Author Topic: We need a footballer in the goal  (Read 35004 times)

royhendo

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We need a footballer in the goal
« on: March 4, 2015, 01:27:52 pm »
Wrote this last night for TAW.
http://t.co/B6wRtPXyiY

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LIVERPOOL doesn’t have a footballer in the goal at the moment. But Liverpool needs a footballer in the goal. Sure, at the moment, without a footballer in the goal, Liverpool are doing OK. But the fact they don’t have a footballer in the goal is taking its cosmic toll. When judgement day comes, we’ll pay a heavy price. Other sides less worthy than ours will find themselves propelled above us in the footballing pantheon, and we’ll kick ourselves at the chance we missed to do something really special. Unless, that is, we get the right keeper.



"No Pasaran”
Remember the first season under Rodgers? There was no compromise. Liverpool played half a season with a sense of vertigo sweeping through the stands, as the new manager set about imposing his preferred ‘death by football’ style on his newly-inherited squad. We’d have 11 outfield players versus 10, just the way he’d punched above his weight at Swansea, with Michel Vorm in the goal, team mates squaring balls to him in his six-yard box as opposing sides tried to press, and Vorm dinking the ball over the advancing marker, or slide ruling through to a midfield replete with players comfortable turning into play. Ashley Williams, Steven Caulker, Leon Britton, Vorm – a comfy little diamond that could circulate a ball until the cows came home, no matter, it seemed, which team they faced, or how much pressure they applied. Each player was limited in some respect, but the blend worked well. Surely with better players, Liverpool would reap the benefits of the same approach before too long. It’d just take time a little time to bed in. (Two and a half seasons, as it turns out.)

The way our keeper, back four and defensive midfielder played through the first half of Rodgers’ first season at the club had older fans in purple faced heart palpitations. Liverpool took the field at home against Man City and refreshingly went toe-to-toe, bossing the game, and leading until the closing stages, when Martin Skrtel (ironically the only one of the starting defenders left from that time) played an ill-advised blind ball back to Pepe Reina with Carlos Tevez lurking in his blind spot. The Reds, despite dominating the champions, saw three points turn into one, due in no small part to a manager demanding football from players not accustomed to providing it. “No Pasaran”, read the Pepe Reina waver on The Kop. “They shall not pass”. Maybe not, but under this manager it seemed that each and every one of our players, including the goalkeeper, had better bloody learn to, and pronto.

It wasn’t for the faint-hearted. The high point for me was watching a friend lose the run of himself as Stewart Downing, with three pressing players advancing, squared a bullet of a ball from roughly the corner flag to Reina, who dealt with it admirably, the ball emerging on the other side of the tidal wave with the Reds finding themselves free on the counter. In many ways, Reina was the perfect keeper for a Rodgers side, such was his footballing nous. Many of us geeks pencilled him in as an upgrade on Vorm as we sought to predict how the Swansea system would translate to Liverpool. The problem wasn’t that Pepe couldn’t play football — it was more that his team mates couldn’t. Not yet, at least. That and Pepe’s growing and inexplicable inability to stop a ball with his hands.

Compromise Number 1: Sit Deep and Counter
Slowly it dawned on Rodgers that, after half a season, and following long spells without a functional striker (sound familiar?), he was going to have to improvise — to compromise. Playing fancy football and drawing teams out and onto you from your own third brought with it demands that maybe our squad didn’t have the footballing capacity to cope with. Not yet, at least. And so, the manager compromised.

We signed Coutinho and Sturridge, played Carragher, and found a working balance, sitting deeper, striking at the heart of opposing teams with our new found weapons, hitting on the break with searing pace, and seeing often devastating results. The pressure to play football from the back was lifted, and the side saw results improve, not because the approach was intrinsically better; but because it better fitted the players, their nerves, and their level of adaptation to Rodgers’ methods — their level of footballing capacity. We carried players less able to function on the ball, and relied heavily on compensating players more able to play into pressure to keep us ticking.

But each passing session and each passing week saw the squad’s level of adaptation rise. The team was developing a footballing capacity it had lacked for a very long time. Interesting things happen in those circumstances. All it takes is a catalyst to spark things off — all it takes is a big enough jolt of collective belief.

