Author Topic: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool  (Read 10773 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2014, 09:22:52 am »
It was a bad performance. Without the win, we would have had lots of frustration and complaints. In truth, we were lucky to get the three points, perhaps lucky to get points at all. I thought we were poor overall. Our defence doesn't look confident at all. Every corner or freekick is a danger. We'll probably have more teams try the same things. Just lob it in, or lob the ball in, at the far post, head it back in and it's a threat. Up front, we're not much better. Balotelli looks like he's playing in a bubble. When he's at his best, he can look so cool and sharp. When he's having an off day, he can look like he's got his mind on something else. And that's the Balotelli we've seen so far. It could be a confidence thing, but it's gonna become a problem soon, if we don't get the impression he's working to address things. People can put up with poor form, but not so much with what appears to be missing desire to fix things. They had a short clip over here on tv about the team mates' reactions. Henderson had a go at him, but when Sterling passed it in and Balotelli didn't synch, everyone just turned away from him. No reaction. Then there was a short pass for Balotelli from Enrique(?) down the left, he didn't move towards the ball, lost it and made a gesture of complaint or something similar. Put together, Balotelli doesn't synch with the others, it's frustrating and we'll have to deal with it. It's not good.

That said, we found a way to win. We kept going until the final whistle. We'll need much more of that. Hopefully, this was the scrappy (undeserved) win we needed. Hopefully, we can use this as a reference for the future. That we need to keep trying and we can't take anything for granted. Nothing will come for free.

I'd be lying if I said I was confident about the Real Madrid game. It's a new game and maybe we'll have better focus. But a team that doesn't function, like ours at the moment, where Zamora is allowed to look class, we can be in for some serious trouble against top players like C. Ronaldo, Rodriguez etc. And that's on a normal day. Unless we improve, with some margin, from the recent games, we can be ripped to pieces on Wednesday. It's crucial for us to raise our performance levels pretty much immediately, to give us some breathing space. Or many, many questions will soon be asked. It's a real test of character, the next few games. We need to pass.

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Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2014, 09:39:37 am »
It's awkward in midfield because we try a lot of things but we need to know what works an what doesn't. Midfield 2 doesn't work. Gerrard advanced in midfield will only work off the bench unless it's a game we can really dominate. We're used to Henderson buzzing about being Gerrard's legs but he only works well in front of Gerrard. Behind or alongside him it doesn't work.

The only thing that's really worked is a midfield diamond with Henderson and Allen either side of Gerrard, or a midfield three with Gerrard or Lucas behind Henderson and Allen. Basically we need more of a midfield three, a midfield two just doesn't work with what we have. It seems to always take Rodgers half a season to figure this out. It was the same last season where we plodded along with the Gerrard/Lucas midfield until Gerrard got injured.

It's a mystery how we got 2nd with such an inflexible bunch.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2014, 10:41:24 am »
Something I’d like to see us do, which I don’t think we are doing too well at the moment is manage the game.  For example, QPR started the game well, pressed & used the direct ball to create chances.  In short they were causing us problems and maybe we were not going to play our way out of this situation.  After the first 5-10 minutes I’d like to have seen us drop a midfielder in front of Zamora & marginalise the use of the ball through midfield to avoid their press.  In effect, we could have let them run themselves into the ground without giving up too many chances.  But in reality we gave away 3 good chances in the first half and QPR should have been winning.

We didn’t make the change in midfield until the 2nd half when Gerrard shielded Zamora.  QPR subsequently ran out of steam and we could start playing.  But the change was late and arguably we could have been down by then. 

Our strategy seems to revolve around having the ball and battering teams.  That’s not always possible though.  It’s about what we do when we are faced with those inevitable situations where the opposition are playing well.

Offline Tobez

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2014, 11:17:55 am »
As I mentioned briefly in the post-match thread, I was going through a pretty brutal hangover whilst watching this game. What made it worse was how much the performance seemed to mirror my progress through it. I'll elaborate.

When the game started, I was listless and weak, like a kitten with a pounding headache. As the first half wore on, try as I might, I couldn't summon up the enthusiasm needed to cheer the team on; like me, they seemed a little bewildered as to where the blitzkrieg tactics from last year had gone, where the spark was, and why such an awful QPR team had actually decided to show up. That said, towards the end of the first half there were a few signs of life from both of us, a glimmer of the old magic as Gerrard and Balotelli linked up nicely and I managed to achieve a vertical position for the first time in about 6 hours.

