result yesterday cannot hide the inadequacies in our current performances but it can attest to our spirit, renewed attacking quality and contains within it hope for the future.

Can't get my head around this mate. At all.

If your balls are full at the end of the night sometimes you have to take an ugly bird home to get the job done. You might not set out with that intention, but if it's the only way......

Football is results based. Always has been, it will never change.

The aim is ultimately to win whilst playing well, it's what we all want. But I'd rather win like yesterday than lose whilst playing well.
I'm not for one minute suggesting we aim to play crap football and scrape wins, but sometimes it just happens that way.
Top 4 is up for grabs, I'd rather be in it playing shit than not playing well.

If we start to play like Stoke, then win or lose I'll be disappointed. We know Brendan isn't like that though. He strives to win games by attacking the opposition, you could put him in charge of the Barcelona team from 3 years ago and not a lot would change. I f you put Shitcoat in charge he'd turn them into Chelsea.

We aren't playing poor football by design are we, we're playing poorly because we just aren't clicking as a team. There's lots to complain about. I know there is.

[cowtownred]

Can't get my head around this mate. At all.

You speak far too much sense mate.
Your last few posts are super. (Sounds wrong that..  I'm sure ALL your posts are!)

[robgomm]

It doesn't take much to get your head around it. Teams don't play badly and win for very long. They might not be exciting or fluid all the time but if they meet their performance objectives they will do better than if they don't (if those objectives are good).

Performances lead to results long term. Brendan's time here is a classic case of it.

[Lord Vader]

I've invested more time on here in the last few days than normal (mainly due to man-flu) and have been sponging up the debate for a change.

The issue is something i've seen across every forum i ever inhabited, forget positive or negative, this isn't the real issue, the problem, and if you read posts this way that don't involve you is pretty clear.

People are playing the man, not the post. They are attacking the poster not the content of it and this applies to both sides of the argument and both sides are as equally to blame.

One whopping comment is quoted numerous times by others (this makes forum ignore features pointless in my experience), comments of the positive angle are also re-quoted and done to attack the poster not the post.

In many ways it's the age old "leave the moderating to the moderators" scenario, just as i've noticed a score of posts where people are immediately into someone post history the moment a comment is made, when you go looking at something with suspicion, you'll always be suspicious no matter what they say.

When people undertake these actions they are only interested in the poster and getting ammo or one-up-manship on them.  The cycle then repeats and more and more people pile in either side.

Anyhow, work to do, utd fans in the office to smile at and say 3 points baby .........................................................

[L666KOP]

It doesn't take much to get your head around it. Teams don't play badly and win for very long. They might not be exciting or fluid all the time but if they meet their performance objectives they will do better than if they don't (if those objectives are good).

Performances lead to results long term. Brendan's time here is a classic case of it.

I've never said any different ?

Not once.

[youll never walk alone it]

Sometimes in footy you get turning points, games where you have played shite or even played shite over a period, suddenly a lucky win can get a team on a roll, beat hull next week and its 3 straight league wins, heres hoping anyways.

[robgomm]

I've never said any different ?

Not once.

Performances are always secondary, you said.

They aren't, they are primary. If results were primary some people would've had Rodgers out after 6 months.

[L666KOP]

Performances are always secondary, you said.

They aren't, they are primary. If results were primary some people would've had Rodgers out after 6 months.

The primary aim at three o clock on a Saturday is to win.

If we win playing well, brilliant, if we win like yesterday, job done.

We don't set out to play like yesterday, but sometimes it happens, too often this season, no complaints from me on that score.

But a win, is a win no matter how you get there, and as long as we're trying to play the right way I've few complaints.

[telekon]

It's garbage. The horde of people that come out after a bad game to vent their frustration is mainly posting garbage. The quality of it is garbage. When they're done venting they often go back and don't care. It's for the people who are on here a lot, the people who care about the writing and care about the site, who are here almost every day, it's for those that it's annoying garbage.

It's when you have builders/constructors around. They have a container in your yard and over night all the neighbors have thrown their trash in it. The neighbors don't give a fuck since they've disposed of their trash, it's up to you and the builders to make it decent again. Until the container is emptied and the thick neighbors are back to throw their trash in it.

