Author Topic: Liverpool's Defence  (Read 697087 times)

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2014, 02:11:03 am »
Rather than retype a lot of stuff already said, here is my analysis of it the week it happened:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=308703.msg12014873#msg12014873

As I said then - Sakho moving with Bony DOES create space in behind, and the rest of the defenders could have reacted differently.

However, failure to track Shelvey's run was the biggest error in that goal

And Sakho tracking Bony wasn't an error as such. He would be reasonably expected to do that at any level. Lucas may have been in the vicinity, but Bony starts his run further back and Lucas doesn't see him until he receives. Sakho - IN THAT VERY MOMENT - has a decision to make, and both decisions have consequences. Either decision requires other players to cover or defend actively. You might say that he should have been aware of what was behind him, but all players behind him were marked. He wasn't leaving any free players that would have prevented him from checking with Bony. 8 Liverpool players between Shelvey and the ball before he makes the first pass, and nobody picks up the large, bald-headed midfielder making a sprint towards the box - whether Sakho was there or not. The error wasn't Sakho's. The error was in midfield.

I take it you mean in central midfield, PoP. That means who, then? One or more of Lucas, Gerrard, Henderson at that point in the game, right?

So, who was supposed to track Shelvey's run and who was supposed to mark/cover/interfere with Britton and his ability to make the pass to Shelvey?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2014, 02:17:56 am »
Don't take this the wrong way, but I was 100% certain you had decided the entire article was bollocks when you posted it, purely because of the amount of blame apportioned to Lucas in it. I didn't go back and watch all the goals again, and a number stuck out in my memory anyway because of how fucking annoying they were when we conceded them. I do think (having not watched the goals again) that it's a little harsh on Lucas though, and probably fair on Skrtel.

Having said that, if Lucas and/or Gerrard are meant to be our most defensive midfielder(s) (I'm aware they play the role in different ways) then there are definite questions to be asked when opposition players are able to run at our defence unchallenged. Even more so if both of them are playing deep and supposedly "shielding the defence". It was well documented last season how much poorer our underlying stats were when we played the Lucas/Gerrard double pivot - noticeably so. Even subjectively, we looked FAR better when we switched to one or the other (be it enforced by injury or by choice), I don't think that's necessarily a prejudice so much as it is an observation.

What is "well documented"? That there was a correlation between Gerrard and Lucas being on the pitch at the same time and lower than average 'defensive' stats?

Because I have seen no demonstration of an independent causal connection running from the former to the latter.

I actually watched ALL the goals again, and read through their 'analysis' of each one of them carefully. I also listened to the associated podcast, which included Dave Hendricks (you can imagine the sheer joy that was for me). I may be positively biased/inclined towards Lucas but I am neither lazy nor stupid.
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Online Haggis36

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2014, 02:23:27 am »
What is "well documented"? That there was a correlation between Gerrard and Lucas being on the pitch at the same time and lower than average 'defensive' stats?

Because I have seen no demonstration of an independent causal connection running from the former to the latter.

I actually watched ALL the goals again, and read through their 'analysis' of each one of them carefully. I also listened to the associated podcast, which included Dave Hendricks (you can imagine the sheer joy that was for me). I may be positively biased/inclined towards Lucas but I am neither lazy nor stupid.

It's in the "using stats to talk about Liverpool" thread I believe, ElstonGunn made a lot of posts at the beginning of last season showing that when we played with Lucas-Gerrard we were conceding among the most shots in the league iirc. All the stats were there if you're inclined to go back and look for them.

Not sure if you're trying to imply that I'm lazy or stupid in your second paragraph. I'm neither, by the way.  ;)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2014, 02:34:12 am »
I take it you mean in central midfield, PoP. That means who, then? One or more of Lucas, Gerrard, Henderson at that point in the game, right?

So, who was supposed to track Shelvey's run and who was supposed to mark/cover/interfere with Britton and his ability to make the pass to Shelvey?

