Topic: How far away are we really? Why good outweighs bad yet isn't seen on the pitch

[TSC]

Brendan's already come out and said that we probably won't do much business in this window. Having spent a considerable amount in the summer, why would the owners sanction more spending? They're not going to want to hand out 50m again to see another Balotelli or Lovren situation. Better off just waiting to see if those players come good and maybe quietly maneuver for deals in the summer. A decent GK would be good though. Need to just chip away and add quality players to the squad. Better to start sooner rather than later

The owners didn't spend a considerable amount though, much of it came from sales.  Net spend was about £25m or so.  Anyway my point was down to wages not transfer fees specifically.  If you're not prepared to pay wages demanded by top players then top players aren't going to be heading this way.

[naka]

If the owners aren't dpending how did we have financial fair play issues
I think owners doing ok
We bought poorly
And for what it's worth we need a more disciplined defence
Which can only be coached

[Mighty_Red]

I think that you have asked some very reasonable questions there.

When Brendan Rodgers first arrived, I was under the impression that he would want his keeper to act as a sweeper. Now, the impression that I have of Mignolet is that he is a good shot stopper. But he isn't someone that often ventures outside of the penalty area, and when he does, he doesn't look comfortable with that role.

Sometimes his starting position simply doesn't allow him to do that and his distribution of the ball isn't great. I am speculating here of course, but maybe the club has signed certain players with the hope of being able to alter their game and make them fit in here? It isn't impossible to do - but it is a risky move to make I think, especially when the player is used to playing under a certain style and has these habits in their game.

The Mignolet issue probably needs to be kept separate - he was brought in last season when we were out of the CL and it looked like Reina was off. I don't think we were in a position to spend a lot more on someone better. In any case, Mig is young and has lots of room to improve. He did well last season (albeit with some howlers) but this season he has crumbled and I'm not really sure why. It's a bit like Dudek in his 2nd season. Yes his kicking wasn't great before but it seems even worse.

In some ways, it makes the decision to get rid of Pepe worse. I know the relationship had broken down, and that Brendan wouldv'e wanted Mig to have the security of being no 1, but I'd bet that Mig would've picked up a few things just seeing Pepe in training. I don't think we will be able to get a high-calibre replacement right now so maybe we just have to work on getting the best out of Mig and see how that goes.

[Gnurglan]

To have a decent window as opposed to our usual then as a club we'd need to adopt a different approach and be prepared to pay top wages to attract the two or three quality players.  And it won't happen unless FSG give the go ahead to adopting such a change.

I'd want us to alter our policy. If we consider our current squad, it's young and we have promising players. That part is already covered. There is little need to add more young players who may come good in the future. We have more than enough players too. What we need to strengthen is the core. And we need to work on it, not just wait and hope for the best. We wait and hope for the best with Moreno, Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic etc. But if we think Mignolet, Lovren, Balotelli (and Gerrard's departure) will just come good, then I worry. We need to upgrade there. Sell and buy new.

[OperationIvy]

I'd want us to alter our policy. If we consider our current squad, it's young and we have promising players. That part is already covered. There is little need to add more young players who may come good in the future. We have more than enough players too. What we need to strengthen is the core. And we need to work on it, not just wait and hope for the best. We wait and hope for the best with Moreno, Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic etc. But if we think Mignolet, Lovren, Balotelli (and Gerrard's departure) will just come good, then I worry. We need to upgrade there. Sell and buy new.

Personally I think our core is ok with the new formation.

IMO our loss to Leicester and some of the others this season is down to tactical mistakes by Rodgers, mainly playing Gerrard too far back. I think he looked at old man Pirlo in the Italian league as a quarterback and thought it would work for us.

Lucas and Hendo with Can, Skrtel(or Toure), Sakho behind them is not a bad core. I think Mingnolet should get better once the outfield is sorted out.

[TSC]

Personally I think our core is ok with the new formation.

IMO our loss to Leicester and some of the others this season is down to tactical mistakes by Rodgers, mainly playing Gerrard too far back. I think he looked at old man Pirlo in the Italian league as a quarterback and thought it would work for us.

Lucas and Hendo with Can, Skrtel(or Toure), Sakho behind them is not a bad core. I think Mingnolet should get better once the outfield is sorted out.

It may not be 'bad' but crucially it's not top quality, which is what is needed to be successful.

[Gnurglan]

Personally I think our core is ok with the new formation.

