Author Topic: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?  (Read 151512 times)

Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2015, 12:14:50 pm »
snip

I agree. Like I said in my post yesterday, 3-4-3 and 4-3-3 are very similar in possession but you're right that the front three will generally be closer together in the former. Equally true is that Skrtel seems more comfortable in the middle and Can playing RCB has given us a good option to play it out from the back. That's why I think Lovren could potentially be a good alternative to partner Sakho in a back four but he's obviously down in the picking order right now. Also, like you said, Moreno has more freedom to attack and the defensive side of his his game is not tested as much as it would be in a back four. 

Yet playing 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 would give Rodgers the chance to include 4 out of Markovic, Coutinho, Lallana, Gerrard, Sterling and Sturridge (Balotelli) in advanced positions as well as keeping width with the FBs. I think he would set them up to be fluid and instruct them to move across the lines as he usually does anyway.

I'd like to see a return to a back four in some games but I am happy with the progress we've made in this system and I believe the team will continue to improve as long as Rodgers makes positive choices in his selections. I also like the idea of using the diamond again and it might well be on the cards when Sturridge returns.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2015, 12:33:49 pm »
Just imagine how BR felt after the Palace game. 12th game in the season, 1.17 ppg ( that`s like less than 50 pts when extrapolated ) Suarez was sold reluctantly, Alexis rejected us and chose to go to a direct rival, no other outstanding forward available on the market till the end onf the window, our most important player injured for 5 months, our new attacking signings failing to make any kind of contribution not even just to break monotony - total boycott, our best resident players were too young to take over responsibility. A complete and utter mess on both sides of the ball.

So what does he do then? He only just thinks of this new shape that almost nobody else in the division uses ( Hull`s and Utd`s are a bit different ) and manages to go from 1.17 ppg to 2.10 ppg over the last 10 games. I mean how many managers would look at our group of players after Palace game and feel confident they can make such an upturn without a single recognized striker. Incredible.

Last 10 games we matched Chelsea`s record, we are 4th in a league in that period, conceded only 9 goals which extrapolates to about 35 goals conceded in a season which is how much City conceded last season when they won it. We lost 52 goals from the team, made a mess in a striker department and with all the other numerous issues BR still managed to make an U-turn and make us play in a Top 4 form. I mean what can you say?

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2015, 12:46:29 pm »
I think this is the way forward... POP has convinced me. We have the players for it and all we need is a finisher with pace up front. Basically a player like Sterling who is a finisher.. AND he is coming back soon.

The key is the two players Can and Sakho who can pass and move forward into the opposition area to start our attacks. Now opposition presses have to focus on both of them rather than only one ( Reina in his prime - or any keeper who is an excellent passer would actually make us even better).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:50:16 pm by Mr_Shane »

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2015, 12:57:47 pm »
Just imagine how BR felt after the Palace game. 12th game in the season, 1.17 ppg ( that`s like less than 50 pts when extrapolated ) Suarez was sold reluctantly, Alexis rejected us and chose to go to a direct rival, no other outstanding forward available on the market till the end onf the window, our most important player injured for 5 months, our new attacking signings failing to make any kind of contribution not even just to break monotony - total boycott, our best resident players were too young to take over responsibility. A complete and utter mess on both sides of the ball.

So what does he do then? He only just thinks of this new shape that almost nobody else in the division uses ( Hull`s and Utd`s are a bit different ) and manages to go from 1.17 ppg to 2.10 ppg over the last 10 games. I mean how many managers would look at our group of players after Palace game and feel confident they can make such an upturn without a single recognized striker. Incredible.

Last 10 games we matched Chelsea`s record, we are 4th in a league in that period, conceded only 9 goals which extrapolates to about 35 goals conceded in a season which is how much City conceded last season when they won it. We lost 52 goals from the team, made a mess in a striker department and with all the other numerous issues BR still managed to make an U-turn and make us play in a Top 4 form. I mean what can you say?

The thing is, we actually played it earlier than then. If you remember we played it in possession against Newcastle - three centre backs, two pivots, two very high wing backs, two interiores (or whatever else you want to call them) and one forward. It was only out of possession that we played a 4-2-3-1.

The problem in that match was that we just didn't play it very well at all. There was no rotation, no intelligence to open up passing lanes, no ability to construct play from the back or drive into midfield. All that Newcastle did was to leave our back three free, drop their forwards onto our midfielders to force them deep and wide and basically break our midfield. Their midfielders just sat deep and picked off every single pass to Henderson and Coutinho between the lines and so we could never play through them - either Coutinho or Henderson stayed in their positions, in which case there was a complete disconnection through midfield, or they dropped deep, leaving Balotelli even more isolated. All that happened was that possession kept meaninglessly in deep positions until we tried to force it forward then lose it.

