Author Topic: Right and Left?  (Read 6359 times)

Offline Conocinico

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2017, 12:52:59 am »
This one too from Paul Krugman on why so few economic policy experts wanted to have anything to do with Sanders.

Quote
The easy slogan here is “Break up the big banks.” It’s obvious why this slogan is appealing from a political point of view: Wall Street supplies an excellent cast of villains. But were big banks really at the heart of the financial crisis, and would breaking them up protect us from future crises?

Many analysts concluded years ago that the answers to both questions were no. Predatory lending was largely carried out by smaller, non-Wall Street institutions like Countrywide Financial; the crisis itself was centered not on big banks but on “shadow banks” like Lehman Brothers that weren’t necessarily that big. And the financial reform that President Obama signed in 2010 made a real effort to address these problems. It could and should be made stronger, but pounding the table about big banks misses the point.

Yet going on about big banks is pretty much all Mr. Sanders has done. On the rare occasions on which he was asked for more detail, he didn’t seem to have anything more to offer. And this absence of substance beyond the slogans seems to be true of his positions across the board.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/opinion/sanders-over-the-edge.html

The big banks lent to those "smaller, non-Wall Street institutions", then bought the home-loans, securitised them and sold them on to unsuspecting investors. The big banks were intimately connected to the shadow banking system and because of their size and exposure it was they who posed the systemic risk.

Quote
Third, as we saw in 2008 and 2009, too-big-to-fail firms can themselves become major risks to overall financial stability, particularly in the absence of adequate resolution tools. The failure of Lehman Brothers and the near-failure of several other large, complex firms significantly worsened the crisis and the recession by disrupting financial markets, impeding credit flows, inducing sharp declines in asset prices, and hurting confidence. The failures of smaller, less interconnected firms, though certainly of significant concern, have not had substantial effects on the stability of the financial system as a whole.

If the crisis has a single lesson, it is that the too-big-to-fail problem must be solved. Simple declarations that the government will not assist firms in the future, or restrictions that make providing assistance more difficult, will not be credible on their own. Few governments will accept devastating economic costs if a rescue can be conducted at a lesser cost; even if one Administration refrained from rescuing a large, complex firm, market participants would believe that others might not refrain in the future. Thus, a promise not to intervene in and of itself will not solve the problem.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/testimony/bernanke20100902a.htm
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Offline theMilkman

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2017, 05:33:19 am »


The big banks lent to those "smaller, non-Wall Street institutions", then bought the home-loans, securitised them and sold them on to unsuspecting investors. The big banks were intimately connected to the shadow banking system and because of their size and exposure it was they who posed the systemic risk.

The banks are at the core of the financial system,  they are supposed to lend money to other financial institutions, that activity is systemic in nature and you don't stop that without pulling apart the whole system and leave hanging all the real people who depend on it unless you have a really really good 'something terrific' replacement. From the commissions they came up with the Dodd-Frank act, the incentive structure for the banks looked a lot different in 2016 than they did in 2010 and all but one of them was losing money at thetime of the election because of regulatory strain the Obama admin had put on them. Not perfect but a huge difference and talk of breaking up the banks is a lot less relevant.

And that's not the point of my post nor is it Krugmans - No detailed discussion ever came from Sanders, nothing close to one.
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Offline Fortneef

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2017, 09:13:13 am »
I think, the old Right/Left system died with communism.

Now the choice is only whether social democrats or capitalists are better at managing capitalism.

If that choice is unpalatable, you can instead go for corbynite fantasy or faragist scumbaggery.




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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2017, 12:00:06 pm »
At the very least it is useful to split Social and Economic classification. The natural correlation between the two is far looser now it has been historically. Take Cameron, economically a mentalist, but very liberal for a Tory in social terms. Similar some of the left's dinosaurs are socially illiberal.
Indeed, and why the traditional one-dimensional continuum should perhaps be considered a gross oversimplification in this day & age, rather than a) loosely fitting the political terms 'left' & 'right' to your contemporary meaning, more or less just making them bywords for collectivist/statist liberalism & anarcho-capitalist quasi-fascism, or b) tightly squeezing yourself into a crude paradigm you don't actually comfortably fit, just to belong somewhere in the 'mainstream' political landscape (or like someone with certain conscientious socialist leanings feeling a pressure to subscribe to a quite hardcore Socialist party, then toeing the party line on issues they don't internally harmonise with, and gradually having their own political sensibilities dragged that way over time).

