Topic: Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yes we should persist with the formation.

Hopefully though we don't discard the 4-1-2-1-2 formation.

I am not sure quite how a diamond shaped midfield would work in a 3-4-3 though.

We practically play a diamond midfield anyway. Lucas sits, Henderson pushes up, Lallana and Coutinho move around Sterling. 3-1-2-1-3. The diamond is just wider in the 3-4-2-1 than it is in the 4-3-1-2:

[Noclio]

snip

Is it really? My impression (and the heat maps seem to confirm it) is that Henderson shares the workload pretty evenly with Lucas. He does get a bit more forward than Lucas but he is generally square or behind the wingbacks in most phases which makes the shape more of a flat four in the middle line.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Is it really? My impression (and the heat maps seem to confirm it) is that Henderson shares the workload pretty evenly with Lucas. He does get a bit more forward than Lucas but he is generally square or behind the wingbacks in most phases which makes the shape more of a flat four in the middle line.

Its not a definite diamond the way Van Gaal had it with Ajax with Blind and Litmanen at the points. But Henderson gets more forward than Lucas in general. Lucas is the defensive player, Henderson the box to box one. That doesn't mean they position themselves diametrically opposite to each other, it just means that Lucas will more than likely sit, and Henderson will more than likely go, and when Lucas goes, Henderson will drop off and sit instead. In other words, we're not playing a strict holding two who both sit in. One sits, one goes, creating the diamond in the attacking phase of play.

[bigbear]

Its not a definite diamond the way Van Gaal had it with Ajax with Blind and Litmanen at the points. But Henderson gets more forward than Lucas in general. Lucas is the defensive player, Henderson the box to box one. That doesn't mean they position themselves diametrically opposite to each other, it just means that Lucas will more than likely sit, and Henderson will more than likely go, and when Lucas goes, Henderson will drop off and sit instead. In other words, we're not playing a strict holding two who both sit in. One sits, one goes, creating the diamond in the attacking phase of play.

Henderson will go more but I see the 4 (Hend,Lucas,Cout,Lallana) as more of a square formation with the wide boys outside them and Raheem loosely in between.

[Noclio]

Its not a definite diamond the way Van Gaal had it with Ajax with Blind and Litmanen at the points. But Henderson gets more forward than Lucas in general. Lucas is the defensive player, Henderson the box to box one. That doesn't mean they position themselves diametrically opposite to each other, it just means that Lucas will more than likely sit, and Henderson will more than likely go, and when Lucas goes, Henderson will drop off and sit instead. In other words, we're not playing a strict holding two who both sit in. One sits, one goes, creating the diamond in the attacking phase of play.

Agreed. What I was referring to is more akin to Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 which operates with a dedicated #10. The wingbacks are tucked inside with the holding midfielder and the front three operates with two wide forward instead of two central AMs.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Agreed. What I was referring to is more akin to Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 which operates with a dedicated #10. The wingbacks are tucked inside with the holding midfielder and the front three operates with two wide forward instead of two central AMs.

I would really love if we played that way lol.

[Noclio]

I would really love if we played that way lol.

 

One of my favorite formation also. It could be implemented with the personnel we have too.

edit:

Imagine:

Can------Skrtel------Sakho

Henderson-Lucas-Markovic

--------Coutinho------------

Lallana--Sturridge--Sterling

That would pack a lot of punch. Not sure about the defense though but there are lots of permutation possible with the players we have.

[SerbianScouser]

One of my favorite formation also. It could be implemented with the personnel we have too.

3-diamond-3:

Reiziger       - Can
Blind           - Skrtel
F. de Boer   - Sakho
Rijkaard      - Lucas
Seedorf       - Henderson
Davids        - ?
Litmanen    - Coutinho
Finidi          - Markovic
Overmars   - Sterling
Kluivert      - Sturridge

[Noclio]

Reiziger       - Can
Blind           - Skrtel
F. de Boer   - Sakho
Rijkaard      - Lucas
Seedorf       - Henderson
Davids        - ?
Litmanen    - Coutinho
Finidi          - Markovic
Overmars   - Sterling
Kluivert      - Sturridge

Yeah, the third midfield spot is a bit of a problem. I put Markovic there but Allen could also be an option even if he's not flavor of the month at the moment. Not a patch on Seedorf and Davids though!

[McrRed]

What excites me about our implementation of the 3-4-3 is the use of the vertical pass.
We have some very good exponents of the quick 30yd pass: Lucas and Sakho being the principals. This gives us a very unsterile ability to transition quickly before teams organise from a loose press.
Add to that Can and Markovic's ability to bring the ball upfield (and Sakho's no slouch!) makes it tough for teams to know whether to stick or twist.

