Author Topic: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.  (Read 49921 times)

Offline Upinsmoke

  • Is a grump, get used to it.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,196
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #200 on: September 24, 2013, 12:00:40 pm »
I can't say I am that informed about tactics but can I asked what is needed for us to maybe play passes out wide and particularly into the channels? It seems that with Southampton playing a high line and Sturridge and Aspas being good at that why we didn't get them into those positions and play balls into the channels for them to run onto?

Can this not be done by a long pass? Do we need to be higher up the field to do that? Is it because the likes of Gerrard were not able to shake off the pressing to be able to get their head up and do that?

Aspas went outwide quite often, numerous times he went wide only for toure to bomb forward and cut inside rather than passing to him. Weird.

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,452
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #201 on: September 24, 2013, 12:07:35 pm »
Maybe I am Hank but feel it is deserved criticism. Mostly because I'm really disappointed in him after making some good progress. It's made me question certain things again, doubts I once firmly held from the early days of his tenure. You quote Alan saying he needs to become familiar with his own vision again. But think about that for a second. Is a firm vision that easily mislaid? To suggest that after just 4 games, he became results-focused carried away with talk of top 4, and just parked his philosophy (which I all but said but in less flattering "champagne" terms) causes me great concern. A vision should be like principles. Fixed and resolute. Not something conveniently adopted in press conferences when advocating for time to deliver.

I'm also deeply disappointed that the reality check wasn't delivered against his old club last week when we lost our 100% record. Aside from being lucky to come away with a point, the fact we were almost embarrassed by Laudrup's team in the second half, giving Rodgers a taste of his own medicine if you like, should have been sufficient to rethink and elicit a response. Southampton at home was not a time to complacently shrug it off, let your ego rule and tinker. Perhaps when we were 3-up with 15 to go, but not from the first whistle.

Which is why I think your "we just played badly aided by team selection" assessment is dangerously superficial. And I pray Rodgers isn't saying the same thing to himself in the bathroom mirror. Personally I think this was much more than just a bad day at the office compounded by injuries, as I explained in my post. It exposed some underlying fundamental flaws and realities that need dealing with and quickly.

I completely agree it's an extremely tough job though, to simultaneously build for the future and deliver in the present. But I'm afraid that's the deal when you're given the reigns of a five-time European Cup winning club, a sizeable transfer kitty, and paid a seven-figure salary.


I really think you are being excessively harsh here. Its still very early in the season, a lot of new players have to bed in and a lot of technically gifted players that give a very different emphasis to the side are missing. I still think problems persist in the middle and missing key fullbacks (Cissohko and Johnson) means the side lacks width at the minute. This gives a very different look to the side that could suddenly become a much better looking side if they return. Vision is one thing, but its far too easy to place too much emphasis on this and see nothing but problems. He has to be pragmatic as well, particularly when the squad is depleted and key components to achieving his vision aren't available.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #202 on: September 24, 2013, 12:08:10 pm »
Aspas went outwide quite often, numerous times he went wide only for toure to bomb forward and cut inside rather than passing to him. Weird.
It also speaks volumes about a vastly experienced CB making that decision. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of confidence in Aspas.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,617
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #203 on: September 24, 2013, 12:16:12 pm »
Maybe I am Hank but feel it is deserved criticism. Mostly because I'm really disappointed in him after making some good progress. It's made me question certain things again, doubts I once firmly held from the early days of his tenure. You quote Alan saying he needs to become familiar with his own vision again. But think about that for a second. Is a firm vision that easily mislaid? To suggest that after just 4 games, he became results-focused carried away with talk of top 4, and just parked his philosophy (which I all but said but in less flattering "champagne" terms) causes me great concern. A vision should be like principles. Fixed and resolute. Not something conveniently adopted in press conferences when advocating for time to deliver.

I'm also deeply disappointed that the reality check wasn't delivered against his old club last week when we lost our 100% record. Aside from being lucky to come away with a point, the fact we were almost embarrassed by Laudrup's team in the second half, giving Rodgers a taste of his own medicine if you like, should have been sufficient to rethink and elicit a response. Southampton at home was not a time to complacently shrug it off, let your ego rule and tinker. Perhaps when we were 3-up with 15 to go, but not from the first whistle.

Which is why I think your "we just played badly aided by team selection" assessment is dangerously superficial. And I pray Rodgers isn't saying the same thing to himself in the bathroom mirror. Personally I think this was much more than just a bad day at the office compounded by injuries, as I explained in my post. It exposed some underlying fundamental flaws and realities that need dealing with and quickly.