The two-dimensional political compass method is probably the most elegant and comprehensive way of pinpointing your political place on the map, I reckon, while still being very easy to grasp, with its natural 'cardinal points' giving you a nice picture of all the ideological space around you, and where the extremes lie socially and economically, without conflating distinct orientations just for the sake of convenience. It does require far more in-depth - and less biased - questionnaires to plot it accurately than has likely ever actually been used for that purpose, though.


A 3D chart is probably the ultimate model, with the third axis being some sort of 'size of state/people power' measure to go with the economic and social axes - from statism to anarchism, I suppose. Being 'far left' economically could mean favouring an omniscient, omnipotent soviet union-style "workers' republic" ideal state, or a loose collectivist new-age tribal commune thing; economically 'far right' can mean an unregulated free market pumping up the all-powerful state, or pretty much every man/gangster [in it] for himself. Socially far left can mean a massive central "nanny state" looking to provide for everyone whoever you are, or a completely devolved liberalist regional autonomy thing; socially far right could be a strong authoritarian state with staunchly conservative values looking after only their own, or an illiberal mob left to their own power struggles.

Whether such an added axis would serve to 'complete' the picture to all intents and purposes, I dunno, but three dimensions may already be going into too complex a territory for many, without needing to complicate things yet further. Also, not everyone in the world sees democracy as the sacred foundation for everything; some would prefer a 'benign dictator', some a 'meritocracy', and so on. Although you can't plot all that crap on a single axis, a line running from state power through to people power (or more accurately, ultimately, 'person power') can at least suggest some more detailed governance stuff.

X = Economy: Collectivism - Individualism (Anarcho-Capitalism)
Y = Civil Rights: Liberalism - Authoritarianism (Fascism)
Z = Power Structure: Statism - Anarchism (Libertarianism somewhere around there)

You can get an authoritarian centralised capitalist state, and decentralised authoritarian Wild West-style law-of-the-jungle rabbles. A very liberal & all-encompassing tax-collecting nurturing welfare state, and loose-knit decentralised liberal communities looking after each other.


Anyway, I guess I'm sort of quite left-of-centre on X (socialist leanings, but totally cool with reasonably regulated private enterprise, etc.), very low on Y (as in high on the granting of personal freedoms), and fairly central-deep on Z (leaning more toward decentralised government, but not going mad with it, however tempting that is).
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Offline thisyearisouryear

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 02:34:28 pm »
I think the actual on-ground manifestation of right-wing and left-wing politics varies from country to country quite a lot. I am not saying there are no similarities but nuances vary and consequently the issues representing these philosophies also vary.

Further, I do think a black-and-white classification between right and left is faulty. People can have value systems that identify with aspects of both right and left wing. For instance, I am a staunch capitalist who absolutely abhors organized religion and believes patriotism is overrated.  Usually, I am a strong advocate of personal choice in almost everything.

Perhaps, what I am trying to say is that one should form independent opinions on issues rather than blanket support of ideologies.


Offline Zimagic

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2017, 03:40:21 pm »
Further, I do think a black-and-white classification between right and left is faulty. People can have value systems that identify with aspects of both right and left wing. For instance, I am a staunch capitalist who absolutely abhors organized religion and believes patriotism is overrated.  Usually, I am a strong advocate of personal choice in almost everything.

The issue with such a simplistic expression of your political stance (I have no issue with it or you having it, btw, this is just for the purposes of how we go about discussing things like this) is that by saying "staunch capitalist", you say you believe in a system that, on the whole, grossly rewards small numbers of people who are already getting ahead of large numbers of people who do the majority of the work and keeping them there, the 1% elite. Which is arguably what the power structures of organised religion and patriotism boil down to. It's a pick-and-mix bag of rigid power structures, you're just championning the only one that people have yet to really target.

Are you in that 1%? Are you likely to ever be in that 1%? If no to both of these, why do you consider yourself to be a staunch capitalist? It's like saying that you're happy to keep those guys happy, rich & powerful while you strive to not ever get where they are. They don't have your best interests at heart, only their own.

The 1% elite generally hold the view that they want to stay part of that elite and start grabbing/sharing power with like-minded 1%-ers, reinforcing the status quo and opposing ideoligies that threaten them like bleeding-heart liberalism. In any country where religion is not cultrally dominant, it's money and/or patriotism that holds the reins.

