Topic: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?

[bigbear]

I think it's quite high. I think that's part of the reason why Gerrard is leaving, because it's not just next season his minutes would be managed, but this season too. I think he'll play the Europa games, and the FA Cup, but in the league it's more likely he'll be used from the bench apart from the derby and a few other big games. I don't expect to see him start on Saturday. I think Rodgers will go with Coutinho and Lallana, with one of them coming off for Sturridge in the second half.

I think Gerrard is more suited to these 'lesser games' now.

Had he played against Bolton I think his finishing quality would have found a way to make the difference as he did away at Wimbledon. In those games he will still get big chances (like Leicester away) to find the net. In the harder games where we find it more difficult to break sides down and create that space for him to come from deep he has less impact and maybe a Lallana would be more effective.

Play Gerrard against all the rubbish and he will destroy them still, probably more than any of our other midfield options and let him be a last 25 minute player in the big games.

[SerbianScouser]

Funny thing even Courtois in his post-match interview mentions how stronger we are in a new system. Obviously something he picked up in a team meeting from Mourinho but still interesting that even our opponents see our improvement due to changes we made though in this case I really don`t think it was patronizing like it can be sometimes.

[bodhisattva]

Not sure if its been said but if we do persist with the 343 when studge comes back, where does Gerrard fit in? Coutinhos been on fire, sterling is our best player and Studge is our best striker.

Only place I can see Gerrard starting is in CM and I think that'll fail miserably, its no surprise we looked a lot more shakey yesterday when Gerrard went into the middle with Hendo moving to RWB.

we've also got the option of playing Sterling as a wing back, and Gerrard in one of the front 2 positions. I agree though he shouldn't be part of the midfield 2 anymore.

[killer-heels]

Funny thing even Courtois in his post-match interview mentions how stronger we are in a new system. Obviously something he picked up in a team meeting from Mourinho but still interesting that even our opponents see our improvement due to changes we made though in this case I really don`t think it was patronizing like it can be sometimes.

That complement means fuck all though.

[DanA]

we've also got the option of playing Sterling as a wing back, and Gerrard in one of the front 2 positions. I agree though he shouldn't be part of the midfield 2 anymore.

Think we might see that on occasion. Sterling RWB, Gerrard AM next to Coutinho or Lallana and Markovic LWB.  That should batter weak teams but against stronger ones I'd drop Gerrard in favour of Sterling at AM with Markovic/Moreno as wingbacks

[GrkStav]

We need more DM/CB types to populate a mixed position with spares. Also winger/FB types for the same. Every window (who am I kidding, I mean every summer), once we've filled the most urgent needs, we should look to recruit in these 2 areas.

Preach, brother Sangria, preach!

[Upinsmoke]

I still don't think it's a long term plan this formation. Markovic has done well in this position but he will always be a shadow of the potential he has if he stays at wing back. Also what other position accommodates him in this system? I don't wanna see can in this position forever either. It certainly benefits Skrtel who's done really well and also Sakho. If we want origi to feature alongside Sturridge next season, how do we do that in this system?

[bravarado7]

This system is here to stay. Players playing in positions that make them look better than they were a couple of months ago is a proof enough. Never before we were so assured at the back under Rogders. Add a goal-scoring striker and we will start looking even more assured about our play. So many mistakes seem to be eliminated from our play.

There is no more direct running at our midfield. That's something very good to see compared to the past couple of seasons when every tom dick and harry midfielder would pick up the ball and run straight at our midfield. We were done in by so many counter attacks. Putting Lucas there obviously has changed things for the better but having Skrtel as the sweeper is the master stroke. The benefit of having 2 ball playing defenders in your back 3 can also be seen. We were aimlessly passing around at the back in the beginning of the season but now we have 2 players who can through the opposition midfield and more importantly be brave on the ball.

We know our attack has been good under Rodgers but midfield and defense definitely seem to be heading in the right direction , thanks to the new system.