I completely agree it's an extremely tough job though, to simultaneously build for the future and deliver in the present. But I'm afraid that's the deal when you're given the reigns of a five-time European Cup winning club, a sizeable transfer kitty, and paid a seven-figure salary.


To be fair though Rodgers didn't appear to shrug it off. He commented how bad we were technically (which obviously points to more than just a one off) and wasn't happy that despite the defenders on the field we still let in a set piece goal.

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,548
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #204 on: September 24, 2013, 12:21:07 pm »
I'll put it one last way...

We passed up Eriksen. We then loaned out Suso supposedly to enhance his development. And then basically signed another Suso in Alberto.

If someone can explain the logic there, go right ahead.

While we're at it, why did we sign Aspas only to send Borini on loan? Now combine the fees in there for Alberto and Aspas. That could have been Eriksen and Suso and Borini. Instead, it's Aspas and Alberto and two players on loan.

We can raise questionmarks. But we've started the season with good results. Let's remember that too. Let's remember that it's too early to judge our players after a handful of PL games.


        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,111
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #205 on: September 24, 2013, 12:39:05 pm »
Sorry but passing up Eriksen (who was keen to sign incidentally when Dortmund opted for Mikihyran) AND loaning out Suso deserves a kick in the balls.

Much harder than the one poor Coutinho received.

I think we went with a concurrent plan of getting an attacking reinforcement and a defensive reinforcement, then when both were going nowhere, decided to rely on Coutinho to carry us through until Suarez's return, while we threw everything into 2 defenders. What it says about our scouting or our prioritising I'll leave to you.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,292
  • JFT 97
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #206 on: September 24, 2013, 12:42:43 pm »
That´s the big question. To me, after the Norwich win away last season, 5:2, we started to gave up on it step by step, not entirely but nothing from the initial plan he started out with IMO.


For me it changed between the Swansea and Spurs away games in November last year when there was a players meeting and Rodgers came out in the press and told Gerrard to play his natural game.

Some stats from May last year RE-long passes.



Considering the size of our front three that really is an incredible number of long passes by Gerrard add in the number of long passes by Allen who didn't play that many games and Agger and it is pretty clear we abandoned the short passing game very early in the season.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Online Draex

  • Geek God of Typing Letters. Hugo unleashes Jaws? Purveyor of fuel products in Kent.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,966
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #207 on: September 24, 2013, 12:47:19 pm »
For me it changed between the Swansea and Spurs away games in November last year when there was a players meeting and Rodgers came out in the press and told Gerrard to play his natural game.

Some stats from May last year RE-long passes.

Considering the size of our front three that really is an incredible number of long passes by Gerrard add in the number of long passes by Allen who didn't play that many games and Agger and it is pretty clear we abandoned the short passing game very early in the season.

There is a reason Gerrard is called "hollywood" - lovely when it comes off, a complete anti-possession based failure when it constantly doesn't.

Surely all the pieces are adding up now to say what is the elephant in the room?

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #208 on: September 24, 2013, 12:49:25 pm »
For me it changed between the Swansea and Spurs away games in November last year when there was a players meeting and Rodgers came out in the press and told Gerrard to play his natural game.



Yeah, around that time, Rodgers even mentioned it in this interview today on talksport..

The question will be how Rodgers will react on all this? I reckon he will take on one game at the time and adjust the tactics somewhere in between the way he plans for the future and the way it´s possible now considering the circumstances..

Considering the stat... 393 is way too much when looking at the average number of long passes hit by the players listed here. I especially noticed it this seasons where I thought quite sometime.. not again Stevie as it just puts us under pressure even more.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:54:47 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Johnny Foreigner

  • King of the Trabbies. Major Mod Thruster.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,843
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #209 on: September 24, 2013, 12:54:54 pm »
Yeah, around that time, Rodgers even mentioned it in this interview today on talksport..

The question will be how Rodgers will react on all this? I reckon he will take one game the time and adjust the tactics somewhere in between the way he plans for the future and the way it´s possible now considering the "circumstances".. ;)

Considering the stat... 393 is way too much when looking at the average number of long passes hit but the players listed here..

Took this quote from the anfield wrap thread..

If Gerrard plays a match on the saturday and doing light recovery until tuesday at least - and I assume friday is easy training due to next match - he basically trains less then me and i belong in the "fat bastard" thread..


“You need to analyse the people and what age he is at and the body type he is,” explained Rodgers.