Now we're better at playing it, not least because (as should have been obvious at the time) we have players within the back three who are intelligent and comfortable in possession. Can and Sakho are both composed on the ball, both capable of initiating play, both capable of threading balls between the lines, both able to drive into midfield with the ball, even, in Can's case, playing long switches of play. And neither of them make as many errors as Johnson or Lovren. That immediately makes us both more solid and more capable of opening up space on the inside of the opponent's block - it at least means the opponent has a bigger quandary and it forces them to make more precarious trade-offs tactically.

I'm not convinced the change in shape and formation was necessarily that difficult to predict; it was one of the clear options in my opinion. But Rodgers has made it work and he's made it work well so that we now at last have a platform, a basis to build off. What's more, it gives teams a lot of difficulties between the lines. Most teams in England aren't that good at covering the space between the lines generally and they're not particularly used to having to defend two, even three players in that area. It was very noticeable how Mikel and Matic stuck very tight to Coutinho and Gerrard last week, marking them closer than systems of zonal coverage usually entail. Time and time again a gap between them would open up, leaving space for Sterling to drop in and drag Cahill with him. That's exactly how the goal happened - nobody covering the passing lane through the middle, Sterling dropping in, Matic and Mikel not close enough to him, and Chelsea's back line then in a foot race. It's going to be interesting if they persist with this level of man-marking tomorrow or if they change.
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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2015, 01:04:24 pm »
Will be interesting to see when Sturridge is fully fit is Brendan decides to sacrifice the solidity of a back 3 to get in another attacker in the side.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2015, 01:16:43 pm »
What`s unique about our 343 shape is that we are forming this square shape in midfield with 2 CMs and 2 inside forwards between the lines. Usually good passing teams want to form a triangle shape in the middle of the park. Chile at WC and V.Gaal have triangles in midfield and two strikers upfront, BR on the other hand decided to flip the triangle and have two people between the lines. Possibly the idea could be to be effective at getting the ball into the final third.

Arsenal game is perfect demonstration of that as their single pivot had a true nightmare to deal with both Lallana and Coutinho and I think in that game we were getting the ball to final third with unprecedented ease in big games from us. I know that BR will probably flip the triangle again once he finds a suitable partner upfront for Sturridge but either way it`s proper tactical genius move if you ask me.

The key in all of this is of course is getting the likes of Lallana, Coutinho and Sterling close together on the pitch , encouraging them to interchange and create space with tight, sharp, short passing.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2015, 01:18:14 pm »
Will be interesting to see when Sturridge is fully fit is Brendan decides to sacrifice the solidity of a back 3 to get in another attacker in the side.
He won`t have to , he`ll just flip the triangle and have Coutinho behind Sterling and Sturridge as 2 strikers. Perfection if you ask me.

Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2015, 01:23:07 pm »
snip

I think it was only starting against United away that Rodgers made the change permanent. We actually had 2 wins and a draw using 4-2-3-1 in the games in between Palace and Utd. Regardless of the formation, Rodgers' change of approach following the Palace defeat has totally transformed our prospects.

His selections have been more positive and I feel that has been the most important factor. As lankyguy007 says, Markovic and Can coming back into the team is one of the big plus of the formation. It has improved our build up and transition game immensely.  The forward trio of Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling (+ Gerrard/Borini when rotated) has given the attack movement and creativity. Finally, the Henderson-Lucas partnership in the middle has also provided the team with more balance and dynamism.

It has been gradual improvement and I agree with lanky, Rodgers now has a solid platform he can use to go forward and continue the steady improvement of the last month and a half. With Sturridge coming back, we have a lot of reasons to be optimistic about the rest of the season. Whether we continue to use this system or return to a back four, the positives taken from the switch will not be lost.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 01:26:02 pm by Noclio »

Offline peachybum

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2015, 01:26:45 pm »
He won`t have to , he`ll just flip the triangle and have Coutinho behind Sterling and Sturridge as 2 strikers. Perfection if you ask me.

Or he won't and he'll just keep it as is and move Sterling back like he has when Borini was the front man. There's really no NEED to play Sterling out of position as a striker if you have a decent one to actually put in the team.

Will be interesting to see when Sturridge is fully fit is Brendan decides to sacrifice the solidity of a back 3 to get in another attacker in the side.

