Topic: Loris Karius

[hesbighesred]

It seems like a lot of posts are focusing only on what he's doing between the sticks and a little bit on what he's doing with the ball at his feet without much being said about the most important thing he's doing, or rather allowing us to do. Against Sunderland we had centre-backs almost playing as midfielders, and a big reason we could do that is because they never had to run back to retrieve the ball, because they had Karius pushing up and getting it, then passing it to where they were. His positioning allows us to stay camped another 5 or 10 metres up the pitch, for much longer spells, it makes a massive difference both in terms of the pressure we're able to apply in attack and the space we're able to deny in terms of defense. I've said it before but if our play is like a vice then he's the handle tightening it. You can see why Klopp made the change. Mignolet did very well at the beginning of this season, but what Karius does is something that Mignolet has, as far as I can tell, never even attempted to do. You can make arguments about one player over another on the basis of form, but when it comes to aspects of play that they simply have or do not have, when that aspect of play is something you fundamentally want as part of your tactics, then why delay the inevitable, and why compromise on what your approach could be capable of?

[Nessy76]

It seems like a lot of posts are focusing only on what he's doing between the sticks and a little bit on what he's doing with the ball at his feet without much being said about the most important thing he's doing, or rather allowing us to do. Against Sunderland we had centre-backs almost playing as midfielders, and a big reason we could do that is because they never had to run back to retrieve the ball, because they had Karius pushing up and getting it, then passing it to where they were. His positioning allows us to stay camped another 5 or 10 metres up the pitch, for much longer spells, it makes a massive difference both in terms of the pressure we're able to apply in attack and the space we're able to deny in terms of defense. I've said it before but if our play is like a vice then he's the handle tightening it. You can see why Klopp made the change. Mignolet did very well at the beginning of this season, but what Karius does is something that Mignolet has, as far as I can tell, never even attempted to do. You can make arguments about one player over another on the basis of form, but when it comes to aspects of play that they simply have or do not have, when that aspect of play is something you fundamentally want as part of your tactics, then why delay the inevitable, and why compromise on what your approach could be capable of?

Yes absolutely. Early days still for Karius, but he just looks to be giving us so much more than Mignolet in so many respects. I've said before I don't think Mignolet is a poor keeper, far from it, but he's not a good fit for us.

[mallin9]

It seems like a lot of posts are focusing only on what he's doing between the sticks and a little bit on what he's doing with the ball at his feet without much being said about the most important thing he's doing, or rather allowing us to do. Against Sunderland we had centre-backs almost playing as midfielders, and a big reason we could do that is because they never had to run back to retrieve the ball, because they had Karius pushing up and getting it, then passing it to where they were. His positioning allows us to stay camped another 5 or 10 metres up the pitch, for much longer spells, it makes a massive difference both in terms of the pressure we're able to apply in attack and the space we're able to deny in terms of defense. I've said it before but if our play is like a vice then he's the handle tightening it. You can see why Klopp made the change. Mignolet did very well at the beginning of this season, but what Karius does is something that Mignolet has, as far as I can tell, never even attempted to do. You can make arguments about one player over another on the basis of form, but when it comes to aspects of play that they simply have or do not have, when that aspect of play is something you fundamentally want as part of your tactics, then why delay the inevitable, and why compromise on what your approach could be capable of?

Perfect summary of the GK situation.  Agree completely

[BER]

Got out very quick to two pretty decent openings close to goal is what I remember. A different keeper might have been stuck on his line and who knows what happens.

[hesbighesred]

People trying to defend a weak keeper by saying he's made some great saves is moronic. You go and watch a high school game and the keepers will make some great saves. They keep goal day in day out, that's what they are there for.  You judge a keeper on his overall performance and like Carra said today, he hasn't shown anything that makes it look like we have much of an improvement, if any at all, on Mignolet.

With Mignolet in goal if the opposition hammers up a clearance our centre backs, or Henderson, have to chase it, facing goal. They then have to retrieve the ball and either pass it back to Mignolet or turn on it themselves. Mignolet then takes two or three touches on the ball before making either a simple pass to one of those defenders, who are now back around the edge of the box, and we then have to restart the attack from there, or he hoofs it long, in a team where the only player really capable of consistently making something of those kinds of balls is Origi. And that's not a criticism of Mignolet, by the way, who has been very good in just about every game he's played this season. Nor is it even a criticism of his distribution, which hasn't been bad at all. This would also be the same for just about any other 'keeper in the league and, of course, for Joe Hart, which is presumably why Guardiola shelled out £17 million for a 33 year-old who isn't actually that good a shotstopper (which presumably Guardiola had realised before having, you know, worked with him for years) - so we can safely assume that wasn't why he was bought.