Fortified by a Brendan Rodgers team talk and a sandwich respectively, the team and I got off to a much better start in the second half. Sure, there were a few wobbles, but the half-time restoratives were having their effect. Balotelli's miss was the equivalent of an ill-advised packet of crisps; a bad idea at the time, but evidence that things were getting better overall. The first goal came at the perfect time, as pressure was beginning to tell. A stroke of luck, for sure, but one earned by some quick thinking whilst the opponent was taking a nap. Likewise, I used a brief lull in my symptoms to sneak in a cup of tea which helped no end. But then as the match wore on and the nervousness in our defence became ever more apparent, the horrors finally arrived. That awful moment in a hangover where you decide to go over every decision you've ever made, leaving you curled up in a ball and powerless to do anything. The back four (I'll give Mignolet some slack here as he pulled out some very important saves) seemed to be going through a similar existensial crisis and when the breakthrough for QPR finally came it was a moment of stunned acceptance that things aren't quite how they used to be.

Of course, hangovers can produce stupid thoughts like that. Coutinho's goal was a welcome reminder that there is still a huge amount of quality in this side. So much so that even after the second QPR equaliser, hope was advancing even as the awful physical effects were receding. Even a blow like a second goal or an unexpected attack of nausea was not enough to dampen the belief that at the end of a storm is a golden sky - a fact proven seconds later by the sweet silver song of Coutinho's through ball. People will try and tell you that we were lucky today, or that you shouldn't drink so much. They're right, of course - but sometimes you create your own luck, and sometimes the night before is worth it (I appreciate I'm losing control of the hangover metaphor now, but I've come this far). Improvement is needed, definitely. Will it happen - of course. I was up bright and early on Monday, and Liverpool will be in the mix for the top 4 this season. Just like any morning after, things are a little rough right now; but you know that things will get better and when the party of last season calls, we will go again.

Online Dougle

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2014, 12:03:56 pm »
Well some great posts there. For me it was  a typical Suarez-Sturridgeless performance. We don't have the pace and precision that we had/will have. My point - query is what do we do with teams .... Burnley, Leicester, Stoke, West Ham, QPR,  Villa etc etc who are all going to employ the same blueprint against us?  Physically dominate, outmuscle, pressurise, box-in. Use the high ball- knock down technique. Psychologically intimidate with every corner, free-kick and throw in. Seriously folks we are looking at "Stoke" x 13 this season. They all reckon they have a shout in the game and why is it that so many have their best games against us, Villa, West Ham, QPR ? We are predictable, mentally and psychologically we have glaring weaknesses, it is the same script over and over again.

Isolating out back 4, particularly if they are dropping deep is a disaster waiting to happen. The first thing is to stay compact, the second thing is to stay higher if possible. We need bodies around the centre halves, as they are at the moment. That is what happened for most of the second half and we were comfortable as far as I could see.
The other thing I would imagine would help would be to move the ball to space, this means sometimes going back to Migs but the important thing is to move it quickly, to break the stranglehold and to have options I.e players willing to receive and play the ball. There was one example in the second half where we were litera.ly playing on the goaline but we got out of it, then of course Migs just lumped the ball to a QPR player. More potential heart attacks for us. How else do we slide out of the pressure teams will put on us ? Lumping it forward did not work and won't work as an only option.

We have strengths as well and I think we'll play better against better footballing teams but that's not the QPR x 13 conundrum.

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2014, 12:12:36 pm »
I totally agree. I think it's because Lucas wanted to leave in summer at all costs and probably still wants to in winter
Where did you get that from mate?
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Offline Aristotle

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2014, 01:59:22 pm »
You can read as much as you want into this game but I don't think you'll ever find a conclusion that will be replicable outside this game. The time spread was what did it in the end. Coutinho's pass to Sterling and QPR's equaliser if they'd come in the 24th minute and then 70th then we'd not really be bothering with them as it's just one piece of brilliance vs. same mistake we've made since the day Sami Hyypia was allowed to leave the club - and bar a few good performances from Kyrgiakos.

What I'll raise however is the lack of "Holy fuckballs!" that followed the final whistle. How many times have we seen the polar opposite at every level? The miss in front of goal (Austin). The 2x strikes against crossbar (from Fer) and then a blatant two-footed tackle not being punished (Johnson against Sandro). We've played the game QPR did so many times only to get undone by something as equally hairpulling as two own goals and a miscommunication when attacking a set piece.

The defending is a moot point really. It was shit. Rodgers said so. Gerrard said so. Lovren said so (and do fuck off picking off his comments about it ending 3-3 as if you didn't think the exact thing!). Real Madrid won't play that many long balls. They'll be more compact. We'll not play with Jose Enrique against Real Madrid. We won't play with a barely fit Emre Can. We'll almost certainly play with Gerrard deeper. Nothing will be the same from this game, even if you fully expect it. This game was as big a one off as you can find. Just like a team starting De Gea, Smalling, Evra, Jones, Evans, Anderson, Nani, Young, Cleverly, Rooney, Welbeck never scored 8 goals in a game again. And much like Southampton are unlikely to ever play better than they did against Sunderland, even if they improve the total number of players in their team. Sometimes you just have to hold your hand up and say you got lucky and be happy about it.