Compromise Number 2: Be Obdurate
Rodgers’ first close season brought Reina’s departure, and the team started afresh, founding his second season on a new-found defensive obduracy. The new keeper, Simon Mignolet, stood behind the collossal shield provided by his centre halves, set us on the path to our unexpected near miss in the League with a clutch penalty save against Stoke, and three consecutive clean sheets. We started the season without Suarez, with all eyes on the new signing Iago Aspas, hoping he might compensate in some way. We looked light on quality in depth up front, and so Rodgers compromised again, this time going with an almost smash and grab approach in relative terms, ceding possession to the opposing side and controlling games without the ball, or when needed, putting bodies on the line. The new keeper fared well, making big saves in behind the big blocks. But the compromise was fragile.

You see, a Brendan Rodgers team is a Brendan Rodgers team. We’ve seen the scientific papers, after all. He trains his side in small-sided games. Games in which players develop intensity, and a capacity for pressure football, and for pace and incision in transition. They learn good habits on the ball. They don’t spend time as 11s working on coordinated team shape drills. They learn to build their footballing capacity, both as individuals, and as a group. So naturally the footballing capacity continued to build, and without the distraction of European Competition, the jolt — the catalyst we talked about above — came not when Suarez returned from his ban, but when Gerrard and Sturridge were ruled out for Spurs in November.

Jesus. None of us realised what that side was capable of up until that point, but boy did we all wake up — the team themselves included. They didn’t just beat Spurs. They obliterated Spurs. All of that potential suddenly revealed itself, and the team seemed on the brink of something special. But in among it all were hints of problems to come in the goalkeeping department. People will forget, of course, but that game brought with it a few near misses, with responsibility falling squarely at Mignolet’s feet. Soldado could have had a penalty when the game was still in the balance, which might have seen Mignolet sent off, all down to Mignolet’s lack of assurance with the ball at his feet. In contrast, playing for the side that conceded five on the night (when it could have been nine or 10), Lloris was a plausible contender for man of the match. Lloris was exactly the kind of keeper we needed (and Kenny Dalglish wanted), but didn’t have.

A Brendan Rodgers team, you see, coached week in and week out like a Brendan Rodgers team, will tend to play more and more like a Brendan Rodgers team. It will start to believe in its own ability. That means it will, at times, rely on its goalkeeper’s ability with his feet. The goalkeeper will have to sweep, and the goalkeeper, more than he might have to for other sides, will be expected to pick out a man in a red shirt — a higher bar to clear than the ‘clear your lines’ mark imposed by other managers.

Remember the high jump at school? Set the bar low enough and you’re flying. But a bar set an inch or so above your comfort zone? Put in a worldie and maybe you’d clear it, but part of your mind becomes noisy, convincing you that you’ll break your back if you try it, no matter how implausible that might be. So it was with Mignolet. Clear your lines? Grand. He could do that without thinking. He might even pick out his winger on the instep. But tell him you expect him to pick out that winger with even a striker as cumbersome as Soldado on top of him? He wasn’t that keeper. He never would be. And so the team continued, as a rule, to sit deeper and hit on the break. The possession stats betrayed the ongoing compromise, but nobody cared. It was working, so why bother to change it?


A Compromise Forgotten
For the remainder of his second season, after Spurs away, Rodgers saw his young team develop a level of belief not seen at the club for a very long time. Week on week, session after session, adaptation after adaptation, the team grew in footballing capacity, and as Spring came, new shoots began to appear. The team found new ways to amaze us all with every passing game.

We went to Old Trafford and bossed the home side in every single aspect of the game — it was beautiful. But still Mignolet was Mignolet and as such his confidence was only as resilient as the compromise struck to accommodate him in the side. The slightly deeper line, the ceding of possession in favour of a more direct game. But oddly, as the 10 other players grew together, they started to believe they could impose themselves home and away on whoever they played. They were almost right. They almost tore our collective hearts from our chests away at Carrow Road, mind, but they did it. They found new ways to do it. But the heart problems — quite often they centred around the goalkeeper, and on those immediately around him.

You see, this young side that had steadily developed the belief that it could dominate sides home and away, and impose its will on football matches no matter what the circumstances, was naturally less and less inclined to provide a comfort blanket for their goalkeeper when in the throes of ecstatic interplay. Imposing their game, the goalkeeper suddenly had to fend for himself, and slowly it led to a crisis of confidence in his heart and his mind. It was maybe natural — better goalkeepers than Mignolet had fallen foul of this phenomenon in the past.