[Broad Spectrum]

The issue is something i've seen across every forum i ever inhabited, forget positive or negative, this isn't the real issue, the problem, and if you read posts this way that don't involve you is pretty clear.

People are playing the man, not the post. They are attacking the poster not the content of it and this applies to both sides of the argument and both sides are as equally to blame.

One whopping comment is quoted numerous times by others (this makes forum ignore features pointless in my experience), comments of the positive angle are also re-quoted and done to attack the poster not the post.

Good comments. Thing you have to take into consideration though with a forum such as this is regular posters may be aware of opinions/agendas of other posters and will go out of their way to pull them up if they feel it's unwarranted.

Perhaps People do it for attention, although perhaps it's just human nature. Lost count how many times at the match fans around me will be very quick to moan if Balotelli misplaces a pass, Sterling loses the ball, the team recycle the ball by going backwards from a corner for example (pet hate of mine, moaning when your team retain possession of the ball never fails to make my blood boil) etc. Yet when Coutinho skips past a player or Lallana plays a lovely one-two, not a positive word from the moaners. Unfortunately, some people in this world just love a good moan!

[Fromola]

It doesn't take much to get your head around it. Teams don't play badly and win for very long. They might not be exciting or fluid all the time but if they meet their performance objectives they will do better than if they don't (if those objectives are good).

Performances lead to results long term. Brendan's time here is a classic case of it.

If you have an off day and win then you're made up and you can say it's a sign of a good team. Worry this season after yesterday is we've only played well once and the rest of the games have had quite a lot of poor performances and the defensive issues from last season are no better; and are more exacerbated by the loss of Suarez and injury to Sturridge leaving us with no reliable source of goals. These are genuine concerns as we won't get gifted own goals often.

We all hope it picks up.

[Maggie May]

You speak far too much sense mate.
Your last few posts are super. (Sounds wrong that..  I'm sure ALL your posts are!)

Sorry to introduce frivolity into a serious discussion.  But Cowtown dear I couldn't resist.  You do know you sounded like Father Ted in the Lovely Girls Competition.   

As for me.  A wins a win.  I don't much care how its done.  But you've got to stick by your team.  We are supporters.  That is what we do.  Support.  And if we played shite and got lucky, so what?  We came home with the three points.  I can't see any merit in playing beautiful football and being gallant losers.  We're nicely placed in the table and a euro night on Wednesday.  What's not to like? 

[Crosby Nick]

We all hope it picks up.

Which it will. In the meantime if we can pick up some wins when playing poorly then that's a bonus. We'd all agree that we've not played well on the whole this season but we're no worse off than our main rivals this season.

As it stands Chelsea are looking too strong for everyone (time for that to change I know) and City look the best of the rest. Everything else is up for grabs so these wins when playing poorly could turn out to be crucial for us.

[The 5th Benitle]

People are still not understanding the crux of the debate here. Just to be clear:


Nobody is saying that our weaknesses should be swept under the carpet


Criticism is fine, unless OTT


The point is, there are those who take no pleasure from a win. a WIN. That's hard to understand.


Interesting to note that RAWK is criticised on this thread for being too negative and too positive!

[L666KOP]

Which it will. In the meantime if we can pick up some wins when playing poorly then that's a bonus. We'd all agree that we've not played well on the whole this season but we're no worse off than our main rivals this season.

As it stands Chelsea are looking too strong for everyone (time for that to change I know) and City look the best of the rest. Everything else is up for grabs so these wins when playing poorly could turn out to be crucial for us.

Absolutely correct.

If you sat Brendan down and asked him if he'd rather win or play well on Wednesday he'd say both, of that I've no doubt. That's the kind of manager he is.
If you told him he could only have one or the other, he'd say win.

Different managers use different methods of trying to win, if their side wins, the performance is generally good, that's why they won.

Let's just be thankful that even after an abject display like yesterdays we were still 'celebrating' 3 points. We can ask questions, dissect the performance, criticise where justified. But never forget, we are trying for both result, and performance, always have.