Gerrard. Although Lucas could have done better in his pressing position, he wasn't in a "bad" one. But Shelvey was Gerrard's man, and I think I said so at the time. This new position suits him better because his responsibilities are defined, and the tracking is left to more able runners (Henderson, Allen, Coutinho last season, and occasionally Lucas - Can, Henderson, Allen, Coutinho this season).
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2014, 03:56:17 am »
Gerrard. Although Lucas could have done better in his pressing position, he wasn't in a "bad" one. But Shelvey was Gerrard's man, and I think I said so at the time. This new position suits him better because his responsibilities are defined, and the tracking is left to more able runners (Henderson, Allen, Coutinho last season, and occasionally Lucas - Can, Henderson, Allen, Coutinho this season).

Thanks for the further explanation, my friend.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2014, 04:03:41 am »
It's in the "using stats to talk about Liverpool" thread I believe, ElstonGunn made a lot of posts at the beginning of last season showing that when we played with Lucas-Gerrard we were conceding among the most shots in the league iirc. All the stats were there if you're inclined to go back and look for them.

Not sure if you're trying to imply that I'm lazy or stupid in your second paragraph. I'm neither, by the way.  ;)

No, mate, I was trying to forestall possible inferences about me.

As for the first part, unless ElstonGunn or anyone else has established causality, or at least controlled for the effects of other plausible and theoretically justified variables, all that has (apparently) been established is a correlation (just off the top of my head, if our fullbacks and forwards and striker were consistently careless in maintaining possession in the opposition half or third, if they gratuitously surrendered possession in 'bad situations', if they failed to apply pressure to either regain possession or delay the counter-attack, any combination of central midfielders and central defenders will appear 'porous' and 'unable to cope' against a competent set of opponents).
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2014, 08:52:17 am »
If I remember correctly, Skrtel created the situation by moving across to the ball rather than letting Sakho contain from the position he was in.

Here is the start position:



Skrtel moves across instead of retreating, and Sakho moves to take his place. This creates the momentary passing lane that gets the ball to Negredo:



Skrtel attempting to intercept puts him in a bad spot that takes him out of the game, whereas if he'd let the ball go, and turned and made a recover run to the line of the ball, he would have been in a better position to defend.

Again, though, no pressure on the ball originally is what gets City in the position to make the play in the first place. After that, it's a domino effect.


so once sterling fails to take a yellow for the side thats where the problems start.

but if sakho is a bit patient he would be able to read their intentions and no way woul dhave picked up negredo as he would have seent he free runner ahead of cissokho.

thats a shocker because despite the runner free he still decides to take negredo as if he doesnt see the runner....if he does then skrtel doesnt have to back off.
skrtel clearly spots danger the other side and realises quite quickly what is happening.


a similar thing happened v arsenal
when sakho has more time to assess whats going on but once again doesnt...he looks like he is 100% focused on giroud not spotting sagna is running toe to toe with cissokho intot he dangerous area behind the fullback.

lucas once again gets the blame eevn though look ta what he had to do once gerarrd and henderson were wrong side of the play?
he had the whole width of the pitch to cover..so he comes near they cross far etc

yeah they got a bit lucky but we were cut open...had sakho read the play he would have been snuffing out sagna.

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Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2014, 10:24:46 am »
My personal opinion on that City goal is that while there were several minor errors, all of them could have been avoided if Cissokho got back into position rather than stood there ball watching.  Once Allen turns and puts Cissokho out of the play I'd have thought the first thing Cissokho is doing is running back behind the ball while he is spotting up Navas. It's brief but Cissokho pauses and then his first five steps are a walk back into position.  Am I being harsh or is that unacceptable?

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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2014, 11:55:15 am »
i agree re cissokho but once he is wrong side its sakhos decision to make.
the decision he makes is shocking and he made it very quickly without any thought as to what the situation was.

also re cissokho...he paid for his poor play with us by not being signed....
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Offline kaz1983

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2014, 03:27:41 pm »
Was it the space between the deeper midfielders i.e. Lucas/Gerrard and the more attacking 3 midfielders that caused Southampton's equalizer? .... my guess is it is or at least a possible reason why *that* goal happened ... I don't know am just asking the question btw

EDIT: just realized Lucas wasn't on the pitch for Southampton's equalizer .. haha
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 03:41:33 pm by BMW »

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2014, 04:19:37 pm »
Positive signs in the centre of defence and Manquillo looks like he could be a bargain. Early of course, but obviously better to have positive signs than negative ones.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2014, 04:20:22 pm »
Positive signs in the centre of defence and Manquillo looks like he could be a bargain. Early of course, but obviously better to have positive signs than negative ones.