This all feeds into the mother of combine harvesters up front with sterling/ Sturridge /Coutinho / Lallana  circulating and offering threat.
In short, yes, let's persist.

[Roger Federer]

Lallana could probably play as a forward in that 3-4-1-2, and would probably do a good job too, especially if the other forward makes runs off of him. Given a free role up front, Lallana could probably do a decent job (as a back up forward, not as a regular starting one, I hasten to add!)

Having said that, every manager has to balance the needs of the team, the tactical situation of the game, and the needs of the players, so sometimes players will have to sit out for longer periods than they'd like to, if the formation doesn't need their particular skills.

I could see that working, but if one forward is out, I think it's more likely that we'd just revert to a 2-1, as we play now. And if we insist on having two forwards, wouldn't Sterling be a better option for the role you describe - with Lallana/Coutinho deeper? Seeing as he plays further forward now in Sturridge absence already.

[Roger Federer]

3-diamond-3:

Reiziger       - Can
Blind           - Skrtel
F. de Boer   - Sakho
Rijkaard      - Lucas
Seedorf       - Henderson
Davids        - ?
Litmanen    - Coutinho
Finidi          - Markovic
Overmars   - Sterling
Kluivert      - Sturridge

Comparing with the players we have - Henderson as Davids, Coutinho as Seedorf and Lallana as Litmanen seems the most similar to me.

[bigbear]

I could see that working, but if one forward is out, I think it's more likely that we'd just revert to a 2-1, as we play now. And if we insist on having two forwards, wouldn't Sterling be a better option for the role you describe - with Lallana/Coutinho deeper? Seeing as he plays further forward now in Sturridge absence already.

I'd like to see Sterling get after Ivanovic tonight and drift in between he and Zouma positionally.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I could see that working, but if one forward is out, I think it's more likely that we'd just revert to a 2-1, as we play now. And if we insist on having two forwards, wouldn't Sterling be a better option for the role you describe - with Lallana/Coutinho deeper? Seeing as he plays further forward now in Sturridge absence already.

I'm more talking about how we would fit Lallana in if we played a 3-4-1-2, rather than saying we SHOULD play Lallana as a forward in a 3-4-1-2. Although given Lallana gets subbed off or on a lot, and Coutinho tires relatively easily, One starting and one coming on as a "set" sub would certainly fix both issues in any case

[Roger Federer]

I'm more talking about how we would fit Lallana in if we played a 3-4-1-2, rather than saying we SHOULD play Lallana as a forward in a 3-4-1-2. Although given Lallana gets subbed off or on a lot, and Coutinho tires relatively easily, One starting and one coming on as a "set" sub would certainly fix both issues in any case

Fair enough. It's clear we've got plenty of options anyway. Add another forward that can play how Rodgers wants, and we have both the right quality and depth in our attacking positions, in any formation we could think of really.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Has to be noted that this formation has kept the current best team in the country, with the league's top scorer and one of the best young players in Europe, to 1 penalty and 1 free kick over two games.

We really need to keep this formation for this group of players. And keep Can as a defender. He's immense. Skrtel looks great as a pseudo-sweeper too.

[saoirse08]

Should Liverpool Persist With The 3-4-3 Formation?

Can't think of any sane reason to change it at the moment.

And:

Has to be noted that this formation has kept the current best team in the country, with the league's top scorer and one of the best young players in Europe, to 1 penalty and 1 free kick over two games.

We really need to keep this formation for this group of players. And keep Can as a defender. He's immense. Skrtel looks great as a pseudo-sweeper too.

[bodhisattva]

Has to be noted that this formation has kept the current best team in the country, with the league's top scorer and one of the best young players in Europe, to 1 penalty and 1 free kick over two games.

We really need to keep this formation for this group of players. And keep Can as a defender. He's immense. Skrtel looks great as a pseudo-sweeper too.

Just what i was thinking, Mourinho talked a lot after the first game about how the formation gave his team a lot of space and they didn't exploit it well, at the time i thought that was him playing mind games and again they have been unable to create too many chances until we tired in extra time.

After the match he was very complimentary about Brendan and how he specifically mentioned the change in formation.

The goalkeeper is looking a lot more confident, im not sure if thats as a result of the formation but i do think its helped and the back 3 have been immense. Skrtel is ideal for that sweeper role and in Can and Sakho we have 2 mobile defenders that can also play.