[GrkStav]

I still don't think it's a long term plan this formation. Markovic has done well in this position but he will always be a shadow of the potential he has if he stays at wing back. Also what other position accommodates him in this system? I don't wanna see can in this position forever either. It certainly benefits Skrtel who's done really well and also Sakho. If we want origi to feature alongside Sturridge next season, how do we do that in this system?

Markovic can play RWB, LWB, RAM and LAM (AM = Advanced Midfielder).

[bravarado7]

I still don't think it's a long term plan this formation. Markovic has done well in this position but he will always be a shadow of the potential he has if he stays at wing back. Also what other position accommodates him in this system? I don't wanna see can in this position forever either. It certainly benefits Skrtel who's done really well and also Sakho. If we want origi to feature alongside Sturridge next season, how do we do that in this system?

If we want 2 strikers , it requires a little of compromise on some players. First, we will have to make it a 2-1 triangle at the top with Coutinho being the one. Then what about Raheem and Lallana ? Raheem , due to his versatility can be used in behind the strikers, on the wings or as one of the 2 strikers. Lallana can be used in place of Coutinho depending on the form. That is in case if we want 2 strikers .

The best part about this team is we can play so many different formations (apart from 4-2-3-1 with the current midfield we have ) depending on the situation. Just need a proper goal scoring striker , apart from Sturridge for obvious reasons.

[bravarado7]

Markovic can play RWB, LWB, RAM and LAM (AM = Advanced Midfielder).

Agreed. Same applies to Sterling . In fact he can go one step further and be a striker too in our formation.

Lots and lots of possibilities .

[GrkStav]

If we want 2 strikers , it requires a little of compromise on some players. First, we will have to make it a 2-1 triangle at the top with Coutinho being the one. Then what about Raheem and Lallana ? Raheem , due to his versatility can be used in behind the strikers, on the wings or as one of the 2 strikers. Lallana can be used in place of Coutinho depending on the form. That is in case if we want 2 strikers .

The best part about this team is we can play so many different formations (apart from 4-2-3-1 with the current midfield we have ) depending on the situation. Just need a proper goal scoring striker , apart from Sturridge for obvious reasons.

Again, though, why can't we play 4231 with our current personnel?

[fefs]

Again, though, why can't we play 4231 with our current personnel?

Because of our fullbacks.
Maybe if Flanagan was fit it would work, but I think Moreno would still be too attacking

[bravarado7]

Again, though, why can't we play 4231 with our current personnel?

Simply because the personnel for the formation - Full backs and Midfield in particular - are not there. I think this has been done to death previously and in fact is that not what we played in the first few months? Where did that take us ?

[Cid]

In addressing the original question posed by the topic.. I think we should stick with it.

The 3-4-3 has given us a defensive solidity that we've lacked under Rodgers.  It brings the best out of our defensive options as Skrtel always drops deep naturally.  In a 4 man defensive line this is a massive problem as it breaks our offside line when the other players step up, but at the centre of a 3 his natural drop is allowing him to excel in a covering role.

This system also allows us to fit our attacking talent in better.  We have markovic and sterling.. Two good wingers who are not shy of tracking back.  With lallana, Gerrard and Coutinho not all of these players would ordinarily be playing most weeks.  Yet it also allows us to use the slightly more defensive Manquillo, Enrique and Moreno when we think a team will be pushing up onto us.  The nature of the wb/cb combo forces opposition players to come deeper if they wish to press and opens them up to the counter more effectively too.

I honestly think we are one top quality striker away from being a superb side again.  We lack a finisher, someone who will naturally get on the end of plays and put the ball in the net.  Ironically I'm not entirely sure even Sturridge is the perfect option for that.  Someone like Costa would be preferable.. A poacher who gets onto balls and is in the right place at the right time.  Sturridge's natural habit to drift wide in play may actually limit his effectiveness in the role and I'm not 100% sure his body can withstand being kicked around by two cbs every game.

[L666KOP]

Again, though, why can't we play 4231 with our current personnel?

We can.

There's a glaring reason why the 4231 failed.

Because we insisted on playing Gerrard, and ignored Lucas.

Although I do think Lucas would struggle as a genuine DM in the '2' against quick transitions. You need a Masch for that.