IMO our loss to Leicester and some of the others this season is down to tactical mistakes by Rodgers, mainly playing Gerrard too far back. I think he looked at old man Pirlo in the Italian league as a quarterback and thought it would work for us.

Lucas and Hendo with Can, Skrtel(or Toure), Sakho behind them is not a bad core. I think Mingnolet should get better once the outfield is sorted out.

Not convinced that's the case. I'm fortunate to have seen great players. I think Reina, Sami, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard (in his prime), Torres and Suarez. We haven't got enough players of that quality. We hope we have them, but that's not the same as having them.

[Roger Federer]

You could argue that the wrong players have shown promise from our new signings. Lallana has been very good and Can, Manquillo and Moreno have had some decent games and are now being joined by Markovic.

However if they would have been terrible and instead Balotelli and Lovren would have been good then i reckon this season would have been completely different. We havent signed shit players but the two players we needed our best performances from in terms of scoring goals and improving the defence hasnt happened.

This is my view as well, and why I'm still quite optimistic going forward. Because it shows that we're only 3-4 really good signings away from a much better team. We don't need more quantity (in fact, we could let go of over 10 players on our books with ease, and it wouldn't affect the squad in any serious way), but we do need to get it right next time.

It's such a killer that the two most important players in terms of position and role in the squad, are the two who's failed the worst. For the outlay and wages, we should've got a great defender, someone to lead the back four (or three) for years, and at the very least a strong forward with some 15 goals/season in him. But, we're worse with Lovren in defence (takes some doing that!) and we've got so little movement, no link up play and zero goals up front. We need to correct that, improve on Mignolet, and get a really good midfielder too, and we're back again, I'm sure.

Of course, it is one thing to say we 'only' have to buy the next Desially or whatever, and another Sturridge, and a whole other to actually sign them up. If we fail as badly again with out major transfers next summer, even I wont be optimistic for much longer.

[TSC]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/for-1030pm-liverpool-fc-boss-8378712


Liverpool FC boss Brendan Rodgers looks for statement of intent from FSG in wake of Steven Gerrard departure

Gerrard's announcement will bring into sharp focus the transfer dealings of Fenway Sports Group

Eighteen months on, the Reds boss still hasn’t found a replacement for Jamie Carragher in central defence, while accusations of poorly spent funds after Luis Suarez’s exit have been well documented this season.

The post-Gerrard era will be even more testing, such has been the 34-year-old’s huge influence both on and off the field at Liverpool.

Liverpool owners Fenway Sports Group have made no secret of their willingness to invest in potential, preferring to nurture talent – albeit at times at significant expense – rather than spend big on proven stars.

But Rodgers admits the Reds must now look to make marquee signings in the summer if they are to avoid dropping away from the Premier League’s elite.

“I pride myself on working with senior players, whether they’re young players or senior players,” says the Reds boss.

“The model here at the football club is clear in terms of the owners want to bring in young players in order to develop and create them into world class players, which of course can be a longer and more difficult process.

“A large part of our squad is young players but there’s no doubt at times that if you want to take those steps forward, you need those ready-made players.

“It’s certainly something I know the owners look at. They know that not every player can be a developer.

“If you’re going to keep progressing, it’s something you to have to do.

“It is of course a difficult ask, you’ve got one of the leading players in world football over the last 10 to 15 years, but it happens to all the great players.

“As a football club you have got to look to find the next ones.”

Of course, Liverpool have splashed the cash in the past to replace departing heroes.

Kenny Dalglish commanded a British transfer record fee when following Kevin Keegan.

More landmarks went when John Aldridge, John Barnes and Peter Beardsley were brought in for a revamp in the wake of Ian Rush leaving.

And Suarez, while not signed as a replacement for Fernando Torres, ended up filling his boots to the tune of £22.8million.

Rodgers will not allow sentimentality to cloud his judgement over how to use Gerrard during the second half of the campaign, starting in Monday’s FA Cup third round tie at League Two sidwe AFC Wimbledon.

“He’s still very much a player in the now,” he says.

“He’s a fantastic player for me and still got second half of the season. He wants to be a real part of what we are trying to do here.

“It doesn’t change for me really. I will always pick the best team for any game.

“Steven understands where it’s at and the number of games he will be playing.”

While Gerrard’s decision to leave was borne out of a desire to continue playing, Rodgers reveals a coaching role wasn’t part of the contract tabled by Liverpool.