There is a little flexibility in the wing back positions whereby we can play out and out wingers there if we wanted to be a bit more adventerous at some point id like to see Sterling and Markovic as the wingbacks with Coutinho and Gerrard (or Lallana) behind Sturridge.

[iVapor]

Has to be noted that this formation has kept the current best team in the country, with the league's top scorer and one of the best young players in Europe, to 1 penalty and 1 free kick over two games.

We really need to keep this formation for this group of players. And keep Can as a defender. He's immense. Skrtel looks great as a pseudo-sweeper too.

Came on to post pretty much the same.

First time under Rodgers too where we have looked solid at the back without leaking goals. We haven't even had that manic spell where we just combust for ages too. People could say after the first game wasn't a real test as Chelsea sat back, but at Stamford bridge they threw everything at us and couldn't score. It was only for a lapse of concentration on the free kick which had nothing to do with the formation.

Rodgers' clearly knows he is onto something too as the youth teams are using this formation now too.

[Jay012345]

When Sturridge is back, I hope we drop back to a 4 with 2 holding and 3 behind him.

[bodhisattva]

When Sturridge is back, I hope we drop back to a 4 with 2 holding and 3 behind him.

why would you change something thats had so many positive effects in many different areas??
We've looked a lot more solid defensively and we have also looked much harder to play against and more of a fluid attacking team.

I think some people's reservations have been due to the lack of goals but its not as if the team isn't creating chances we just aren't taking them.
There's going to be a lot of pressure on Sturridge to hit the ground running but he is the one natural goalscorer we have in the squad and he's been
badly missed.

[iVapor]

why would you change something thats had so many positive effects in many different areas??
We've looked a lot more solid defensively and we have also looked much harder to play against and more of a fluid attacking team.

I think some people's reservations have been due to the lack of goals but its not as if the team isn't creating chances we just aren't taking them.
There's going to be a lot of pressure on Sturridge to hit the ground running but he is the one natural goalscorer we have in the squad and he's been
badly missed.

Think he was taking the piss

[SerbianScouser]

As we`ve seen yesterday the formation suffers as soon we change the ideal choices for respective positions for whatever reasons. As soon as Hendo was moved to RWB our midfield started suffering and we lost the foothold in the game somewhat. It has a lot to do with Lucas` and Gerrard`s fitness of course.

Sakho`s injury is massive, massive blow as Johnson looks completely lost out there not knowing whether he`s a fullback or CB, hopefully he`ll find his feet there as it looks Sakho with his back injury will be out for a while.

This new found defensive solidity has everything to do with 343 as it brings the best out of our players, extreme cynics like to say Rodgers stumbled upon it but what they neglect is that Rodgers from the very first day is constantly tinkering and experiment with personnel and shapes. Sometimes it blows in our face but sometimes it makes us look like an elite , competitive team like last night. 442 diamond did wonders for us last season and the same thing is happening this time around with this new shape.

See absolutely no reason why shouldn`t keep on insisting on using it and perfecting it in the process.

[jepovic]

My worry is the wing backs (of course our main problem is the lack of a striker, but no system can hide that). Both Markovic and Moreno looked quite lost at times yesterday, and when they got tired we lost a lot of punch in our attacks. 90 min as a wing back in this system is very tough, and that is a key disadvantage of the setup. But we were strong in the box. Even on set pieces we defended well until Sakho left. Johnson as CB is just poor imo.

With a proper striker we would have beaten Chelsea, no doubt.

[PhaseOfPlay]

As we`ve seen yesterday the formation suffers as soon we change the ideal choices for respective positions for whatever reasons. As soon as Hendo was moved to RWB our midfield started suffering and we lost the foothold in the game somewhat. It has a lot to do with Lucas` and Gerrard`s fitness of course.

Sakho`s injury is massive, massive blow as Johnson looks completely lost out there not knowing whether he`s a fullback or CB, hopefully he`ll find his feet there as it looks Sakho with his back injury will be out for a while.

This new found defensive solidity has everything to do with 343 as it brings the best out of our players, extreme cynics like to say Rodgers stumbled upon it but what they neglect is that Rodgers from the very first day is constantly tinkering and experiment with personnel and shapes. Sometimes it blows in our face but sometimes it makes us look like an elite , competitive team like last night. 442 diamond did wonders for us last season and the same thing is happening this time around with this new shape.

See absolutely no reason why shouldn`t keep on insisting on using it and perfecting it in the process.