We'll not face a better team than Real again this season until we meet Bayern in the semi-finals. We know how fucking good they are and we'll need every piece of luck falling with us if we want to get a result. This game was a horseshoe made from a leprechaun's gold, found under a rainbow in a field of 4 leaf clovers.

Sometimes it's just a bit fun to be lucky as fuck and get a confidence boost going into the biggest game in eons. Sometimes it's all you need.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2014, 02:43:51 pm »
Where did you get that from mate?

Napoli for regular football? And the club respecting his wish?
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2014, 03:06:39 pm »
Napoli for regular football? And the club respecting his wish?
I know there was talk of Napoli taking him on loan but nothing concrete?
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Online JackWard33

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2014, 03:23:41 pm »
3 points...

1) We couldn't play through them pressing and harrying us in the first half. We should be good enough to and we weren't
This was mainly due to our full backs and DM struggling on the ball and the midfield set up being either wrong or unfamiliar depending on your perspective.
We couldn't play out, couldn't control the midfield and ended up losing the ball or being far too direct and lumping it

2) Our fullbacks put in horrific displays.
I've seen Johnson praised by some - I thought he had a terrible game defensively. He allowed their fella to walk through him in the first half resulting in one on one (admittedly after a Skrtel air kick) and was at fault for both goals. For the first he allowed his man to chest control the ball after a straight 40 yard free kick we were set up for. Seriously why is he backing off there? It's bizarre. For the second in the build up he plays a 'defensive' header limply to the feet of one of their players resulting in a preventable corner.
He just seems unwilling or unable to do a basic defensive job. He almost never closes down, never compete aerially and either doesn't concentrate or doesn't care. Manquillo is in a different world to him defensively at the moment
Maybe Johnson got some praise because he was better than Enrique. He either had a 58% or 54% pass completion rate for the game depending on which source you use - its hard to communicate how bad that is. It should be impossible for a defender to have a pass completion rate that low - just shockingly bad. And of course his defensive performance has been done to death. The second goal is just unreal; first of all he totally sells himself and then having made the error, instead of being desperate to make up for it, he allows his man to run off him and score. It's among the worst full back performances I've seen for our club

3) Gerrard shouldn't start as a number 10 again. It's disappointing that 15 good minutes against a tired WBA who were chasing the game has influenced the manager heavily enough to start him there. It's especially odd as if anything we're overloaded in that position (Lallana, Coutinho, Sterling) and sadly any of these would be more effective than 2014 Gerrard. Sadly he just doesn't have the mobility or quickness to be effective and certainly he can't play the position well enough to justify being picked ahead of the other players we have that can play there


I'm saddened so many people have latched on to Balotelli as the problem (not that he played well but he didn't play anywhere nearly as badly as the prevailing narrative); our problems in midfield and defence were a million times greater
Hopefully it's a wakeup call - I desperately hope we get back to playing the midfield 3 that nearly won us a title (Allen-Henderson-Gerrard as dm) and that Johnson and Enrique aren't picked unless we don't have another full back who can stand upright.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2014, 03:44:01 pm »
I'm saddened so many people have latched on to Balotelli as the problem (not that he played well but he didn't play anywhere nearly as badly as the prevailing narrative); our problems in midfield and defence were a million times greater

Seems to have been lost that Balo could easily have had a hattrick in this game.

The one he blazed over the bar was clearly a terrible terrible miss, but he got himself in the position where the ball fell to him. That finish was an anomoly.

Then there was the two OG's.

Had Dunne not put the ball in to his own net, then Balotelli would have. He might have been slow on the up take (looking away whilst the kick was taken) but by the time the ball was in his vacinity, had it got as far as him he was ready to tap it in.

Same with the Caulker OG. Mario was right where he should have been to benefit from that move.

This isnt to say that it was an incredible performance from him, but I'll be more than happy for him to take up such positions consistently going forward from here. Because those were exactly where a striker should have been.

Offline RedDevo

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2014, 03:45:39 pm »
I sense we only won the game because QPR got carried away. Pressing for an equaliser, when they scored they went for the three points in the closing stages. Ludogorets did the same thing.

A school boy error against Liverpool – stretching the game gives us the space to attack your back four and we will destroy you. Playing open is suicide against Liverpool even without Suarez and Sturridge.

But it is clear, teams have worked us out, whether it be Chelsea or QPR they essentially have the same game plan.

We like to build from the back – so teams press us aggressively. We don’t have players who can play around the press (Joe Allen accepted) so we get forced backwards and play it long or worse panic. Against physical sides like West Ham we simply cannot cope.

