Topic: How far away are we really? Why good outweighs bad yet isn't seen on the pitch

[Passmaster Molby]

There is no doubt we have seen a big improvement on where we were back when Palace beat us, but the 10 games coming up are, on paper, much more difficult than the last 10 we have played. If we can continue to get similar results over the next couple of months to those we have had over the previous few weeks then we can safely say we are back on track and competing at the top end again.

[Miltonred]

If you take a historical perspective. In January 2011 after Hodgsons last game we were 20 points behind the premierships leaders. Today we are only 17 points behind.

That's a massive improvement right?

[john_mac]

If you take a historical perspective. In January 2011 after Hodgsons last game we were 20 points behind the premierships leaders. Today we are only 17 points behind.

That's a massive improvement right?

Yep

[Keita Success]

I think that we find out were we are as a team, after we come out of February. With Everton, Spurs and Southampton, we'll find out where we are at.

[Big Bamber]

This thread is sponsored by Prozac

Sodium pentothal 

[JackWard33]

If you take a historical perspective. In January 2011 after Hodgsons last game we were 20 points behind the premierships leaders. Today we are only 17 points behind.

That's a massive improvement right?

Compare the two squads - Hodgson's squad was a dumpster fire of old age and mediocrity
This squad is bursting full of young talent that hasn't peaked yet

[MerseyParadise]

They're nowhere near 'twice' the side we are. On our day we are easily as good as them. Also forgetting we have Sturridge still to come back, Markovic, Lallana, Sterling improving every week etc.

You've compared our manager to David Brent, pretty much confirming you as a WUM.

Complaining about the Leicester lineup? Well the only change was to stick Gerrard back in after his rest, and Toure in for Skrtel who was suspended.

So unless you've got a cob on about playing Stevie in the odd game in his last season then you're clueless. And if you have got a twist on about Stevie playing then you can do one anyway.

I could have swore we beat Southampton, so how can they be twice the side of us?

[DanA]

More and more it seems like we are a keeper and striker (in the absence of Sturridge) away from being a good team.

[kcbworth]

Compare the two squads - Hodgson's squad was a dumpster fire of old age and mediocrity
This squad is bursting full of young talent that hasn't peaked yet

No.

Hodgsons squad was very good but he constantly talked it down.

Gerrard + Carra + Torres + Agger (at peak) + Johnson (at peak) + Skrtel + Lucas + Aurelio off the top of my head. A quality quality side

Hodgson spent every opportunity he got talking down the quality of this squad. A hugely talented and strong squad.

His problem was not personnel, but him

[mrantarctica]

No.

Hodgsons squad was very good but he constantly talked it down.

Gerrard + Carra + Torres + Agger (at peak) + Johnson (at peak) + Skrtel + Lucas + Aurelio off the top of my head. A quality quality side

Hodgson spent every opportunity he got talking down the quality of this squad. A hugely talented and strong squad.

His problem was not personnel, but him

Problem then and problem now is that the players are being asked to do things that they simply aren't among the best in the league at. It's a combined tactical and personnel problem not one or the other.

Get and keep more ace players and I think you'll see a turnaround in our consistency. Try to ensure the players we get are actually suited to our tactics and then we'll see improvement too even if the players aren't the best in the league.

[mabbympb]

The solution is to make sure we don't fall into this trap again, and that while we will never always sign the right player every time, that as a minimum requirement we sign people that fit the way the manager wants us to play. But purely as an exercise if you have read this thread with a sceptical face on: Pick a midfielder, striker and goalkeeper to add into our current squad. They don't have to be realistic particularly although obviously it seems silly to pick the likes of Messi or Ronaldo simply because those players come along so rarely. Add the players into both the side and squad and then see where you think that side/squad would finish. I am going to post mine up but please don't post yours in response, it can get very dull that way:

Our manager is a top quality coach. However, getting the key summer transfer business wrong means that this season we are pretty much the definition of "so near and yet so far".