“Steven has an ambassadorial role in his contract here but, at this moment in time, there wasn’t a coaching offer made to him,” says the Reds boss.

“It wasn’t part of the conversations because Steven hasn’t got his badges, and he isn’t the type who will just go into coaching blind.

“Steven knows that once he has finished with playing there will be plenty of time for him to go into coaching if that’s something he wants to do.

“Certainly for me, if I was still the manager here when that time comes, he would be someone who would be great on my staff.

“The experiences Steven has of Liverpool as a club, means he has little bits of gold dust that he can give players.

“That would be invaluable to young players, but moving into coaching isn’t something you can do by just clicking your fingers.”

Gerrard has however already made tentative steps towards gaining coaching qualifications, with Rodgers confident the player’s leadership qualities mark him out as a future manager.

“I don’t see any reason why he couldn’t be,” says the Reds boss. “In my time here of knowing him, he’s been a wonderful leader.

“Steven is a genuine guy and a really authentic person and if he decides that is the route he wants to go down – and I know he is already taking the early stages of his coaching badges – then I know that is something he would really focus his life on doing.”

[RyanBabel19]

Well really it's 1.5 seasons considering he only went on loan in January and he's generally been first choice but unfortunately suffered a few injury problems. None of them seem a long term concern though. He's unbelievable fast and would easily be our best CB on the ball. To me it's more that he looks like he needs to develop physically more than anything. He looks technically a good defender but isn't a man child like the top defenders his age playing first team football.

VERY impressive if true considering how good Sakho is on the ball

[WhingingMoaningUpstart]

The Mignolet issue probably needs to be kept separate - he was brought in last season when we were out of the CL and it looked like Reina was off. I don't think we were in a position to spend a lot more on someone better. In any case, Mig is young and has lots of room to improve. He did well last season (albeit with some howlers) but this season he has crumbled and I'm not really sure why. It's a bit like Dudek in his 2nd season. Yes his kicking wasn't great before but it seems even worse.

In some ways, it makes the decision to get rid of Pepe worse. I know the relationship had broken down, and that Brendan wouldv'e wanted Mig to have the security of being no 1, but I'd bet that Mig would've picked up a few things just seeing Pepe in training. I don't think we will be able to get a high-calibre replacement right now so maybe we just have to work on getting the best out of Mig and see how that goes.

Simon is not 18 or 19; he will only improve fractionally for the remainder of his career. He will certainly not evolve into a sweeper keeper.

I agree regarding Pepe. Letting go of Pepe was a huge mistake. He used to be one of the best in the world.
Yes, Pepe made a dickish comment, but he has apologized. Besides, a seat on the bench is punishment enough, IMO.

[kcbworth]

Our owners are business orientated and as long as we turn a profit, on field events will always come second.

I didn't mind this post too much walshy, but, I take issue with this belief, as I don't think it even happens, let alone is a focus. I don't think profit is what we are aiming for... I believe it's sustainability.

And once we're sustainable, hopefully that can also mean sustained success.

Unfortunately we haven't got there overnight, sadly.

I mildly share some of your concerns about the manager (not in a great position to know really, Stevie seems to rate him), but I really don't have any issues with the ownership - perhaps other than the people they have appointed as administrators (some odd selections at times)

I guess I still remember vividly that we almost went into administration... could have set us back for decades, if we ever recovered at all, and certainly we wouldn't have been challenging for the title last season.

With that in mind, we're actually doing ok, and I think a focus on becoming sustainable again, after almost sending ourselves over the edge not too long ago, is actually the most sensible thing we could be doing right now

[Big Bamber]

Well Paul Tomkins has answered (and graphed!) the answer to your first question here:

http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/11/why-liverpool-never-win-the-league/


If you do not have an first eleven of a value in the Title Zone, or a squad cost (again, after inflation is applied) in the Title Zone, you won’t win the title. No team with an first eleven value lower than £210m has won the Premier League in over a decade. Liverpool’s current first eleven value is £138.9m, over £70m short of the minimum. (And indeed, it was £95m short of City’s last season.)

No team with a squad that cost less than £397m (after inflation) has won the title in over a decade. Liverpool’s current squad cost is £293m, over £100m short of that minimum. (And indeed, was a whopping £140m short of City’s last season.)

Now assuming one had the cash, owners and FFP ability to make up the value gap, how you spend that 70m will provide the answer to the second point. To see the good on the pitch of what we have already, I think we need to invest the lot in goals and a keeper.