We use Gerrard’s range of passing to set the tempo and start attacks – so teams man-mark Gerrard. The ball resides for long periods in the possession of Lovren or Skrtel who have time and space but they are reluctant or incapable of using the time and space afforded them to do anything progressive.

Our main weapon is pace – so teams drop deep if we have possession of the ball and let us dominate. With no space to use our pace, we play patient and the game slows down. Countinho is left trying to thread eye of the needle passes, Sterling ends up playing with his back to goal, we try speculative long range shots, or most depressingly end up pumping hopeful crosses towards the penalty box. This is where we miss Suarez most.

We lament the park the bus tactic but that is no longer an apt description. It is no longer the last act of the desperate manager with an out-classed team. It now appears to be a pretty effective and viable platform from which to try and beat us.

Obviously, if we were a more solid defensive unit teams would have to take more risks to break us down but currently a few long punts up field laced with and handful of set pieces is all it takes.

Here’s hoping Madrid do a Spurs.

Offline PhilV

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2014, 03:54:13 pm »
Seems to have been lost that Balo could easily have had a hattrick in this game.

The one he blazed over the bar was clearly a terrible terrible miss, but he got himself in the position where the ball fell to him. That finish was an anomoly.

Then there was the two OG's.

Had Dunne not put the ball in to his own net, then Balotelli would have. He might have been slow on the up take (looking away whilst the kick was taken) but by the time the ball was in his vacinity, had it got as far as him he was ready to tap it in.

Same with the Caulker OG. Mario was right where he should have been to benefit from that move.

This isn't to say that it was an incredible performance from him, but I'll be more than happy for him to take up such positions consistently going forward from here. Because those were exactly where a striker should have been.

That is what I also took from the game, he got in good positions, he does lurk a lot but when he comes alive he does "explode" pretty quickly.

His miss was very poor but I think the bounce was awkward from him and it was a bad miss in the end.

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2014, 04:10:45 pm »
Think you guys are being kind to Balotelli.  I have time for the lad and he is clearly talented but the miss was no surprise.  He spent the game making bad choices or switching off when he should be looking to gain a yard.  I'm thinking of the Sterling cross and the moment before Dunne puts it into his own goal.  Even at 2-2 he missed a great chance because he chose to flick the ball (wide) instead of finishing with precision/power.  It's ok and even admirable not to take life so seriously but fuck me put that ball in the net & then we can all go about care free. 

Having said that, it is encouraging that he is getting into those positions.  But it was probably the first time I found myself frustrated with him.  He should have scored at least 1 goal.  If not 2 or 3.

Offline wordroam

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2014, 04:13:38 pm »
I sense we only won the game because QPR got carried away. Pressing for an equaliser, when they scored they went for the three points in the closing stages. Ludogorets did the same thing.

A school boy error against Liverpool – stretching the game gives us the space to attack your back four and we will destroy you. Playing open is suicide against Liverpool even without Suarez and Sturridge.

But it is clear, teams have worked us out, whether it be Chelsea or QPR they essentially have the same game plan.

We like to build from the back – so teams press us aggressively. We don’t have players who can play around the press (Joe Allen accepted) so we get forced backwards and play it long or worse panic. Against physical sides like West Ham we simply cannot cope.

We use Gerrard’s range of passing to set the tempo and start attacks – so teams man-mark Gerrard. The ball resides for long periods in the possession of Lovren or Skrtel who have time and space but they are reluctant or incapable of using the time and space afforded them to do anything progressive.

Our main weapon is pace – so teams drop deep if we have possession of the ball and let us dominate. With no space to use our pace, we play patient and the game slows down. Countinho is left trying to thread eye of the needle passes, Sterling ends up playing with his back to goal, we try speculative long range shots, or most depressingly end up pumping hopeful crosses towards the penalty box. This is where we miss Suarez most.

We lament the park the bus tactic but that is no longer an apt description. It is no longer the last act of the desperate manager with an out-classed team. It now appears to be a pretty effective and viable platform from which to try and beat us.

Obviously, if we were a more solid defensive unit teams would have to take more risks to break us down but currently a few long punts up field laced with and handful of set pieces is all it takes.

Here’s hoping Madrid do a Spurs.

I sort of agree but from a glass half full point of view.

Teams were hammering us at the 'pass the ball out of the back' thing right from the start when BR took over. When we're on form, it seems to me that teams start with this and gradually give up.

Gerard thing is interesting as Lovren seemed to be doing a fair few good long passes at the beginning of the season: again if the whole  back four + Gerrard is on form then aggressively man-marking and pressing high up the pitch becomes a risky tactic contradicting the 'parking the bus'.

Parking the bus and then speculatively lobbing balls in really is the last resort - the fact its worked is more to do with us than the opposition.