“One of the biggest things in our method of work is the recovery method. Stevie for example plays on the Saturday, recovers on the Sunday doing pulls, stretch and massage, on the Tuesday recovers further with maybe a light jog. It’s a long load of low intensity recovery. Stevie was fit enough to play Saturday, Tuesday and Sunday at the start of this season.

“He has moderate to low intensity recovery programmes. We have individual plans for every player in terms of getting them through the games.”



It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline fowler9_god

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • And could he play!
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #210 on: September 24, 2013, 12:55:08 pm »
I think its a case of BR being put under pressure by the people at the top. Because for FSG the graph has to go only one way (In truth in football there is a setback before an upward curve), they have told BR they need a real challenge for the 4th spot.

I think Rodgers is feeling the heat from somewhere and hence why the change in philosophy. Going for a shot stopper instead of a better keeper with his feet speaks volumes. I think he did say once that when teams pushed up on Swansea, Vorm would just go long. Here Mignolet does to but he doesn't play it to anyone as no one can compete in the air.

So he has tried to mismash his philosophy with others. And in the end he has created a side which is a mismash and hence why the half the team looks to play one way and the other half the other.

Look at Aspas, looking for 1-2's with no one close to him!

I think once Cissokho and Johnson are our fullbacks, we'd look a better side. Once we decide to keep Gerrard fresh is another. Allen/Lucas has potential for me.

And I think we need to go 4-3-3. 3 proper creative players, with 3 midfielders. That's how he needs to go IMO for us to have any chance to look a fluid side like we did at the end of last season.

Justice for the 96

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #211 on: September 24, 2013, 12:57:30 pm »


And I think we need to go 4-3-3. 3 proper creative players, with 3 midfielders. That's how he needs to go IMO for us to have any chance to look a fluid side like we did at the end of last season.



I really liked that set up. It´s refreshing, positive football where everything is possible right til the end instead of sitting back and hoping for the best like in an Hodgson set up.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #212 on: September 24, 2013, 01:01:32 pm »
I really think you are being excessively harsh here. Its still very early in the season, a lot of new players have to bed in and a lot of technically gifted players that give a very different emphasis to the side are missing. I still think problems persist in the middle and missing key fullbacks (Cissohko and Johnson) means the side lacks width at the minute. This gives a very different look to the side that could suddenly become a much better looking side if they return. Vision is one thing, but its far too easy to place too much emphasis on this and see nothing but problems. He has to be pragmatic as well, particularly when the squad is depleted and key components to achieving his vision aren't available.
Sure, things will almost certainly improve when we have Glen and Aly back. And with Coutinho recovered and Suarez back up to speed, yes it will be a more positive balanced discussion.

But that shouldn't excuse the refusal to rehabilitate Kelly on Saturday, a proven quality RB who desperately needs match fitness. Was that pragmatism? Nor should it excuse the logic of the Suso/Eriksen/Alberto conundrum. Or the Aspas buy. Or the massive gaping chasm in our midfield. Or the so-called philosophy which appears to have gone AWOL.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #213 on: September 24, 2013, 01:04:09 pm »
To be fair though Rodgers didn't appear to shrug it off. He commented how bad we were technically (which obviously points to more than just a one off) and wasn't happy that despite the defenders on the field we still let in a set piece goal.
You'll have to forgive me if I don't take what Brendan says in front of a microphone to always correlate to what he says in private.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,111
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #214 on: September 24, 2013, 01:09:14 pm »
Sure, things will almost certainly improve when we have Glen and Aly back. And with Coutinho recovered and Suarez back up to speed, yes it will be a more positive balanced discussion.

But that shouldn't excuse the refusal to rehabilitate Kelly on Saturday, a proven quality RB who desperately needs match fitness. Was that pragmatism? Nor should it excuse the logic of the Suso/Eriksen/Alberto conundrum. Or the Aspas buy. Or the massive gaping chasm in our midfield. Or the so-called philosophy which appears to have gone AWOL.

If Enrique was known to be unfit, I'd have looked at a back 3 with wide attackers as WBs, rather than the set up we had on Saturday. Anything to avoid 4 CBs on the field, which I'd described as a non starter of a formation to those that wanted 3 of our CBs in a back 3 plus Wisdom. There are other issues deriving from earlier decisions and our approach, but they're less immediately rectifiable than that, so to a certain extent we'll just have to suck it up until things resolve themselves.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #215 on: September 24, 2013, 01:11:49 pm »
While we're at it, why did we sign Aspas only to send Borini on loan?
I still can't quite comprehend that one either to be honest. Hardly a ringing endorsement of your first signing, costing £11m, who played under you before, on the back of an injury-plagued season. The "Welsh Xavi" didn't get the same treatment.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #216 on: September 24, 2013, 01:18:23 pm »
One bad result, and the knives come out.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Dubred

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,436
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #217 on: September 24, 2013, 01:19:23 pm »
I think its a case of BR being put under pressure by the people at the top. Because for FSG the graph has to go only one way (In truth in football there is a setback before an upward curve), they have told BR they need a real challenge for the 4th spot.