Apart from maybe using Toure or Lovren instead, we could always shift Can over to the left, and put Johnson on the right where he would be more comfortable, or even Can to the left and Manquillo to the right, as he is a very defensively responsible player. The key to this back three for me is more Skrtel as the "sweeper", and Lucas as the "stopper" (with Henderson floating in if Lucas goes forward). After that, then we can worry about the outside defenders. But I think Johnson versus almost anyone else apart from the Chelsea and the City attacks, will be fine in that position.

[bodhisattva]

As we`ve seen yesterday the formation suffers as soon we change the ideal choices for respective positions for whatever reasons. As soon as Hendo was moved to RWB our midfield started suffering and we lost the foothold in the game somewhat. It has a lot to do with Lucas` and Gerrard`s fitness of course.

Sakho`s injury is massive, massive blow as Johnson looks completely lost out there not knowing whether he`s a fullback or CB, hopefully he`ll find his feet there as it looks Sakho with his back injury will be out for a while.

This new found defensive solidity has everything to do with 343 as it brings the best out of our players, extreme cynics like to say Rodgers stumbled upon it but what they neglect is that Rodgers from the very first day is constantly tinkering and experiment with personnel and shapes. Sometimes it blows in our face but sometimes it makes us look like an elite , competitive team like last night. 442 diamond did wonders for us last season and the same thing is happening this time around with this new shape.

See absolutely no reason why shouldn`t keep on insisting on using it and perfecting it in the process.

Id hope recruitment will bear with this in mind if 3-4-3 is something we're going to persist with it changes the types of players you look at. We need defenders that are comfortable in posession and comfortable defending those wide areas, as we've seen with Can you can also take someone with those characteristics and play them back there with great effect even if they're not known as a defender. You could easily see Gerrard for example being able to play in a back 3 but not in a 4.

but i agree at the moment there is a drop off when certain players are moved around, we need Henderson and Lucas in the middle the back 3 was working so effectively now its up to Lovren or Johnson to come in if Sakho is gonna miss games, personally after watching Johnson last night id try Lovren but im not comfortable with either to be honest.

the wing backs get through a lot of work so we need 2 quality options for both wingback positions. Given you have the option of playing fullbacks or wingers there it shouldn't be too much of a problem finding options, but again this is where recruitment comes in if you are going to sign a winger to play in that position they have to be prepared to do the defensive work like we've seen from Markovic and Sterling in the past.

[SerbianScouser]

Apart from maybe using Toure or Lovren instead, we could always shift Can over to the left

Me too, Can played LB at times at Leverkusen and Johnson would be more comfortable on the right. Though I remember Rodgers explaining re Lovren earlier in the season how it`s not easy for CB to shift from LCB to RCB and vice versa just like that so only God knows Can and Johnson might feel being rotated around just like that. But with our CMs and wing-backs back 3 get proper protection imo and I`m confident our defensive stability will continue regardless of injuries and personnel changes.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Me too, Can played LB at times at Leverkusen and Johnson would be more comfortable on the right. Though I remember Rodgers explaining re Lovren earlier in the season how it`s not easy for CB to shift from LCB to RCB and vice versa just like that so only God knows Can and Johnson might feel being rotated around just like that. But with our CMs and wing-backs back 3 get proper protection imo and I`m confident our defensive stability will continue regardless of injuries and personnel changes.

What helps Can though, is that he's also a central midfielder, so he's comfortable on both sides of the pitch in any case, whereas a true central defender will be more used to whatever side he has played on the most.

[bodhisattva]

Apart from maybe using Toure or Lovren instead, we could always shift Can over to the left, and put Johnson on the right where he would be more comfortable, or even Can to the left and Manquillo to the right, as he is a very defensively responsible player. The key to this back three for me is more Skrtel as the "sweeper", and Lucas as the "stopper" (with Henderson floating in if Lucas goes forward). After that, then we can worry about the outside defenders. But I think Johnson versus almost anyone else apart from the Chelsea and the City attacks, will be fine in that position.

do you think its "easier" to defend in this formation providing its done properly?
watching Can play back there are even though he has a little experience as a defender its mostly at U21 level but hes thriving and looking such a good player not only defensively but with that freedom to bring the ball forward which creates all sorts of problems for the opposition. It makes you wonder what other midfield players that are out there that could be converted to playing in that sort of system.

Agree about Manquillo on the right of the 3 i think he'd do a solid job there and would be comfortable defending in those wider areas. Johnson worried me yesterday he looked slow but as you pointed out he was up against one of the top attacking teams in Europe.