Like PoP alludes to earlier, I think if we want to know what next seasons Liverpool looks like we keep an eye on games that don't involve Stevie.
 

[catinthebag]

If we want 2 strikers , it requires a little of compromise on some players. First, we will have to make it a 2-1 triangle at the top with Coutinho being the one. Then what about Raheem and Lallana ? Raheem , due to his versatility can be used in behind the strikers, on the wings or as one of the 2 strikers. Lallana can be used in place of Coutinho depending on the form. That is in case if we want 2 strikers .

Coutinho has been a different player this season. He seems to have brought his game up a notch after that spell of average performances at the start of the season. However, whenever we play him alone behind the strikers, he is often targeted by opposing teams and bullied. I think this current system takes the pressure off him and allows him the freedom to find space to do damage. Having someone alongside also gives him an option to pass sideways to relieve pressure or play two kinds of passes forward (through the defensive line to the striker or between the lines to a partner running from deep.

I think he has benefited from this system and we may see a period of adjustment again if we switch to two strikers.

Btw, playing with Suarez means he gets a mix of both last season because Suarez works so hard and either plays off the shoulder or drops deep before running at the defence off the ball. I can't think of many strikers out there who offer this.

[bodhisattva]

Simply because the personnel for the formation - Full backs and Midfield in particular - are not there. I think this has been done to death previously and in fact is that not what we played in the first few months? Where did that take us ?

I don't think its just that, it also creates the problems at CB with Skrtel liking to drop off and the others wanting to be more pro active. In the 3 with Skrtel as the sweeper it means he can play his natural game while the outside 2 CBs can be more aggressive its perfect for the personnel we have.

[Roger Federer]

We can.

There's a glaring reason why the 4231 failed.

Because we insisted on playing Gerrard, and ignored Lucas.

That alone isn't the only reason. Our build up suffers when we use a back four. Now we pass the ball between our 3 CBs, and Skrtel gets to stay deep in the middle of the pitch where he has more time on the ball and isn't rushed. Mignolet is only there to clear the ball long, he hardly ever takes part in our build up now. But in a back four, Skrtel is forced wide (as the CBs split to make a triangle with the keeper) and Mignolet sees far more of the ball - effectively taking Skrtel's place in the build up phase. The obvious advantage is that we have 11 players that are used in possession - and can make room for one midfielder or forward instead of a CB - but seeing as niether Skrtel nor Mignolet is good enough in these situations, we only invite pressure and go long too often anyway. With Can and Sakho, and Skrtel deep and central, we look far more composed at the back and can starts attack better.

Not to mention that from a defensive point of view, Skrtel seems to excel in this role (as bodhisattva mentions above). I wouldn't play a back four on a regular basis again, until we have another goalkeeper comfortable with the ball, and another type of defender instead of Skrtel, next to Sakho.

[L666KOP]

That alone isn't the only reason. Our build up suffers when we use a back four. Now we pass the ball between our 3 CBs, and Skrtel gets to stay deep in the middle of the pitch where he has more time on the ball and isn't rushed. Mignolet is only there to clear the ball long, he hardly ever takes part in our build up now. But in a back four, Skrtel is forced wide (as the CBs split to make a triangle with the keeper) and Mignolet sees far more of the ball - effectively taking Skrtel's place in the build up phase. The obvious advantage is that we have 11 players that are used in possession - and can make room for one a mdifielder or forward instead of a CB - but seeing as niether Skrtel nor Mignolet is good enough in these situations, we only invite pressure and go long too often anyway. With Can and Sakho, and Skrtel deep and central, we look far more composed at the back and can starts attack better.

Not to mention that from a defensive point of view, Skrtel seems to excel in this role (as bodhisattva mentions above). I wouldn't play a back four on a regular basis again, until we have another goalkeeper comfortable with the ball, and another type of defender instead of Skrtel, next to Sakho.

You've very concisely posted what I've posted throughout this thread.
 