Problem with that if you changed to 4 at the back you'd lose Markovic anyway as it's not like he can play as full back. So you're not getting another attacking player. You'd be swapping Markovic for Sturridge with Can or Johnson going to right back. I'm not sure there's any point in that. I think when Sturridge comes back we'll see Sterling moved to #10, Gerrard move back to one of the midfield controllers and perhaps Hendo shifted back to right wing back or Lucas dropped. It shouldn't happen but i can't see Gerrard getting in the side any other way. And we know if fit he's in the side.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 01:31:33 pm by peachybum »
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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2015, 01:29:37 pm »
Or he won't and he'll just keep it as is and move Sterling back like he has when Borini was the front man. There's really no NEED to play Sterling out of position as a striker if you have a decent one to actually put in the team.
I think the reasoning is that we played most explosively over last two years when we played with two up top.

Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2015, 01:31:36 pm »
Will be interesting to see when Sturridge is fully fit is Brendan decides to sacrifice the solidity of a back 3 to get in another attacker in the side.

Interestingly, probably the biggest obstacle to going back to a back four is that we'd lose Can's input in possession from the RCB spot. 

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2015, 01:35:18 pm »
I think the reasoning is that we played most explosively over last two years when we played with two up top.

But that was with two of the best strikers about. It was kind of forced on Brendan. And if we had two great striker again it'd certainly be a thing to look at however we currently only have one. This 3421 system allows us to play Sterling and Coutinho both as number #10's. That's an advantage as i think it's their best position. There's really no need to play Sterling out of position. The interesting part will be if we ever sign another top striker and have two on our books at the same time again. Then how do we get those two, Sterling and Coutinho in the side.
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Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2015, 01:39:00 pm »
But that was with two of the best strikers about. It was kind of forced on Brendan. And if we had two great striker again it'd certainly be a thing to look at however we currently only have one. This 3421 system allows us to play Sterling and Coutinho both as number #10's. That's an advantage as i think it's their best position. There's really no need to play Sterling out of position. The interesting part will be if we ever sign another top striker and have two on our books at the same time again. Then how do we get those two, Sterling and Coutinho in the side.

The obvious solution is to go back to 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-1-2 and use Coutinho as part of the midfield trio alongside Henderson with Lucas at the base.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2015, 01:42:00 pm »
I have huge reservations on whether our defensive solidity is possible in a back 4. I don`t see it.

Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2015, 01:46:48 pm »
I have huge reservations on whether our defensive solidity is possible in a back 4. I don`t see it.

Two clean sheets and one goal conceded against Sunderland, Leicester and Stoke say otherwise. They're not the most proficient sides attacking wise but dismantling the Lovren-Skrtel partnership and using Lucas to protect the back line has seen an instant improvement in the defense. I could see it continuing in a back four.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2015, 01:53:22 pm »
Two clean sheets and one goal conceded against Sunderland, Leicester and Stoke say otherwise. They're not the most proficient sides attacking wise but dismantling the Lovren-Skrtel partnership and using Lucas to protect the back line has seen an instant improvement in the defense. I could see it continuing in a back four.
I hear you but for those games against Ludo, Stoke, S`land, Leicester and Basel we were all saying that we were not being our expansive selves , too rigid and not creative enough. That`s why we moved to 3 at the back so we`d have more bodies to press and attack with. Biggest problem was that fullbacks weren`t dominating their flanks and supporting attacks the way we`d like them to.

With 343 we can be defensively solid AND creative at the same time which is something we accomplished for the first time under Rodgers. For me personally we should be insisting on using it as long as it works.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2015, 02:00:33 pm »
Two clean sheets and one goal conceded against Sunderland, Leicester and Stoke say otherwise. They're not the most proficient sides attacking wise but dismantling the Lovren-Skrtel partnership and using Lucas to protect the back line has seen an instant improvement in the defense. I could see it continuing in a back four.

The back four changes Skrtel's game though. The back three puts him in a position to get the best out of him, cover for Mignolet, and allows us to stretch the play, have a central point of reference, AND get Lucas into the team. The 3-4-3 offers a balance that we never have in a 4-2-3-1, although a 4-3-1-2 like last season might also offer a similar balance. But we lose the element of surprise from the back when Can or Sakho move forward like they do in the 3-4-3, if we switch to a back four.
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Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2015, 02:02:53 pm »
I hear you but for those games against Ludo, Stoke, S`land, Leicester and Basel we were all saying that we were not being our expansive selves , too rigid and not creative enough. That`s why we moved to 3 at the back so we`d have more bodies to press and attack with. Biggest problem was that fullbacks weren`t dominating their flanks and supporting attacks the way we`d like them to.