Unless you are getting the results of a medical test :D
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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2014, 04:20:51 pm »
Was it the space between the deeper midfielders i.e. Lucas/Gerrard and the more attacking 3 midfielders that caused Southampton's equalizer? .... my guess is it is or at least a possible reason why *that* goal happened ... I don't know am just asking the question btw

EDIT: just realized Lucas wasn't on the pitch for Southampton's equalizer .. haha

 ???

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2014, 04:21:31 pm »
Was it the space between the deeper midfielders i.e. Lucas/Gerrard and the more attacking 3 midfielders that caused Southampton's equalizer? .... my guess is it is or at least a possible reason why *that* goal happened ... I don't know am just asking the question btw

EDIT: just realized Lucas wasn't on the pitch for Southampton's equalizer .. haha

He was.

He and Gerrard watched Clyne run past them. That's what cost the goal
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2014, 08:06:55 am »
There's a nice gif of Southampton's goal in the 'poetry in motion thread':




It pretty much replicates one of PoP's diagrams in the pre-match thread (unfortunately).

See: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=315664.msg13119307#msg13119307

[Couple that with the highlights video from their last pre-season match PoP posted a few pages later in the same thread, and you start scratching your head as to how we managed either not to drill/prepare well enough for that, or to execute well enough what was properly drilled]

Lo and behold, Southampton ran pretty much the same play with a slight variation at the 71st/72nd min. Similar if not identical midfield ball-watching error (this time primarily by Gerrard), slightly worse defending of the passer of the through-ball to the runners (2 this time, which may have led to the different end result) by Lovren, better reaction (distances were more favorable, plus the SFC players kinda both went for the same pass and one had to kind of bow out at the last minute) by GJ and Skrtel, different result. URLs for two sets of 4 each still pictures off the TV follow:

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501260860656865281/photo/1 (Part 1)

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501261596904017921/photo/1 (Part 2)

Those more competent than I may wish to embed those (please!).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 08:32:55 am by GrkStav »
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Offline DyingAtheist

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2014, 08:13:19 am »
Are we feeling that Can is going to help tighten this up a little bit (if he's brought in to the first team) or is it still more of a system problem than an individual one? I feel like our midfield has been readily ran through for the past few years now, thus giving the defence lots of problems they shouldn't have.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2014, 08:21:26 am »
Based on the fact that we basically nearly got scored on again via the same play with Allen in lieu of Lucas and with Gerrard now doing the major ball-watching and Lovren not quite defending as well as he actually did for the actual goal (the passer in the second 71st/72nd minute managed to 'get turned' and to deliver the pass whilst facing Mignolet's goal), I think it's a drilling and concentration issue more than a personnel issue, although a good case can be made that it's a personnel issue more than a drilling/instruction issue.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 08:34:27 am by GrkStav »
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2014, 08:44:08 am »
Looking at the goal again, shouldn't Skrtel move across and plug the gap left after Lovren picks up Tadic? He points Tadic out and sees the danger presumably, but is still rooted to his spot with no one to mark.

Offline pjshaun

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2014, 08:57:12 am »
Lucas just stood there ball watching as Clyne glided past him. Lucas should have stayed with Clyne, although he still would have been too slow to catch up I think.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2014, 09:08:36 am »
Lucas just stood there ball watching as Clyne glided past him. Lucas should have stayed with Clyne, although he still would have been too slow to catch up I think.
the not tracking the run was an error to a point but bear in mind he wont be tracking back to get goalside anyway because of the offside line.

you can also argue skrtel maybe should have been nearer.

louvren got too close and as a result couldnt read the players intentions.
a similar thing happend shortly afterwards.


you can put this down to a good bit of skill and bad presuming from lucas and skrtel and the mistake by louvren
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2014, 09:13:22 am »
Lucas just stood there ball watching as Clyne glided past him. Lucas should have stayed with Clyne, although he still would have been too slow to catch up I think.

