Topic: Liverpool's Defence

[GrkStav]

I hate to say it but to me the first mistake was coming from Sterling as he was covering space behind him without any need as there was Johnson behind and nobody running into it. He moved AWAY instead of going into a tackle and trying to prevent him from passing.

It was the FIRST mistake in a chain of mistakes, a collective dip in concentration.

Did you catch the first little moving of the ball to his right by Clyne that gets Sterling to back up and turn his body a bit? Clyne then executes the pass to Tadic and takes off on his run, pauses and then goes again.

[El Lobo]

Personally I think their goal should be put down to an exceptional piece of skill by Tadic rather than anything we did wrong.

It was, but our two 'holding' midfielders who should he tracking those sort of runs both literally just watched it happen.

[GrkStav]

It was, but our two 'holding' midfielders who should he tracking those sort of runs both literally just watched it happen.

Hey, at least Lucas tracked the initial check run of Ward-Prowse pretty well and then released him to the watchful eye of Gerrard and the referee (check out the referee's quick run towards Tadic!!!! Nice one, M.C.!). That should count for something, no?

 

[steveeastend]

Did you catch the first little moving of the ball to his right by Clyne that gets Sterling to back up and turn his body a bit? Clyne then executes the pass to Tadic and takes off on his run, pauses and then goes again.

To me, this was a normal game situation where Sterling acts a little too passive considering the time and space any defending team should allow an attacking team on a pro level.

[Libero]

We need a settled back four, only then we'll get a proper assessment on the qualities of our defence.

It is very early in the season to see, especially with Moreno for to figure, as well as the right back tussle.

As a centre-back pairing, I'd still like to see Sakho and Lovren given a go, at some point, but it will be difficult to dislodge Skrtel for sure. Good ol' Martin seems to rise to the occasion whenever competition is added; lots of love and respect for that!

Sakho will get games of course, and he now knows what the expectations & demands of the EPL are;  The trouble is, at times (and only at times), it's a case of "built like Tarzan, plays like Jane" with him. 

I'm sure he'll come good, and we'll need quality in this area over a long long season that's for sure.

[Keita Success]

I'm a Sakho man myself. Sakho over Skrtel, for the long run anyway. However, the team's gone through so many changes. So I think a settled defence would be fantastic for the team and if for a while, it's Skrtel and Lovren, that's fine by me. I also wonder whether Rodgers might pick cbs depending on their qualities, something which not many people do.

[Robbo1980]

I think we have to accept there were multiple failings along the way

[Funky_Gibbons]

He's still a young manager who'll get better and learn from his mistakes. If you really think the bad defence was all down individual errors.. Well there's nothing more for me to add. 

As long as we have your experience to draw from to tell us where he's going wrong.

[GrkStav]

For their goal, who should be 'marking' Clyne originally, if anyone, in this formation and with this personnel? Who should be marking their winger who's hugging the touchline?

Does Coutinho have any defensive duties at that phase? Should he have dropped to the level of Sterling, or does our 4231 in attack turn into a 442 or 4411 in defense once the opposition is in our half of the pitch?

[Chakan]

For their goal, who should be 'marking' Clyne originally, if anyone, in this formation and with this personnel? Who should be marking their winger who's hugging the touchline?

Does Coutinho have any defensive duties at that phase? Should he have dropped to the level of Sterling, or does our 4231 in attack turn into a 442 or 4411 in defense once the opposition is in our half of the pitch?

Don't we use Zonal marking? So I would assume if he runs into a players zone then that player should be marking him.

[brownie 09]

For me I always thought one of our biggest issues last year was the fact that we never had the quality up top to come of the bench that could also press highly. We relied heavily on sterling phil Suarez and sturridge to press all game as the option to come on where aspas and Moses who simply wernt good enough.

Now Suarez could do that but the rest would struggle greatly. They could probably do it for 60mins which ties in with the fact we done quite well in the first 45mins of games,

Now that we have depth up there in lallana markovic lambert and possibly one more I really expect it to help our defence now. Also having can and allen fit to rotate with Henderson and Gerrard will help greatly.

Not to mention the players added to the defence

[GrkStav]

Don't we use Zonal marking? So I would assume if he runs into a players zone then that player should be marking him.

Cool. So, whose 'zone' was Clyne in when he first received the ball, took two dribbles and executed the pass?

Thereafter, once he is on his run, he's clearly in Lucas's and then also Gerrard's 'zones'.