[ShinyPepeHead]

Not convinced that's the case. I'm fortunate to have seen great players. I think Reina, Sami, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard (in his prime), Torres and Suarez. We haven't got enough players of that quality. We hope we have them, but that's not the same as having them.

True. A team is only going to win a title with at least 5-6 players of that quality. And realistically you're only able to add one or two per year (maybe one big money signing, one player breaking through).

Rafa nearly managed it - by the time we had Carra, Gerrard, Hyppia, Alonso, Masch and Torres in '08. And that got lost with the failure to replace Alonso and Hyppia's ageing.

Last year again.. with Gerrard, Suarez, Sterling and Sturridge there was some hope, but come the end of the year two will be gone and one will likely have missed over half the season.

So it looks to be like a long way back. Maybe our main hope is for Sturridge to stay injury free, at least a couple out of Sterling/Lallana/Hendo/Moreno/Coutinho/Sakho getting up to that level. Plus a couple of big signings. But it needs to happen sooner rather than later.

[farawayred]

Well Paul Tomkins has answered (and graphed!) the answer to your first question here:

http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/11/why-liverpool-never-win-the-league/

The graphs don't really explain how we were the lowest rated of the shown examples and yet we finished above most in the league, bar one...

Statistics need to be considered with caution. They do show a trend, but hide some facts too. Like a miniskirt - it gives you a pretty good idea, but hide the most important thing.

[WhingingMoaningUpstart]

Like a miniskirt - it gives you a pretty good idea, but hide the most important thing.

That's fucking deep man. I'm literally staggered.

[walshys_mullet]

The graphs don't really explain how we were the lowest rated of the shown examples and yet we finished above most in the league, bar one...

Statistics need to be considered with caution. They do show a trend, but hide some facts too. Like a miniskirt - it gives you a pretty good idea, but hide the most important thing.

There were a lot of external factors too and a team that for the most part avoided injuries to its main core.

[slw614]

Sorry but I do not understand how anyone can think the good can possibly outweigh the bad.

We are on course to finish behind not only Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd and Arsenal (I could take that) but Spurs and Southampton (who everyone is expecting to slip but show no signs of doing so) as well; one team who spent hardly any money and have generally not had a decent striker until very recently and who we have repeatedly spanked, and another who lost half their first team (many to us) and got a new manager in the summer. Yet we cannot even beat the bottom side in the league at home when going in 2-0 up at half-time. This after spending £120m.

This season is dire. No escaping it. And there is one man largely responsible for it. The excuses have to stop.

[stevensr123]

Sorry but I do not understand how anyone can think the good can possibly outweigh the bad.

We are on course to finish behind not only Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd and Arsenal (I could take that) but Spurs and Southampton (who everyone is expecting to slip but show no signs of doing so) as well; one team who spent hardly any money and have generally not had a decent striker until very recently and who we have repeatedly spanked, and another who lost half their first team (many to us) and got a new manager in the summer. Yet we cannot even beat the bottom side in the league at home when going in 2-0 up at half-time. This after spending £120m.

This season is dire. No escaping it. And there is one man largely responsible for it. The excuses have to stop.

To be honest mate, I do agree with you, his management of players has been poor this season where he has dropped the likes of can suddenly when he started to get into form, same with coutinho, Lallana, Moreno etc. and messing around with the team like the last match to simply accommodate Gerrard (he adjusted the teams play too much, Henderson pushed to right wing back, no stability or game plan in the middle of the park, no energy in the centre etc), his substitutions have also been bizarre. And that's not mentioning his signings that have so far not really worked much in his favour ( borini, lovren, Balotelli, Joe Allen to an extent, and many more), and so far this season he hasn't been learning from his mistakes.


However I think last season showed he knows how to get his teams performing, installing confidence, playing lovely attacking football etc and I think due to last season, He should get another season or so ( or at least until next January). I say this because the signings he has made are all young and I think they will gradually get better as the season comes on.

I also Think he needs more support and needs better coaches around him, Look at Ferguson, he surrounded himself with the best Coaches to the point he didn't even have to take training with the players. Even rafa had huge help from Pako in his time here.

Our main Priority I think In the back ground at least needs to be proper defensive coaches that can help set up the defending side of things, and a goal keeper coach.

On the Defensive coach side of things, its obvious our back 4 don't have a clue what they are doing, And some managers simply have a hard time when it does come to setting up a defence or proper defensive drills.