In short I don't think there is a silver bullet to deal with an 'on form' Liverpool - and in theory with more choice for the 1st 11 even less so this season - it just seems that way when we're not quite gelling: breaking without killer instinct and not quite able to thread balls blind into space for telepathic team mates to run into. Or the confidence/communication nervousness surrounding Mignolet and Lovren.






Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2014, 04:23:17 pm »
Round Table,

Apologies for posting this in two different threads, but I was wanting to create this post for the Round Table after my few hours of post-victory moaning on Sunday, and was asked on another thread to do a post-partum.   If this becomes an issue, I have no problem in deleting one of them, just ask.

Anyway here is my pre-game QPR summary and post-game brief analysis.

QPR Pre-Game Main Points (see GregChurra's How do we get the most out of the players that are available? thread)

1.  Accept Frustration & Respond Resiliently
          A. Attack (cycling of forward play/decision-making in final third/how to stretch the defense)
          B. Middle of Park (More pressing as a result of not dominating the ball, can lead to fouls/injuries/bad habits like diving in)
          C. Identity (roles/continuity/responding to danger ----> Pressure, Cover and Balance issues lead to disorganization/errors)

2.  The Importance of Set Plays in LFC's Results
         
3.  Solving the Over-dependence upon a few
 

Post Game QPR Re-Assessment   
Main Points from QPR Game

1.  Pressing Liverpool's Backs (cut off supply to SG; created knock downs, a direct game - main beneficiary Fer)

2.  Mario Balotelli's Problems & the rest of the LFC Attack (beyond not on the same page; different libraries)
            A. Decision-making in the final third (combination play, vision, and mobility in small spaces)
            B. Holding up the ball in the middle third (keeping it, allowing our midfield to avoid getting pinned in)
            C. Checking into space and making himself available at or near the box (make the CB's make decisions)
            D. Finishing & Selfishness

3.  Mignolet has some work to do - "Should I stay or should go" and Communication issues
            A.  Great shot stopping save on Sandro
            B.  Gets caught in No Man's Land & Punches Skrtel in the Head (his reading of the game needs to be faster/if he moving so slowly)

4.  Rodgers knows how to change games
            A.  Moved Gerrard back to normal position
            B.  Allen improved the game - we got closer to the opposition/better at pressing/keeping the ball
            C.  Coutinho provided a jump (space on the left; composure - combination play got better - nice finish, even better pass to RS)

5.  The Good, The Bad & The Ugly: Set Plays were a huge factor
             A.  Raheem plays quickly, Glen makes the run (well out son!)
             B.  Both goals allowed came from restarts (1st goal evolved from one and 2nd goal directly from corner)
                           a) Issue #1: Poor clearances, technique, Poor Marking
                           b) Issue #2: Ball-Watching (Enrique dives in, Ball Watches & Fails to Cover Vargas)
                           c)  Issue #3: No Calming Influence (Austin almost gets one Skrtel/Migs, Allen on near post) - Need confidence
                           d) Issue #4 : Indecision is contagious

*** It must be noted that when we did defend the last restart, Lovren headed it up and out, Coutinho collected it and we were off to the races on the counter.  It was not like QPR were running much at at us, other than we were to static, unaware of runners, combined with shitty clearances and no one person to step up and say "Not Today Sunshine".  Very disappointed with our defensive restarts.

6.  QPR confirmed that Sterling is indispensable for Liverpool (all three goals) - like Henderson the weeks before.

What we have learned and how to get the most out of our players

1. Our left side (not including Moreno) is vulnerable.  Enrique is not good enough yet, and Lovren is trying to do too much.  This leaves both Skrtel and Mignolet in the uncomfortable positions of having to read when to step and when to go.  Their natures are mostly to stay unless they really have to go.  This is not a great triangular partnership yet.

2. Liverpool FC need more repetition in some fundamental organizational and defensive patterns of play.  Too many awkward, half clearances leading to recycled service, too many episodes of leaving the back door open with ball watching, not following runners, and timid indecision about who is going to pressure, who is going to provide cover and who is going to balance the defense.  They need a set play practice game where there is no running, but the entire practice probes these problems.  With repetition comes confidence and a calmness.  This would be good for Migs too

3.  Using attacking pattern play, find more ways to put Coutinho in space.  This should be a tactical imperative.  Combine Mario in this session, where all Balo needs to do is read Coutinho, the playmaker.  This will guide his movement.  Stop the play, makes changes.  Start the play, ask him where his next move is.  Foster and partnership between the two
 
4.  Incentivize overcoming frustration, in practice.  Reward players and nurture more resilience.  It is a living, breathing entity with the team and make everyone apart of its upkeep.  There is more frustration just around the corner. 