With 343 we can be defensively solid AND creative at the same time which is something we accomplished for the first time under Rodgers. For me personally we should be insisting on using it as long as it works.

Totally agree with you and that's what I was alluding to when I said Rodgers selections have been more positive. Basel at home was so frustrating because we had so few of our technically gifted players on the pitch.

I think it's not surprising that including all four of Markovic, Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling at the same time has improved the fluidity of the attack. Switching to a back four would not prevent that. In possession though, the RCB spot would then be occupied by Skrtel if Rodgers went with a Sakho-Skrtel pairing and we would lose a lot of the positives we have by using Can in there instead.

edit:

The back four changes Skrtel's game though. The back three puts him in a position to get the best out of him, cover for Mignolet, and allows us to stretch the play, have a central point of reference, AND get Lucas into the team. The 3-4-3 offers a balance that we never have in a 4-2-3-1, although a 4-3-1-2 like last season might also offer a similar balance. But we lose the element of surprise from the back when Can or Sakho move forward like they do in the 3-4-3, if we switch to a back four.

Absolutely. That's also been two big factors in the improvement. Skrtel has been much more comfortable operating in the middle spot of the back three and Can composure on the ball has markedly improved our build ups and transition.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 02:10:25 pm by Noclio »

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2015, 02:07:30 pm »
Will be interesting to see when Sturridge is fully fit is Brendan decides to sacrifice the solidity of a back 3 to get in another attacker in the side.
Im guessing he would sacrifice Lucas instead of Gerrard until his retirement. Only real option i see.
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Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2015, 02:13:22 pm »
What`s unique about our 343 shape is that we are forming this square shape in midfield with 2 CMs and 2 inside forwards between the lines. Usually good passing teams want to form a triangle shape in the middle of the park. Chile at WC and V.Gaal have triangles in midfield and two strikers upfront, BR on the other hand decided to flip the triangle and have two people between the lines. Possibly the idea could be to be effective at getting the ball into the final third.

Arsenal game is perfect demonstration of that as their single pivot had a true nightmare to deal with both Lallana and Coutinho and I think in that game we were getting the ball to final third with unprecedented ease in big games from us. I know that BR will probably flip the triangle again once he finds a suitable partner upfront for Sturridge but either way it`s proper tactical genius move if you ask me.

The key in all of this is of course is getting the likes of Lallana, Coutinho and Sterling close together on the pitch , encouraging them to interchange and create space with tight, sharp, short passing.
Yeah the box midfield does give you a number of options. With two high wing backs high as well, it makes it even harder for the opponent to control the space. If they narrow and the wingers pinch in to block the passing lanes to the front three, then there's space wide. If the wingers mark our wing backs on the flanks, then the passing lanes open up to our players between the lines. Similarly if one of their midfielders breaks the line to pressurise one of our pivots, then players like Coutinho may have space behind. If they don't then we can build play from deep and with Sakho and Can, we have a more effective way of constructing moves.

It's difficult for opposition teams to control all of these elements now. Bring Sturridge back in and then we will no longer be nullified by our own lack of killer instinct in front of goal either.
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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2015, 02:14:02 pm »
Im guessing he would sacrifice Lucas instead of Gerrard until his retirement. Only real option i see.

definitely not the only option, i just see Sterling dropping back and and then we pick 2 from Sterling, Coutinho, Lallana and Gerrard in those forward 3 positions.
there's also the option if we wanna be very offensive to play Sterling and Markovic as the wingbacks id like to see us try that at some point this season.

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2015, 02:20:38 pm »
Will be interesting to see when Sturridge is fully fit is Brendan decides to sacrifice the solidity of a back 3 to get in another attacker in the side.
Doubt it to be honest. I think Sterling will drop into one of the attacking midfielder roles with Coutinho. The only issue is what this does to players like Gerrard and Lallana. Gerrard may drop into midfield alongside Lucas or Henderson but I don't think that would be ideal by any means - he fits better on the right of the front three. Lallana I imagine will get less game time.

We may possibly see Sterling moved to wing back a bit more unfortunately. When you have that sort of selection 'problem' the more versatile players naturally get moved around.
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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2015, 02:24:24 pm »
Four competitions/injuries/suspensions/loss of form will keep them all busy I think.