Take Vítor Baía for example. He had been Bobby Robson’s keeper — his trusted custodian. The Barca goalkeeping coach at the time, Frans Hoek, said: “At that moment Vítor was, in my opinion, one of the best goalkeepers in the world and he functioned well within Robson’s 1:4:4:2 system.” But when Louis Van Gaal took the reins, he implemented a different system. Hoek described the impact on the goalkeeper, saying: “Baía changed from a big, strong, confident goalkeeper to the exact opposite. Afterwards I realised he was placed in a concept in which he did not feel the least bit confident. He now had a lot of space in front of him in which he played a role and was forced to become part of the build up. These were not his strongest assets.”

How did Van Gaal fix the problem? He bought another keeper — Ruud Hesp — who could play that way. As Hoek said: “This turned out to be a great choice.”

Mignolet’s existential crisis, of course, steadily heightened into the Autumn of 2014 with Rodgers eventually dropping him in favour of Brad Jones. And that’s about all I have to say about that.


Compromise Number 3: Three at the Back
Rodgers, with a squad full of players who could play a bit, two keepers on the brink of a nervous breakdown, and… you guessed it… a dearth of viable striking options, happily arrived at a compromise that fixed…well, just about everything. He slotted in Emre Can at the back alongside Skrtel and Sakho, added a liberal sprinkling of quality in the midfield and wing back positions, and used Sterling to stretch things up front – oddly, the qualities he told us he needed from his strikers during his first season (he needed mobility and pace, he said — qualities suddenly in short supply with Sturridge consigned to the bench and Suarez offski to Barca). It worked! And it’s continuing to work for the most part.

But here’s the thing: Rodgers continues to develop his squad, and his squad’s footballing capacity continues to rise. Gerrard, blink and you’d have missed it, has been injured for several games, with Sturridge a bit part player. Suarez is long gone. Yet this team had played Chelsea off the park twice (somehow contriving not to get to the League Cup final), and unceremoniously pumped the Champions. It was working well, people said. But it remained — and still remains — a compromise. And a compromise largely put in place to compensate for an ill-fitting goalkeeper — to make him feel comfortable. We sit deeper. We deny space between the keeper and the defensive line. We do what we can to make him feel comfortable, and for the most part, sides set up in front of us. We don’t really draw them onto us — not yet at least.

The side looks fluid, but the whole thing has reached a stage where, to find that extra edge — that little extra upside that will make all the difference when it matters — we need to address the opportunity cost. We now boast players throughout the side who can play football — who demand the ball, and who are comfortable in units in playing their way through pressure — who actually relish doing that.

Watch the team when a free kick is conceded by the opposing side. They’re itching to take it quickly and hurt teams. How many times do we see defensive players emerge with the ball at their feet through the lines of the opposing side (most notably through Emre Can)? How many times have you seen Allen, Lallana, Henderson, Sterling and Coutinho turn on a ball with a marker touch tight and open up a world of space in behind? Add to that the pace and incision from wide positions in the form of Ibe, Moreno, and Markovic. As a collective, how many times have we seen this team press the opposition, in a way reminiscent of last season, when all of our truly ‘big’ names were still available? We’re ripe for a game that imposes itself properly, and without compromise. These players shouldn’t have to carry weak links or compromise their set up to accommodate them. Not any more. The time is ripe to make the next big leap.


No More Compromises
When his Barcelona Dream Team was on the rise in the early 90s, legend has it that Johan Cruyff was dead set on fielding an extra midfielder in their goal. Why was that? Well, they were on the brink of something special in terms of the side’s footballing capacity, and Cruyff felt that by adding one more footballer building their play from the back, well… they’d surely find out.

His coaches talked him out of it, and it’s a shame. Imagine a side with 11 playmakers, decision makers, and footballing brains on the pitch — just imagine it. The standard keeper fields a ball, calms things down, takes his seconds, and lets his team mates get themselves into position up field, while the opposing side get themselves set — get themselves organised. The footballing keeper in a footballing side eschews all that.

He knows that his centre mid can receive a ball threaded to him at pace with his back to goal and turn his man, carry the ball into the space behind, breaking opposing lines and disrupting their organisation before they really know what’s happening. In recent weeks, we’ve seen Coutinho and Sterling make mincemeat of the two best sides in the country that way, receiving balls from defenders and midfielders on the half turn.