And When In comes to goal keeping coaches, its no surprise ever since that keeping coach left in rafas time here , pepe went to shit and ever since then all of our keepers have  just gotten worse when they have been here. Reina himself said his old coach played a massive role.


And we obviously need to bin off some of  our scouts and committee members and review the whole process,  because it simply isn't working.

Either way Lets at least give him another season to hopefully learn and turn around his mistakes.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

This after spending £120m. And there is one man largely responsible for it.

Yeah, the one man responsible for our drop in form is Suarez, not Rodgers, really, so you're chatting shite again.

£120m. But losing the world's third best player and investing in some fantastic prospects (Markovic, Can). it's getting fucking boring listening to our own fans trot out the shite that other fans usually use to bash us. I'm bored of typing the responses but fuck me if I'm just going to ignore it.

If you can't see that a team losing it's star player, and second best striker in the league to injury to boot, may just struggle, then you are fucking blind. As I've said many times before, Suarez has such an insane 'multiplier' in that he improves everyone around him that you can't replace him by adding a few £20m players taking up more than one spot in the XI.

Most of your posts are moaning drivel, if you don't like Rodgers to such an extent just swerve it til he's gone then eh? There's a fucking O missing from your name btw.

Still totally possible to win three trophies, in case you hadn't noticed.

[slw614]

Yeah, the one man responsible for our drop in form is Suarez, not Rodgers, really, so you're chatting shite again.

OK, so what you're basically suggesting is that last season was all Suarez (something I haven't even implied, as I feel Rodgers did manage the team well last term)? But that then is even less reason to support Rodgers as it suggests really that he got lucky.

£120m. But losing the world's third best player and investing in some fantastic prospects (Markovic, Can). it's getting fucking boring listening to our own fans trot out the shite that other fans usually use to bash us. I'm bored of typing the responses but fuck me if I'm just going to ignore it.

You ignore a key point... Southampton. Lost half their team (including their best players) and yet they are massively out-performing us because they have bought well, and are well-managed. We lost one, albeit massive player, and have fell apart. That's on Rodgers.

If you can't see that a team losing it's star player, and second best striker in the league to injury to boot, may just struggle, then you are fucking blind. As I've said many times before, Suarez has such an insane 'multiplier' in that he improves everyone around him that you can't replace him by adding a few £20m players taking up more than one spot in the XI.

See my above two posts.

Still totally possible to win three trophies, in case you hadn't noticed.

We won't though and then he will be no better than Kenny in his second term, without the legendary status.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

OK, so what you're basically suggesting is that last season was all Suarez (something I haven't even implied, as I feel Rodgers did manage the team well last term)? But that then is even less reason to support Rodgers as it suggests really that he got lucky.

You ignore a key point... Southampton. Lost half their team (including their best players) and yet they are massively out-performing us because they have bought well, and are well-managed. We lost one, albeit massive player, and have fell apart. That's on Rodgers.

See my above two posts.

We won't though and then he will be no better than Kenny in his second term, without the legendary status.

No, I'm not saying last season was all Suarez, see my posts in the Spanish footy thread for example.
Rodgers had a good system for the players we had, we had Luis, they went hand in hand. He's irreplaceable in a number of ways (Sanchez might have helped but ho hum) so we had to come up with a whole new system, which has taken a while but looks to be getting there - hence the reason for an optimistic thread like this.

Southampton, they're having a blinder, true. Change of manager, loss of key personnel. Let's see where they are at the end of the season. But they haven't lost anyone near as good as Suarez, Lallana is...well, he went to us not Barca, for a reason. Good player, but replaceable with a number of others.

If anything you're pointing out that their scouts are better than ours, thus more responsible for our problems than Rodgers.

We probably won't win all three trophies, but we're here to dream, as the banners say. Better to do that with a half-full glass than breaking the glass entirely and using the shards to start a brawl with the intention of maiming the manager though eh?

[-HH-]

3Crb

Sorry but I do not understand how anyone can think the good can possibly outweigh the bad.

Did you actually read the post or just the title? The main crux of the point was that more of our summer signings can be positive signings for us than not over the course of their careers (Lallana, Moreno, Manquillo, Markovic and possibly Lovren if our midfield/GK situation get sorted).

The problem was our decisions with particular signings that leave us more often than not lacking mobility up front and in midfield. The positives that we have aren't in positions that can have an impact on our whole system in the same way the strikers and central midfield can. Our system works best with mobility in those areas if the pitch and we will show a vastly different side to everyone with those problems remedied.