I think Rodgers is feeling the heat from somewhere and hence why the change in philosophy. Going for a shot stopper instead of a better keeper with his feet speaks volumes. I think he did say once that when teams pushed up on Swansea, Vorm would just go long. Here Mignolet does to but he doesn't play it to anyone as no one can compete in the air.

So he has tried to mismash his philosophy with others. And in the end he has created a side which is a mismash and hence why the half the team looks to play one way and the other half the other.

Look at Aspas, looking for 1-2's with no one close to him!

I think once Cissokho and Johnson are our fullbacks, we'd look a better side. Once we decide to keep Gerrard fresh is another. Allen/Lucas has potential for me.

And I think we need to go 4-3-3. 3 proper creative players, with 3 midfielders. That's how he needs to go IMO for us to have any chance to look a fluid side like we did at the end of last season.

How many games have these two actually played together at CM?

I know Lucas was injured till Jan and Allens form dipped around that time.

I'd love to see these 2 given game time together as a partnership.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #218 on: September 24, 2013, 01:20:28 pm »
One bad result, and the knives come out.
Five increasingly dodgy performances is a fairer representation.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Online peachybum

  • orangeyface
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,119
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #219 on: September 24, 2013, 01:23:14 pm »
One bad result, and the knives come out.

It's more about generally poor performances this season isn't is?
I wanna be like Jurgen Klopp

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2013, 01:33:34 pm »
It's more about generally poor performances this season isn't is?

No.

We're two points off the top, and Rodgers didn't just take over in August. If we'd played this way all of last year, then people would have a legitimate reason to carp. We usually play better football - that is the standard Rodgers set. So any deviation from that in a short space of games is a blip, not a destiny.

Stoke - we outplayed them, from start to finish. Only Begovic and the woodwork stopped it being a cricket score
Villa - we outplayed them in the first half, and used a tactical change to grind out a result
Notts County - we outplayed them except for a 20 minute spell in the second half
United - Current Champions, two of the best forwards in the country. We scored early, shut up shop, and forced them to break us down, which they resolutely failed to do. Anyone would have accepted that performance whether it was Houllier, Rafa, or Kenny managing us
Swansea - good first half, bad second half
Southampton - poor game from line-up to final whistle, but we still out-possessed and out-passed them.

So really, one game to go on.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2013, 01:39:46 pm »
Five increasingly dodgy performances is a fairer representation.

So last season didn't happen? Teams don't play badly now and then? Teams don't play badly and get results?

If we're playing the same way in January, we'll all be making the same complaints. But, specifically, your opinions aren't being confined to just the performances. You are brining the transfer window into the equation too. That goes beyond complaining about how we've played, and goes much closer to complaining about the manager (who you didn't want in the first place).
Better looking than Samie.

Offline ser_renely

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 38
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #222 on: September 24, 2013, 01:41:13 pm »
It's a cliché but it's only worth looking at the table after 10 games.

I agree....but part of the fun is trying to figure out how we will do :)

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,284
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #223 on: September 24, 2013, 01:42:13 pm »
That´s the big question. To me, after the Norwich win away last season, 5:2, we started to gave up on it step by step, not entirely but nothing from the initial plan he started out with IMO.

Next game we lost to Udinese at home. it seemed to get thrown out then, which was a shame after the highly exciting football, and wins, at West Brom and Norwich.

That game with Udinese we dominated the first half, dominated possession and should have been a few goals up. It went wrong in the second half and then we gradually moved away from it from then.

It'll be interesting to see if Martinez sticks to the style of football he wants implementing over the season at Everton, or whether they end up reverting to type like we have.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline ser_renely

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 38
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #224 on: September 24, 2013, 01:46:24 pm »
There is little better than winning games when you are not playing well. Those are typically the teams that finish highest in the table.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #225 on: September 24, 2013, 01:49:31 pm »
So last season didn't happen? Teams don't play badly now and then? Teams don't play badly and get results?