Imagine if we had a keeper who could do that the minute he fielded a ball? Or imagine a keeper who, faced with pressure from attackers on receiving a back pass, relished that pressure, and found the instep of a team mate out wide and in behind his cover, setting us on the attack once more instead of slicing it into touch. Goalkeepers like that do actually exist. We had one in Reina once upon a time. And these goalkeepers can keep goal, too. They can field high balls, and punch to clear, and command their area. They tend to be a little mad, and brash, and overconfident. Maybe the occasional rick will happen — but hey, that happens with the traditional set up anyway doesn’t it?

Of course, it only works if you have players who can work with the ball in that way; but we have a squad full of them. We have a squad full of players who are itching to play the kind of imposing game they know they’re capable of. They don’t want to carry their keeper. They want their keeper to set a foundation for them, and to help them open things up — to get the ball to them quickly in areas where they can hurt the opposing side. They say a great goalkeeper can win your team 10 points a season; but what about a keeper who tips the way you play over the critical edge? How much of an impact would that player make to the group as a whole?

Rodgers said after the Man City game: “We like to press the game really hard and aggressively, and I like a technical game.”

To do that fully, week in and week out, we’re only missing a couple of critical pieces. We need to clone Sturridge, of course. We’ll have three of him. But Lordy Lord above, please deliver us one, if not two, proper footballing goalkeepers.

And then sit back and enjoy what unfolds.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #1 on: March 4, 2015, 01:43:13 pm »
Superb.

I've no shame in saying that Royhendo is almost the sole reason I ever visited RAWK in the first place, with the whole Level 3 discussion. This is a further example of why. Great piece.

Must read for, well, pretty much everyone, really.
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Offline Zephyr

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #2 on: March 4, 2015, 01:46:15 pm »
Fun read. Cheers.

 :)
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royhendo

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #3 on: March 4, 2015, 01:51:35 pm »
Ta lads (and ta PoP - made my day that). :)

Van Gaal's quotes today about their keeper being their 11th player is interesting - it betrays his approach, while also highlighting (via the reaction) how people in this country don't see the keeper's role the same way. For them it's about back passes and the need to not be seen to be boring.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #4 on: March 4, 2015, 01:55:38 pm »
Ta lads (and ta PoP - made my day that). :)

Van Gaal's quotes today about their keeper being their 11th player is interesting - it betrays his approach, while also highlighting (via the reaction) how people in this country don't see the keeper's role the same way. For them it's about back passes and the need to not be seen to be boring.

In Holland (and in the recent decade, by extension) on coaching courses, you get a bad mark in your coaching assessment if you don't write a formation as "1-x-x-x". For shorthand purposes, writing "4-4-2" or "3-4-2-1" makes sense, since we can all assume the keeper is on the teamsheet, as it is the one position required by the laws. However, the Dutch long ago figured out that this basically consigned the keeper to mere shot-stopper. So when you write out your formation on your practice plan, you must write "1-4-4-2" or "1-3-4-2-1". This shows that you recognise that the keeper is very much a part of all functions of the game - attack, defence and transition.
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Offline Dougle

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #5 on: March 4, 2015, 02:04:57 pm »
Well I completely agree with you Roy, kind of. I've heard it explained as to why we bought Migs, knowing that he was a really good shot stopper (as against what Pepe was tending to become). However, even before he'd kicked a ball (in a slow,high, wafty kind of way) I'd read and heard Sunderland supporters pretty much giving us the low down and guess what ? They were right, not great with his feet and we know all the rest. Therefore it really puzzled me as to why BR bought him ? It was the most crucial signing and it's turned out to be a monumental factor in BR's contortions as you described. I don't get why we bought him and that brings me to the "kind of".

BR has evolved, revolved, tinkered, gone hither and tither with selections and strategies and that is proof of what he is as a manager. He is innovative, creative, courageous. He is also stubborn and makes mistakes (in my book we wasted the guts of half a season persisting with players and playing a system while keeping others sidelined who could and did make a huge difference, I particularly mean Lucas and Sakho, not gonna say anything about the newbies because they do take time and we don't know what was going on behind closed doors). He is what he is, I don't take too much notice of what he says but I do watch the games.