I don't think that's vastly controversial, but either way, had you read the opening post you wouldn't be making comments like "this season is a disaster" when if you read my post you'll see that I said that I think it highly unlikely that we'll finish in the top 4 and that the importance of getting those positions right takes precedence over trying to fix ourselves in January when 4th is such a long shot anyway.

[slw614]

No, I'm not saying last season was all Suarez, see my posts in the Spanish footy thread for example.
Rodgers had a good system for the players we had, we had Luis, they went hand in hand. He's irreplaceable in a number of ways (Sanchez might have helped but ho hum) so we had to come up with a whole new system, which has taken a while but looks to be getting there - hence the reason for an optimistic thread like this.

Southampton, they're having a blinder, true. Change of manager, loss of key personnel. Let's see where they are at the end of the season. But they haven't lost anyone near as good as Suarez, Lallana is...well, he went to us not Barca, for a reason. Good player, but replaceable with a number of others.

If anything you're pointing out that their scouts are better than ours, thus more responsible for our problems than Rodgers.

We probably won't win all three trophies, but we're here to dream, as the banners say. Better to do that with a half-full glass than breaking the glass entirely and using the shards to start a brawl with the intention of maiming the manager though eh?

Southampton came below us last season, had a worse team than us. But sold their best players, spending less money than we did, and are now above us. Suggests to me that they have a better manager.

[Red Sea]

Southampton came below us last season, had a worse team than us. But sold their best players, spending less money than we did, and are now above us. Suggests to me that they have a better manager.

They also have plenty of good players themselves, just to confidently claim we have far superior players to them is little short of arrogant, that would suggest to me both our manager is not doing as well as he could and that some of our players are not good enough/ or are badly out of form.

[Historical Fool]

I didn't mind this post too much walshy, but, I take issue with this belief, as I don't think it even happens, let alone is a focus. I don't think profit is what we are aiming for... I believe it's sustainability.

And once we're sustainable, hopefully that can also mean sustained success.

Unfortunately we haven't got there overnight, sadly.

I mildly share some of your concerns about the manager (not in a great position to know really, Stevie seems to rate him), but I really don't have any issues with the ownership - perhaps other than the people they have appointed as administrators (some odd selections at times)

I guess I still remember vividly that we almost went into administration... could have set us back for decades, if we ever recovered at all, and certainly we wouldn't have been challenging for the title last season.

With that in mind, we're actually doing ok, and I think a focus on becoming sustainable again, after almost sending ourselves over the edge not too long ago, is actually the most sensible thing we could be doing right now

Agree with this. I think he mentioned the arsenal model too - well the similarities are obvious for me (stadium expansion for us, paying for the emirates for them) albeit on a different scale. People need to remember that for the better part of 10 years Wenger chose (or the board chose for him, depending on what you want to believe) to be frugal in the interests of maintaining the club's healthy financial position. To do this he developed players from within to fit a certain style of play, and many of these players ended up coming good and sold on for massive profit - anelka, adebayor, Henry (I think), van Persie - or proved excellent value for money - pires, vieira, petit etc. all the while he made a profit

It's only after 10 years odd in the wilderness that he has felt comfortable, after the stadium is paid for, to fund purchases like ozil and Sanchez. If the owners want to follow this model then fair play to them imo, it's a proven business model and it clearly works. Just that as fans (and onlookers) would need to be happy with a relatively modest net spend and a lack of marquee signings for the foreseeable future. The question is then are we up to that, or will we revolt? History sadly suggests the latter.

[Mr_Shane]

3Crb
Did you actually read the post or just the title? The main crux of the point was that more of our summer signings can be positive signings for us than not over the course of their careers (Lallana, Moreno, Manquillo, Markovic and possibly Lovren if our midfield/GK situation get sorted).

The problem was our decisions with particular signings that leave us more often than not lacking mobility up front and in midfield. The positives that we have aren't in positions that can have an impact on our whole system in the same way the strikers and central midfield can. Our system works best with mobility in those areas if the pitch and we will show a vastly different side to everyone with those problems remedied.

I don't think that's vastly controversial, but either way, had you read the opening post you wouldn't be making comments like "this season is a disaster" when if you read my post you'll see that I said that I think it highly unlikely that we'll finish in the top 4 and that the importance of getting those positions right takes precedence over trying to fix ourselves in January when 4th is such a long shot anyway.

