Author Topic: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014  (Read 27184 times)

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #120 on: March 26, 2015, 09:49:39 am »
I jumped in there before reading the rest of the thread, those diagrams do seem to suggest we just didn't get to them, and that's the least you can expect from the home team against UTD.

Very disappointing.

Lallana is slow. Sterling was too far back. Sturridge is half arsed. was never going to work really was it.

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #121 on: March 26, 2015, 10:48:28 am »
Got to be careful here as what I'm about to say is most certainly not intended to offend any sensibilities. It's difficult territory to venture into because it's so difficult if not impossible to convey precisely enough what it is you want to say.

 :)

Anyroad firstly PoP - a request.

I'd love to understand those diagrams. So is there any chance of a key and/or explanation as to how to interpret them for those simple souls like myself who aren't familiar with the various symbols etc. eg The long arrows thing? EDIT!! Just saw the post about the red/light blue x's but even so still not entirely sure as to which half of the pitch is us and which is them in each instance.

Secondly, I'm compelled to  throw in here a snap reflection [from an arl arse who was reared on the Shankly 'football's a simple game' philosophy] which impinges on what I perceive as over-emphasis on the tactical analysis. Please don't take it the wrong way as I do fully respect the fact that seemingly to an increasing extent tactical analysis plays such a major part in the game but sometimes it does seem to us arl arses that there's a burgeoning momentum to perhaps view the game as far more complicated than what it actually is - which when it boils down to it is still what it's always been ie man against man/man against men/men against man/men against men/team against team.

Anyroad, the reflection is this - when you have a full back/wing back performing so poorly [ie what seemed like untold miscontrols, misplaced passes, failures to track his man etc etc] as Moreno performed on Sunday often at quite crucial moments of the game such as when they scored their two goals  ;D  does it not render impotent any system no matter how sophisticated or ingenious it might appear in theory. In other words [all other things being equal] despite all the tactical stuff two decent snatches of common sense, individual conscientious tracking back defending play from soft lad Moreno and we would have won the game 1-0.

I guess in simplistic terms I'm kind of saying in the final analysis is the game not actually more about players performing as closely as possible to the respective levels required of them within some 'basic loosely co-ordinated tried and tested down the years' parameters [eg a midfield man patrolling the midfield, making tackles,, interceptions, tracking back, making passes, making frequent short off the ball runs and the occasional long driving off the ball run beyond the opposition back line, dribbling etc etc] rather than some "flip the feckin midfield triangle" elaborations that are so frequently espoused by all and sundry on the telly and these forums.

Kind regards

Timbo the dinosaur.

 :)   

Offline ahfolk79

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #122 on: March 26, 2015, 11:23:51 am »
I also have a question for you PoP. Everyone seems to agree that Moreno was having a shocker on Sunday. To what extent (if at all) can that be corrected by the manager/coach at half time? Is there anything you (or one) can say or explain to him to transform his second half? Does it depend on the individual? Is it a case of just accepting he's not at the races and having to substitute him?

From personal experience, if I'm having a shocker of a game, I've never been able to turn it around after half time. Now, I'm not a professional athlete or even any good but it probably says a lot about my mentality!
"He’s not so much a player I can really take responsibility for. I’d have to share the responsibility for Joe, less so than for people like [Christian] Poulsen, [Raul] Meireles and [Paul] Konchesky, who are players I was quite happy to bring to the club."

Roy feeling justifiably smug about the powerhouses he snatched from under the noses of Barca

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

  • Neghead. hard and gagging. Will never be Barnes
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,684
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #123 on: March 26, 2015, 11:37:28 am »
I also have a question for you PoP. Everyone seems to agree that Moreno was having a shocker on Sunday. To what extent (if at all) can that be corrected by the manager/coach at half time? Is there anything you (or one) can say or explain to him to transform his second half? Does it depend on the individual? Is it a case of just accepting he's not at the races and having to substitute him?

From personal experience, if I'm having a shocker of a game, I've never been able to turn it around after half time. Now, I'm not a professional athlete or even any good but it probably says a lot about my mentality!
I also have a question for you PoP. Everyone seems to agree that Moreno was having a shocker on Sunday. To what extent (if at all) can that be corrected by the manager/coach at half time? Is there anything you (or one) can say or explain to him to transform his second half? Does it depend on the individual? Is it a case of just accepting he's not at the races and having to substitute him?

From personal experience, if I'm having a shocker of a game, I've never been able to turn it around after half time. Now, I'm not a professional athlete or even any good but it probably says a lot about my mentality!
I also have a question for you PoP. Everyone seems to agree that Moreno was having a shocker on Sunday. To what extent (if at all) can that be corrected by the manager/coach at half time? Is there anything you (or one) can say or explain to him to transform his second half? Does it depend on the individual? Is it a case of just accepting he's not at the races and having to substitute him?

From personal experience, if I'm having a shocker of a game, I've never been able to turn it around after half time. Now, I'm not a professional athlete or even any good but it probably says a lot about my mentality!

Take him off. He should have been ripped off
'Tramps like us, baby we were born to run!'

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #124 on: March 26, 2015, 12:19:11 pm »
Timbo,

I reckon in essence you are bob on. With teams at the top it does often come down to the quality of the players.