To be honest with you I don't know what a real BR team plays like. As you said, we've been "passers to deathers", deep lying counter attackers and now we're controllers and pressers. We've gone from high stake shoot-outers who play without pants on to now, a clever, technical, tight, stingy, smart, pressing team who are not at all easy to play against. So what is the real BR team ?

For what it's worth I would love it if we got another Pepe in his prime, I'd love to see how we'd go. Does he really want it because if we can see it ......

Offline Robinred

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #6 on: March 4, 2015, 02:05:37 pm »
Excellent Roy.

Agree with every word, but could never have written it with such conviction and detail.
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Offline Zephyr

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #7 on: March 4, 2015, 02:08:56 pm »
Likewise. We really are spoiled with an array of brilliant writers here on RAWK. Probably the largest reason I'll keep on coming back.

Excellent Roy.

Agree with every word, but could never have written it with such conviction and detail.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #8 on: March 4, 2015, 02:44:59 pm »
Good OP! Didn't know that about Barca and Cruyff. Shame they talked him out of it.

I think the goalie position is a known issue that we prefer to keep calm about. Everyone knows we'd like to have a Reina type of keeper. Our system calls for it. It's strange that we haven't got it, but I suspect we're searching. Mignolet is in a similar situation as Balotelli. Good, or even very good, but not the right fit for us. At least not for a leading role.


        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Zeb

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #9 on: March 4, 2015, 02:47:53 pm »
Watching the Barca-City match the other night, ball goes to Ter Stegen, who pinged it instantly to the left wing. Just so.

Enjoyed that Roy.
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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #10 on: March 4, 2015, 02:49:46 pm »
Cracking read, the Cruyff experiment would have been something to behold.
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Offline RedRush

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #11 on: March 4, 2015, 02:57:27 pm »
Great read. Thank you.

Offline jepovic

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #12 on: March 4, 2015, 02:57:54 pm »
Nice OP. Of course, real goalkeepers are human beings so we would have to compromise. Reina was brilliant with his feet, but that was about it in the end. Nobody wants to go back to that. We'd like a great shot stopper, like Mignolet in current form, with the ball skills of Reina. Not many of those around, and goalkeepers in general don't move around much.

I was surprised when Reina was replaced by Mignolet. Very much against Rodgers philosophy, but that also speaks volumes about how difficult it is to get hold of those omnipotent goalies.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #13 on: March 4, 2015, 02:58:17 pm »
The worry I have is that if we get this "midfielder in goal", it means we might change back to a back four. And I worry about how this will impact our defending again, because we will surely have to go back to split centrebacks, and that just doesn't suit Skrtel's game. With Lovren barely keeping his head above water, Can wanting to move into midfield, and Skrtel not being as comfortable on the front foot, would that mean we have to buy a new right-sided defender too? Or could Can be persuaded to stay as the right defender. But that would pretty much mean the end of Skrtel as a starting player. If we keep the back three, though, there's no real need for a ball playing keeper though, in my mind, because the central spot is taken up by a "sweeper", in Skrtel. It's a complex thing with many knock-on effects possible. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, when it plays out.
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Offline Cork Red

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #14 on: March 4, 2015, 03:02:40 pm »
Great article Roy.

Agree with you 100% about the need for a ball-playing keeper.  It's an absolute necessity.

Even if we do get one, though, I'd still be reluctant to switch from 3 at the back.  If we were to revert to a back 4 next season I think we'd have to dip into the market again for a right sided centre half and I don't see too many affordable great ones out there at the moment.  Skrtel has been brilliant in a back 3, but he didn't look too comfortable in a 2 alongside Sakho, neither did Lovren.  Couldn't really see Can working in that system either.  Playing 3 at the back seems to me to negate most of the weaknesses that our centre halves have and allows them to play to their strengths.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #15 on: March 4, 2015, 03:04:18 pm »
The worry I have is that if we get this "midfielder in goal", it means we might change back to a back four. And I worry about how this will impact our defending again, because we will surely have to go back to split centrebacks, and that just doesn't suit Skrtel's game. With Lovren barely keeping his head above water, Can wanting to move into midfield, and Skrtel not being as comfortable on the front foot, would that mean we have to buy a new right-sided defender too? Or could Can be persuaded to stay as the right defender. But that would pretty much mean the end of Skrtel as a starting player. If we keep the back three, though, there's no real need for a ball playing keeper though, in my mind, because the central spot is taken up by a "sweeper", in Skrtel. It's a complex thing with many knock-on effects possible. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, when it plays out.