It's nice we have genuine depth of quality.
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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2015, 02:24:50 pm »
Just imagine how BR felt after the Palace game. 12th game in the season, 1.17 ppg ( that`s like less than 50 pts when extrapolated ) Suarez was sold reluctantly, Alexis rejected us and chose to go to a direct rival, no other outstanding forward available on the market till the end onf the window, our most important player injured for 5 months, our new attacking signings failing to make any kind of contribution not even just to break monotony - total boycott, our best resident players were too young to take over responsibility. A complete and utter mess on both sides of the ball.

So what does he do then? He only just thinks of this new shape that almost nobody else in the division uses ( Hull`s and Utd`s are a bit different ) and manages to go from 1.17 ppg to 2.10 ppg over the last 10 games. I mean how many managers would look at our group of players after Palace game and feel confident they can make such an upturn without a single recognized striker. Incredible.

Last 10 games we matched Chelsea`s record, we are 4th in a league in that period, conceded only 9 goals which extrapolates to about 35 goals conceded in a season which is how much City conceded last season when they won it. We lost 52 goals from the team, made a mess in a striker department and with all the other numerous issues BR still managed to make an U-turn and make us play in a Top 4 form. I mean what can you say?
The improvement is stark and excellent, but the problems were partially of Rodgers' making as well, so he doesn't get the credit for the improvement without the stick for the decline in the first place. Persisted with Skrtel-Lovren, Gerrard deeper, and Balotelli far too long. Hamstrung by our striking situation but I guess no-one knows the truth if Balotelli was his signing or not.

We're going at 2.10 right now, we need 2.2 to reach 70 points. It's difficult but possible, with the return of Sturridge.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2015, 02:27:25 pm »
Doubt it to be honest. I think Sterling will drop into one of the attacking midfielder roles with Coutinho. The only issue is what this does to players like Gerrard and Lallana. Gerrard may drop into midfield alongside Lucas or Henderson but I don't think that would be ideal by any means - he fits better on the right of the front three. Lallana I imagine will get less game time.

We may possibly see Sterling moved to wing back a bit more unfortunately. When you have that sort of selection 'problem' the more versatile players naturally get moved around.

I'd prefer to see Sterling at wing back then Gerrard replacing Lucas or Hendo in midfield I think

We have a lot of options now but a lot of potential games so we're going to be needing those options. Hopefully shouldn't cause too many problems.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2015, 02:35:57 pm »
I'd prefer to see Sterling at wing back then Gerrard replacing Lucas or Hendo in midfield I think

We have a lot of options now but a lot of potential games so we're going to be needing those options. Hopefully shouldn't cause too many problems.
Yeah you're probably right. I'd probably rather Sterling at wing back than Gerrard in midfield as well. It's not ideal though - he doesn't get enough touches there and he's not as involved. It does also make it easier for teams to shut him out of the game there.

Mind you I don't particularly like Markovic at wing back either. However if you had them both, plus Coutinho, Gerrard and Sturridge in the middle, that gives a bit of a quandary for the opposition. Defend narrow and then you'll have to shift across quick when play is switched otherwise you might leave your winger or full back in a 1v1 situation against either of them. If you defend open, that gives more space to the players inside. It would be a risky move but five players who can all offer something significant in attack at their best, even if two of them were playing out of position, would be a pretty good way of hurting teams.
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Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2015, 02:38:45 pm »
Doubt it to be honest. I think Sterling will drop into one of the attacking midfielder roles with Coutinho. The only issue is what this does to players like Gerrard and Lallana. Gerrard may drop into midfield alongside Lucas or Henderson but I don't think that would be ideal by any means - he fits better on the right of the front three. Lallana I imagine will get less game time.

We may possibly see Sterling moved to wing back a bit more unfortunately. When you have that sort of selection 'problem' the more versatile players naturally get moved around.

I agree, Sterling dropping back is the most likely option. As you said, it would mean less game time for Lallana and Gerrard if Rodgers persist with 3-4-3. Breaking the Henderson-Lucas partnership should be avoided at all cost unless it's for rest/fatigue.

Returning to a back four gives the option to use four out of Coutinho, Lallana, Markovic, Sterling, Gerrard and Sturridge in advanced positions. Can could also be introduced in midfield in a rotation with Lucas and Henderson at some point. It could maintain the improvements in attack but like POP and SerbianScouser said, it may jeopardize the new found defensive solidity so Rodgers might not want to risk it.