With Karius in the team, the CBs don't have to chase it, because Karius has generally already come out to intercept it, and passed it, first time, to one of that back five, who are now restarting our attack facing goal and positioned around the half-way line. That's been obvious in just about every match Karius has played, including the first half today, and equally obvious in the match - against Leeds - that he didn't play.

Karius enables the whole team to push much further up for much longer and he recycles the ball far, far more quickly and with a lot more confidence than Mignolet does. If you haven't noticed the difference - if you can't see what Karius adds to the team, then it seems to me that there is a lot of the game you are not noticing. Positioning is important, and Karius improves ours, enables us to apply more pressure in attack and leave less space when defending.

[John C]

Lets keep the Karius chat in here please.

In the Mignolet thread there's lots of talk about how poor his kicking was today. It wasn't at all, his kicking was fine, it was simply his hesitancy and indecisiveness when to fucking kick it that was bewildering    Lets not fuck about with the truth here.


When he actually booted it, it flew.

[Bread]

Get the feeling that Klopp REALLY wants Karius to work out. And so do I to be honest, and I certainly don't want to write him off based on the 5-6 game run he had last season.

I welcome him getting some game time.

[Rush 82]

Lets keep the Karius chat in here please.

In the Mignolet thread there's lots of talk about how poor his kicking was today. It wasn't at all, his kicking was fine, it was simply his hesitancy and indecisiveness when to fucking kick it that was bewildering    Lets not fuck about with the truth here.


When he actually booted it, it flew.

yes indeed

[Eeyore]

Lets keep the Karius chat in here please.

In the Mignolet thread there's lots of talk about how poor his kicking was today. It wasn't at all, his kicking was fine, it was simply his hesitancy and indecisiveness when to fucking kick it that was bewildering    Lets not fuck about with the truth here.


When he actually booted it, it flew.

To be fair he kicked it long 21 times and we lost possession on 20 occasions.

[jillcwhomever]

Lets keep the Karius chat in here please.

In the Mignolet thread there's lots of talk about how poor his kicking was today. It wasn't at all, his kicking was fine, it was simply his hesitancy and indecisiveness when to fucking kick it that was bewildering    Lets not fuck about with the truth here.


When he actually booted it, it flew.

I agree. Yes he got caught out to begin with, but it was his first game and when you haven't played for a while it can take a bit of time too get used to the pace of it. But later his kicking was much more assured, I've always liked that he punches the ball and is not afraid to go up for the challenges. He is still young, and because he doesn't play frequently there is always the chance to get caught out. But I hope Klopp perseveres with him, I think he will get much better as he gets more experience.

[Purple Red]

To be fair he kicked it long 21 times and we lost possession on 20 occasions.

Because a keeper's long passing accuracy really matters.

[elpistolero7]

Not sure about his goalkeeping skills, but he is one beautiful bastard.

[Filler.]

He'd be better off dropping his head into a bucket of slightly watered down PVA... shaking it off before he heads out, and by kick off he's got the maddest haircut on earth. If he had that hair, we'd all at least have a starting point whereby we could start to understand his thought processes. Cult hero game today.

[elpistolero7]

Get the feeling that Klopp REALLY wants Karius to work out. And so do I to be honest, and I certainly don't want to write him off based on the 5-6 game run he had last season.

I welcome him getting some game time.

Henderson, Lallana and more recently Moreno are showing the rewards of persisting with talented players who may not hit the ground running. Totally agree with this sentiment, give him time in the cups, 20 or so games this season...maybe he starts to grow in confidence.

So far, all of Klopp's signings have been really good IMO. Think Karius will work out if the crowd and the c*** media are not too harsh on him.

[Eeyore]

Because a keeper's long passing accuracy really matters.

The idea is not to kick it long but to play it out from the back. His distribution is supposed to be one of the areas where he has an advantage over Mignolet. Today for me he got rattled and resorted to punting it long which gave Arsenal free possession.

[John C]

To be fair he kicked it long 21 times and we lost possession on 20 occasions.

You miss the fact that sometimes it fooled the Arsenal players as well though 

Two boss punches though Al, better than McGregor 

[Eeyore]

You miss the fact that sometimes it fooled the Arsenal players as well though 

Two boss punches though Al, better than McGregor 

  .

Luckily it didn't matter today because we completely dominated midfield but against the better sides you simply cannot afford to turn the ball over so easily.

As people have said it was his first game for awhile but in the long run it is something he needs to improve.