If we're playing the same way in January, we'll all be making the same complaints. But, specifically, your opinions aren't being confined to just the performances. You are brining the transfer window into the equation too. That goes beyond complaining about how we've played, and goes much closer to complaining about the manager (who you didn't want in the first place).
As has been pointed out, there seems to be an uncomfortably large diversion in the way we are playing in September from how we were last April. And that is despite improving our squad in the summer. The transfer business only comes into it when the gaps left or misidentified become glaringly obvious either due to injury (Coutinho) or performances.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Hayer

  • World Class Whinger. Sorry, winger.....or was I right the first time.....?
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,838
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #226 on: September 24, 2013, 01:53:43 pm »
As has been pointed out, there seems to be an uncomfortably large diversion in the way we are playing in September from how we were last April. And that is despite improving our squad in the summer. The transfer business only comes into it when the gaps left or misidentified become glaringly obvious either due to injury (Coutinho) or performances.

You only sing when we're losing!

Offline helmboy_nige

  • A diplomat... except in the face of total morons
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,616
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #227 on: September 24, 2013, 01:54:11 pm »
One bad result, and the knives come out.

It's incredible.  There is some real stored up bitterness starting to come out today.  We lost a match.  We were outplayed and out thought. The manager takes a massive responsibility for that, as do the players for putting in a shocking performance.

Regardless of peoples opinions of games 1-4 we gained 10 points from 12.  You can call it lucky if you like but I call it well earned and well deserved.  Otherwise we might as well all apologise for winning the CL in 2005 which was, by these standards incredibly lucky. All those late goals we scored in the 1980s. All down to luck clearly.

The season is 5 games old and we are in a far far better position than we were last season.  I'll save the mass hysterical criticism for if one defeat becomes a trend.

I was gutted after that match on saturday, but it's one game. One abject performance.  There are things that Rodgers needs to fix and there always will be, but shall we at least give him some time to sort it?  Feels like some have been waiting for that one result so the knives can come back out.

Yawn.

Offline markedasred

  • Knowing me, Knowing you... ahaaa!!! Resident Large Canine.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,463
  • No Murdoch in our house
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #228 on: September 24, 2013, 02:00:55 pm »
I really think you are being excessively harsh here. Its still very early in the season, a lot of new players have to bed in and a lot of technically gifted players that give a very different emphasis to the side are missing. I still think problems persist in the middle and missing key fullbacks (Cissohko and Johnson) means the side lacks width at the minute. This gives a very different look to the side that could suddenly become a much better looking side if they return. Vision is one thing, but its far too easy to place too much emphasis on this and see nothing but problems. He has to be pragmatic as well, particularly when the squad is depleted and key components to achieving his vision aren't available.
Totally with you on this Donk, which leads us to the real $64k question, can he sort it for the mancs game, and how does he balance that with the presumably more winnable league games that follow on the weekend and subsequently. it is an intriguing balancing act, first of all prioritising the status of the cup game against the Sunday Sunderland game and the pool of players who are fit. I think the two games have to be looked at as a pair, and a bit of substituting is a necessity, I just wish the two games were the other way around.
Also as a staying on topic comment, not much has been made of Pochettino's extremely high opinion of Coutinho, and how much that would have boosted his confidence in seeing that match as winnable knowing he was side lined.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 02:03:53 pm by markedasred »
"For those of you watching in black and white, Liverpool are the team with the ball"

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #229 on: September 24, 2013, 02:02:50 pm »
As has been pointed out, there seems to be an uncomfortably large diversion in the way we are playing in September from how we were last April. And that is despite improving our squad in the summer. The transfer business only comes into it when the gaps left or misidentified become glaringly obvious either due to injury (Coutinho) or performances.

And again, if we're still playing the same way in January, we'll all have cause for concern.

But you're taking too few games and extrapolating an entire season out of it. However we played, we got the points we didn't get at the same time last season. We are integrating a lot of new players. We don't have our recent top scorer. Our talisman midfielder is a year older. Our other top scorer is not 100% fit yet. We haven't had a settled back four yet. Our experienced right back is injured. Our bright young central midfielder is getting kicked from pillar to post. Our goalkeeper - although a tremendous shot stopper - still has to get to grips with what's expected of him with the ball at his feet.

And we're two points off the top.