YNWA
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 01:51:16 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2014, 04:29:00 pm »
Think you guys are being kind to Balotelli.  I have time for the lad and he is clearly talented but the miss was no surprise.  He spent the game making bad choices or switching off when he should be looking to gain a yard.  I'm thinking of the Sterling cross and the moment before Dunne puts it into his own goal.  Even at 2-2 he missed a great chance because he chose to flick the ball (wide) instead of finishing with precision/power.  It's ok and even admirable not to take life so seriously but fuck me put that ball in the net & then we can all go about care free. 

Having said that, it is encouraging that he is getting into those positions.  But it was probably the first time I found myself frustrated with him.  He should have scored at least 1 goal.  If not 2 or 3.

Him looking away for the Dunne own goal is, in the end, a pointless moment.

He might have switched off, but by the time he needed to he'd certainly re-engaged himself with the game and got in to the position he should have taken up.

That he was looking away (for a bit) didnt affect his ability to do what he should have done, cos he still did it regardless.

The flick you refer to was perhaps a strange choice on the face of it, it had a bit of the Robbie Keane to it.

That said, and im prepping for you to just come back with me being kind to him again, iirc Balotelli was in line with or even beyond the front post when he did it?

Meaning he had very little, if nothing, to aim at.

You can almost justify the flick from that point of view, its one of the few ways to divert it towards the goal.

I thought it was just pure madness at the time, pure Balotelli, but honestly I just think he believed it was the best/easiest way to get it on target.

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2014, 05:04:08 pm »
Hopefully it's a wakeup call - I desperately hope we get back to playing the midfield 3 that nearly won us a title (Allen-Henderson-Gerrard as dm) and that Johnson and Enrique aren't picked unless we don't have another full back who can stand upright.
I just done a quick check, so I might have got it wrong but the Allen Gerrard Henderson midfield combination won us 7 games last season.
Gerrard Henderson Coutinho also won us 7 games
Gerrard Henderson Lucas won 8 games
Lucas Allen Henderson won 2 games.
Allen Leiva won 1.
Gerrard Henderson won 1.
(This does not take into account substitutions)
 :)
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Offline RedDevo

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2014, 05:35:39 pm »
I sort of agree but from a glass half full point of view.

Teams were hammering us at the 'pass the ball out of the back' thing right from the start when BR took over. When we're on form, it seems to me that teams start with this and gradually give up.

Gerard thing is interesting as Lovren seemed to be doing a fair few good long passes at the beginning of the season: again if the whole  back four + Gerrard is on form then aggressively man-marking and pressing high up the pitch becomes a risky tactic contradicting the 'parking the bus'.

Parking the bus and then speculatively lobbing balls in really is the last resort - the fact its worked is more to do with us than the opposition.

In short I don't think there is a silver bullet to deal with an 'on form' Liverpool - and in theory with more choice for the 1st 11 even less so this season - it just seems that way when we're not quite gelling: breaking without killer instinct and not quite able to thread balls blind into space for telepathic team mates to run into. Or the confidence/communication nervousness surrounding Mignolet and Lovren.


Last season teams cottoned on pretty quickly to our ‘play it out from the back’ approach and we reacted by mixing up our tactics often playing it longer and missing out the midfield.

But crucially I didn’t see them targeting Gerrard in the way we have seen this season (Villa last year being one possible exception). If we could work the ball to Gerrard he could with one 40 yard ball put the opposition on the back foot.

Combined with the pace of Sturridge and non-stop movement of Suarez we could turn defence into attack in the blink of an eye. This made pressing us a risky activity.

If you press us and stop us playing out from the back you stop our plan A. If you stop Gerrard getting his head up and force him to play short and square you stop our plan B.
 
I’m not going to get into the Balotelli debate but having a fit and on form Sturridge will make a big difference psychologically as much as tactically. I do expect Brendan to find a way eventually and I expect us to improve as the season goes on but currently we look like a team that has run out of ideas and is rapidly running out of confidence.

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2014, 05:39:23 pm »
As I mentioned briefly in the post-match thread, I was going through a pretty brutal hangover whilst watching this game. What made it worse was how much the performance seemed to mirror my progress through it. I'll elaborate.

When the game started, I was listless and weak, like a kitten with a pounding headache. As the first half wore on, try as I might, I couldn't summon up the enthusiasm needed to cheer the team on; like me, they seemed a little bewildered as to where the blitzkrieg tactics from last year had gone, where the spark was, and why such an awful QPR team had actually decided to show up. That said, towards the end of the first half there were a few signs of life from both of us, a glimmer of the old magic as Gerrard and Balotelli linked up nicely and I managed to achieve a vertical position for the first time in about 6 hours.