The US is suffering an asphixiating mix of all 3. Europe is politically interesting because nationalism (a better moniker than patriotism) is on the rise in a zone that's trying to de-regionalise, Religion has long since ceased being a direct political force (now only a handy tool to use to retain status quo), leaving only rampant capitalism as the unifying driving force behind the zone. As long as the rich pay for the poor, Europe is still a socialist ideal, but when the countries are tapped out and only the corporations hold the money, we'll see the real belief in whether people want a unified Euro Zone. We're still a few years away yet.

There is no left and right and very few politicians who claim to peddle either one can actually sell you what they are advertising. Going back to Nick Cohen, he's right on the money about a lot of things but none moreso than this:
As I keep saying, the problem is not the liars, it is the millions who want to be lied to."

As long as there's TV and something to divert the masses, they will be happily lied to until the end of days.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 03:44:59 pm by Zimagic »
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Offline whiteboots

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2017, 03:41:54 pm »
I think that the problem for the Left is what it stands for in the post Brexit, post Trump victory western world.

In Europe and America, a disenfranchised working class is choosing isolationism, not internationalism.

Strange bedfellows are emerging. Corbyn and IDS are ideologically on the same anti- EU side, the City and Trades Unions are pro Europe. It is no longer the toffs v the workers.

Oddball Tory eccentrics like Jason Rees Mogg suddenly speak the same language as a factory hand

The Corbynista wing of the Labour party are disappearing down a blind alley, the centrists, hamstrung by the perceived failures of Brown and Blair offer no coherent alternative. The Tory Euro Sceptic “bastards” have hijacked a party used to cheap unlimited labour and a free market trading zone , and career towards oblivion, with Theresa May barking “ I am only following the will of the people”. Disaster and blood- letting will follow.

Which leaves the Lib dems nicely positioned policy wise, but with a leader more ineffectual than JC.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2017, 04:31:19 pm »
A few weeks back reporters went out on the streets asking the opinions of random people on some of Corbyns hopes for the future.a strong NHS etc. the reaction from people was very positive. yeah I like it they said but as soon as they were told this is what Corbyn wants they grimaced and backed away.
Theres the problem in a nutshell. Image. as far as the public are concerned the hard left stand for a lot more than just a few policys. you will never win the majority of people over even if they love your promises.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2017, 04:36:51 pm »
They've always been fluid concepts. The pre-mid 1970s politicians of all stripes acting on a postwar consensus model were probably more left-wing than their current counterparts. For instance, I doubt the likes of Nixon or Ted Heath would get nominated for leadership roles in the Republicans or Conservatives today.

Offline theMilkman

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2017, 04:49:26 pm »
The issue with such a simplistic expression of your political stance (I have no issue with it or you having it, btw, this is just for the purposes of how we go about discussing things like this) is that by saying "staunch capitalist", you say you believe in a system that, on the whole, grossly rewards small numbers of people who are already getting ahead of large numbers of people who do the majority of the work and keeping them there, the 1% elite. Which is arguably what the power structures of organised religion and patriotism boil down to. It's a pick-and-mix bag of rigid power structures, you're just championning the only one that people have yet to really target.

Are you in that 1%? Are you likely to ever be in that 1%? If no to both of these, why do you consider yourself to be a staunch capitalist? It's like saying that you're happy to keep those guys happy, rich & powerful while you strive to not ever get where they are. They don't have your best interests at heart, only their own.

The 1% elite generally hold the view that they want to stay part of that elite and start grabbing/sharing power with like-minded 1%-ers, reinforcing the status quo and opposing ideoligies that threaten them like bleeding-heart liberalism. In any country where religion is not cultrally dominant, it's money and/or patriotism that holds the reins.

The US is suffering an asphixiating mix of all 3. Europe is politically interesting because nationalism (a better moniker than patriotism) is on the rise in a zone that's trying to de-regionalise, Religion has long since ceased being a direct political force (now only a handy tool to use to retain status quo), leaving only rampant capitalism as the unifying driving force behind the zone. As long as the rich pay for the poor, Europe is still a socialist ideal, but when the countries are tapped out and only the corporations hold the money, we'll see the real belief in whether people want a unified Euro Zone. We're still a few years away yet.

There is no left and right and very few politicians who claim to peddle either one can actually sell you what they are advertising. Going back to Nick Cohen, he's right on the money about a lot of things but none moreso than this:
As long as there's TV and something to divert the masses, they will be happily lied to until the end of days.