I think he just wants to vent his frustrations. That said, I like Rodgers a lot, not many managers can beat Arsenal, Man City and Man Utd. Chelsea is the only one which have given him problems

If he sorts out the defensive issues, he will become a top top manager and he has time on his side to do it

[ArthurDent]

I am going to post mine up but please don't post yours in response

Stopped reading at that point.

[-HH-]

Stopped reading at that point.

Why? It would have derailed the thread to a pointless "who did everyone pick?" Forgive me for trying to debate something other than which players would we most like to see in our team.

[slw614]

They also have plenty of good players themselves, just to confidently claim we have far superior players to them is little short of arrogant, that would suggest to me both our manager is not doing as well as he could and that some of our players are not good enough/ or are badly out of form.

That is exactly what I am suggesting. And if we do not have better players than a club recently out of the Championship having just qualified for the Champions League and spent £120m, then that again is a failure.

I think he just wants to vent his frustrations. That said, I like Rodgers a lot, not many managers can beat Arsenal, Man City and Man Utd. Chelsea is the only one which have given him problems

And if you actually look at his results, Rodgers head to head against those teams  (Man U, Arsenal, City and Chelsea) is at best average with the exception of last season. We have been thrashed by two of them this season, well beaten by another and needed a goal 7 minutes into injury time to draw the other this time around. Almost all league managers can claim to have beaten these teams at some point. Proves nothing. At the moment, Rodgers remains a one season wonder.

[weareivol]

We need a top quality attacker. Either need Sturridge fit or trade in some squaddies for one. In this position because neither Balo nor Markovic have worked out as planned.

As long as we actually use / sign a centre mid to replace Gerrard who has the physical qualities to run, keep up in 1 v 1s, track to go with some tactical awareness, we will become a better team. It's not a hard ask at all to be honest, the average top division mid will do all these things as long as he's physically up to it.

That's 2 areas that are very easy to improve, it's so low that the only area is up.

Should be enough to get a more solid, more penetrative team, how far that can take us, we'll see.

Markovic has not worked out as planned? Not sure if serious.. The guy is 20 & the performances he has put in so far have been really encouraging..

[WhingingMoaningUpstart]

if you read my post you'll see that I said that I think it highly unlikely that we'll finish in the top 4 and that the importance of getting those positions right takes precedence over trying to fix ourselves in January when 4th is such a long shot anyway.

I don't want to get in the middle of your discussion with @slw614 (who mistakenly drank a cup of lime concentrate before the Leicester game and still hasn't recovered), but your statement above is just wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to start.

[-HH-]

I don't want to get in the middle of your discussion with @slw614 (who mistakenly drank a cup of lime concentrate before the Leicester game and still hasn't recovered), but your statement above is just wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to start.

Well try. Start by reading the initial point in the main post though, about points required to take 4th and our upcoming fixture list.

[na fir dearg]

Well Paul Tomkins has answered (and graphed!) the answer to your first question here:

http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/11/why-liverpool-never-win-the-league/


If you do not have an first eleven of a value in the Title Zone, or a squad cost (again, after inflation is applied) in the Title Zone, you won’t win the title. No team with an first eleven value lower than £210m has won the Premier League in over a decade. Liverpool’s current first eleven value is £138.9m, over £70m short of the minimum. (And indeed, it was £95m short of City’s last season.)

No team with a squad that cost less than £397m (after inflation) has won the title in over a decade. Liverpool’s current squad cost is £293m, over £100m short of that minimum. (And indeed, was a whopping £140m short of City’s last season.)

Now assuming one had the cash, owners and FFP ability to make up the value gap, how you spend that 70m will provide the answer to the second point. To see the good on the pitch of what we have already, I think we need to invest the lot in goals and a keeper.

Thats a brilliant article and makes perfect sense - we wont be winning anything until we start to match the spending of league winners.

Whether we can do that (FFP, owners ability/desire), and bring in the players we need, remains to be seen...

[walshys_mullet]

I didn't mind this post too much walshy, but, I take issue with this belief, as I don't think it even happens, let alone is a focus. I don't think profit is what we are aiming for... I believe it's sustainability.

And once we're sustainable, hopefully that can also mean sustained success.

Unfortunately we haven't got there overnight, sadly.

I mildly share some of your concerns about the manager (not in a great position to know really, Stevie seems to rate him), but I really don't have any issues with the ownership - perhaps other than the people they have appointed as administrators (some odd selections at times)

I guess I still remember vividly that we almost went into administration... could have set us back for decades, if we ever recovered at all, and certainly we wouldn't have been challenging for the title last season.