Johnson just stood there and didn't put pressure on the winger just as Sterling, who moved away in the first place, Lovren just stood there and didn't tackle properly, Lucas stood there and couldn't react, Gerrard stood there and watched, Skrtel stood and watched what's going on in front of him too long without moving to the left..

Massive dip in concentration all around..
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 09:20:07 am by steveeastend »
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2014, 09:21:47 am »
thats not the real issue in this game anyway.
the issue is why did southampton get a foothold in the game after we took the lead?

this is an old problem returning...early last season without luis the same thing was happening.

also note the style of fullbacks we played to play higher doesnt really fit well enough.
if you want to use them as passers they have to be higher quality in the passing deprtment.

johnsons has always needed a 1st touch....manquillo despite looking ok defensivley isnt anywhere near as confident as juanfran with the ball.
flanno and moreno should help the sides no end so we have far better outs
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2014, 01:14:41 pm »
They looked all over place at times, specially for the goal. Lucas not tracking the run, Skrtel not getting across to defend, Lovern getting too close the Tadek, it's a new defense again, so I guess they are still getting used to each other.

The other incident was when Southampton should have scored again where the shot was straight at Mignolet and really should have gone in, defense just completely switched off.

Just not good enough.

Offline Lippy The Lion

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2014, 01:20:41 pm »
I know its only the 1st game, and there are new players to bed in, but if we see repeats of lapses like this at what point do we say this is a systemic thing rather than the players? There are people on this forum who were saying this last season, and I'm worried nothing is going to change.

Concentration levels, dropping deep under pressure, not tracking runners, are these coaching or player issues?
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Offline Madan

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2014, 01:34:11 pm »
I know its only the 1st game, and there are new players to bed in, but if we see repeats of lapses like this at what point do we say this is a systemic thing rather than the players? There are people on this forum who were saying this last season, and I'm worried nothing is going to change.

Concentration levels, dropping deep under pressure, not tracking runners, are these coaching or player issues?

I think it's best to give it a few more months. If we continue to look so awful at the back, by say October/November time, then it would be fair for serious questions to be asked about his defensive coaching credentials.

I have to say i'm worried about any potential head to head against Real Madrid, Bayern or Barca in the CL group stage. Really would be best if we avoided these three.

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2014, 01:40:51 pm »
I know its only the 1st game, and there are new players to bed in, but if we see repeats of lapses like this at what point do we say this is a systemic thing rather than the players? There are people on this forum who were saying this last season, and I'm worried nothing is going to change.

Concentration levels, dropping deep under pressure, not tracking runners, are these coaching or player issues?
I already think it's systemic.


I thought the same last season, to be honest.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2014, 01:57:17 pm »
They looked all over place at times, specially for the goal. Lucas not tracking the run, Skrtel not getting across to defend, Lovern getting too close the Tadek, it's a new defense again, so I guess they are still getting used to each other.

The other incident was when Southampton should have scored again where the shot was straight at Mignolet and really should have gone in, defense just completely switched off.

Just not good enough.

I don't think Lovren was too tight at all to Tadic. It's easy to say that in hindsight because he was done by a backheel, but Tadic ran from behind him, then checked to receive, so Lovren had to get tight to prevent the turn. If he'd dropped off him, he might not have been done by the backheel, but Tadic would have been able to turn and then we would have had Clyne AND Tadic in positions to shoot, being defended by one player. It's possible he could maybe have gone an arms length away at most, but in the pattern of play AS it was occurring, Lovren made the best decision he could have, given the circumstances.
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Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2014, 01:57:27 pm »
Johnson just stood there and didn't put pressure on the winger just as Sterling, who moved away in the first place, Lovren just stood there and didn't tackle properly, Lucas stood there and couldn't react, Gerrard stood there and watched, Skrtel stood and watched what's going on in front of him too long without moving to the left..

Massive dip in concentration all around..