Was watching a you tube video of Couhtinho that my son had on yesterday, and the actual technical quality he has on the ball his touch and control is exceptional. But he is the only one we have. (and even he couldn't shoot until this year), compared to the other top teams in the EPL and Europe we genuinely have poor quality individuals. I mean they are no where near the technical ability of Chelsea City or Arsenal. IMHO.

That just goes to show though how much greater the sum of the parts can be than the whole though. and that in essence is why Rodgers is doing a great job. I know its facile but how many of ours would get a game at City?

Offline BabuYagu

  • It's Portuguese for 'BabyYoghurt'. The John Motson of RAWK. Or Barry Davies. Or Charley Boorman, even. Expertly silent fist-pumper. Needs to pay more attention. Repeatly analing goalkeepers.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,350
  • wakelet.com/@BabuYagu
    • Wakelet of the Articles I have written
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #125 on: March 26, 2015, 12:36:17 pm »
I think the thing with Moreno that PoP has tried to explain is, what Manchester United planned to do, then executed, was causing these problems on our left hand side. They were pulling our side over onto our right then quickly switching to the left usually leaving Sakho or Moreno isolated. Sakho dealt with the questions asked of him because he is a world class defender and (IMO opinion) relishes pressure. He was my MOTM for us at the weekend.

Moreno, on the other hand, isnīt a full back. He doesnīt have defensive instincts but attacking ones. He played most of his youth football as a forward or winger. He couldnīt deal with the questions being asked. In the build up to the first goal, itīs almost like he sensed a chance to counter attack and took a step forward instead of looking around him, spotting the danger to our side and stepping back.

Iīm not sure we have a traditional left back who is fit and available now. So any of the other names we could play there (Markovic/Sterling) would simply be another young player with attacking instincts who is being overloaded with defensive questions on the day. Flanaghan would be the only obvious choice to me from our squad as someone who would have fared better perhaps.

The reason United were able to do this so frequently, with high success, is we were not getting close to the ball and putting pressure on them. United had plenty of time on the ball to switch play at will, pick out runners with long passes etc. If you give players time and space on the ball, they will impose their game on you. You need to shut them down, cut off their passing options, force them to make quick decisions, turn them back towards their own goal. We did none of those things, so they could impose their game plan on us which was to drag our midfield towards the right, switch it to the left, isolate Sakho &/or Moreno and trust that one of them will switch off if we do it enough with precision.
My first article on Anfield Index on Shaqiri. Enjoy. bit.ly/2mAq3Qd

Offline JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,001
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2015, 12:39:17 pm »
Timbo,

I reckon in essence you are bob on. With teams at the top it does often come down to the quality of the players.

Was watching a you tube video of Couhtinho that my son had on yesterday, and the actual technical quality he has on the ball his touch and control is exceptional. But he is the only one we have. (and even he couldn't shoot until this year), compared to the other top teams in the EPL and Europe we genuinely have poor quality individuals. I mean they are no where near the technical ability of Chelsea City or Arsenal. IMHO.

That just goes to show though how much greater the sum of the parts can be than the whole though. and that in essence is why Rodgers is doing a great job. I know its facile but how many of ours would get a game at City?


I think Sturridge and Lallana have that level of touch ... Sakho too in his own way!

The bigger point is of course valid though
It was a microcosm of our situation that our big first half chance was missed by Lallana and there's was taken by Mata - both good players but Mata cost almost twice as much to buy and is (I think) on nearly twice the wage. Doesn't mean Lallana isn't a good player but that difference is the difference

For all the bleating about 'the most exciting unpredictable league in the world' there's now a massive chance that the clubs with the 4 biggest wage bills will finish in the top 4 positions.
You can buck those odds in a one of season but in the long run you can't - it's a generalisation so please don't quote back exceptions but over time bigger wages = better players

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

  • Currently facing issues around potty training. All help appreciated.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,205
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #127 on: March 26, 2015, 12:39:22 pm »
Timbo,

I reckon in essence you are bob on. With teams at the top it does often come down to the quality of the players.

Was watching a you tube video of Couhtinho that my son had on yesterday, and the actual technical quality he has on the ball his touch and control is exceptional. But he is the only one we have. (and even he couldn't shoot until this year), compared to the other top teams in the EPL and Europe we genuinely have poor quality individuals. I mean they are no where near the technical ability of Chelsea City or Arsenal. IMHO.

That just goes to show though how much greater the sum of the parts can be than the whole though. and that in essence is why Rodgers is doing a great job. I know its facile but how many of ours would get a game at City?

I would pick several of our players in a city side. Sakho, Henderson, Coutinho, at least. If the contract negotiations go tits up they'll  be sniffing for sterling no hesitation.

Lallana has excellent ball control and skill, it's unfair to call coutinho the only one. Although Adam did have a stinker on Sunday. If he scores that chance, we don't lose IMO.
get thee to the library before the c*nts close it down

we are a bunch of twats commenting on a website.

Offline saoirse08

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,856
  • TRUTH. JUSTICE. ACCOUNTABILITY.
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #128 on: March 26, 2015, 12:39:27 pm »
Tremendous OP. Some seriously good writing about football goes on across this site. Always an education reading such tactical insights. Cheers, POP!

Now gotta find time to read the rest of the thread.

Good job there's no meaningful football for a good week or so.
“The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It’s the way I see football, the way I see life.”

"The old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear."