Offline jepovic

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2015, 02:40:40 pm »
Just imagine how BR felt after the Palace game. 12th game in the season, 1.17 ppg ( that`s like less than 50 pts when extrapolated ) Suarez was sold reluctantly, Alexis rejected us and chose to go to a direct rival, no other outstanding forward available on the market till the end onf the window, our most important player injured for 5 months, our new attacking signings failing to make any kind of contribution not even just to break monotony - total boycott, our best resident players were too young to take over responsibility. A complete and utter mess on both sides of the ball.

So what does he do then? He only just thinks of this new shape that almost nobody else in the division uses ( Hull`s and Utd`s are a bit different ) and manages to go from 1.17 ppg to 2.10 ppg over the last 10 games. I mean how many managers would look at our group of players after Palace game and feel confident they can make such an upturn without a single recognized striker. Incredible.

Last 10 games we matched Chelsea`s record, we are 4th in a league in that period, conceded only 9 goals which extrapolates to about 35 goals conceded in a season which is how much City conceded last season when they won it. We lost 52 goals from the team, made a mess in a striker department and with all the other numerous issues BR still managed to make an U-turn and make us play in a Top 4 form. I mean what can you say?
I wonder how much is down to the 343 formation, and how much is down to getting Lucas in and Lovren & Johnson out, and Sterling on top. Impossible to say with so many changes in a very short time, but I think the old formation with Skrtel/Sakho + Lucas as DM would have made a huge improvement. 

The main problem for all 3-CB systems is that they tend to become 5-back systems in real life, ie too defensive. The wing backs are absolutely key to success, since a midfielder is sacrificed for a CB which has to be compensated by more active wing backs. I'm not surprised that Moreno likes his new role, but Markovic has been shockingly good. I had no idea he could defend so well. Obviously Rodgers has seen him in training, but it was still a very bold move to put a rookie winger in such a defensive position.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2015, 02:52:20 pm »
I wonder how much is down to the 343 formation, and how much is down to getting Lucas in and Lovren & Johnson out, and Sterling on top. Impossible to say with so many changes in a very short time, but I think the old formation with Skrtel/Sakho + Lucas as DM would have made a huge improvement. 

The main problem for all 3-CB systems is that they tend to become 5-back systems in real life, ie too defensive. The wing backs are absolutely key to success, since a midfielder is sacrificed for a CB which has to be compensated by more active wing backs. I'm not surprised that Moreno likes his new role, but Markovic has been shockingly good. I had no idea he could defend so well. Obviously Rodgers has seen him in training, but it was still a very bold move to put a rookie winger in such a defensive position.

A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

The formation change balances out the team's strengths and weaknesses better than the 4-2-3-1 did, which emphasised all of the weaknesses and almost none of the strengths. Putting Lucas into the team gave midfield security, but only because his role is more defined with Skrtel sweeping behind him, than if we played a back four and Lucas had to drop in and defend between the centrebacks. This formation shortens the zone that Lucas has to work in, thus preserving some energy, and giving him less work to do. It also removes the need for him to cover the fullbacks, because the outside defenders can do that without sacrificing two defenders in the middle. 3+Lucas allows the attacking part of the team to function more fluidly too, by allowing them the freedom to move forward knowing the back is secure. A Back Four with Lucas dropping in, means there's a large gap in front of the defence - a gap that other teams have been keen to exploit for a long time. Srktel sweeping also means Mignolet doesn't have to come off his line as much, or be the central point of a passing pattern to switch play. So the formation is at least as important as the personnel changes.
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Offline Tim

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2015, 02:53:58 pm »
The main problem for all 3-CB systems is that they tend to become 5-back systems in real life, ie too defensive.

That's why Sakho and Can are so important to the system. We have a back three when defending but both of them can be the extra man in midfield when we have the ball.
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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2015, 02:59:33 pm »
That's why Sakho and Can are so important to the system. We have a back three when defending but both of them can be the extra man in midfield when we have the ball.

Yeah they both bring it out pretty well. Added to that I like the flexibility in the wing backs. If we're being positive we can play Markovic there, if we want a bit more solidity then Manquillo is an option.

I would persist with it when Sturridge comes back, with Sterling and Coutinho behind. The only issue/question mark is in this formation I think Gerrard is best used as one of the attacking options too. Throw in Lallana and we're suddenly spoilt for choice there and will have some big names missing out. I think Lucas and Henderson is needed to make it work though.

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2015, 03:06:54 pm »
The majority of the goals we have conceded so far even at 4-2-3-1, in fact a lot of our goals this season  have come from the space just outside the penalty area Leicester's 2, Everton's equalizer, the immediate ones that spring to mind. If it happens often enough...and it has, it warrants taking a closer look at.