[Kopenhagen]

Don't we use Zonal marking? So I would assume if he runs into a players zone then that player should be marking him.

Didn't seem that way when were defending corners last Sunday. I can remember Lovren having a man to mark.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Didn't seem that way when were defending corners last Sunday. I can remember Lovren having a man to mark.

You can defend zonally in open play and man-mark on set pieces. They are considered different phases of the game with different "rules"

[GrkStav]

You can defend zonally in open play and man-mark on set pieces. They are considered different phases of the game with different "rules"

So, whose zone was Clyne in when he first got the ball, dribbled and then executed the pass to Tadic?

[GrkStav]

With zonal marking, it appears that the defending player has a dilemma when two (or more, I suppose) opposition players enter into his 'defensive zone', whether simultaneously or close succession, especially from different directions and moving in different directions.

[PhaseOfPlay]

So, whose zone was Clyne in when he first got the ball, dribbled and then executed the pass to Tadic?

He was in Sterling's zone originally, who didn't put any pressure on the ball (going back to the list I mentioned earlier on why goals are scored). Once he passed Sterling, though, he became Lucas' man, and Lucas committed the cardinal sin of watching the ball go to Tadic and forgetting to look at the man running as well. Gerrard committed the cardinal sin of ball watching and not shifting across or dropping in. And Skrtel made the mistake of not shifting across the line 5 yards to balance out the defensive line (you could argue that he was doubling up with Manquillo, but there was no need).

Johnson's part was actually negligible. He split between covering Sterling and covering the possible outside pass, although it's questionable whether that should have been seen as much of a danger.

[PhaseOfPlay]

With zonal marking, it appears that the defending player has a dilemma when two (or more, I suppose) opposition players enter into his 'defensive zone', whether simultaneously or close succession, especially from different directions and moving in different directions.

That's the weakness of zonal defending. You can overload zones easily if you're prepared to break your own attacking shape. Thankfully, in English football, most British coaches are deathly terrified of breaking their shape. See Roy Hodgson for reference

[GrkStav]

That's the weakness of zonal defending. You can overload zones easily if you're prepared to break your own attacking shape. Thankfully, in English football, most British coaches are deathly terrified of breaking their shape. See Roy Hodgson for reference

Yes. His teams make 'pong' appear as an exciting, high-graphic intensity, multi-character video-game.

[GrkStav]

He was in Sterling's zone originally, who didn't put any pressure on the ball (going back to the list I mentioned earlier on why goals are scored). Once he passed Sterling, though, he became Lucas' man, and Lucas committed the cardinal sin of watching the ball go to Tadic and forgetting to look at the man running as well. Gerrard committed the cardinal sin of ball watching and not shifting across or dropping in. And Skrtel made the mistake of not shifting across the line 5 yards to balance out the defensive line (you could argue that he was doubling up with Manquillo, but there was no need).

Johnson's part was actually negligible. He split between covering Sterling and covering the possible outside pass, although it's questionable whether that should have been seen as much of a danger.

Thanks, mate. I think I even got the underlying principle of assigning responsibilities (and thus recognizing failings). Imagine that! 

[FoolForPool]

Thank you guys, this is very educational.  I enjoy football much more when I understand what is happening (or what should be happening ;-)

[new-red]

some one should post Carra's MNF analysis of the goals. In the end its bad defending all around but Skrtel is responsible for big space that clyne is allowed to run into.

Look at the video. It seems like fairly basic defensive positional awareness.

[PhaseOfPlay]

some one should post Carra's MNF analysis of the goals. In the end its bad defending all around but Skrtel is responsible for big space that clyne is allowed to run into.

Look at the video. It seems like fairly basic defensive positional awareness.

And who was responsible for allowing Clyne to run into the space unheeded?

[GrkStav]

And who was responsible for allowing Clyne to run into the space unheeded?

Lucas Leiva (98%) + Steven Gerrard (2%). 

[PhaseOfPlay]

Lucas Leiva (98%) + Steven Gerrard (2%). 

I'd go 80% Lucas, 10% Gerrard, 10% Sterling

[DanA]

I'd be interested in Carra take. He's always going to look at it from a CB's point of view I suppose. To borrow a basketball term I'd have thought Skrtel's mistake was indirect in that he should have provided "help" defence. A top CB should have come across earlier but it wasn't his primary job.

[JonnyCigarettes®]

I'd be interested in Carra take.