[doughnutsandpiper]

Nobody is saying that our weaknesses should be swept under the carpet

that's exactly what you are saying.

There are players in the team who are clearly not performing and deserve criticism. Stop avoiding the real problems.

[keyo]

First of all I honestly don’t think any Liverpool fan wants us to do badly so they can either moan or say they were right.
There does seem to be two rather extreme groups one here though.  The everything fine and the everything’s shit and I think comments from one group promt reactions from the other group.

A day like yesterday if it happened last year would have been met mainly with glee. Hahaha we played terrible and won, hallmark of champions, we would have just basked in our good fortune of winning and a crazy end to a game. The problem this year is that the performance we put on yesterday was rather typical of how we’ve been playing,

As for the calls for Rogers to be sacked, or suggestions he might be, yeah fuck right off. 

I don’t think our Transfer window was successful and you can pretty much see that in the performances, but I’m not sure you can blame Rodgers.  We don’t pay top wages and foreigners don’t want to live in Liverpool.  He has to work with what he has. 

Actually I reckon this time last year that performance would have been met with a similar response. We started better last year, but only marginally performance wise. The performance at 8 games last year would have been received as confirmation that we were not capable of challenging seriously and that we were riding our luck.

We are bedding new players in, and lack the quality of sturridge and suarez we had last season. Rodgers showed last season that he was good at working out a way of making the most of the resources at his disposal going forward. He has not shown any capability with regard to improving our defensive solidity as yet. This season has many possibilities, and reasons to be positive and negative. Whilst posters may go over the top at times there is plenty of room for criticism and concern as well as optimism. But then football is a game of opinions for fans and will always be. Unfortunately some of us have bigger mouths (is it fingers now?!?)than others!!

[The 5th Benitle]

that's exactly what you are saying.

There are players in the team who are clearly not performing and deserve criticism. Stop avoiding the real problems.

It isn't, at all.

I noticed you didn't quote my next line, which was 'Criticism is fine, unless OTT'

Who are you to tell me what I'm saying anyway

[doughnutsandpiper]

Actually I reckon this time last year that performance would have been met with a similar response. We started better last year, but only marginally performance wise. The performance at 8 games last year would have been received as confirmation that we were not capable of challenging seriously and that we were riding our luck.

there were a few games at the start of last season where we looked shaky, but there is nothing I've seen so far this season to suggest we are even capable of challenging for the top four. I've got no confidence in the back four which resonates through the rest of the team.

[Broad Spectrum]

that's exactly what you are saying.

There are players in the team who are clearly not performing and deserve criticism. Stop avoiding the real problems.

"Balotelli is fucking shite. Can't believe we spent £16m on that useless pile of shit. He'll never make it here, needs to move on".

Or;

"Balotelli is just not working in our system currently with one up top. Again yesterday afternnon against QPR, he dropped deep far too often, and when he did have possession in and around the box, he chose to shoot every time, visibly frustrating Gerrard, Henderson etc. Not good enough from a £16m player, who already has experience playing in the Prem. However, I think when Sturridge comes back we'll see a a totally different Balotelli, as those two looked to link up very well in the Spurs match back in September."


Which one is more the constructive criticism, because both statements are criticising Balotelli? Which do you think the mods prefer?

[The 5th Benitle]

Which one is more the constructive criticism, because both statements are criticising Balotelli.

Thank you. Perfect illustration.

[Crosby Nick]

but there is nothing I've seen so far this season to suggest we are even capable of challenging for the top four.

Nothing? At all? Apart from the current table suggesting otherwise despite how we've played? Despite the fact that we did it comfortably last season (with Suarez and Sturridge I know)?

We may well have a serious fight on our hands and this year it looks like there's 7 or 8 teams capable of making top 4 but we're not really in any worse shape than Arsenal/Spurs/United/Everton etc at this time are we? We're not playing well but we can improve.

[doughnutsandpiper]

It isn't, at all.

I noticed you didn't quote my next line, which was 'Criticism is fine, unless OTT'

Who are you to tell me what I'm saying anyway

not only are you a hypocrite but an elitist to boot. You don't intimidate me at all, I'll say how I see it.