That's a very narrow view of Capitalism you've described. The same way there are different versions of socialism, there are different versions of capitalism. The bigger problem in the post GFC world is free market fundamentalism- which is what modern republican dogma comes from, and that's a rather extreme version of capitalism. You could almost say the Efficient Market Hypothesis (which was disproved long before the 08 crash) is to Capitalism the way Wahhabism is to Islam- "don't think, don't interfere. Close your eyes and trust the Market/Allah". All western social democracies run various versions of Capitalism, and even among the countries which are more 'pro-Capitalism', there are huge differences on what is considered ideal (Singapore vs US vs Japan).

Capitalism in its various forms has benefited large swathes of humanity as a whole- not just the 1%.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 05:37:26 pm by theMilkman »
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Offline thisyearisouryear

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2017, 01:52:14 am »
The issue with such a simplistic expression of your political stance (I have no issue with it or you having it, btw, this is just for the purposes of how we go about discussing things like this) is that by saying "staunch capitalist", you say you believe in a system that, on the whole, grossly rewards small numbers of people who are already getting ahead of large numbers of people who do the majority of the work and keeping them there, the 1% elite. Which is arguably what the power structures of organised religion and patriotism boil down to. It's a pick-and-mix bag of rigid power structures, you're just championning the only one that people have yet to really target.
I am sorry but our definitions differ massively. Since you have a bias against capitalism, you have taken a hypothetical scenario where capitalism has gone wrong and chosen it to define capitalism in general.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2017, 05:27:43 am »
I am sorry but our definitions differ massively. Since you have a bias against capitalism, you have taken a hypothetical scenario where capitalism has gone wrong and chosen it to define capitalism in general.

Capitalism has gone right for 1% of people. Congrats if you're in that bracket.
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Offline GreatEx

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2017, 05:46:05 am »
Capitalism has gone right for 1% of people. Congrats if you're in that bracket.

1% of whom - the world, or citizens of "capitalist" nations?

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2017, 06:48:38 am »
1% of whom - the world, or citizens of "capitalist" nations?

Doesn't matter, in both of those cases the statement is false. Neither socialism nor capitalism is defined by its extreme. And even in the extreme which you can take to be the US right now, that statement is false.

People having a go at it could do us all a favour and do a little bit of reading first

http://oecdobserver.org/news/archivestory.php/aid/345/Which_model_of_capitalism_.html

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2015/06/basics.htm

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 10:39:34 am by theMilkman »
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2017, 01:48:23 pm »
1% of whom - the world, or citizens of "capitalist" nations?

Take your pick. The majority get fucked over by a rich, protected minority.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2017, 02:04:16 pm »
Take your pick. The majority get fucked over by a rich, protected minority.
Yes and this happens under every political system.
The problem isn't capitalism the problem is exploitation.
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2017, 02:28:00 pm »
Yes and this happens under every political system.
The problem isn't capitalism the problem is exploitation.

That's Capitalism working as intended. Communism/socialism etc have been exploited.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2017, 03:29:14 pm »
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, its the other way round.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2017, 03:47:47 pm »
That's Capitalism working as intended.

What's your definition of capitalism?
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2017, 03:49:46 pm »
That's Capitalism working as intended. Communism/socialism etc have been exploited.
As intended? nobody made Capitalism up. it evolved, it's not a ideology, it's the natural way for man to trade and it's been with us for thousands of years.
Ive no problem with company's making profits. the problem is company's exploit their workforce to increase their profits. some may corner the market to charge extortionate prices. it's up to us to make the laws to stop this from happening. we dont just throw away the capitalist system as the problems human nature not the capitalist system. greed.
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2017, 03:55:07 pm »
As intended? nobody made Capitalism up. it evolved, it's not a ideology, it's the natural way for man to trade and it's been with us for thousands of years.
Ive no problem with company's making profits. the problem is company's exploit their workforce to increase their profits. some may corner the market to charge extortionate prices. it's up to us to make the laws to stop this from happening. we dont just throw away the capitalist system as the problems human nature not the capitalist system. greed.

So you want excessively wealthy people to make laws to stop people from getting excessively wealthy? Good luck with that.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2017, 03:57:58 pm »
So you want excessively wealthy people to make laws to stop people from getting excessively wealthy? Good luck with that.

What are you on about?
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Offline SP

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2017, 04:10:41 pm »
So you want excessively wealthy people to make laws to stop people from getting excessively wealthy? Good luck with that.

That is where democracy comes in. The excessively wealthy still only have one vote each. They may peddle influence, but the electorate have the ability to overrule them.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2017, 04:20:07 pm »
That is where democracy comes in. The excessively wealthy still only have one vote each. They may peddle influence, but the electorate have the ability to overrule them.