Offline KaiNo7

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #129 on: March 26, 2015, 12:48:07 pm »
I don't think sturridge attitude has been 100 percent right ever since the ballotelli penalty business. He was drilled that it's all about the team, I don't think he can handle that ballotelli just done as he pleased, and totally got away with it.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #130 on: March 26, 2015, 12:52:35 pm »
I don't think sturridge attitude has been 100 percent right ever since the ballotelli penalty business. He was drilled that it's all about the team, I don't think he can handle that ballotelli just done as he pleased, and totally got away with it.

Bullshite. Balotelli was supposed to take the penalty ahead of STurridge..

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #131 on: March 26, 2015, 12:53:36 pm »
I think the thing with Moreno that PoP has tried to explain is, what Manchester United planned to do, then executed, was causing these problems on our left hand side. They were pulling our side over onto our right then quickly switching to the left usually leaving Sakho or Moreno isolated. Sakho dealt with the questions asked of him because he is a world class defender and (IMO opinion) relishes pressure. He was my MOTM for us at the weekend.

Moreno, on the other hand, isnīt a full back. He doesnīt have defensive instincts but attacking ones. He played most of his youth football as a forward or winger. He couldnīt deal with the questions being asked. In the build up to the first goal, itīs almost like he sensed a chance to counter attack and took a step forward instead of looking around him, spotting the danger to our side and stepping back.

Iīm not sure we have a traditional left back who is fit and available now. So any of the other names we could play there (Markovic/Sterling) would simply be another young player with attacking instincts who is being overloaded with defensive questions on the day. Flanaghan would be the only obvious choice to me from our squad as someone who would have fared better perhaps.

The reason United were able to do this so frequently, with high success, is we were not getting close to the ball and putting pressure on them. United had plenty of time on the ball to switch play at will, pick out runners with long passes etc. If you give players time and space on the ball, they will impose their game on you. You need to shut them down, cut off their passing options, force them to make quick decisions, turn them back towards their own goal. We did none of those things, so they could impose their game plan on us which was to drag our midfield towards the right, switch it to the left, isolate Sakho &/or Moreno and trust that one of them will switch off if we do it enough with precision.

Cheers for that Babu.

Food for thought.

 :)

Offline KaiNo7

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #132 on: March 26, 2015, 12:57:31 pm »
Bullshite. Balotelli was supposed to take the penalty ahead of STurridge..

That may well of been the case, but ballotelli should not have caused the scene that he did by taking the ball off the captain, in sturridge eyes! That was my take on it

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,551
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #133 on: March 26, 2015, 01:12:22 pm »
I think we are all on the same wavelength as to win these games you typically have to (1) Pass more (2) Tackle more (3) Create more .....list could go on but at the end of the day you need to want it more. They wanted it more than us, were cuter than us in terms of attacking the weak points better and in terms of effort they left very little out there while we looked like we were happy to wave them along for good portions of the match. 

The better teams will try to do the same thing again to us as put pressure on Can & Moreno and in part Sakho then all of a sudden they look flustered. Two of them are not natural defenders & Sakho (like a lot of our defense moments) looks to pass it first even when the alarm bells are ringing that the opposition are about to win it right on our front doorstep. Our midfield is very inexperienced and is crying out for one of Lucas or SG to start these games more often than not. You know the games where the opposition will want it as much as you...Utd & Everton straight off the back will put pressure on inexperienced sides where you may see the worse side of them. That's what we got here.

We can all say it 100 times but a second striker / #7 type playing alongside or just behind Sturridge will stretch the opposition allowing each to make runs so space opens up for the midfield/fellow striker to pass or run into. Also a second striker can drop btw the lines to pick a ball up & turn to see what his partner is doing ahead of him. He has an option ahead of him as when Sturridge drops back he will have none ahead of him. It will also stretch the lines as both defense and the midfield have to pick up this space as all of a sudden a CM will have to drop back / stay back to watch the space. With just Sturridge as a lone striker going btw the lines only a defender has to track him pretty much.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Offline TheBestSideDrew

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #134 on: March 26, 2015, 01:13:18 pm »
I think theres a thread for the balotelli penalty incident. Please use that one fellas, the conversation in this thread is really interesting, wouldn't like to see it derailed.

Mods - apologies - I know its not my place to say so - but it is an interesting thread this, would like it to remain so if possible.


Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #135 on: March 26, 2015, 01:16:09 pm »
That may well of been the case, but ballotelli should not have caused the scene that he did by taking the ball off the captain, in sturridge eyes! That was my take on it

Then Sturridge has to learn that it's not about his ego in the first place.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #136 on: March 26, 2015, 01:28:15 pm »
I would pick several of our players in a city side. Sakho, Henderson, Coutinho, at least. If the contract negotiations go tits up they'll  be sniffing for sterling no hesitation.

Lallana has excellent ball control and skill, it's unfair to call coutinho the only one. Although Adam did have a stinker on Sunday. If he scores that chance, we don't lose IMO.

I take your point, but I don't agree. If you look at a side like Chelsea or city or even arsenal, technically they all have the touch and control required. We simply don't have the ability in all positions that they have.

looking at that Video of Cuohtts was tremendous but the amount of times that he played a ball into a player for a miss control or a shot well wide or a dribble into oblivion was incredible. Look at Matas two goals on sunday, look at the elegant control power and running of Yaya toure. Look at the finishing of Aguero or even Dzeko and costa. Look at the ability of anyone of the Arsenal midfield. Look at the authority of Rooney. Even the rather ridiculous long ball skill set of Fellani. They all operate at a superior technical level than the majority of our squad. Di maria isn't getting a game for UTD, Lallana wouldn't get on the bench. Willian and hazard aren't going to get displaced by Sterling.