Digging this up as it was a good read/OP at the time, now we are a couple of months down the line, and we look better by th game. We even have a fully fit pacy striker who fits our style of play.
Watching our subs last night (sterling from RWB to lwb to striker, Johnson from RWB to lwb) got me thinking, that the ultimate for us as a team, in our evolution, would be to be able to change between 343, 433 or a 442 diamond with relative ease in terms of the players we have available. If a team was to suss out how to defend against the 343, no problem, mid game rejig to 442.

Applying that to the quoted paragraph, you could very easily do this with the addition of a couple of key types of player. Dani Alves as a RWB? Or RB, or RW.  A mobile striker/creator? Plenty of  in game options with out using subs.

343.                          433.                      442 diamond.
Mignolet.                   Mignolet.                Mignolet

Can.                          Alves.                    Alves
Skrtel.                       Skrtel.                   skrtel
Sakho.                      Sakho.                   Sakho
                                Moreno.                 Moreno
Alves
Henderson.                Henderson.            Can
Allen.                        Allen.                    Henderson
Moreno.                    Can.                      Allen
                                                            Coutinho
Sterling.                    Sterling
Sturridge.                  Coutinho.              Sterling
Coutinho.                  Sturridge.              Sturridge.

From that basis and I think we already know we need a good mobile striker as competition or backup to studge, and maybe it would be handy if he could lead the line and also drop in behind and be a creator. A Carlos tevez, or dare I say, wayne  Rooney? Who else is out there that would realistically join and suit us?

[killer-heels]

I think this squad is pretty much ready to challenge for the title next season. Need another striker which we are likely to get, another midfielder which we are also likely to get to take Gerrard's place and another keeper, but then maybe not if Mignolet continues this form.

Fair play to the new signings, they have generally done well now.

[kaz1983]

I don't think we will ever see us switching from 4-3-3 to 3-4-3 mid game. It's either or, in my opinion unless we play the 3-4-3 like that 90's Ajax side as PoP pointed out in a separate thread.. I will try dig the post up.

Blind stepped into the midfield though. The point I made was that as long as Skrtel is the middle of the back three, he's going to be pushed out of his comfort zone. Blind was comfortable turning on the ball. He wasn't just a sweeper, he was also a midfielder. We could play Can there, and get a good effect, but we'd reduce Skrtel's game somewhat by moving him out to the side.

So instead of a sweeper type like Skrtel playing in that central slot, they played with a central defender who would step into midfield and "was comfortable turning on the ball" .. so IF we are ever to switch from four at the back to a back three you would think that:

A) we sign a sweeper keeper type goalkeeper to replace Mignolet.
B) we replace Skrtel.
C) possibly sign a new right back.

something like this.

1-4-3-3

Sweeper keeper

*new right back
Sakho
*new center back (replace Skrtel)
Moreno

Allen
Can centrally
Henderson

Coutinho
Sturridge
Sterling

1-3-4-3

Sweeper keeper

Sakho
Can
*new center back

*new right back
Henderson
Allen
Moreno

Coutinho
Sturridge
Sterling

[-HH-]

I think this squad is pretty much ready to challenge for the title next season. Need another striker which we are likely to get, another midfielder which we are also likely to get to take Gerrard's place and another keeper, but then maybe not if Mignolet continues this form.

Fair play to the new signings, they have generally done well now.

We could be. I think the point I was trying to make here still stands up. We didn't sign bad players. The lack of mobility up front was solved by putting Sterling up top, in midfield we have looked better with Stevie out injured. Rodgers found a formation that works for the players we signed, and for the most part when players have had injuries or needed resting the players who have come in have done well, emphasising the benefit of the stronger squad we now have. No more bringing in Aspas and Moses and suffering for it.

Never thought Rodgers would turn it round as well or as quickly as he has. He has to take massive credit for that.

[DanA]

Definitely think we are ready to challenge for the title. Think there's only a few minor positions in need of improvement and regardless of what happens there we should be right up in the top four next season. Most or all the positions we need to improve are backup positions but they can the difference between 1st and 3rd.