If, when we get all our players fit - and we integrate our new players better, and we get a settled back four, and our two best strikers are both fit and raring to go - we are still playing deep in our own half and sacrificing possession, then - and only then - can we start whining about the performances, more so if they aren't also getting results. But until that point, complaining about where we are now is just a little disingenuous. A similar points total to what we have over these first five games, if we'd had it last season added to what we ended up with, would have put us a lot closer to 4th place. So let's see how we are mid-season and only then can people complain about "performances", if these ones have negatively affected our position. Until then, all I can see is people complaining about the manager at the first opportunity they got.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,664
  • YNWA
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #230 on: September 24, 2013, 02:09:02 pm »
I still can't quite comprehend that one either to be honest. Hardly a ringing endorsement of your first signing, costing £11m, who played under you before, on the back of an injury-plagued season. The "Welsh Xavi" didn't get the same treatment.

Remarked the same thing the other day.

It was an very strange decision that flew somewhat under the radar to send Borini out when we'd missed out on attacking transfer targets. He's not the same player as Mkhitarian, nor Willian. But he enables you to move someone around who IS like those players. You can move Suarez from wide to the centre and play Borini in his stead for example. At the very least, he was an option.

That's all before you consider that sending Borini out effectively means that Rodgers saw Aspas as an improvement. It looks like a big mistake as things stand. Aspas looks fundamentally unsuited to the league right now. Im sure he'll improve, but we've now got to wait for him to improve. And who's his alternative while we do? Ibe? Sterling?

People might call Rodgers brave and ruthless for treating an £11m signing in this way, it's both. But mostly its a bit stupid.

Offline TSC

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,484
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #231 on: September 24, 2013, 02:10:18 pm »



Stoke - we outplayed them, from start to finish. Only Begovic and the woodwork stopped it being a cricket score
Villa - we outplayed them in the first half, and used a tactical change to grind out a result
Notts County - we outplayed them except for a 20 minute spell in the second half
United - Current Champions, two of the best forwards in the country. We scored early, shut up shop, and forced them to break us down, which they resolutely failed to do. Anyone would have accepted that performance whether it was Houllier, Rafa, or Kenny managing us
Swansea - good first half, bad second half
Southampton - poor game from line-up to final whistle, but we still out-possessed and out-passed them.

So really, one game to go on.

I the first game v Stoke I thought we were excellent.  Should've been out of sight, and this in the face of what was surprisingly a decent footballing performance from Stoke too.

In all the games subsequently we've been poor second half.  Whether or not this is a deliberate ploy of protecting a lead or we simply get forced back who knows.

However the last game was a poor performance from start to finish.  So if you take that as cancelling out the Stoke game and in all other games we played well for a half, then it's fair to say we've played well in 50% of games.

We've 10 points but it could so easily be 5 if Swansea had deservedly grabbed a winner and if both of UTD & Villa had grabbed an equaliser in the second half of those games, which they arguably deserved to do.

However it is only 5 games down and Suarez is back & in a couple of weeks we should have players returning from injury so all is not lost.  What the injuries/suspensions do show is how thin the squad is in terms of quality if not quantity.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,166
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #232 on: September 24, 2013, 02:17:40 pm »
Nobody is extrapolating anything, merely pointing out some concerns that have become increasingly apparent and recently without the two results that would have continued papering over the cracks.

I don't disagree about the turnaround in results when certain players recover, that's almost a given thank god, but it's a discussion that's interesting particularly if we're not resigning ourselves to another 7th place finish. It's one thing to grind out results out of pragmatism when the need arises but when it becomes an increasingly-ineffective pattern with tactical flaws, then questions will be asked.

Even when we were scraping 3 points, it was more a feeling of relief and "we can't get away with those shit second half performances for much longer". Is it just down to injury? Or fitness? Or mentality? Or the manager's battle between philosophy and results? Or the scouting committee's decision-making in the summer?

As for the insinuation I've just lurked for months waiting for an opportunity to throw a few digs Rodgers way because he wasn't my first choice for manager, you couldn't be more wrong. In more ways than one but I'm not going into that here.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 02:19:24 pm by rossipersiempre »
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,452
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #233 on: September 24, 2013, 02:27:59 pm »
Sure, things will almost certainly improve when we have Glen and Aly back. And with Coutinho recovered and Suarez back up to speed, yes it will be a more positive balanced discussion.

But that shouldn't excuse the refusal to rehabilitate Kelly on Saturday, a proven quality RB who desperately needs match fitness. Was that pragmatism? Nor should it excuse the logic of the Suso/Eriksen/Alberto conundrum. Or the Aspas buy. Or the massive gaping chasm in our midfield. Or the so-called philosophy which appears to have gone AWOL.