We could make a slow transition, couldn't we? Keep the same formation/team, add that 'midfielder goalie' and take it from there. As we grow more confident, Rodgers will find a new way forward. I wouldn't want us to rip things up when it works. Rather try and build on it. So put a new goalie in and let him adapt. As the side grows more confident, we change players' roles.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Bruce88

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #16 on: March 4, 2015, 03:05:52 pm »
Mat Ryan is the answer we're looking for.

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #17 on: March 4, 2015, 03:18:57 pm »
Brilliant read from all above .. really excellent


ps
That Barca reserve keeper is a hell of a footballer

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #18 on: March 4, 2015, 03:20:15 pm »
There's some good points about Simon's ability and affect on the side but nothing we already knew.

The premise of this is we're making compromises so we fit Simon in? I don't see that at all, he's a very small part of why we've changed our shape.

You'd think if we were compromising for our goalie all the time we've had 3 windows to be proactive and haven't looked like it.
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royhendo

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #19 on: March 4, 2015, 03:27:42 pm »
Yet Rodgers has made repeated attempts to sign Vorm.

royhendo

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #20 on: March 4, 2015, 03:42:59 pm »
Would it necessarily deprive us of using 3 at the back as an option? It'd affect how high our back line would be set certainly; but is a footballer in goal necessarily a reason to switch back to a 4?

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #21 on: March 4, 2015, 03:43:03 pm »
In Holland (and in the recent decade, by extension) on coaching courses, you get a bad mark in your coaching assessment if you don't write a formation as "1-x-x-x". For shorthand purposes, writing "4-4-2" or "3-4-2-1" makes sense, since we can all assume the keeper is on the teamsheet, as it is the one position required by the laws. However, the Dutch long ago figured out that this basically consigned the keeper to mere shot-stopper. So when you write out your formation on your practice plan, you must write "1-4-4-2" or "1-3-4-2-1". This shows that you recognise that the keeper is very much a part of all functions of the game - attack, defence and transition.
never knew this. Very informative.

Great post by Royhendo too. 

Offline El Diablos

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #22 on: March 4, 2015, 03:44:01 pm »
The worry I have is that if we get this "midfielder in goal", it means we might change back to a back four. And I worry about how this will impact our defending again, because we will surely have to go back to split centrebacks, and that just doesn't suit Skrtel's game. With Lovren barely keeping his head above water, Can wanting to move into midfield, and Skrtel not being as comfortable on the front foot, would that mean we have to buy a new right-sided defender too? Or could Can be persuaded to stay as the right defender. But that would pretty much mean the end of Skrtel as a starting player. If we keep the back three, though, there's no real need for a ball playing keeper though, in my mind, because the central spot is taken up by a "sweeper", in Skrtel. It's a complex thing with many knock-on effects possible. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, when it plays out.

This is an excellent point. And it's not just a back four, it's the way Brendan likes to play it with split CB's and a midfielder who can drop deep between them. With that in mind I think it's not only Skrtel in our current squad who would be uncomfortable with that.


Edit: great OP by RoyH too
« Last Edit: March 4, 2015, 03:46:21 pm by El Diablos »

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #23 on: March 4, 2015, 03:46:18 pm »
Yet Rodgers has made repeated attempts to sign Vorm.
When not this summer then?
Surely Vorm would take here over being benched at Spurs it makes no sense.
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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #24 on: March 4, 2015, 03:55:43 pm »
But what is the financial return to all of this?


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Offline The Playmaker

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #25 on: March 4, 2015, 03:59:15 pm »
Wow! Fantastic writing RoyH. Insightful and interesting in equal measures. Like many others, I thought Pepe Reina would have been perfect for Brendan Rodgers. But alas, it wasn't to be. I also seem to recall Rafa Benitez using Pepe Reina as a midfielder in a friendly once. It did get me thinking about who I would play in goal, if I had to pick a midfielder from our team to play there.

It also got me thinking: would we still need to play the current system that we do with a ball-playing keeper? Or would such a signing force us to revert to a back four once more? I mean, if our keeper acts a sweeper, does that mean that the current role of Skrtel is required? And what does that mean for someone like Martin Skrtel? Would that be the end of him as a Liverpool player? Because if you ask me, Martin Skrtel isn't suited to the role that he would be asked to play in a back four.