[Roger Federer]

Most or all the positions we need to improve are backup positions but they can the difference between 1st and 3rd.

Don't really understand this thinking. If we focus on 2-4 new players in the summer - and we should in my opinion - surely the aim is to get players that are better than what we've got? And not ones you expect from the beginning to sit on the bench?

For example, and I know he's playing well at the moment, a new goalkeeper (which everyone thought was needed just two months ago - he was droped for Jones after all!) should be good enough to be number one, and not only an improvement on Jones. Same with a central midfielder, defender or wingback, should we chose to strenghten those positions. The only exception that I can see, is with our attack, but that is because we've got 3 excellent players there. The likes of Coutinho, Sterling and Sturridge will be extremely difficult to improve upon, so I think it's fair to say that perhaps a new striker (which we must get) wont be a certain starter, even if the should still be the aim, naturally. But elsewhere in the team, it is probably more realistic to think we can improve. It shouldn't be impossible to buy a wingback that is better than Markovic or Moreno, or a midfielder with more quality than Allen, Lucas and Henderson. Or maybe it is, I don't know who is available and willing to come.

[Latenight Surfer]

Because the pitch is awful.

[DanA]

Don't really understand this thinking. If we focus on 2-4 new players in the summer - and we should in my opinion - surely the aim is to get players that are better than what we've got? And not ones you expect from the beginning to sit on the bench?

For example, and I know he's playing well at the moment, a new goalkeeper (which everyone thought was needed just two months ago - he was droped for Jones after all!) should be good enough to be number one, and not only an improvement on Jones. Same with a central midfielder, defender or wingback, should we chose to strenghten those positions. The only exception that I can see, is with our attack, but that is because we've got 3 excellent players there. The likes of Coutinho, Sterling and Sturridge will be extremely difficult to improve upon, so I think it's fair to say that perhaps a new striker (which we must get) wont be a certain starter, even if the should still be the aim, naturally. But elsewhere in the team, it is probably more realistic to think we can improve. It shouldn't be impossible to buy a wingback that is better than Markovic or Moreno, or a midfielder with more quality than Allen, Lucas and Henderson. Or maybe it is, I don't know who is available and willing to come.

My point maybe isn't as clear as I'd have liked, it's not that we should buy inferior players. Rather that none of the starters in the current team need to be replaced. For instance if we bought Coentrao it's not to replace Moreno, it's be replacing Enrique. We still have another quality option should Coentrao do a DI Maria like flop, there's no reason for us to struggle out of the blocks next season.

That hasn't been the case this season. Rodgers had to throw players in the deep end and persisted with poor options before he came up with something out of the box, it was half a season wasted before we found something that worked. Next season we should be able to hit the ground running.

[-HH-]

Because the pitch is awful.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Definitely think we are ready to challenge for the title. Think there's only a few minor positions in need of improvement and regardless of what happens there we should be right up in the top four next season. Most or all the positions we need to improve are backup positions but they can the difference between 1st and 3rd.

A striker, ball-playing central midfielder, centre-back capable of possibly playing in the wider areas of a 3, and if we can...Cech

I think one area people might not mention much but for me would give us another dimension to our attack is a left-footed right-winger who is adept at coming in. Our WBs look much more dangerous when they're inverted, or capable of coming inside. We don't have such a player for the right side, though both Markovic and Sterling have done well on the left.

[DanA]

A striker, ball-playing central midfielder, centre-back capable of possibly playing in the wider areas of a 3, and if we can...Cech

I think one area people might not mention much but for me would give us another dimension to our attack is a left-footed right-winger who is adept at coming in. Our WBs look much more dangerous when they're inverted, or capable of coming inside. We don't have such a player for the right side, though both Markovic and Sterling have done well on the left.