"Balotelli is fucking shite. Can't believe we spent £16m on that useless pile of shit. He'll never make it here, needs to move on".

Or;

"Balotelli is just not working in our system currently with one up top. Again yesterday afternnon against QPR, he dropped deep far too often, and when he did have possession in and around the box, he chose to shoot every time, visibly frustrating Gerrard, Henderson etc. Not good enough from a £16m player, who already has experience playing in the Prem. However, I think when Sturridge comes back we'll see a a totally different Balotelli, as those two looked to link up very well in the Spurs match back in September."


Which one is more the constructive criticism, because both statements are criticising Balotelli? Which do you think the mods prefer?

nothing wrong in showing some passion that comment was probably taken straight after the game and were my exact thoughts aswell.

[KForshaw]

This was a brilliant post. I was constantly abused on another forum for telling people to stop being so negative and overly aggressive towards the team they supposedly support and to have a little faith (and this was when it was about 0-0 if I remember), and just got sarcastic replies like "Faith in what?" or people telling me to fuck off.

Rightly so I rubbed it in when it came to 3-2 at the end (to which they probably abused the team a little more and slagged off the performance no doubt).

All I saw was constant abuse towards Balotelli by those behind their keyboards, whilst those in the away end at QPR sung his name after a missed shot.

I don't know about others but in my mind being a Liverpool fan is about SUPPORTING your team through thick and thin. Justified criticism is okay, but when it comes to abuse and aggression, thats where I draw the line between annoyance and stupidity.

[The 5th Benitle]

not only are you a hypocrite but an elitist to boot. You don't intimidate me at all, I'll say how I see it.

I'm sorry, I'm not with you. Not only do you feel the need that you can tell me what it is I'm saying, but now I'm trying to intimidate you? And elitism, errr...Bizarre. All I'm actually doing is pointing out that me posting that 'Criticism is fine, unless OTT' rather disproves your theory that we don't allow criticism. Which is why it was a bit offside that you selectively quoted my post.

I couldn't intimidate a kitten by the way.

[john_mac]

We are 5th I think, playing Real Madrid at home Wednesday night. anybody could tell you that we did not play well yesterday and have not done that well this season but you'd have tp be a clown to think we would lose the best player in the world and one we built the team around without any period of transition. If we can stay up there and keep on picking up points during that transition great, there is something positive in there. 

I don't even know how many players we brought in over the Summer but it was always going to be difficult, things will get better, you have to believe that otherwise what's the point.

It was never going to be easy replacing Moses.

[Red_Mist]

The point is, there are those who take no pleasure from a win. a WIN. That's hard to understand.

Is there really anybody like that? I agree with the rest of what you say there 5th, but comments like the one I've quoted are just wrong (surely?)

I took pleasure from the 3 points on the board. The way we got there gave me none at all, and a lot (including Rodgers and Gerrard in the post-match interviews) felt the same way.

Yesterday was a strange one, a one-off for me (I normally celebrate like a teenager) but it showed me that it IS possible not to feel jubilant after a win.

I'd normally agree with the result is more important than the performance argument. Yesterday, made me genuinely confused about what is going on with our defence, especially at set pieces. As robgomm explains, performances like that might result in one or two lucky wins, but it won't help us achieve anything this season. So yesterday, the result was great, but the poor performance WAS important, couldn't be ignored.

Yes, there's mitigating factors everywhere, and I agree, it's great to be winning when playing badly, 5th in the league etc. But the performances are beginning to be a problem. Not one that can't be solved, but a problem that can be discussed without being told to be happy. That's where the OP goes slightly off key in my opinion. He says we should just be happy with the win. "You support a team, it wins, you should be happy". It's not always that simple is all that the rest of us are saying.

If I was in the ground, I'd be nursing bruised shins and no voice....but I wasn't and I didn't feel that elation. It's great looking at the table today though!

Still, we'll batter Real...we're a bit strange like that.

[The 5th Benitle]

Is there really anybody like that?