Meh

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'd be interested in Carra take. He's always going to look at it from a CB's point of view I suppose. To borrow a basketball term I'd have thought Skrtel's mistake was indirect in that he should have provided "help" defence. A top CB should have come across earlier but it wasn't his primary job.

By zonal defending principles, he should have shifted across with Lovren to create balance. But it was the lesser of all the mistakes that were made, in magnitude. A free run is a free run, and it's as bad as a free header. We concede a lot of goals because runners from midfield aren't picked up. Thinking about this last game and reading Surfer's posts, I am inclined to now agree that there's a systemic problem, and I think the problem is that Rodgers thinks of defending in purely zonal terms in open play. I think he relies on the defenders making good 1v1 decisions, but probably doesn't take into account the blurred lines between a player moving from one zone into another. That's where we get broken down nowadays.

[GrkStav]

I'd go 80% Lucas, 10% Gerrard, 10% Sterling

Well, one cannot be too lenient towards one's own bias (in my case, I mean).

Glad I erred on the side of according TOO MUCH culpability to Lucas.

[bigbear]

I'd be interested in Carra take. He's always going to look at it from a CB's point of view I suppose. To borrow a basketball term I'd have thought Skrtel's mistake was indirect in that he should have provided "help" defence. A top CB should have come across earlier but it wasn't his primary job.

No way can Skrtel be across there in time. If he is for me he's in a bad starting position that could leave another area exposed.

[PhaseOfPlay]

No way can Skrtel be across there in time. If he is for me he's in a bad starting position that could leave another area exposed.

He should have been 5 yards closer to Lovren, moving as Lovren was moving to Tadic. By not being there, we lacked balance in defence

[bigbear]

He should have been 5 yards closer to Lovren, moving as Lovren was moving to Tadic. By not being there, we lacked balance in defence

Yes but don't think he can get across to Clyne who smashes it first time anyway.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yes but don't think he can get across to Clyne who smashes it first time anyway.

Oh he couldn't have got across to Clyne from where he actually was. But if he was in the right spot in the first place, he might have made Clyne think twice about shooting first time

[bigbear]

Oh he couldn't have got across to Clyne from where he actually was. But if he was in the right spot in the first place, he might have made Clyne think twice about shooting first time

Yes maybe but the way it worked out I doubt Bobby Moore could have read that and really got there.

I agree that our defenders don't take their position off another defender enough and close gaps (the Gayle goal causes nightmares still) and the hope is that Lovren taking good positions can begin to influence this. I think the keeper needs to take more control too.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yes maybe but the way it worked out I doubt Bobby Moore could have read that and really got there.

I agree that our defenders don't take their position off another defender enough and close gaps (the Gayle goal causes nightmares still) and the hope is that Lovren taking good positions can begin to influence this. I think the keeper needs to take more control too.

Well it didn't cause me any nightmares anymore until you just reminded me

[bigbear]

Well it didn't cause me any nightmares anymore until you just reminded me

That goal is the worry with the likes of Johnson/Skrtel still in the back 4. They are fine in control but when you come under pressure and have to react to flick ons and knock downs it's about being in good positions early and not just throwing your hands up and pointing at someone else.

[GrkStav]

He should have been 5 yards closer to Lovren, moving as Lovren was moving to Tadic. By not being there, we lacked balance in defence

He probably thought that Manquillo might become in greater need of quick assistance whilst guarding Pelle' than Lovren who was marking Tadic 'posting up'.

Clearly, the Clyne full run was not anticipated by anyone (especially Lucas primarily, then Gerrard).

Given that you had diagrammed that run as a possible play to be run by Southampton in the pre-match thread, one wonders what happened.

My guess is that Lucas was still winded from having had to 'cover' for Lovren and attempt to track the speedy Ward-Prowse and block his horizontal pass/cross (which he actually didn't) in the preceding play that resulted in the throw-in that began the play that resulted in SFC's goal. He went into 'energy conservation', I'll use my nous to cover the passing angle from Tadic to Clyne, mode. Which, of course, he did. Until he realized that he hadn't anticipated THAT kind of pass from Tadic. No one else did, either.

[PhaseOfPlay]

He probably thought that Manquillo might become in greater need of quick assistance whilst guarding Pelle' than Lovren who was marking Tadic 'posting up'.

Clearly, the Clyne full run was not anticipated by anyone (especially Lucas primarily, then Gerrard).

Given that you had diagrammed that run as a possible play to be run by Southampton in the pre-match thread, one wonders what happened.