The other way we commonly concede is through opposition hitting us on the counter.

The remaining goals we have conceded, we can probably attribute to player errors which happen regardless of the formation

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2015, 03:45:42 pm »
I have huge reservations on whether our defensive solidity is possible in a back 4. I don`t see it.
Niether do I, at the moment. I think we need another type of centre half alongside Sakho, and that someone must be of the highest quality. For it to work properly, the goalkeeper must be able to pass the ball far better than Mignolet too, and take an active part in our build up.

Skrtel has been so much better in this formation, and his deep position means Mignolet doesn't have to get the ball that often. Since the switch, I noticed that the keeper almost always goes long, and there is little short passning between him and the defenders (that is my impression anyway). We see it instead between our three CBs and Lucas who is the one who usually drops deep. The ability of Sakho and Can make it possible in my opinion. Also Skrtel is given more time and space, and isn't as rushed as he can look in a back four. Nor is he forced wide, as he would be when the CBs split as they do in a four. Lucas, with his superb touch and calm in possession, is another factor why our build up is so much better now, and of course he also provides more protection than any of our other midfielders. So we reduce the weaknesses in Skrtel's and Mignolet's game, and play to the formers strenght in particular, while we're also able to field Markovic and Moreno high up the pitch. And we get our creative players like Lallana, Sterling, Gerrard and Coutinho close to eachother and central.

I wouldn't mind seeing the diamond again - most of all because it means we play Coutinho a bit deeper - but for it to work as well as the current formation, I believe we need at the very least one new goalkeeper and central defender, and probably another top quality forward. Maybe Sterling is that player soon - I really like the look of him in that striker role - but the other two we don't have right now, so I see no point in changing the formation. Sturridge coming back will only improve us further.

Offline leivapool

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2015, 03:48:39 pm »
A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

The formation change balances out the team's strengths and weaknesses better than the 4-2-3-1 did, which emphasised all of the weaknesses and almost none of the strengths. Putting Lucas into the team gave midfield security, but only because his role is more defined with Skrtel sweeping behind him, than if we played a back four and Lucas had to drop in and defend between the centrebacks. This formation shortens the zone that Lucas has to work in, thus preserving some energy, and giving him less work to do. It also removes the need for him to cover the fullbacks, because the outside defenders can do that without sacrificing two defenders in the middle. 3+Lucas allows the attacking part of the team to function more fluidly too, by allowing them the freedom to move forward knowing the back is secure. A Back Four with Lucas dropping in, means there's a large gap in front of the defence - a gap that other teams have been keen to exploit for a long time. Srktel sweeping also means Mignolet doesn't have to come off his line as much, or be the central point of a passing pattern to switch play. So the formation is at least as important as the personnel changes.

When did we last try a back four with a fully fit Lucas AND Henderson alongside him in CM,  as opposed to Allen or Gerrard?  I suspect, given the way the partnership they are starting to form is going and the way that they compliment each other, that  this may be a significantly smaller problem than in the past.
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Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2015, 03:50:45 pm »
A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

The formation change balances out the team's strengths and weaknesses better than the 4-2-3-1 did, which emphasised all of the weaknesses and almost none of the strengths. Putting Lucas into the team gave midfield security, but only because his role is more defined with Skrtel sweeping behind him, than if we played a back four and Lucas had to drop in and defend between the centrebacks. This formation shortens the zone that Lucas has to work in, thus preserving some energy, and giving him less work to do. It also removes the need for him to cover the fullbacks, because the outside defenders can do that without sacrificing two defenders in the middle. 3+Lucas allows the attacking part of the team to function more fluidly too, by allowing them the freedom to move forward knowing the back is secure. A Back Four with Lucas dropping in, means there's a large gap in front of the defence - a gap that other teams have been keen to exploit for a long time. Srktel sweeping also means Mignolet doesn't have to come off his line as much, or be the central point of a passing pattern to switch play. So the formation is at least as important as the personnel changes.

I agree it's been a combination of factors and the 3-4-3 has brought out the best of the players but the evidence does not corroborate your analyses of Lucas' contribution in protecting the back four. Since Ludogorets, we haven't conceded more than once whenever Lucas has been used without Gerrard in central midfield. It's a small sample size and there are many factors in the equation but it's been both in the 4-3-2-1 and the 3-4-3.