Yet, in this sweeper role, he has been brilliant and commanding. He has owned that role. He can do the 'easier' things and focus on what he is good at. I guess the only other player that can play that role is Dejan Lovren. But I would go as far to say that Martin Skrtel is undroppable in that role right now. I think Brendan has and will, find ways in which to adapt to what he has. If he can't, then he looks for other solutions. He has shown that by reverting to a back three.

The interesting thing about Mignolet is, would he be in goal right now had Brad Jones not got injured? It was clear to us all that Brendan had hooked him for some poor peformances earlier on in the season. There is no doubt that many of us don't see Mignolet as a goalkeeper that is brilliant with his feet. He doesn't always look comfortable and he does strike me as someone that prefers to not act as a sweeper. Maybe the idea behind signing him was to develop him into one? Thus far, it hasn't panned out like that.

Emre Can and Mamadou Sakho are the ball playing centre-backs. Both are far more comfortable at playing it forward and progressing our play. I think it makes them feel comfortable and reassured to know that Skrtel is ready to sweep up. In a way, I think it allows Sakho and Can to take more risks in their respective positions. Risks that might be far more costly when you have two centre-backs; even if a midfielder drops deeper between them. I also think at times that the opposition has struggled to deal with Can, in particular, as he makes a surging run forward.
 
So, would I keep Mignolet? In this system, I actually would. I think we should make that compromise if it continues to produce the results and performances that we have seen as of late. We've been in title winning form as of late. I guess there are issues though and challenges that need to be answered, if we are to persist with this system/formation. Ultimately, it obviously falls on Brendan to decide and it is a case of whether or not he wants to compromise again next season by keeping Mignolet as his first choice keeper.

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #26 on: March 4, 2015, 04:03:37 pm »
I was surprised when Reina was replaced by Mignolet. Very much against Rodgers philosophy, but that also speaks volumes about how difficult it is to get hold of those omnipotent goalies.

I guess that is the key really - why was Mig signed in the first place when they must've known that this was a weakness in his game? I guess the positives outweighed the negatives. I understand why Pepe was replaced, maybe it could've been managed a bit better but the problem had to be resolved either in 2013, or now.

The key problem is that we were spoilt by 4/5 years of brilliance from Pepe who had nearly everything you would want in a keeper. That time has gone, and to get the same is nigh on impossible unless you have tons and tons of cash, or are extremely lucky to find a keeper who has great feet (and a great throw) and is a quality shot stopper.

With Mig's late improvement, I'm not sure we would look to replace him in the summer but I guess we should be on the lookout for a reserve who has all the attributes we want, someone who in time might challenge for a place. Of course that is quite difficult in itself which is why Chelsea sent Courtois away for years.

In the meantime, get Mig training with Coutinho and hope a little rubs off on him :)
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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #27 on: March 4, 2015, 05:53:52 pm »
Great read, thanks for that.  Nothing I love more then a well thought out, lengthy post in the morning that I can sit down and read.

Its a very interesting topic, because it likely involves the changing of a formation that has been very successful of late.  We'd probably see a return to the back 4 with a defensive midfielder (playmaker) parked in front.  Does Skrtel fit that formation?  He's been a huge part of our recent success, but in the past has looked out of place in this formation.  He might look a lot better if we have an actual sweeper keeper behind him and a DM who properly shows for the ball though.

I'd personally like to see us make this change, but I can certainly see the argument for keeping on with what we are doing currently.     

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #28 on: March 4, 2015, 06:09:03 pm »
Wonderful stuff, Roy.

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #29 on: March 4, 2015, 07:30:14 pm »
I love PoP's posts - always honest, informed and well reasoned.

But like Roy, I'm flummoxed as to why a "footballer" GK would need to result in a return to a back four.

My thoughts are that it would simply mean, in the first instance, far more opportunities to start swift counter attacks. Or am I being naive and missing something obvious?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #30 on: March 4, 2015, 07:37:38 pm »
I love PoP's posts - always honest, informed and well reasoned.

But like Roy, I'm flummoxed as to why a "footballer" GK would need to result in a return to a back four.

My thoughts are that it would simply mean, in the first instance, far more opportunities to start swift counter attacks. Or am I being naive and missing something obvious?