Fortified by a Brendan Rodgers team talk and a sandwich respectively, the team and I got off to a much better start in the second half. Sure, there were a few wobbles, but the half-time restoratives were having their effect. Balotelli's miss was the equivalent of an ill-advised packet of crisps; a bad idea at the time, but evidence that things were getting better overall. The first goal came at the perfect time, as pressure was beginning to tell. A stroke of luck, for sure, but one earned by some quick thinking whilst the opponent was taking a nap. Likewise, I used a brief lull in my symptoms to sneak in a cup of tea which helped no end. But then as the match wore on and the nervousness in our defence became ever more apparent, the horrors finally arrived. That awful moment in a hangover where you decide to go over every decision you've ever made, leaving you curled up in a ball and powerless to do anything. The back four (I'll give Mignolet some slack here as he pulled out some very important saves) seemed to be going through a similar existensial crisis and when the breakthrough for QPR finally came it was a moment of stunned acceptance that things aren't quite how they used to be.

Of course, hangovers can produce stupid thoughts like that. Coutinho's goal was a welcome reminder that there is still a huge amount of quality in this side. So much so that even after the second QPR equaliser, hope was advancing even as the awful physical effects were receding. Even a blow like a second goal or an unexpected attack of nausea was not enough to dampen the belief that at the end of a storm is a golden sky - a fact proven seconds later by the sweet silver song of Coutinho's through ball. People will try and tell you that we were lucky today, or that you shouldn't drink so much. They're right, of course - but sometimes you create your own luck, and sometimes the night before is worth it (I appreciate I'm losing control of the hangover metaphor now, but I've come this far). Improvement is needed, definitely. Will it happen - of course. I was up bright and early on Monday, and Liverpool will be in the mix for the top 4 this season. Just like any morning after, things are a little rough right now; but you know that things will get better and when the party of last season calls, we will go again.

Fantastic post. Thanks.
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Offline houkura

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2014, 05:40:57 pm »
Him looking away for the Dunne own goal is, in the end, a pointless moment.

He might have switched off, but by the time he needed to he'd certainly re-engaged himself with the game and got in to the position he should have taken up.

That he was looking away (for a bit) didnt affect his ability to do what he should have done, cos he still did it regardless.

The flick you refer to was perhaps a strange choice on the face of it, it had a bit of the Robbie Keane to it.

That said, and im prepping for you to just come back with me being kind to him again, iirc Balotelli was in line with or even beyond the front post when he did it?

Meaning he had very little, if nothing, to aim at.

You can almost justify the flick from that point of view, its one of the few ways to divert it towards the goal.

I thought it was just pure madness at the time, pure Balotelli, but honestly I just think he believed it was the best/easiest way to get it on target.

I'm in agreement with this. Must mean we're "glass half full" types... Think the narrative of him being "disinterested" is steering some opinions. Of course he cares whether or not he scores. He wants it more than we want it from him I'm sure.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2014, 05:58:43 pm »
I know there was talk of Napoli taking him on loan but nothing concrete?

Yeah, but it was about HIS wish for regular football and for that he seriously considered a move, there were some quotes but I forgot, with Rodgers being pretty sensible when it comes to players not fully commited to the club. He benched Skrtel for that when he was thinking of moving on for City..
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 06:03:07 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2014, 06:10:50 pm »
Yeah, but it was about HIS wish for regular football and for that he seriously considered a move, there were some quotes but I forgot, with Rodgers being pretty sensible when it comes to players not fully commited to the club. He benched Skrtel for that when he was thinking of moving on for City..
Have you any links for all this as it is all news to me. The only thing I can recall seeing in the press was a Telegraph (?) snippet stating that we were not actively looking to sell him if he was happy to be a squad member. ???
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2014, 06:23:20 pm »
Have you any links for all this as it is all news to me. The only thing I can recall seeing in the press was a Telegraph (?) snippet stating that we were not actively looking to sell him if he was happy to be a squad member. ???

Nah, I have no links but if you look at the statements of Rodgers, and Lucas' first game of the season with him being not even on the bench the next week during the last days of the transfer window pretty much confirming this. I definitely remember there were some quotes from ITKs, reliable ones but for some reason a move for Lucas didn't work out.

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2014, 06:28:57 pm »
Nah, I have no links but if you look at the statements of Rodgers, and Lucas' first game of the season with him being not even on the bench the next week during the last days of the transfer window pretty much confirming this. I definitely remember there were some quotes from ITKs, reliable ones but for some reason a move for Lucas didn't work out.


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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2014, 06:56:59 pm »
Yeah, but it was about HIS wish for regular football and for that he seriously considered a move, there were some quotes but I forgot, with Rodgers being pretty sensible when it comes to players not fully committed to the club. He benched Skrtel for that when he was thinking of moving on for City..