There are 'other' reasons like you say, but our upturn coincided with Gerrard no longer being shoehorned into the base of the midfield. This allowed everything you say to happen. But most importantly, by removing Stevie it's allowed more players to play in their natural positions, and concentrate on their natural jobs.
Mignolet can be a 'goalkeeper' again.
Skrtel can be a 'defender' again, even though he's taken on a controller role he's comfortable as last man.
Lucas can patrol the midfield.
Sakho can play on the front foot.
Moreno can get forward.
Henderson gets to play in the middle.

That's 6 players that benefit from the 343 directly. And are able to revert to their 'instincts' rather than having to 'think' about positioning/play/covering.

What's not to like.

[killer-heels]

The problem with the 3-4-3 though is again, the goals. Coutinho benefits from it because he plays in a 2 behind the striker. If it was the 1 then he would be targetted a whole lot more in my opinion.

But then if they dont score enough we have to start another striker and really Coutinho aint getting ahead of Sterling in the 1 behind the front 2.

[L666KOP]

The problem with the 3-4-3 though is again, the goals. Coutinho benefits from it because he plays in a 2 behind the striker. If it was the 1 then he would be targetted a whole lot more in my opinion.

But then if they dont score enough we have to start another striker and really Coutinho aint getting ahead of Sterling in the 1 behind the front 2.

I think when Daniel comes back it will be a 2 behind 1.

                               

[rowan_d]

The problem with the 3-4-3 though is again, the goals. Coutinho benefits from it because he plays in a 2 behind the striker. If it was the 1 then he would be targetted a whole lot more in my opinion.

But then if they dont score enough we have to start another striker and really Coutinho aint getting ahead of Sterling in the 1 behind the front 2.

I'd like Sterling and Coutinho behind Sturridge, even if it removes Gerrard and Lallana from the first 11. The personnel is at fault for our current ack of goals rather than the system imo, and that won't be fixed by changing formations again.

[killer-heels]

But going forward if we sign another good striker what happens then?

[fewmin' bedwetter]

With Sturridge back, I think it will come down to whether or not we're prepared to ask Raheem to play as a wing-back.

That's what it will be if we want to play four out of Sterling, Sturridge, Coutinho, Lallana and Gerrard.

Whereas with 4-2-3-1 you obviously have a front four, and with 4-3-3, you would have either Gerrard or Coutinho in attacking mid plus the other three.

[Sangria]

But going forward if we sign another good striker what happens then?

Celebrate, as we'll finally find a replacement for Sterling, who will be retiring soon. We'll know longer have to wax nostalgic about about the likes of Sturridge, who retired 10 years ago from persistent injuries.

[Roger Federer]

You've very concisely posted what I've posted throughout this thread.
 

I should've read through it more carefully! Perhaps would've saved me the trouble of writing that post, as we seem to agree on this.

But going forward if we sign another good striker what happens then?

Use Sterling as wingback in some games? It's a bit of a waste of his talent, but probably worth it if we have another 15+ goalscorer up front.

If we buy another goalkeeper (as we must imo), and defender (or possibly trust Can in the centre, although that is quite risky at this stage) along with the new striker, we could revert to a diamond as well. Coutinho, Sterling, Sturridge and 'Striker' all fit into that formation.

[rowan_d]

But going forward if we sign another good striker what happens then?

We deal with that nice problem if and when it happens. None of the proper strikers other than Sturridge deserve to be on the pitch based on their performances this season, so they can fuck off if the bench isn't good enough

[PhaseOfPlay]

But going forward if we sign another good striker what happens then?

Play 3-4-1-2. Or play the striker in form. When they stop scoring for two games in a row, the next one steps in.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The problem with the 3-4-3 though is again, the goals. Coutinho benefits from it because he plays in a 2 behind the striker. If it was the 1 then he would be targetted a whole lot more in my opinion.

But then if they dont score enough we have to start another striker and really Coutinho aint getting ahead of Sterling in the 1 behind the front 2.