Maybe. I wanted a left footed RW last summer but I'm not so sure we need one if we are playing wing backs. I think Ibe has been pretty good on the right. To me it matters less which foot they are and more that we need a player that can beat a man too draw that extra defender and create space in central areas. 

[Le_Mot_Juste]

Sign Cech, Reus and Mandzukic.
Sell Borini.
Books balanced.

[Roger Federer]

My point maybe isn't as clear as I'd have liked, it's not that we should buy inferior players. Rather that none of the starters in the current team need to be replaced. For instance if we bought Coentrao it's not to replace Moreno, it's be replacing Enrique. We still have another quality option should Coentrao do a DI Maria like flop, there's no reason for us to struggle out of the blocks next season.

That hasn't been the case this season. Rodgers had to throw players in the deep end and persisted with poor options before he came up with something out of the box, it was half a season wasted before we found something that worked. Next season we should be able to hit the ground running.

But the hope would be that Coentrao, or whoever, comes here and is better than not only enrique (not difficult, and shouldn't cost much) but Moreno too? That might not happen as every transfer can't work out perfectly, or Moreno might up his game because of the increased competition, but surely that is the idea?

It feels like we do have the same thoughts, and I agree that it will be difficult to improve our current starting eleven, but that should still be the aim of every transfer. Certainly now, when our squad is lacking only a few quality players.

[Shaved Crossbar]

I think one area people might not mention much but for me would give us another dimension to our attack is a left-footed right-winger who is adept at coming in.

Harry Wilson

[Asam]

I think that we need to focus on adding players that have a winning mentality and have ideally won league titles / trophies and not just rely on the manager to develop talented young players

Regardless of who we sign, we have to focus on starting the season fast, so if we want to compete for the title we can't do that and start the season with experimental line ups, I would be happy to see us start with the same 9/10 players that are currently playing week-in, week out and then give the newer signings the ability to influence games from the bench, its about evolution and not revolution at this point for us-

[Qston]

We are not far away at all. However, what is absolutely vital is that the young talent we do have are tied down to long term deals. I don`t like the uncertainty at the moment and wouldn't want anything to affect the great work that has been done over the past few years. As other posters have said a couple of good quality players in the summer and we will be there or thereabouts.....assuming we get the likes of Sterling and Henderson tied down to new deals

[007.lankyguy]

We really aren't a long way off the title. Tonight (or last night now) showed that. People talk about how the Premier League is more competitive now but actually it's just not very good. Chelsea are clearly the best team and yet even they aren't great.

It was a lot harder to win the title six or seven years ago in my opinion - the top teams were genuinely good, balanced, strong, consistent. Now that's not the case. We can genuinely aim for it next season, especially if we get our signings right.

[Durlmints]

We really aren't a long way off the title. Tonight (or last night now) showed that. People talk about how the Premier League is more competitive now but actually it's just not very good. Chelsea are clearly the best team and yet even they aren't great.

It was a lot harder to win the title six or seven years ago in my opinion - the top teams were genuinely good, balanced, strong, consistent. Now that's not the case. We can genuinely aim for it next season, especially if we get our signings right.

I hope you're ready for Wanyama, Ings, Leroy Fer and Winston Reid. Cheeky bid for James Morrison too but obviously we'd have to make sure he wanted to come here.

[007.lankyguy]

I hope you're ready for Wanyama, Ings, Leroy Fer and Winston Reid. Cheeky bid for James Morrison too but obviously we'd have to make sure he wanted to come here.

In all seriousness, why wouldn't you have Wanyama here? I'd happily sign him.

[rawcusk8]

Ths likes of Wanyama Ings etc etc are not bad squad players, id have them here if we have a top signing come in with them. For example if we bring in Ings and Vietto then id be delighted. We really do need to get our signings right and if we do we'll be challenging for the title sooner rather than later.

[Roger Federer]

In all seriousness, why wouldn't you have Wanyama here? I'd happily sign him.

He's not very good on the ball, is he? Can't say I watched him closely, but I don't think he's a significant upgrade on Lucas, Allen or Henderson. We don't need another option, we need a few really, really good players. Maybe Wanyama is, but I haven't noticed it myself.