As far as I am concerned, and with all possible respect that I can muster, I believe you are talking absolute nonsense.

You have not established not even a far-fetched, tenuous basis for your premise that it was LUCAS who wished to move away and get regular football. Therefore, the rest of your syllogism is "garbage in, garbage out" (a technical phrase).

The notion that Lucas is not being used (more) by BR because Lucas is "not fully committed to the club" is so far-fetched, so tenuous that it boggles the mind that you would put it forth as anything but an opportunity to have a laugh.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2014, 07:04:15 pm »
As far as I am concerned, and with all possible respect that I can muster, I believe you are talking absolute nonsense.

You have not established not even a far-fetched, tenuous basis for your premise that it was LUCAS who wished to move away and get regular football. Therefore, the rest of your syllogism is "garbage in, garbage out" (a technical phrase).

The notion that Lucas is not being used (more) by BR because Lucas is "not fully committed to the club" is so far-fetched, so tenuous that it boggles the mind that you would put it forth as anything but an opportunity to have a laugh.

Well, you're not the first getting a little bit too emotional in response to something I've posted. But in hindsight, I was right more often than not. It's not possible to post every detail of what's going on behind the scenes in this football business on a public forum, maybe you have to accept that.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2014, 07:43:57 pm »
Well, you're not the first getting a little bit too emotional in response to something I've posted. But in hindsight, I was right more often than not. It's not possible to post every detail of what's going on behind the scenes in this football business on a public forum, maybe you have to accept that.
Sorry mate, I am not sure I am following this.
Are you saying Lucas wanted to move (maybe on loan) but the club wouldn't allow it? ???
(PM me if you don't want to discuss it on the thread).
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2014, 08:23:30 pm »
Sorry mate, I am not sure I am following this.
Are you saying Lucas wanted to move (maybe on loan) but the club wouldn't allow it? ???
(PM me if you don't want to discuss it on the thread).

No, Lucas wouldn't, and still doesn't, get the game time as a regular with Gerrard in his position, for that the club would have respected his wish for a move..If you know how football works then most of the time players who want to move on won't be in the plans of a manager until something changes again, which could be the case with our current problems in holding midfield... that's pretty normal..But everything can be changing pretty quickly, you only have to look at how Skrtel made it back into Rodgers plans..
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 08:38:00 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Tobez

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2014, 11:09:23 pm »
Fantastic post. Thanks.

Cheers mate!

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2014, 04:34:15 am »
Cheers mate!

Yes nice one. I liked this:

People will try and tell you that we were lucky today, or that you shouldn't drink so much. They're right, of course ...

I was in a similar predicament on Sunday :D

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2014, 07:08:44 am »
The scary thing is I disagree that Qpr pressed us massively thus interrupting our passing. That of course is a standard tactic against us now but it was nowhere near the intensity of other teams pressing us eg villa. In fact I remember in the first half bring surprised we weren't pressed more.
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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2014, 08:33:37 am »
The scary thing is I disagree that Qpr pressed us massively thus interrupting our passing. That of course is a standard tactic against us now but it was nowhere near the intensity of other teams pressing us eg villa. In fact I remember in the first half bring surprised we weren't pressed more.

100% they did mate.
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Offline wordroam

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Re: Round Table: QPR 2 - 3 Liverpool
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2014, 03:10:12 pm »
Last season teams cottoned on pretty quickly to our ‘play it out from the back’ approach and we reacted by mixing up our tactics often playing it longer and missing out the midfield.

But crucially I didn’t see them targeting Gerrard in the way we have seen this season (Villa last year being one possible exception). If we could work the ball to Gerrard he could with one 40 yard ball put the opposition on the back foot.

Combined with the pace of Sturridge and non-stop movement of Suarez we could turn defence into attack in the blink of an eye. This made pressing us a risky activity.

If you press us and stop us playing out from the back you stop our plan A. If you stop Gerrard getting his head up and force him to play short and square you stop our plan B.
 
I’m not going to get into the Balotelli debate but having a fit and on form Sturridge will make a big difference psychologically as much as tactically. I do expect Brendan to find a way eventually and I expect us to improve as the season goes on but currently we look like a team that has run out of ideas and is rapidly running out of confidence.

Yes but as you pointed out, if we're doing plan A and B effectively AND mixing them up then what ? Add to that the fact that Lovren also has a good pass on him, Sterlings trajectory hasn't stopped, we've strengthened on the wings and midfield, including Johnson finding his head....

Does anybody remember what it was like at the beginning of last season ? I think before we get concerned about tactical upheaval, its the team gelling and getting back to full fitness has to happen.

The only silver lining is that Sturridge is still out. This means we have time to improve in his absence, proving its not all about Sturridge meaning I win my bet meaning somebody here owes £25 to charity...