With that in mind, we're actually doing ok, and I think a focus on becoming sustainable again, after almost sending ourselves over the edge not too long ago, is actually the most sensible thing we could be doing right now

Well lets be honest mate we are already worth more than they bought us for alone, with all the extra commercial deals they've cashed in on.

Im all for being sustainable, i just dont want to see us fall into this constant top 4 trap, where thats our aim every year, we build players up and then sell them at their peak and repeat the process.

I want to see us sustain a team and to be honest knock on the head all the potential buying and get a few players in with some experience who can propell us forward.

[-HH-]

HA. If you will read my posts, I was actually very positive after the Swansea performance. Unfortunately Brendan went and put his David Brent hat back on with the catastrophic result we saw.

So what you're saying is that all it takes is one resulr/performance for your opinion to do a U - turn? And you wonder why no-one is taking you seriously?

[slw614]

So what you're saying is that all it takes is one resulr/performance for your opinion to do a U - turn? And you wonder why no-one is taking you seriously?

No... I have been sceptical for weeks. But I gave credit where it was due.

[WhingingMoaningUpstart]

Well try. Start by reading the initial point in the main post though, about points required to take 4th and our upcoming fixture list.

I have. Statements such as the one below, however, makes it an unconvincing read.

What went wrong was that we forgot that we had one of the most fluid teams in the league last season...

How on earth could the manager, the entire coaching team, scouts and executives 'forget' that?

But that's besides the point I was making . After last season, I'm sure no one at the club - and certainly not the fans - think that we would be buying potentials, or players for the future. We were supposed to build upon last season's success, no reset everything back by two years. We were supposed to solidify our place among the top four.

I don't think many realize the financial implications on the squad if we fail to qualify for the CL this season. We've been losing money for consecutive seasons, and except for a little bookkeeping magic, we would've failed the FFP in the last reporting cycle. Even so, UEFA might still penalize us and is watching us ever so closely. Our wages constitutes 60%+ (can't remember the exact figure) of our revenue - we can't go above 70% (FFP req).

Without the CL prize money and TV and gate receipts, FSG and Brendan's hands will be severely tied in the transfer market. So yes, getting into CL take precedence over everything.

Besides, we're five points off CL qualification (I've excluded Southampton from the equation for obvious reasons). We will qualify if we can get two extra wins than Arsenal and Spurs.

Origi is arriving in a few weeks. Sturridge will be back early next month. We have reasons to be hopeful.

[slw614]

Listen Prat  i will do this in the style of a somewhat milder Macca

 If you keep showing such basic disrespect to the manager with your constant shite posts and David Brent  jibes at every opportunity,  then frankly you are either a copperplated wum - troll or an idiot .

If you cant respect Brendan a bit more than you have shown so far with your immature abusive shite towards him, then in my opinion you need to frankly Fuck Off and find a forum that will put up with your constant abuse of our manager.

 This thread is not a vehicle for your piss taking and constant shite diatribe about a bloody decent young manager.

It is called an opinion.

[slw614]

I have. Statements such as the one below, however, makes it an unconvincing read.How on earth could the manager, the entire coaching team, scouts and executives 'forget' that?

But that's besides the point I was making . After last season, I'm sure no one at the club - and certainly not the fans - think that we would be buying potentials, or players for the future. We were supposed to build upon last season's success, no reset everything back by two years. We were supposed to solidify our place among the top four.

I don't think many realize the financial implications on the squad if we fail to qualify for the CL this season. We've been losing money for consecutive seasons, and except for a little bookkeeping magic, we would've failed the FFP in the last reporting cycle. Even so, UEFA might still penalize us and is watching us ever so closely. Our wages constitutes 60%+ (can't remember the exact figure) of our revenue - we can't go above 70% (FFP req).

Without the CL prize money and TV and gate receipts, FSG and Brendan's hands will be severely tied in the transfer market. So yes, getting into CL take precedence over everything.

Besides, we're five points off CL qualification (I've excluded Southampton from the equation for obvious reasons). We will qualify if we can get two extra wins than Arsenal and Spurs.

Origi is arriving in a few weeks. Sturridge will be back early next month. We have reasons to be hopeful.

Why are you forgetting Southampton? They have looked twice the side we are. I think people are under-estimating them personally.