Cuottinho is fast getting to the level of Silva for me, albeit in a different mould perhaps. Suarez of course was at that level and beyond, but hes gone because players like that want to be in and amongst equals. Hendo has a brilliant attitude, but he wouldn't get in tottenhams midfields.

We are where we are. The pleasant surprise is actually that its the kids that are brought in that appear able to cut it amongst the elite. Sterling is far from the finished article and Ibe is still quite young and raw, but they appear to have that ability to actually go up a level, where as most look at the very limits of what's achievable for them.

Just looking at one thing in isolation. Sturridge aside, do you ever really think goal as one of our players goes to strike a ball. If they hit the target I'm happy. There is a reason they are with us. Sad but true.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,619
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #137 on: March 26, 2015, 01:31:36 pm »
I take your point, but I don't agree. If you look at a side like Chelsea or city or even arsenal, technically they all have the touch and control required. We simply don't have the ability in all positions that they have.

looking at that Video of Cuohtts was tremendous but the amount of times that he played a ball into a player for a miss control or a shot well wide or a dribble into oblivion was incredible. Look at Matas two goals on sunday, look at the elegant control power and running of Yaya toure. Look at the finishing of Aguero or even Dzeko and costa. Look at the ability of anyone of the Arsenal midfield. Look at the authority of Rooney. Even the rather ridiculous long ball skill set of Fellani. They all operate at a superior technical level than the majority of our squad. Di maria isn't getting a game for UTD, Lallana wouldn't get on the bench. Willian and hazard aren't going to get displaced by Sterling.

Cuottinho is fast getting to the level of Silva for me, albeit in a different mould perhaps. Suarez of course was at that level and beyond, but hes gone because players like that want to be in and amongst equals. Hendo has a brilliant attitude, but he wouldn't get in tottenhams midfields.

We are where we are. The pleasant surprise is actually that its the kids that are brought in that appear able to cut it amongst the elite. Sterling is far from the finished article and Ibe is still quite young and raw, but they appear to have that ability to actually go up a level, where as most look at the very limits of what's achievable for them.

Just looking at one thing in isolation. Sturridge aside, do you ever really think goal as one of our players goes to strike a ball. If they hit the target I'm happy. There is a reason they are with us. Sad but true.

What about Sturridge's touch for his goal against West Ham?

Its completly untrue that Coutinho is our only technical player. He, along with Sturridge, Balotelli, Lallana, Ibe, Sterling, Lucas all have excellent touches and technical ability. This is a far more skilfull team than we have had in a while.

Also, whilst I am not Henderson's biggest fan, you are off your rocker if you think he doesn't get into Spurs' midfield.

Honestly, are you on a wind up?

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #138 on: March 26, 2015, 01:32:29 pm »

I think Sturridge and Lallana have that level of touch ... Sakho too in his own way!

The bigger point is of course valid though
It was a microcosm of our situation that our big first half chance was missed by Lallana and there's was taken by Mata - both good players but Mata cost almost twice as much to buy and is (I think) on nearly twice the wage. Doesn't mean Lallana isn't a good player but that difference is the difference

For all the bleating about 'the most exciting unpredictable league in the world' there's now a massive chance that the clubs with the 4 biggest wage bills will finish in the top 4 positions.
You can buck those odds in a one of season but in the long run you can't - it's a generalisation so please don't quote back exceptions but over time bigger wages = better players

yeah that's fair.

Lallana has won the lottery getting here though. Never get in any of the big boys first teams for me anyway.

Offline TheBestSideDrew

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #139 on: March 26, 2015, 01:33:52 pm »
If you have a look at this site below (previously recommended by someone on here)

http://epl.squawka.com/liverpool-vs-manchester-united/22-03-2015/english-barclays-premier-league/matches

It shows (I think!) that both Moreno and Sterling had poor games (you can select the players on the left of the screen and pick different criteria to look at with the grey boxes -performance, shots, passing etc)

It was interesting to see their passing positions, range of passing and pass completion numbers.. Their positions for activity look high up the pitch for wing backs... is this normal? If i'm correct thus far, does that mean then they were both trying to attack too much and leaving the space behind?


Further - it looks like Manchester United were either banking on this from the off or read it during the game and focussed on these areas for impact..
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 01:43:47 pm by TheBestSideDrew »

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #140 on: March 26, 2015, 01:51:45 pm »
What about Sturridge's touch for his goal against West Ham?

Its completly untrue that Coutinho is our only technical player. He, along with Sturridge, Balotelli, Lallana, Ibe, Sterling, Lucas all have excellent touches and technical ability. This is a far more skilfull team than we have had in a while.

Also, whilst I am not Henderson's biggest fan, you are off your rocker if you think he doesn't get into Spurs' midfield.

Honestly, are you on a wind up?

no not at all.

there is a school of thought that Sterling is good enough to play for Barcelona. Suarez is only just good enough to get in that side.

I think some times we get a bit carried away with our players, and its all good fun, but objectively I think we are a way off player for player.