I think it was a toss up between getting Kelly back up to speed or getting Sahko up to speed. Suso is abroad getting excellent experience I have no problems with this. I'm more concerned they loaned Borini out to a basket case like Sunderland and brought in Moses on loan, what was the point of that? Eriksen I have no idea what went on, I'm presuming the cost of bringing him in was prohibitive and they went for Alberto instead. Those are the decisions that are made when you have fallen to tier two or three in the attractive club stakes. Its very easy say 'Eriksen orAlberto' but what of it was 'Eriksen or Alberto and Llori'? Writing off Aspas already is pure lunacy. The massive gap in midfield does need to be addressed, but as noted elsewhere, Spearing or Shelvey weren't going to solve that. I think you are too impatient, the club has been in decline for 5 years, arguably longer. You expect the owners to make a turnaround in just a handful? They have spent a lot of money so far, some wisely, some less so; but to expect a team that was mid table(ish) last year to suddenly up a few gears in mere months is too much.

You say they had a vision they pursued last year? My memory of last year was of a team that struggled horribly up until January, then with some knew blood and a number of teams visibly wilting in the second half of the season the team clicked and went on a winning streak. This year Rodgers has new players to bed in and has to get through the tough opening games of the season when everyone is still fresh and enthusiastic. He has, so far, done a pretty good job. I believe the team will pick up as the season progresses and fluency improves with more gametime. For now its enough to me that they are joint second...

I know there are problems and agree with the ones you have identified. All I'm saying is a bit of perspective and patience is a good idea I reckon. Johnny Giles always maintained he paid no heed to results until about 10 games into a season when teams had found their feet.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #234 on: September 24, 2013, 02:39:08 pm »
Nobody is extrapolating anything, merely pointing out some concerns that have become increasingly apparent and recently without the two results that would have continued papering over the cracks.

I don't disagree about the turnaround in results when certain players recover, that's almost a given thank god, but it's a discussion that's interesting particularly if we're not resigning ourselves to another 7th place finish. It's one thing to grind out results out of pragmatism when the need arises but when it becomes an increasingly-ineffective pattern with tactical flaws, then questions will be asked.

We're 5 games into the season, though. It's a bit hard to ascribe a trend as a "pattern".

Quote
Even when we were scraping 3 points, it was more a feeling of relief and "we can't get away with those shit second half performances for much longer". Is it just down to injury? Or fitness? Or mentality? Or the manager's battle between philosophy and results? Or the scouting committee's decision-making in the summer?

You get results for all sorts of reasons in football. You're not always going to play well and win. It happens. As I said, let's make it to January before we decide what "pattern" the team is taking. It's too early to be making those calls. I've been coaching a long time, and if there ever was an example of not panicking early into the season for me, it's the team that went an entire season undefeated and drew only two games. They played like crap in every game, but because we had a brilliant keeper, one good central defender, and three great forwards of varying types, we were able to get wins we didn't deserve. Conversely, the most technical team I ever coached never managed higher than 5th in the table. At some point, it's not about how you play, it's about whether you can get the results over the long term. We all know Rodgers' vision of the game. But if he gets us comfortably into the top four, with a lot of performances like Villa, United and Swansea, and the odd Southampton, nobody would be right to complain. Over 38 games, your ability to win is tested severely, and how you win becomes less important. We are polar opposites in our opinion of Rodgers, I think. But we probably both agree that it's better to win with skill and possession. Rodgers believes that too. But his neck is on the line if he doesn't get results, regardless of how well we play. So if we end up having a few dodgy games in the first set of 10, but we get the points regardless, then Rodgers will take it. He's not a stupid manager.

Quote
As for the insinuation I've just lurked for months waiting for an opportunity to throw a few digs Rodgers way because he wasn't my first choice for manager, you couldn't be more wrong. In more ways than one but I'm not going into that here.

I didn't insinuate that at all, mate. I referred more to the result and the manner of the performance. We're all disappointed in it, but it's also not a reason to start extrapolating how the rest of the season will go. That's what I meant. The result allowed people to make their criticisms. I don't know you, so it's none of my business why you have or haven't posted. Whatever work or other reason has kept you quiet, it's your own reason and it was a genuine reason for not posting. That's good enough for me. I don't think you were lurking and waiting. But for you and a few others, I think the Southampton performance and result gave an opportunity to air grievances and suspicions, with reference to the previous 2-3 games as corroboration. My point is that we can't tell anything until later on in the season. If we are playing the same way and losing games, I will be just as critical as you are. But let's wait and see.   
Better looking than Samie.