Regarding Sterling  and Johnson I think you are missing the winger on the touch line. Clyne is the fullback carrying the ball but you can see the shadow presumably of the winger on the touchline that they were covering. The winger later appears in the bottom right hand corner as Clyne shoots for goal.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2014, 01:59:48 pm »
the not tracking the run was an error to a point but bear in mind he wont be tracking back to get goalside anyway because of the offside line.

you can also argue skrtel maybe should have been nearer.

louvren got too close and as a result couldnt read the players intentions.
a similar thing happend shortly afterwards.


you can put this down to a good bit of skill and bad presuming from lucas and skrtel and the mistake by louvren

The offside line was where Skrtel and Manquillo where, though, not where Lovren was. So he should have been tracked. Also, it was in the box, so relying on the defenders to play offside was dangerous, if that's what he was thinking. I don't think he was. I think he switched off and got caught watching the ball. Nothing more than that.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2014, 02:02:34 pm »
I don't think Lovren was too tight at all to Tadic. It's easy to say that in hindsight because he was done by a backheel, but Tadic ran from behind him, then checked to receive, so Lovren had to get tight to prevent the turn. If he'd dropped off him, he might not have been done by the backheel, but Tadic would have been able to turn and then we would have had Clyne AND Tadic in positions to shoot, being defended by one player. It's possible he could maybe have gone an arms length away at most, but in the pattern of play AS it was occurring, Lovren made the best decision he could have, given the circumstances.

Fair enough then, think Lovern was the least to blame in that encounter anyway.

Quick question, looking a the positioning of Skrtel on their goal, with no-one near him and Manquilo covering the only person in the box, why was he there? I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, it just seemed he was quite out of position for me, considering the danger was building from the left side and he was all the way over on the right?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 02:09:23 pm by Chakan »

Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2014, 02:05:44 pm »
My feeling is that there are a few small mistakes.

1. Lucas should never have lost sight of Clyne. A subtle forearm across Clyne's line and running with him would have stopped the goal IMO.
2. Skrtel is a few yard too far across to the right. He needs to trust Manquillo a bit more and sweep behind Lovren.
3. Johnson comes out too early to cover Sterling. He should have waited for the pass.
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Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2014, 02:08:03 pm »
Fair enough then, think Lovern was the least to blame in that encounter anyway.

Quick question, looking a the positioning of Skrtel on their goal, with no-one near him and Lovern covering the only person in the box, why was he there? I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, it just seemed he was quite out of position for me, considering the danger was building from the left side and he was all the way over on the right?

I think Skrtel was anticipating that if he moved across then the player Manquillo is marking would attack the space he's in.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2014, 02:09:20 pm »
Fair enough then, think Lovern was the least to blame in that encounter anyway.

Quick question, looking a the positioning of Skrtel on their goal, with no-one near him and Lovern covering the only person in the box, why was he there? I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, it just seemed he was quite out of position for me, considering the danger was building from the left side and he was all the way over on the right?

No idea. Same as the others, I suppose - fell asleep ball-watching. The only three players switched on in that whole passage of play were Lovren, Mignolet and Manquillo. Everyone else defended like kids.
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Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2014, 02:09:37 pm »
There's a nice gif of Southampton's goal in the 'poetry in motion thread':




It pretty much replicates one of PoP's diagrams in the pre-match thread (unfortunately).

See: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=315664.msg13119307#msg13119307

[Couple that with the highlights video from their last pre-season match PoP posted a few pages later in the same thread, and you start scratching your head as to how we managed either not to drill/prepare well enough for that, or to execute well enough what was properly drilled]

Lo and behold, Southampton ran pretty much the same play with a slight variation at the 71st/72nd min. Similar if not identical midfield ball-watching error (this time primarily by Gerrard), slightly worse defending of the passer of the through-ball to the runners (2 this time, which may have led to the different end result) by Lovren, better reaction (distances were more favorable, plus the SFC players kinda both went for the same pass and one had to kind of bow out at the last minute) by GJ and Skrtel, different result. URLs for two sets of 4 each still pictures off the TV follow:

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501260860656865281/photo/1 (Part 1)

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501261596904017921/photo/1 (Part 2)

Those more competent than I may wish to embed those (please!).

Lucas falls asleep.

Skrtel need's to close the space when Lovren is taken out of position.