All of our players carry a disability of sorts, its why they play for us. I would love it not to be the case but its true. we don't possess many if any Top Notch players.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,619
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #141 on: March 26, 2015, 02:02:27 pm »
no not at all.

there is a school of thought that Sterling is good enough to play for Barcelona. Suarez is only just good enough to get in that side.

I think some times we get a bit carried away with our players, and its all good fun, but objectively I think we are a way off player for player.

All of our players carry a disability of sorts, its why they play for us. I would love it not to be the case but its true. we don't possess many if any Top Notch players.

I agree we do get carried away with our players. It was not so long ago we claimed we had the best full back, keeper, central midfielder, striker and centre back in the league at the same time in Johnson, Agger, Gerrard, Torres and Reina. If they were the best we would have been winning the league that season, not coming 7th.

Sterling isn't good enough for Barcelona just now but he is going to Chelsea or City or teams like that for a massive fee as he is an unreal talent and one of , if not the best players of his age in europe.

We don't have a team of stars but we are not a team of overrated shite mugs either. Teams of overrated mugs do not challenge for the league nor do they show the form we have once we have a established style of play from Dec - March. Just 3 more wins at home to Leicester, Sunderland, Villa, Hull etc. and we would have been above Man City in 2nd.

Saying things like Henderson wouldn't get into Spurs makes me think you are on a wind up. Lots of my family support Spurs and I can tell you for fact every one of them would have Henderson in their side and he would become a key player for them as well.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:04:05 pm by killer_heels »

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #142 on: March 26, 2015, 02:11:19 pm »
Sahko is actually a massive case in point.

I love him, I think he is a tremendous player. But he splits opinion. Some would call him a liability.

When you are at the top of the game you don't split opinions.

Looking for performers at our club, Chottinho is the only one there are few doubts about being something special.

Sturridge last year was getting into the bracket of assured performer week in week out, but the injuries have set him back. Sterling is a young man with a lot to learn.

Im not trying to be provocative. I would suggest our current situation reflects my opinion rather more than yours.










Offline MerseyParadise

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Wool son of Scotty road 'arl fella
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #143 on: March 26, 2015, 02:12:44 pm »
Moreno isnt up to the level we need , yet to see him have a good game, his first touch is awful , yet to see him put a good ball across the box and more often than not will pass it backwards. And as for his defending .....
Insert obscure quote here

Offline MerseyParadise

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Wool son of Scotty road 'arl fella
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #144 on: March 26, 2015, 02:16:33 pm »
I think the thing with Moreno that PoP has tried to explain is, what Manchester United planned to do, then executed, was causing these problems on our left hand side. They were pulling our side over onto our right then quickly switching to the left usually leaving Sakho or Moreno isolated. Sakho dealt with the questions asked of him because he is a world class defender and (IMO opinion) relishes pressure. He was my MOTM for us at the weekend.

Moreno, on the other hand, isnīt a full back. He doesnīt have defensive instincts but attacking ones. He played most of his youth football as a forward or winger. He couldnīt deal with the questions being asked. In the build up to the first goal, itīs almost like he sensed a chance to counter attack and took a step forward instead of looking around him, spotting the danger to our side and stepping back.

Iīm not sure we have a traditional left back who is fit and available now. So any of the other names we could play there (Markovic/Sterling) would simply be another young player with attacking instincts who is being overloaded with defensive questions on the day. Flanaghan would be the only obvious choice to me from our squad as someone who would have fared better perhaps.

The reason United were able to do this so frequently, with high success, is we were not getting close to the ball and putting pressure on them. United had plenty of time on the ball to switch play at will, pick out runners with long passes etc. If you give players time and space on the ball, they will impose their game on you. You need to shut them down, cut off their passing options, force them to make quick decisions, turn them back towards their own goal. We did none of those things, so they could impose their game plan on us which was to drag our midfield towards the right, switch it to the left, isolate Sakho &/or Moreno and trust that one of them will switch off if we do it enough with precision.
could have fooled me , bar 1 decent shot agaisnt spurs and a long rage effort agaisnt spurs at home his shooting is awful, his crossing seems to be to smash it into the first man as hard as possible
Insert obscure quote here

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #145 on: March 26, 2015, 02:20:02 pm »
I agree we do get carried away with our players. It was not so long ago we claimed we had the best full back, keeper, central midfielder, striker and centre back in the league at the same time in Johnson, Agger, Gerrard, Torres and Reina. If they were the best we would have been winning the league that season, not coming 7th.

Sterling isn't good enough for Barcelona just now but he is going to Chelsea or City or teams like that for a massive fee as he is an unreal talent and one of , if not the best players of his age in europe.

We don't have a team of stars but we are not a team of overrated shite mugs either. Teams of overrated mugs do not challenge for the league nor do they show the form we have once we have a established style of play from Dec - March. Just 3 more wins at home to Leicester, Sunderland, Villa, Hull etc. and we would have been above Man City in 2nd.

Saying things like Henderson wouldn't get into Spurs makes me think you are on a wind up. Lots of my family support Spurs and I can tell you for fact every one of them would have Henderson in their side and he would become a key player for them as well.

fair enough then, my last post was before I read this one.

honestly not on a wind up. If you genuinely believe that Henderson is technically as good as dembele or bentaleb or the other one who's name escapes me then we will have to agree to disagree. I think the world of Hendo, I really do but he is limited. All players are to some degree. Was Fergie just sticking the boot in when he said he had doubts about his running style, the mans an absolute C@%t but in his opinion Henerson wasn't up to the standards he looked for in a player. He splits opinions.