Formations don't add or take goals away from teams. We're going through a scoring drought because of player issues, not formation ones. However, formations and how you play them do have a large impact on your defensive game. And we haven't looked as defensively secure as we have any time we've played a 3-back system, over the long term. Given the consistent and correct criticism of our defending under Rodgers, I think it is important for him and everyone to recognise just how strong we look when we play a back three with Skrtel central and a true stopper in front. It also gets the best out of Can and Sakho. Changing that to accommodate more forwards in the hope it will get more goals would be risky, in my opinion. It could see a backslide that could destroy whatever confidence has been built up.

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

With Sturridge back, I think it will come down to whether or not we're prepared to ask Raheem to play as a wing-back.

I think Sterling would be wasted in that role.  He is our biggest threat along with Sturridge and needs to be in the final third and central.  Not tracking back doing lots of defending which is needed in the wing back role.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

I've said before that that I think no matter how much we arrange this team, goals will be an issue, and you can flip the attacking triangle to play 2 strikers and 1 attacking mid. Sterling with Sturridge and Balotelli ahead. Or Sterling and Coutinho with Sturridge ahead. Once Sturridge is back, Sterling will go back to attacking mid, and we could either try Balotelli and Sturridge again or carry on playing two attacking mids.

I'd like to see Balotelli and Sturridge given a run up front together, but that would mean one attacking mid place for Sterling and Coutinho. That might see Sterling moved to wing back but I genuinely hate seeing him in that role, he is so wasted there. I'd rather see Coutinho moved to centre mid, but I don't think thats a good idea either. I want to see Balotelli and Sturridge up front together, but in this formation that would mean dropping one of Coutinho and Sterling or moving Sterling to wing back.

Anyway, goals are a real issue but I don't think its the formation, and I wouldn't want to go back to a 4-1-2-1-2 to test that theory out.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think Sterling would be wasted in that role.  He is our biggest threat along with Sturridge and needs to be in the final third and central.  Not tracking back doing lots of defending which is needed in the wing back role.

He's only scored 4 goals though. That's 4 in 22 games. That's not the scoring rate of a striker. Once Sturridge is fit to start, he should be the lone forward. If Sterling goes to wingback, it wouldn't dampen his game, because he isn't scoring enough to justify playing up top. And we've seen recently that he isn't getting his head up enough to assist anyone else to score. So right now, wingback would be the perfect position to take advantage of his skills and speed without the burden of expectation of scoring or creating. Once he gets his head together again, then we could start putting him into the central positions, especially if we don't bring in another forward.

[007.lankyguy]

I've said before that that I think no matter how much we arrange this team, goals will be an issue, and you can flip the attacking triangle to play 2 strikers and 1 attacking mid. Sterling with Sturridge and Balotelli ahead. Or Sterling and Coutinho with Sturridge ahead. Once Sturridge is back, Sterling will go back to attacking mid, and we could either try Balotelli and Sturridge again or carry on playing two attacking mids.

I'd like to see Balotelli and Sturridge given a run up front together, but that would mean one attacking mid place for Sterling and Coutinho. That might see Sterling moved to wing back but I genuinely hate seeing him in that role, he is so wasted there. I'd rather see Coutinho moved to centre mid, but I don't think thats a good idea either. I want to see Balotelli and Sturridge up front together, but in this formation that would mean dropping one of Coutinho and Sterling or moving Sterling to wing back.

Anyway, goals are a real issue but I don't think its the formation, and I wouldn't want to go back to a 4-1-2-1-2 to test that theory out.

I think Sterling's going to be playing wing back a bit more than he has been doing when Sturridge comes back. I can't see Rodgers wanting to move away from a back three for a while and if Balotelli was to get a chance up front with Sturridge then either Sterling goes to wing back, or you drop either him or Coutinho, or you switch to a 4-3-1-2 with Sterling at the tip and Coutinho as one of the central midfielders. As I've said, I don't see the latter happening.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

I think Sterling's going to be playing wing back a bit more than he has been doing when Sturridge comes back. I can't see Rodgers wanting to move away from a back three for a while and if Balotelli was to get a chance up front with Sturridge then either Sterling goes to wing back, or you drop either him or Coutinho, or you switch to a 4-3-1-2 with Sterling at the tip and Coutinho as one of the central midfielders. As I've said, I don't see the latter happening.