Nice play but silly goal to give away. Match fitness is an excuse for the lack of concentration but no surprise it was Lucas and Skrtel two of our lesser rated players.

Mignolet won us the 3 points every bit as much as Sterling and Sturridge's contributions. Manquilo solid, Johnson underwhelming as ever. Think the team that finishes the season first choice will be a lot different than yesterday.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2014, 02:11:11 pm »
I think Skrtel was anticipating that if he moved across then the player Manquillo is marking would attack the space he's in.

So it's more of Skrtel not trusting Manquilo to handle the player he's marking?

No idea. Same as the others, I suppose - fell asleep ball-watching. The only three players switched on in that whole passage of play were Lovren, Mignolet and Manquillo. Everyone else defended like kids.

I suppose with 2 new people in defense it will take time for them to move as a unit. Just seems we're having the same problem as last year, defense not really operating as a fully functioning unit.

Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2014, 02:13:52 pm »
So it's more of Skrtel not trusting Manquilo to handle the player he's marking?

I suppose with 2 new people in defense it will take time for them to move as a unit. Just seems we're having the same problem as last year, defense not really operating as a fully functioning unit.

I think it's a well worked set play and the player is running across Manquillo for the very reason of distracting Skrtel. Looking at it again I actually think Johnson is anticipating Sterling will go to Clyne and that is the reason he steps across to cover the winger out of the picture.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2014, 02:25:29 pm »
Looking at the goal again, shouldn't Skrtel move across and plug the gap left after Lovren picks up Tadic? He points Tadic out and sees the danger presumably, but is still rooted to his spot with no one to mark.

Yes. I rewatched the match again and paid close attention to defensive spacing of the back four. I noticed that this occurred several times, particularly as a consequence of Skrtel being static.

Southampton's equaliser has already been discussed and is simple to analyse in my view. Lucas should have tracked the run and Skrtel should have been in a better covering position.

Apart from that occasion I spotted two fundamental issues which occurred more than once:

The spacing between the back four as mentioned. If I knew how to post screen shots, I would. Perhaps someone else could do the hard work. Many times Manquillo and Skrtel were within three yards of each other with at least double the distance between Skrtel and Lovren. Ideally the back four should be spaced evenly depending upon the position of the attacking threat.

The other noticeable issue was Gerrards habit of standing still in defence. At least three times I noticed that he allowed the opposition to drift by him while watching the ball. The most apparent occurrence was when Clyne nearly scored a second. Three Southampton players drifted past Gerrard into the box to create an overload. Gerrard did not move from the D. It would be great if someone could post the highlight. I believe that this is simply a lack of defensive instinct on his part which will be very difficult to coach into him now. For example, a player like Mascherano would instinctively sense that a dangerous situation was developing and plug the gap.

I do hope that the spacing issues are addressed by Rodgers as they seem to be easily fixed. While I am not a coach, there must be a number of drills to have the appropriate movements ingrained. One thinks back to Sacchi's Milan as an example.

Offline Teh_Red

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2014, 02:38:00 pm »
No idea. Same as the others, I suppose - fell asleep ball-watching. The only three players switched on in that whole passage of play were Lovren, Mignolet and Manquillo. Everyone else defended like kids.

Do you think it's interesting that only those which were Rodgers' signing were the ones switched on? Is that because they were bought to defend 1v1 situations as supposed to a Rafa/Steve Clarke system?

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2014, 02:40:13 pm »
Do you think it's interesting that only those which were Rodgers' signing were the ones switched on? Is that because they were bought to defend 1v1 situations as supposed to a Rafa/Steve Clarke system?

It's an interesting point, but I don't know. Manquillo and Lovren were probably the most switched on because they were the new boys and wanted to impress. Mignolet had to be switched on as the ball was in a threatening area. The ball-watching from the rest, though, just seems to be very bad habit, as we do it a lot. It's one of the downfalls of zonal defending. You need high levels of concentration for the full 90 minutes. That's why Rafa rotated a lot, to make sure fatigue wasn't a huge factor in the concentration levels of the players.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2014, 02:46:58 pm »
You can put Baresi and Beckenbauer into central defence, flanked by Carlos Alberto and Maldini, and it won't fix a systemic problem.