Lucas another case, not his biggest fan, others on here would have you believe he should be bossing it for brazil and a world select 11 in the centre of the park. When opinions are split, the truth usually lies somewhere in between. And that in between level is not in the elite.

We have seen an elite performer at this club in the last 3 years, do you really believe we have anyone else that comes close to that level of ability or consistency?

Offline BabuYagu

  • It's Portuguese for 'BabyYoghurt'. The John Motson of RAWK. Or Barry Davies. Or Charley Boorman, even. Expertly silent fist-pumper. Needs to pay more attention. Repeatly analing goalkeepers.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,350
  • wakelet.com/@BabuYagu
    • Wakelet of the Articles I have written
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #146 on: March 26, 2015, 02:38:25 pm »
could have fooled me , bar 1 decent shot agaisnt spurs and a long rage effort agaisnt spurs at home his shooting is awful, his crossing seems to be to smash it into the first man as hard as possible

Watch his movement. Itīs better than most strikers, he is outstanding at staying onside and then getting in behind the defence. I wish Balotelli had Morenoīs movement in attack :D

Quote
“All players love to score goals, especially me, because when I was younger I used to score regularly as I played further forward back then,” Moreno said. “When I was a kid I played more as a winger or a wide attacking midfielder — not as a full-back. But I always like to score goals and above all, provide assists, which is what an attacking full-back has to do.” - Alberto Moreno, November 2014
My first article on Anfield Index on Shaqiri. Enjoy. bit.ly/2mAq3Qd

Offline Red Sea

  • ...has (de)parted.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,643
  • BR is the hero we need, not the hero we deserve.
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #147 on: March 26, 2015, 02:48:49 pm »
fair enough then, my last post was before I read this one.

honestly not on a wind up. If you genuinely believe that Henderson is technically as good as dembele or bentaleb or the other one who's name escapes me then we will have to agree to disagree. I think the world of Hendo, I really do but he is limited. All players are to some degree. Was Fergie just sticking the boot in when he said he had doubts about his running style, the mans an absolute C@%t but in his opinion Henerson wasn't up to the standards he looked for in a player. He splits opinions.

Lucas another case, not his biggest fan, others on here would have you believe he should be bossing it for brazil and a world select 11 in the centre of the park. When opinions are split, the truth usually lies somewhere in between. And that in between level is not in the elite.


Having players like Hendo is fine, if supplemented by real quality, Ferguson knew this, which was why he fielded willing runners like Butt alongside Keane or Scholes ect. If your team is made up of Hendo types, you're in trouble, and our midfield has plenty of lung power and desire to make up he ground but lacks a real top drawer individual. Have that player next to Hendo and suddenly Henderson will look better as he can give the ball to the new signing knowing he won't lose it.
But then, we can't have 11 Coutinho's, so we have to find the balance, which is something Pre-Guardiola Bayern did better than anyone in recent times.

Offline MerseyParadise

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Wool son of Scotty road 'arl fella
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #148 on: March 26, 2015, 02:52:13 pm »
Watch his movement. Itīs better than most strikers, he is outstanding at staying onside and then getting in behind the defence. I wish Balotelli had Morenoīs movement in attack :D

i love to score goals but im shit at it.

if you say his movement is so good then i just wish his passing , shooting dribbling and defending was up that standard because iv never seen him go past a man , most of his shots end up being sliced and his first touch invairably goes backwards. 

If the best thing you can say about a full back is that he is good at staying onside your scratching
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:59:11 pm by MerseyParadise »
Insert obscure quote here

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #149 on: March 26, 2015, 03:02:18 pm »
Having players like Hendo is fine, if supplemented by real quality, Ferguson knew this, which was why he fielded willing runners like Butt alongside Keane or Scholes ect. If your team is made up of Hendo types, you're in trouble, and our midfield has plenty of lung power and desire to make up he ground but lacks a real top drawer individual. Have that player next to Hendo and suddenly Henderson will look better as he can give the ball to the new signing knowing he won't lose it.
But then, we can't have 11 Coutinho's, so we have to find the balance, which is something Pre-Guardiola Bayern did better than anyone in recent times.

Yep, I think your spot on.

Hendo as your worst player and you are in dreamland, he cant be your best though or your in Wearside.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2015, 04:32:22 pm »
Got to be careful here as what I'm about to say is most certainly not intended to offend any sensibilities. It's difficult territory to venture into because it's so difficult if not impossible to convey precisely enough what it is you want to say.

 :)

Anyroad firstly PoP - a request.

I'd love to understand those diagrams. So is there any chance of a key and/or explanation as to how to interpret them for those simple souls like myself who aren't familiar with the various symbols etc. eg The long arrows thing? EDIT!! Just saw the post about the red/light blue x's but even so still not entirely sure as to which half of the pitch is us and which is them in each instance.

Secondly, I'm compelled to  throw in here a snap reflection [from an arl arse who was reared on the Shankly 'football's a simple game' philosophy] which impinges on what I perceive as over-emphasis on the tactical analysis. Please don't take it the wrong way as I do fully respect the fact that seemingly to an increasing extent tactical analysis plays such a major part in the game but sometimes it does seem to us arl arses that there's a burgeoning momentum to perhaps view the game as far more complicated than what it actually is - which when it boils down to it is still what it's always been ie man against man/man against men/men against man/men against men/team against team.