Online Draex

  • Geek God of Typing Letters. Hugo unleashes Jaws? Purveyor of fuel products in Kent.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,966
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #235 on: September 24, 2013, 02:45:51 pm »
We're 5 games into the season, though. It's a bit hard to ascribe a trend as a "pattern".


I think the game v's Celtic was a clear indication of shift in philosophy and underlying issues.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #236 on: September 24, 2013, 02:48:29 pm »
I think the game v's Celtic was a clear indication of shift in philosophy and underlying issues.

I don't think it was at all. I think we played that game after a gruelling pre-season tour of the other side of the world, and the players couldn't wait to get back to normal and stop all the traveling. Those who argued for a reduction in all of these world tours as pre-season preparation have a point - don't underestimate the effects of constant travel on peak performance. I'd say if we played Celtic in a few weeks time, with our players fit, the outcome would be different.
Better looking than Samie.

Online Draex

  • Geek God of Typing Letters. Hugo unleashes Jaws? Purveyor of fuel products in Kent.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,966
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #237 on: September 24, 2013, 02:53:23 pm »
I don't think it was at all. I think we played that game after a gruelling pre-season tour of the other side of the world, and the players couldn't wait to get back to normal and stop all the traveling. Those who argued for a reduction in all of these world tours as pre-season preparation have a point - don't underestimate the effects of constant travel on peak performance. I'd say if we played Celtic in a few weeks time, with our players fit, the outcome would be different.

It was more a point of they pressed us, hussled us and got into our faces.. We didn't have an answer and looked toothless in attack.

To beat us its pretty simple - press us high, cut off the short ball and force us long.

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,551
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #238 on: September 24, 2013, 03:04:24 pm »
Next 5 games will tell a lot as if we get another 10 points out of those & we should if we have any intentions this season then all is well. 3 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss every month will have us well on par for achieving a challenge to the top 4. I will take a loss against the Saints if it means we beat the likes of Utd a week before or after.

There is some ?? right now that need answering as we get into full stride. Fitness needs to step up, our possession game needs to kick back in and the few injuries / absentees that we have are compensated for then all is well as it can be. There is no hiding that our bench in terms of midfield and attack is slim, young and inexperienced. We have to get lucky I think until Jan where a couple of additions would be great. Right now the overall standing in the league is great as after 5 games we are on par with Chelsea & City just behind Spurs & Arsenal. Back in August we would have snapped that league position up after the first month so don't let one loss or a couple of indifferent second half performances shroud the overall standing. Suarez is back, Sturridge will get more space / help allowing our midfield more channels to aim while our defense has yet to play their best unit. Lets keep the pissing on our hopes for later in in the season as its September where even the Grumps among us still have some aspirations alive for the season.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #239 on: September 24, 2013, 03:08:44 pm »
It was more a point of they pressed us, hussled us and got into our faces.. We didn't have an answer and looked toothless in attack.

To beat us its pretty simple - press us high, cut off the short ball and force us long.

Then surely every team will be doing that against us, yes?

Let's be clear - Southampton didn't beat us because they pressed us and cut off the short ball. They beat us because Agger got pushed over on a set piece. The story of the Southampton game isn't the story of how we couldn't keep the ball, and Southampton opened us up time and again and put 3 or 4 past us. The story of that game was how we couldn't get in behind them and create any meaningful shots. We had a half-fit striker, four centrebacks, no attacking midfielder, and we didn't get the ball to our best attacker on the day (Moses). If we defend that corner better, then it's a draw. If Sterling doesn't have the touch of an brick wall, then it might have been 1-0 to us. It was a game of fine margins. Here are the stats from Whoscored.com:



It was a very even game. Whoever scored first was probably going to be the winner. We had more possession, more accurate possession, same amount of corners, roughly the same amount of shots. There was nothing in it bar the goal. We were tactically set-up incorrectly, and we didn't have good match-ups in vital areas. Other than that, though, we actually had more passes in this game than against Swansea or United. Our average passing streak was 4 passes, which is around the same as Barcelona's average passing streak (5) - in other words, we weren't just lumping it long, and when we did, there was one player who was key to those long passes. Tactics is the short blanket. Focus on defence, and your attack suffers. Focus on attack, and your defence suffers. It's very difficult to get it right on both ends, and it takes time. Without a fully-fit striker, and with the top scorer banned, being clinical in a slightly defensive game was always going to be hard
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 03:11:11 pm by PhaseofPlay »
Better looking than Samie.