Also, the area of the pitch to cover when playing at the base of the midfield in a 4-3-3 is not bigger than what is required of the middle two in the 3-4-3. We just haven't seen Lucas play that role this season so it's impossible to say if it would work or not. Last season (December 2013 - early January 2014), when Lucas played that role, is evidence that it is a defensively sound option. 

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2015, 04:12:28 pm »
I agree it's been a combination of factors and the 3-4-3 has brought out the best of the players but the evidence does not corroborate your analyses of Lucas' contribution in protecting the back four. Since Ludogorets, we haven't conceded more than once whenever Lucas has been used without Gerrard in central midfield. It's a small sample size and there are many factors in the equation but it's been both in the 4-3-2-1 and the 3-4-3.

Also, the area of the pitch to cover when playing at the base of the midfield in a 4-3-3 is not bigger than what is required of the middle two in the 3-4-3. We just haven't seen Lucas play that role this season so it's impossible to say if it would work or not. Last season (December 2013 - early January 2014), when Lucas played that role, is evidence that it is a defensively sound option.

The area to cover is definitely bigger in a 4-3-3 when the DM is expected to drop in between the centrebacks, and cover the fullbacks when they push forward:




As opposed to a 3-4-3 with a box-to-box mid, where the outsides are covered by the outside defenders, and the central area is covered by a sweeper:



If we have two sitting defensive mids in front of a back four, with none of them dropping in between the central defenders, then there is less work. As soon as the central defender splits, and the defensive mid has to drop in, then he ceases to be a defensive mid, and becomes a central defender, especially if the other team attacks directly through the middle. The sweeper behind the defensive mid, as Skrtel more or less is, means that the central area is covered, so he only has to think of his own zone, and then maybe pushing forward occasionally. Less work, less space to cover, because he has cover behind him.
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Offline DeLeiva

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2015, 04:18:29 pm »

As opposed to a 3-4-3 with a box-to-box mid, where the outsides are covered by the outside defenders, and the central area is covered by a sweeper:


Mourinho made specific reference to the space behind our wing back and the 3 at the back.

With the specific threat of Hazard and Willian in those positions do you think we'll be much more compact
tomorrow night POP?  More likely to counter attack?

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2015, 04:21:32 pm »
Mourinho made specific reference to the space behind our wing back and the 3 at the back.

With the specific threat of Hazard and Willian in those positions do you think we'll be much more compact
tomorrow night POP?  More likely to counter attack?

I don't know, to be honest, but if it were me, I'd be taking the game to Chelsea early and blitzing them from the start, knowing that the possibility of sending Sturridge on late on if needed exists, and knowing that they couldn't cope with the pace of play at times in the first leg. If we show them too much respect, they'll probably go ahead early on themselves, and then it's an uphill battle.
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Offline Noclio

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2015, 04:26:32 pm »
snip

It depends on the roles given to the other two CMs and how much aggressively the FBs are asked to play in the 4-3-3 though doesn't it? For instance, the manager can ask one of the FBs to always stay back when the other pushes on to effectively make a back three in possession. Alternatively, he could also ask one of the CMs to act as a link and become the extra protection in front of the holding midfielder when he's dropped between the CBs. This provides the same shape as in the diagram of the 3-4-3 you posted.

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Re: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2015, 04:26:36 pm »
Mourinho made specific reference to the space behind our wing back and the 3 at the back.

With the specific threat of Hazard and Willian in those positions do you think we'll be much more compact
tomorrow night POP?  More likely to counter attack?

Just to add, too - people always talk about the "space behind the wingbacks being vulnerable" in a back 3, but there's only one ball on the pitch, and it can only be in one location at any one time. If you play with two aggressive fullbacks, as we do in a back four, that space exists either way. In a back three, you can slide the outside defender over as a temporary fullback when the ball goes there, and then slide the other two defenders across as two traditional central defenders, and then that gives time for the weak side wingback to drop in as a conventional fullback on the other side. So the shape remains the same. The problem is that you need outside defenders comfortable in those wide areas. Can and Sakho seem okay with it, as would Johnson, but I wouldn't be sure about Toure or Lovren, for example. The whole "back three is vulnerable out wide" was only really true when teams played with 2 man-markers and a sweeper, because the markers has to stay central leaving the entire outside to be patrolled by the wingbacks. If you caught one of them up-field, there would be lots of space in the corners to attack into, especially if the two centre forwards made inside runs to clear the space. With a zonal back three though, that space doesn't really exist so much, so it's as much of a danger as it would be if we played a back four.
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