[007.lankyguy]

He's not very good on the ball, is he? Can't say I watched him closely, but I don't think he's a significant upgrade on Lucas, Allen or Henderson. We don't need another option, we need a few really, really good players. Maybe Wanyama is, but I haven't noticed it myself.

Wanyama's a very good player. Would be more than a squad player for us.

Anyway, this isn't the transfer thread so...

[mrantarctica]

Our current form is definitely title worthy. We need to be able to sustain it over a season though. The main barriers to that are squad depth and starting a bit better next time. It's funny how every season we seem to say we're only 2-3 really quality signings from being a top team. I just hope that we do our transfer homework a bit early and get our deals wrapped up quickly next time around.

[harryc]

Wanyama's a very good player. Would be more than a squad player for us.

Anyway, this isn't the transfer thread so...

If you want a midfield destroyer he is fine but you need a player with him.

[diegoLFC7]

Im banking on us signing Pjanic. I dont care how much he costs and how much his wages are. If we can get him in the midfield with Can and Henderson we can have a solid mid.

[cornelius]

Im banking on us signing Pjanic. I dont care how much he costs and how much his wages are. If we can get him in the midfield with Can and Henderson we can have a solid mid.

Must admit I've been thinking about that trio myself ever since the Pjanic speculation. Throw Benzema in and we're in business!!!

Hard to believe we'll really go for players like that though isn't it?

Our current form is definitely title worthy. We need to be able to sustain it over a season though. The main barriers to that are squad depth and starting a bit better next time. It's funny how every season we seem to say we're only 2-3 really quality signings from being a top team. I just hope that we do our transfer homework a bit early and get our deals wrapped up quickly next time around.

What do we do about the goalie? Genuine question. It's been like watching two totally different keepers this season!

[PhaseOfPlay]

Must admit I've been thinking about that trio myself ever since the Pjanic speculation. Throw Benzema in and we're in business!!!

Hard to believe we'll really go for players like that though isn't it?What do we do about the goalie? Genuine question. It's been like watching two totally different keepers this season!

If we keep the back three, with Skrtel sweeping, we should be fine in general terms. But if we want more from that position, as Royhendo wrote about, we might see, if not a change, then at least an addition.

[diegoLFC7]

Must admit I've been thinking about that trio myself ever since the Pjanic speculation. Throw Benzema in and we're in business!!!

Hard to believe we'll really go for players like that though isn't it?What do we do about the goalie? Genuine question. It's been like watching two totally different keepers this season!

It all depends on whether we qualify for champions league. Players wanna be seen on the big stage, and we havent consistently qualified. People argue that location isnt a factor but i think it is. Liverpool isnt as attractive to a foreigner than London. Sure i love Liverpool and i would choose it over any city but the foreigner doesnt see it like that. Manchester is a shit hole but players go there because of wages, which is my other point. We dont pay top wages for top players, which i see a factor as to why we aren't keeping up with other clubs. Rodgers as manager can also be a factor as hes not seen as an attractive coach but if players can see his vision then they can join him.

[PhaseOfPlay]

It all depends on whether we qualify for champions league. Players wanna be seen on the big stage, and we havent consistently qualified. People argue that location isnt a factor but i think it is. Liverpool isnt as attractive to a foreigner than London. Sure i love Liverpool and i would choose it over any city but the foreigner doesnt see it like that. Manchester is a shit hole but players go there because of wages, which is my other point. We dont pay top wages for top players, which i see a factor as to why we aren't keeping up with other clubs. Rodgers as manager can also be a factor as hes not seen as an attractive coach but if players can see his vision then they can join him.

Says who?

[LRRP]

Says who?

i think players understand that his team plays good football but perhaps his lack of cup winning pedigree, and hence lesser reputation makes him a slightly lesser prospect.

Then again, he is young and has great potential. Unfortunately though I don't think many players see that.