Yes. It's why JerseyKopite posted this.

[john_mac]

Is there really anybody like that? I agree with the rest of what you say there 5th, but comments like the one I've quoted are just wrong (surely?)

In here? Definitely.

there are some would rather say "I told you so" than praise a player.

[Timbo's Goals]

There is, of course, the fact that Harry had virtually all his squad practising for an entire fortnight in readiness to attempt to blitz us but, that apart, I think one thing above all that can be concluded from what we saw yesterday was just how instrumental the extra quality on the ball of Sterling and Coutinho [and Sturridge when he's fit - and, of course, Luis last season] bring to the table for us.

Up until Coutinho came on QPR had pretty well bossed us all over the pitch individually and collectively except possibly for Sterling's individual sorties and the occasional flicker elsewhere. However, once Coutinho came on so we the had the two players with that extra zip and quality they began - in relative terms to what had preceded Coutinho's arrival on the pitch - to wither.

Imagine if we'd have had Sturridge and Suarez on as well, instead of, presumably Balotelli and Lallana. The game might have ended up with a scoreline of 2-7 in our favour. Perhaps 4-7 if they'd have converted a few more of their own chances. in other words pretty much as we'd have expected last season in our post Christmas flourish.

The point I'm clumsily trying to make is that I really didn't realise until it dawned on me when Coutinho came on and saw the dramatic impact his extra quality had on the game just how dynamic that 'quality' quartet were last seson and just how amazingly influential they were on the outcome of so much of our success.

Reflecting back now it sort of seems obvious in the light of what has just dawned on me. It's just I'd never realised just how massive that overall 'winning' impact of that quality quartet was.

The good news is that once Sturridge does come back we'll have three quarters of that quarttet and the extra quality of the 'threesome' will likely be enough to take us over the line against most opposition. We just have to get all the rest galvanized enough by the presence of the threesome to lift the overalll collective performance to a level where it can also match the top teams.

Anyroad, that's my comfort blanket for the time being.

  

[john_mac]

I took pleasure from the 3 points on the board. The way we got there gave me none at all, and a lot (including Rodgers and Gerrard in the post-match interviews) felt the same way.

I took a load of pleasure out of the end of the game, as much as I have any game this season, especially that beaut by the away fans with the sombrero and horn, knob. Big smile on my face even if you do recognise we never played well. There were games we never played well last season and there will be others this season.

[Melbred]

It should be dealt with pretty easily, instead of exacerbating a whopper comment, just report to a mod, instead of feeling enraged and taking it "personally" so to speak.

Not everyone feels the same way, that's human nature. If someone makes a stupid post, it's not that hard to ignore. They are a minority on here, the majority are level headed and and express their opinions without expletives.

[Red_Mist]

Yes. It's why JerseyKopite posted this.

Right, thanks for that!

IF there are people like that, then can't you just get rid?

[Red_Mist]

I took a load of pleasure out of the end of the game, as much as I have any game this season, especially that beaut by the away fans with the sombrero and horn, knob. Big smile on my face even if you do recognise we never played well. There were games we never played well last season and there will be others this season.

Aye John, which is why I said what I did about being there in the ground. No doubt about it, I'd have been the same.

[The 5th Benitle]

Right, thanks for that!

IF there are people like that, then can't you just get rid?

The worst of the comments yesterday was by a poster who now can't post for over a month.

Yes, we can, of course we can but there are many posters who don't cross the line as such but instead derail debate with their constant repetitive negativity.

[Mutton Geoff]

It comes down too perspection and levels.
 
if somebody posts OTT comments they want a reaction not a discussion and they get it, to explain this yesterday the poster Bostonscouse spent the first hour or so posting reactionary one liners either badly formatted or designed to get a response, when he got lots of responses some almost abusive, he started explaining what he meant in more detail, he then had a decent discussion rather than handbags.

Had he posted the better stuff first the other earlier handbags stuff would not have happened.

One last point too often straight after the game its the same names that pop with negative one liners, so maybe they need to chill for a while and then post, some of the stuff about Mario and other Liverpool players was a total myopic disgrace even though we won the game.