[bodhisattva]

He's only scored 4 goals though. That's 4 in 22 games. That's not the scoring rate of a striker. Once Sturridge is fit to start, he should be the lone forward. If Sterling goes to wingback, it wouldn't dampen his game, because he isn't scoring enough to justify playing up top. And we've seen recently that he isn't getting his head up enough to assist anyone else to score. So right now, wingback would be the perfect position to take advantage of his skills and speed without the burden of expectation of scoring or creating. Once he gets his head together again, then we could start putting him into the central positions, especially if we don't bring in another forward.

Yeah i don't see it as a waste at all, the wide areas are often the parts of the pitch where the players have the most space if you have real quality in those areas it can be very productive, it would also take some of the pressure off the 2 behind the forward as teams would probably try and pay special attention to someone like Sterling. As you say its not as if he's been prolific at the moment, his best moment against Chelsea was getting to the bye line and putting in a great cross which Henderson should have scored from he would also be very difficult to mark using his pace when the ball is on the opposite side of the field.

Sterling will always contribute to the team wherever he's played because he's that good a player.

[bodhisattva]

I've said before that that I think no matter how much we arrange this team, goals will be an issue, and you can flip the attacking triangle to play 2 strikers and 1 attacking mid. Sterling with Sturridge and Balotelli ahead. Or Sterling and Coutinho with Sturridge ahead. Once Sturridge is back, Sterling will go back to attacking mid, and we could either try Balotelli and Sturridge again or carry on playing two attacking mids.

I'd like to see Balotelli and Sturridge given a run up front together, but that would mean one attacking mid place for Sterling and Coutinho. That might see Sterling moved to wing back but I genuinely hate seeing him in that role, he is so wasted there. I'd rather see Coutinho moved to centre mid, but I don't think thats a good idea either. I want to see Balotelli and Sturridge up front together, but in this formation that would mean dropping one of Coutinho and Sterling or moving Sterling to wing back.

Anyway, goals are a real issue but I don't think its the formation, and I wouldn't want to go back to a 4-1-2-1-2 to test that theory out.

Have we had a problem creating chances in this formation?? i don't think so. Against Bolton and both games against Chelsea we created plenty of good opportunities, if we weren't creating then you might have a point but we are and its also a good assumption to make that someone like Coutinho becomes even more effective with someone like Sturridge making those runs in behind.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

Have we had a problem creating chances in this formation?? i don't think so. Against Bolton and both games against Chelsea we created plenty of good opportunities, if we weren't creating then you might have a point but we are and its also a good assumption to make that someone like Coutinho becomes even more effective with someone like Sturridge making those runs in behind.

I was talking about the squad, not the tactical set-up of the team, because we create plenty of chancers, but we don't have anyone (apart from Sturridge) who we can rely upon to sticky the bally in the netty.

[bodhisattva]

I was talking about the squad, not the tactical set-up of the team, because we create plenty of chancers, but we don't have anyone (apart from Sturridge) who we can rely upon to sticky the bally in the netty.

ok thats true, i think Lallana with a clearer run of games can become a consistent scorer for us and we all can see the potential that Sterling and Coutinho have they just really need to step it up and get to that next level in terms of converting chances. But yeah i think we needed another proven goalscorer in the summer to take some of the pressure off Sturridge.

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

He's only scored 4 goals though. That's 4 in 22 games. That's not the scoring rate of a striker. Once Sturridge is fit to start, he should be the lone forward. If Sterling goes to wingback, it wouldn't dampen his game, because he isn't scoring enough to justify playing up top. And we've seen recently that he isn't getting his head up enough to assist anyone else to score. So right now, wingback would be the perfect position to take advantage of his skills and speed without the burden of expectation of scoring or creating. Once he gets his head together again, then we could start putting him into the central positions, especially if we don't bring in another forward.

I think he'd be great as a wing back.

But I don't really want to see him tracking back stopping the opposition.  Rather he was in the other teams half giving them problems to think about.  Yes he has only scored 4 goals, but who has scored a lot for us?  No one else has been prolific.  We shouldn't just judge him on his goals either.