[dangerpuss]

I think he'll end up as the number one. Klopp just seems to like him more than Migs. There are definitely question marks but we need to give him chance. A clean sheet is a clean sheet.

[John C]

As people have said it was his first game for awhile but in the long run it is something he needs to improve.

Indeed, my Bank Holiday jest was not meant to be disrespectful. While we're on the subject though, I was stunned to see Bogdan coming out of the players entrance on Wednesday 

[Funky_Gibbons]

To be fair he kicked it long 21 times and we lost possession on 20 occasions.

Which is ironically the thing everyone used to complain about Mignolet, kicking it long and losing possession. The thing is, distribution is the one thing Karius is supposed to excel at.

[RedmenPhil]

Masterstroke by Klopp

1. Clean sheet
2. Arsenal no shots on target
3. Karius clears the ball from all the corners
4. Simon rests and reflects from the stand
5. Goal Keeping Competition stays healthy

BOOM!

[Lone Star Red]

The ironic cheers from the Anfield crowd once he learned to boot the damn ball up the field had me in stitches.

He deserved the stick for being so lazy on the ball.

[Chakan]

Can't really tell anything from that can we. Kicking was hesitant. That's about it.

[Eeyore]

Indeed, my Bank Holiday jest was not meant to be disrespectful. While we're on the subject though, I was stunned to see Bogdan coming out of the players entrance on Wednesday 

Bogdan is still recovering from the ACL injury he got at Wigan.

[So… Howard Philips]

The idea is not to kick it long but to play it out from the back. His distribution is supposed to be one of the areas where he has an advantage over Mignolet. Today for me he got rattled and resorted to punting it long which gave Arsenal free possession.

A couple of his "dribbles" were a bit Fred Karno. Doesn't fill you with confidence, unfortunately.

[Boaty McBoatface]

It felt to me as if he was trying to show us how cool he is with the ball at his feet, and his arrogance/confidence wouldn't let him launch it after the first screw up. Either he realised himself or someone had a word with him to cut it out.

[clinical]

He's nowhere near Mignolet. For a keeper who is supposedly great with feet he's always been poor since he's been here.

[vicar]

The ironic cheers from the Anfield crowd once he learned to boot the damn ball up the field had me in stitches.

He deserved the stick for being so lazy on the ball.

I felt the opposite. It really wound me up. Yes he was slow to clear, really not up to the pace. But why ironic cheers?
Why can't we support out players, it was like when crowds build up a big jeer on goal kicks. What the hell were they trying to achieve? He is our player, why try and make him feel worse?
Do they want him to be more nervous.

Madness.

[harleydanger]

It seems like a lot of posts are focusing only on what he's doing between the sticks and a little bit on what he's doing with the ball at his feet without much being said about the most important thing he's doing, or rather allowing us to do. Against Sunderland we had centre-backs almost playing as midfielders, and a big reason we could do that is because they never had to run back to retrieve the ball, because they had Karius pushing up and getting it, then passing it to where they were. His positioning allows us to stay camped another 5 or 10 metres up the pitch, for much longer spells, it makes a massive difference both in terms of the pressure we're able to apply in attack and the space we're able to deny in terms of defense. I've said it before but if our play is like a vice then he's the handle tightening it. You can see why Klopp made the change. Mignolet did very well at the beginning of this season, but what Karius does is something that Mignolet has, as far as I can tell, never even attempted to do. You can make arguments about one player over another on the basis of form, but when it comes to aspects of play that they simply have or do not have, when that aspect of play is something you fundamentally want as part of your tactics, then why delay the inevitable, and why compromise on what your approach could be capable of?

Really great point.

There's not much difference in shot-stopping/box control between an out of confidence/form Karius and an in form Mings. For me, the upside of backing Karius and adding to the tactical nouse of the team outweighs the advantages of sticking with Mings.

I really think Karius just needs on worldie game to fix up his head, then he'll look like a GK that belongs at a big club.

[tuaz]

I still don't know if he'll work out or not, but I suppose there is some logic in Klopp forcibly blooding Karius in, despite Mignolet still being steadier at this point in time.

Presumably he feels that it's better to let our goalies nos. 2 and 3 have some experience once in a while in bigger games (ie not just the League Cup or early FA Cup rounds) early on in the season, in hopefully controlled circumstances.

I'm not sure I agree 100% with that logic but I can see what Klopp's trying to do.  Luckily (or not, if the aim was to blood him) Arsenal didn't put him under any pressure.  No shots on target.   

His 2 punches of the ball were good, but until we see how he deals with shots on target, the jury is still out.