Anyroad, the reflection is this - when you have a full back/wing back performing so poorly [ie what seemed like untold miscontrols, misplaced passes, failures to track his man etc etc] as Moreno performed on Sunday often at quite crucial moments of the game such as when they scored their two goals  ;D  does it not render impotent any system no matter how sophisticated or ingenious it might appear in theory. In other words [all other things being equal] despite all the tactical stuff two decent snatches of common sense, individual conscientious tracking back defending play from soft lad Moreno and we would have won the game 1-0.

I guess in simplistic terms I'm kind of saying in the final analysis is the game not actually more about players performing as closely as possible to the respective levels required of them within some 'basic loosely co-ordinated tried and tested down the years' parameters [eg a midfield man patrolling the midfield, making tackles,, interceptions, tracking back, making passes, making frequent short off the ball runs and the occasional long driving off the ball run beyond the opposition back line, dribbling etc etc] rather than some "flip the feckin midfield triangle" elaborations that are so frequently espoused by all and sundry on the telly and these forums.

Kind regards

Timbo the dinosaur.

 :)   

Bloody 'ellfire Timbo - do you need it in large print and all? :D

Seriously though, I thought the diagrams from Squawka had arrows on them to show the direction of play. Any road, for those ones, Liverpool are playing left to right, and United are playing right to left. So with that in mind, you could see that they worked much harder in our half of the field than we did in theirs.

As for the second one - I agree to a very large extent. To dive into a bit of theory, though. In football development (youth upwards), there are four "pillars" of the game that are generally recognised - Technical, Tactical, Physical, Mental (including lifestyle and social). When you are developing youth players, you start with the technical (they need to learn how to control and move the ball), then you add the tactical (starting with things like width and depth, movement, penetration, pressure and cover, then moving onto formations and combination play), then you add the physical (once they've hit puberty and you can start serious physical preparation, because you have to be fit to be a pro) and finally the mental/social is the last stage (preparing to be a professional player, the will to win, overcoming obstacles, preparing your body through diet and having the right social lifestyle and support). So for a young player learning the game, the importance of the pillars is in that order - Technical, Tactical, Physical, then Mental.

However, once a player becomes a professional, that order is reversed. To go out on a field against another team of professionals, you have to have a never-lose attitude, at least, and an always-win attitude at best. So the mental preparation is the most important. After that, you have to be 100% physically prepared, to the point that you are comfortable putting your body on the line for every ball. Once you are on that level, you have to know the team's tactics, your role in them, and any adaptations that might be made. Finally, once you have all three of those, you have to make sure that your already high technical level remains high.

For me, we fell at the first pillar against United. Our mentality was all wrong. We almost expected to ease into the game, like two boxers, feeling each other out for a round, getting to know the lay of the land. Instead, like Ali against Foreman, United came out and swung a big overhand right at our heads, and we were wobbled from the beginning, and it took us 30 minutes to figure it out. Think back to Wimbledon under Bassett and then Gould. This was their trademark until teams figured it out (and it took a number of seasons for them to figure it out, too). When every team came into a game against them assuming the usual 5 minutes of cautious passing and movement, Wimbledon came out like a wrecking ball from the first minute, smashing anything that moves, and putting the ball down the throat of the opposition and forcing them to cough it up. United did that to us. We weren't mentally prepared for it. It's one thing I have a criticism of Rodgers about, and that is that he seems to believe in the overall superiority of the technical game. 90% of the time, he might be right. But the vital 10% of the time that's left, you need to match the other team as a physical and mental force. I would say, for me, that's the final piece of the jigsaw for Rodgers and these players, more so than any transfer we could bring in. To consistently go into these games swinging a sledgehammer from the start, instead of picking and choosing when to go. Make the opposition worry about us, more than we worry about them.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,111
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2015, 05:51:38 pm »
fair enough then, my last post was before I read this one.

honestly not on a wind up. If you genuinely believe that Henderson is technically as good as dembele or bentaleb or the other one who's name escapes me then we will have to agree to disagree. I think the world of Hendo, I really do but he is limited. All players are to some degree. Was Fergie just sticking the boot in when he said he had doubts about his running style, the mans an absolute C@%t but in his opinion Henerson wasn't up to the standards he looked for in a player. He splits opinions.

Lucas another case, not his biggest fan, others on here would have you believe he should be bossing it for brazil and a world select 11 in the centre of the park. When opinions are split, the truth usually lies somewhere in between. And that in between level is not in the elite.

See Ancelotti's and Mourinho's comments on Lucas. Explicitly named in Ancelotti's case, implied in Mourinho's case. Also see their actions relating to our midfielders, specifically Lucas. Just because you don't rate him, doesn't mean others do not. He is a bloody useful piano carrier, using Shankly's definition.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #152 on: March 26, 2015, 06:11:31 pm »
Bloody 'ellfire Timbo - do you need it in large print and all? :D

Seriously though, I thought the diagrams from Squawka had arrows on them to show the direction of play. Any road, for those ones, Liverpool are playing left to right, and United are playing right to left. So with that in mind, you could see that they worked much harder in our half of the field than we did in theirs.