[007.lankyguy]

As we`ve seen yesterday the formation suffers as soon we change the ideal choices for respective positions for whatever reasons. As soon as Hendo was moved to RWB our midfield started suffering and we lost the foothold in the game somewhat. It has a lot to do with Lucas` and Gerrard`s fitness of course.

Sakho`s injury is massive, massive blow as Johnson looks completely lost out there not knowing whether he`s a fullback or CB, hopefully he`ll find his feet there as it looks Sakho with his back injury will be out for a while.

This new found defensive solidity has everything to do with 343 as it brings the best out of our players, extreme cynics like to say Rodgers stumbled upon it but what they neglect is that Rodgers from the very first day is constantly tinkering and experiment with personnel and shapes. Sometimes it blows in our face but sometimes it makes us look like an elite , competitive team like last night. 442 diamond did wonders for us last season and the same thing is happening this time around with this new shape.

See absolutely no reason why shouldn`t keep on insisting on using it and perfecting it in the process.

That's partly due to the fact we actually changed formation though. When Balotelli came on for Markovic we started playing a 3-4-1-2. Two up front, one less midfielder, Lucas and Gerrard having to cover more lateral space.

[simbo]

What helps Can though, is that he's also a central midfielder, so he's comfortable on both sides of the pitch in any case, whereas a true central defender will be more used to whatever side he has played on the most.

Different topic but there a way bigger case to make Can the next skipper than there is Henderson

[leivapool]

Different topic but there a way bigger case to make Can the next skipper than there is Henderson

Behave

[simbo]

Behave

why?

[Miltonred]

why?

I'll bite (or hand you the rope  ). Make the case for Can as captain, take your time though, you'll need to tie it into the 3-4-3 formation or make another thread!

[Sangria]

What helps Can though, is that he's also a central midfielder, so he's comfortable on both sides of the pitch in any case, whereas a true central defender will be more used to whatever side he has played on the most.

We need more DM/CB types to populate a mixed position with spares. Also winger/FB types for the same. Every window (who am I kidding, I mean every summer), once we've filled the most urgent needs, we should look to recruit in these 2 areas.

[HaskoLFC]

Not sure if its been said but if we do persist with the 343 when studge comes back, where does Gerrard fit in? Coutinhos been on fire, sterling is our best player and Studge is our best striker.

Only place I can see Gerrard starting is in CM and I think that'll fail miserably, its no surprise we looked a lot more shakey yesterday when Gerrard went into the middle with Hendo moving to RWB.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Not sure if its been said but if we do persist with the 343 when studge comes back, where does Gerrard fit in? Coutinhos been on fire, sterling is our best player and Studge is our best striker.

Only place I can see Gerrard starting is in CM and I think that'll fail miserably, its no surprise we looked a lot more shakey yesterday when Gerrard went into the middle with Hendo moving to RWB.

He fits in on the bench. He's leaving at the end of the season, so Rodgers has to play the team that will be here next year, and then honour Gerrard's contribution (while giving some players a rest) by using him when needed, rather than as a matter of course.

[Chakan]

He fits in on the bench. He's leaving at the end of the season, so Rodgers has to play the team that will be here next year, and then honour Gerrard's contribution (while giving some players a rest) by using him when needed, rather than as a matter of course.

What's the chance of that happening?

[PhaseOfPlay]

What's the chance of that happening?

I think it's quite high. I think that's part of the reason why Gerrard is leaving, because it's not just next season his minutes would be managed, but this season too. I think he'll play the Europa games, and the FA Cup, but in the league it's more likely he'll be used from the bench apart from the derby and a few other big games. I don't expect to see him start on Saturday. I think Rodgers will go with Coutinho and Lallana, with one of them coming off for Sturridge in the second half.

[Chakan]

I think it's quite high. I think that's part of the reason why Gerrard is leaving, because it's not just next season his minutes would be managed, but this season too. I think he'll play the Europa games, and the FA Cup, but in the league it's more likely he'll be used from the bench apart from the derby and a few other big games. I don't expect to see him start on Saturday. I think Rodgers will go with Coutinho and Lallana, with one of them coming off for Sturridge in the second half.

Interesting I hope you're right, we need to start getting the team to flow and get used to the idea that Gerrard isn't going to be there. Hopefully Sturridge makes an appearance on the weekend. Hopefully it's the start of a long period where Sturridge is back. It's horrible to rely on one lone striker to put the ball into the net in a squad of 25 players.