[Frizzo]

I felt the opposite. It really wound me up. Yes he was slow to clear, really not up to the pace. But why ironic cheers?
Why can't we support out players, it was like when crowds build up a big jeer on goal kicks. What the hell were they trying to achieve? He is our player, why try and make him feel worse?
Do they want him to be more nervous.

Madness.

Agree. I fucking hate it. We should be doing it to opposition goalkeepers, not our own.

By all means have your debates about him after the game but jeering him during a match achieves nothing positive.

[Frizzo]

I still don't know if he'll work out or not, but I suppose there is some logic in Klopp forcibly blooding Karius in, despite Mignolet still being steadier at this point in time.

Presumably he feels that it's better to let our goalies nos. 2 and 3 have some experience once in a while in bigger games (ie not just the League Cup or early FA Cup rounds) early on in the season, in hopefully controlled circumstances.

I'm not sure I agree 100% with that logic but I can see what Klopp's trying to do.  Luckily (or not, if the aim was to blood him) Arsenal didn't put him under any pressure.  No shots on target.   

His 2 punches of the ball were good, but until we see how he deals with shots on target, the jury is still out.

Yeah I'm not fussed if he's giving our other goalkeepers a chance to prove themselves.

Why is it only ok to change keepers for cup games? Bringing your backup in for a game or two here and there in the league is really no different.

I think people have read far too much into it.

[Hazell]

I felt the opposite. It really wound me up. Yes he was slow to clear, really not up to the pace. But why ironic cheers?
Why can't we support out players, it was like when crowds build up a big jeer on goal kicks. What the hell were they trying to achieve? He is our player, why try and make him feel worse?
Do they want him to be more nervous.

Madness.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

Funnily enough, the two heart in mouth moments can be easily fixed so they're not too concerning. I'd more worried if he made a hash of crosses or let shots slip through his grasp so it was more pleasing to see him dominantly command his area, either catching the ball or punching it clear confidently. On paper, it seems like Karius suits Klopp's system more that Mignolet so even though I know Klopp's said that Mignolet will be in goal for the Man City game, I'm pleased Klopp played him yesterday (easy to say after the fact I know) as it means he will be getting opportunities this season. I'd still expect him to make mistakes but that's not really surprising for most keepers, much less for a younger and more offensive minded keeper like Karius but the potential upside would be worth it.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

May have had the heart in mouth moments but he's still chalked up a clean sheet there and that's all the records will show in the end.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

I felt the opposite. It really wound me up. Yes he was slow to clear, really not up to the pace. But why ironic cheers?
Why can't we support out players, it was like when crowds build up a big jeer on goal kicks. What the hell were they trying to achieve? He is our player, why try and make him feel worse?
Do they want him to be more nervous.

Madness.

i didn't think they were ironic. I genuinely thought Anfield was glad that he wasn't fucking about and booted it

[redprodigal]

i didn't think they were ironic. I genuinely thought Anfield was glad that he wasn't fucking about and booted it

This, to get caught like that once is bad, to get caught twice is ridiculous, three times means you've got big problems. It's not as if this is the first time this has happened either. We're weak in the goalkeeping department and if our manager is as gullible and forgiving as some of our fans and can't see this then it's gonna cost us big time.

[P-Owen]

May have had the heart in mouth moments but he's still chalked up a clean sheet there and that's all the records will show in the end.

Not hard for a keeper to keep a clean sheet when the other team doesn't have a shot on target.

[sminp]

There isn't too much to analyse from his performance as Arsenal we're so bad. The one thing I noticed though was that he really took command of his area on corners and as a consequence we defended them far better. He got caught twice on the ball but in fairness to him the second one was Matip's fault, he gave Karius the ball when the Arsenal player was already on top of him.

[Flaccid Bobby Fowler]

I would like him to ditch the whole "lets make the defender look silly by drawing him in and doing a dragback so I look cool" gig he has going on. Don't fuck about with the ball like that. Our defense has had it's confidence shattered for over a season or so now, last thing you need is to needlessly concede cause some in the moment brain dead keeper wants to show boat

[Illmatic]

May have had the heart in mouth moments but he's still chalked up a clean sheet there and that's all the records will show in the end.

At the end of they day he was not tested as Arsenal were just woeful (no shots on target) we didn't really learn anything we didn't already know about Karius in this game that we didn't already know. He was extremely hesitant at times when kicking the ball, which of course will not inspire confidence from his fellow team mates and the fans. I think the one good thing that will come out of this though is that it keeps Mignolet on his toes.