My guess is that Lucas was still winded from having had to 'cover' for Lovren and attempt to track the speedy Ward-Prowse and block his horizontal pass/cross (which he actually didn't) in the preceding play that resulted in the throw-in that began the play that resulted in SFC's goal. He went into 'energy conservation', I'll use my nous to cover the passing angle from Tadic to Clyne, mode. Which, of course, he did. Until he realized that he hadn't anticipated THAT kind of pass from Tadic. No one else did, either.

You're reaching now

He turned and faced the ball, and turned his back on the man. That was the mistake. Not failing to anticipate the backheel. The backheel is pointless without the run. First rule of penetration combinations - the run dictates the pass. It was just a silly mistake from Lucas to turn and watch the ball and not split his vision between the ball and Clyne. By the time he figured it out, it was too late. Simple mistakes, major consequences - much like most goals conceded.

The main points are - will those players make those same mistakes again?

[GrkStav]

You're reaching now

He turned and faced the ball, and turned his back on the man. That was the mistake. Not failing to anticipate the backheel. The backheel is pointless without the run. First rule of penetration combinations - the run dictates the pass. It was just a silly mistake from Lucas to turn and watch the ball and not split his vision between the ball and Clyne. By the time he figured it out, it was too late. Simple mistakes, major consequences - much like most goals conceded.

The main points are - will those players make those same mistakes again?

Reaching or not (in this particular case), I can attest to the negative cognitive and concentration effects of being in oxygen debt, as I am sure you could (as well) with, in addition, the published literature to back it up

NO back-heel magic pass, no goal. Clyne waits/pauses for it to be executed before he takes off. If the magic pass is prevented, blocked or deflected, the run, the shot or both do not take place. The completion of Clyne's run is pointless without the backheel pass being executed and around Lovren (who's as surprised as everyone else, as clearly seen by his facial reaction when he realizes it after the fact). If the pass isn't executed or if Lovren blocks it, Clyne could have completed the run anyway with no effect whatsoever on us (save his being out of position and deep into our defensive third while we started a possible counter-attack).

Same penetrating pass by Tadic in the early 72nd minute, after having turned and faced Lovren. Possible recipients Ward-Prowse, who's not tracked at all by Gerrard, and Clyne, who's tracked by Johnson (having first run right in front him, no need for Johnson to do swivel-heads and the rest of it).

I'll add the URLs for the pictures here:

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/502957283215540224/photo/1

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/502957953033318402/photo/1

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/502958733492617217/photo/1

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501260860656865281/photo/1

and

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501261596904017921/photo/1

Just because they didn't score, doesn't mean it wasn't as grave an error by Gerrard to let Ward-Prowse walz right into the area, nor of Lovren to allow Tadic to 'get turned' and deliver the pass.

It's Lucas (and Johnson) who are being excoriated by the various podcasts, who are being called negative names, etc. And this after a win!

[PhaseOfPlay]

Reaching or not (in this particular case), I can attest to the negative cognitive and concentration effects of being in oxygen debt, as I am sure you could (as well) with, in addition, the published literature to back it up

NO back-heel magic pass, no goal. Clyne waits/pauses for it to be executed before he takes off. If the magic pass is prevented, blocked or deflected, the run, the shot or both do not take place. The completion of Clyne's run is pointless without the backheel pass being executed and around Lovren (who's as surprised as everyone else, as clearly seen by his facial reaction when he realizes it after the fact). If the pass isn't executed or if Lovren blocks it, Clyne could have completed the run anyway with no effect whatsoever on us (save his being out of position and deep into our defensive third while we started a possible counter-attack).

Same penetrating pass by Tadic in the early 72nd minute, after having turned and faced Lovren. Possible recipients Ward-Prowse, who's not tracked at all by Gerrard, and Clyne, who's tracked by Johnson (having first run right in front him, no need for Johnson to do swivel-heads and the rest of it).

I'll add the URLs for the pictures here:

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/502957283215540224/photo/1

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/502957953033318402/photo/1

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/502958733492617217/photo/1

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501260860656865281/photo/1

and

https://twitter.com/GrkStav/status/501261596904017921/photo/1

Just because they didn't score, doesn't mean it wasn't as grave an error by Gerrard to let Ward-Prowse walz right into the area, nor of Lovren to allow Tadic to 'get turned' and deliver the pass.

It's Lucas (and Johnson) who are being excoriated by the various podcasts, who are being called negative names, etc. And this after a win!

No run, no back heel pass