As for the second one - I agree to a very large extent. To dive into a bit of theory, though. In football development (youth upwards), there are four "pillars" of the game that are generally recognised - Technical, Tactical, Physical, Mental (including lifestyle and social). When you are developing youth players, you start with the technical (they need to learn how to control and move the ball), then you add the tactical (starting with things like width and depth, movement, penetration, pressure and cover, then moving onto formations and combination play), then you add the physical (once they've hit puberty and you can start serious physical preparation, because you have to be fit to be a pro) and finally the mental/social is the last stage (preparing to be a professional player, the will to win, overcoming obstacles, preparing your body through diet and having the right social lifestyle and support). So for a young player learning the game, the importance of the pillars is in that order - Technical, Tactical, Physical, then Mental.

However, once a player becomes a professional, that order is reversed. To go out on a field against another team of professionals, you have to have a never-lose attitude, at least, and an always-win attitude at best. So the mental preparation is the most important. After that, you have to be 100% physically prepared, to the point that you are comfortable putting your body on the line for every ball. Once you are on that level, you have to know the team's tactics, your role in them, and any adaptations that might be made. Finally, once you have all three of those, you have to make sure that your already high technical level remains high.

For me, we fell at the first pillar against United. Our mentality was all wrong. We almost expected to ease into the game, like two boxers, feeling each other out for a round, getting to know the lay of the land. Instead, like Ali against Foreman, United came out and swung a big overhand right at our heads, and we were wobbled from the beginning, and it took us 30 minutes to figure it out. Think back to Wimbledon under Bassett and then Gould. This was their trademark until teams figured it out (and it took a number of seasons for them to figure it out, too). When every team came into a game against them assuming the usual 5 minutes of cautious passing and movement, Wimbledon came out like a wrecking ball from the first minute, smashing anything that moves, and putting the ball down the throat of the opposition and forcing them to cough it up. United did that to us. We weren't mentally prepared for it. It's one thing I have a criticism of Rodgers about, and that is that he seems to believe in the overall superiority of the technical game. 90% of the time, he might be right. But the vital 10% of the time that's left, you need to match the other team as a physical and mental force. I would say, for me, that's the final piece of the jigsaw for Rodgers and these players, more so than any transfer we could bring in. To consistently go into these games swinging a sledgehammer from the start, instead of picking and choosing when to go. Make the opposition worry about us, more than we worry about them.

Aw many thanks for taking the time and trouble for all that PoP. Much appreciated.

It's clarified an awful lot - not least you may be surprised to know - that I'd not thought even for a second that such an erudite academic approach had entered the game. Yet you illustrating it makes it seem so obvious that that is precisely what would inevitably happen as time has gone on. With me coming from a time when you just turned up and got on with it and it was merely all about playing it had never crossed my mind that all the theoretical tactical stuff we are bombarded with today has arrived not by chance but on the back of a considered and inevitable evolution. I feel a bit daft in not putting two and two together but that's what you get I guess when you switch off to what is going on around and simply turn up and watch the game. You get left behind. I'm sure it applies to loads like me. Certainly none of the fellas I know or go the game with know any more than me.

Wait till I tell them all how feckin ignorant they all are!!! 

As it happens, ironically given your nod to The La's [great nod BTW] and Kavah's crack on page 1 about me doing a similar thing linked to THE BAND, something weirdly akin to my ignorance/blind spot on the game's evolution has happened this past few days in respect of The Band [it's a group I've religiously been devoted to since 1968] in that a real afficianado of them, noted Chicago keyboard player hmself, has put me right about the member of the group who performed all the intricate piano accompaniments/solo snatches on their songs. Again it's something I should have deduced but it simply hadn't dawned on me over all those years.

I'm just hoping this run of rude awakening from blissful ignorance doesn't come in threes and something altogether more sobering is about to strike!!

  :)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:13:08 pm by Timbo's Goals »

Offline BabuYagu

  • It's Portuguese for 'BabyYoghurt'. The John Motson of RAWK. Or Barry Davies. Or Charley Boorman, even. Expertly silent fist-pumper. Needs to pay more attention. Repeatly analing goalkeepers.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,350
  • wakelet.com/@BabuYagu
    • Wakelet of the Articles I have written
Re: Round Table - Liverpool (1) v Manchester United (2), March 22nd 2014
« Reply #153 on: March 26, 2015, 06:19:37 pm »
i love to score goals but im shit at it.

if you say his movement is so good then i just wish his passing , shooting dribbling and defending was up that standard because iv never seen him go past a man , most of his shots end up being sliced and his first touch invairably goes backwards. 

If the best thing you can say about a full back is that he is good at staying onside your scratching

You are a strange and unnecessarily confrontational character arenīt you. I was explaining how Moreno in youth football was a forward/winger. He thinks like a forward/winger. I evidenced this by quotes from the player himself and an example of how his movement in attack is better that some forwards at the club. The purpose for me discussing this was to show why Manchester United targetted that side and why it worked.

However, it seem you have a problem with Moreno, so Iīll leave you to it. This isnīt the thread for your desire to hammer the kid though, might want to move it along elsewhere. Round tables are reserved for sensible discussion.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:22:00 pm by BabuYagu »
My first article on Anfield Index on Shaqiri. Enjoy. bit.ly/2mAq3Qd