It's because if we have a footballing keeper, it eliminates the need for Skrtel, as presumably a keeper comfortable on the ball will also be a sweeper keeper. It makes the sweeper position redundant on the field.
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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #31 on: March 4, 2015, 07:38:45 pm »
It's because if we have a footballing keeper, it eliminates the need for Skrtel, as presumably a keeper comfortable on the ball will also be a sweeper keeper. It makes the sweeper position redundant on the field.

Would it makes us better though? We seem to be playing very well with a sweeper and back 3.

I guess it's good to have options though.

Oh and great read thanks Royhendo :wellin

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #32 on: March 4, 2015, 07:40:30 pm »
Would it makes us better though? We seem to be playing very well with a sweeper and back 3.

I guess it's good to have options though.

Oh and great read thanks Royhendo :wellin
The area of improvement is for the sweeper to be more involved with the build-up play and more able to bring the ball out. Hopefully we`ll let Ilori see what he could do in that position.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #33 on: March 4, 2015, 07:42:16 pm »
Would it makes us better though? We seem to be playing very well with a sweeper and back 3.

I guess it's good to have options though.

Oh and great read thanks Royhendo :wellin

I don't know, but a back four certainly wouldn't get the best out of Skrtel, I think. Not the way we would play it. This 3-4-3 is the first time in Rodgers' reign, I think, where we have looked equally strong in defence as in attack. It would be a shame to lose it, but if a manager is dead set on a formation, then he'll always try to get back to that, even to his detriment, and Rodgers loves the 4-3-3. It was the same with Kenny - flexible formations in the caretaker period, then went back to his 1980's era lopsided 4-4-2 with the wide winger and tucked in midfielder on the other side, even though flexible formations worked quite well for us the previous half-season. Managers have their favourite formations that they see the game through (much like posters here, too), and I think most of them will always be looking to get to their favourite formation one way or another.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #34 on: March 4, 2015, 07:42:49 pm »
The area of improvement is for the sweeper to be more involved with the build-up play and more able to bring the ball out. Hopefully we`ll let Ilori see what he could do in that position.

That's a good point, but I'm not sure it will be Ilori. Not if he can't stay injury-free.
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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #35 on: March 4, 2015, 08:59:14 pm »
Interesting read, Roy! Cheers.

It's because if we have a footballing keeper, it eliminates the need for Skrtel, as presumably a keeper comfortable on the ball will also be a sweeper keeper. It makes the sweeper position redundant on the field.

I thought the exact same thing. I mean, Mignolet looks fine right now, Skrtel has been immense. Do we absolutely need a footballing keeper in this system? If we were going to switch to the back four, I'd say yes; but right now, it doesn't seem absolutely necessary.

However, I wouldn't be against options...


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Offline MerseyParadise

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #36 on: March 4, 2015, 10:08:48 pm »
29 points of 33 a goalie an defence playing fantastic  and getting our 10th clean sheet 

but its not good enough.  We need a footballing goalie.  Honestly, only supporters could come up with that
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Offline paddysour

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #37 on: March 4, 2015, 10:13:23 pm »
I'm not sure I get the idea we need to change the system if we sign a footballing keeper.

If Mignolet suddenly developed amazing on the ball skill over the next few weeks we wouldn't change, it would just be a bonus I think

Offline MerseyParadise

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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #38 on: March 4, 2015, 10:21:43 pm »
I'm not sure I get the idea we need to change the system if we sign a footballing keeper.

If Mignolet suddenly developed amazing on the ball skill over the next few weeks we wouldn't change, it would just be a bonus I think

My question is why change it? we have come up with a unique system and style of play that teams cant deal with. Rather than people being desperate that we have a "dutch model" or a "Barcelona philosophy"


lets keep doing what we are doing and in a couple of years other teams will be copying it and "the Rodgers/Liverpool 3 4 3" will be the coaching benchmark for the next 20 years
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Re: We need a footballer in the goal
« Reply #39 on: March 4, 2015, 10:30:24 pm »
My question is why change it? we have come up with a unique system and style of play that teams cant deal with. Rather than people being desperate that we have a "dutch model" or a "Barcelona philosophy"

lets keep doing what we are doing and in a couple of years other teams will be copying it and "the Rodgers/Liverpool 3 4 3" will be the coaching benchmark for the next 20 years
It's much better to be devastating at a few different formations, rather than rely on one. It's best to keep our opponents second guessing how they will stop us, rather than allowing them the opportunity to work on a system to beat ours.