You'd like to think so, but just to get elected into public office requires access to money that a vast chunk of the population simply doesn't have. You might be surprised to see how wealthy US Senators and Congressmen are (you might not, since it's America). I've read a lot in the past about Tories and the Bulingdon Club, a bunch of rich white guys from rich white families who ended up running the country for a few years there.

Money equals power and influence. The rich run most of the Western world. The people who live the worst lives, who know how hard it is to make ends meet on a weekly basis, who know what needs to change to help our most vulnerable are locked out of any position of power as a result of that very upbringing.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2017, 04:21:02 pm »
So you want excessively wealthy people to make laws to stop people from getting excessively wealthy? Good luck with that.
No idea how you came to that conclusion.
I want excessively poor people to stop being their own worst enemy and start voting in people who will make laws to improve their standard of living. I want those same people to appreciate the change for the good when it happens as well.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2017, 04:28:10 pm »
You'd like to think so, but just to get elected into public office requires access to money that a vast chunk of the population simply doesn't have. You might be surprised to see how wealthy US Senators and Congressmen are (you might not, since it's America). I've read a lot in the past about Tories and the Bulingdon Club, a bunch of rich white guys from rich white families who ended up running the country for a few years there.

Money equals power and influence. The rich run most of the Western world. The people who live the worst lives, who know how hard it is to make ends meet on a weekly basis, who know what needs to change to help our most vulnerable are locked out of any position of power as a result of that very upbringing.

In the UK the spending limits do curtail the excesses. Citizens United is pure insanity.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2017, 04:29:46 pm »
In the UK the spending limits do curtail the excesses. Citizens United is pure insanity.

Absolutely, and it should probably be noted that America represents the worst possible face of capitalism whereas the UK has socialist roots still in place. So my view is probably more extreme (out of necessity) than the average left-leaning Brit.

No idea how you came to that conclusion.
I want excessively poor people to stop being their own worst enemy and start voting in people who will make laws to improve their standard of living. I want those same people to appreciate the change for the good when it happens as well.

I think my post above answers this one to an extent.

As to why people vote against their own interests, I don't know enough to really speak to Brexit beyond what I read here. Trump sold himself as a billionaire genius who was going to use his billionaire genius ways to fix the US. I'd blame that one on capitalism too...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 04:32:15 pm by Claus »
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2017, 04:34:39 pm »
I think my post above answers this one to an extent.

As to why people vote against their own interests, I don't know enough to really speak to Brexit beyond what I read here. Trump sold himself as a billionaire genius who was going to use his billionaire genius ways to fix the US. I'd blame that one on capitalism too...
Do you mind me asking if your American. your argument seems to be you need to be very rich to get elected as a Senator or President. this is down to your political system not the Capitalist system.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2017, 04:44:35 pm »
Do you mind me asking if your American. your argument seems to be you need to be very rich to get elected as a Senator or President. this is down to your political system not the Capitalist system.

Yeah, I amended my above post, sorry I keep doing that!

One thing to bear in mind though - a quick Google says that Cameron's 2012 cabinet had a combined worth of 70 million pounds. Does that sit right with you?
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2017, 04:52:32 pm »
Yeah, I amended my above post, sorry I keep doing that!

One thing to bear in mind though - a quick Google says that Cameron's 2012 cabinet had a combined worth of 70 million pounds. Does that sit right with you?
Whats your point. should I hate rich people or should we bar rich people from standing as MPs.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2017, 04:59:07 pm »
Whats your point. should I hate rich people or should we bar rich people from standing as MPs.

What incentive do any of these people have to make the laws to prevent capitalism from fucking the have nots and making the haves richer? That was your suggestion, that capitalism should be kept in check by lawmakers. It isn't really working, as the wealth divide keeps growing anyway.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

Hey Claus, fuck off.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2017, 05:02:08 pm »
What incentive do any of these people have to make the laws to prevent capitalism from fucking the have nots and making the haves richer? That was your suggestion, that capitalism should be kept in check by lawmakers. It isn't really working, as the wealth divide keeps growing anyway.

It should be kept in check by an elected Government.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2017, 05:08:08 pm »
What incentive do any of these people have to make the laws to prevent capitalism from fucking the have nots and making the haves richer? That was your suggestion, that capitalism should be kept in check by lawmakers. It isn't really working, as the wealth divide keeps growing anyway.
No it's not working very well as the have nots keep voting these people back into power. a few millionaires cant change our laws, it takes hundreds of Torys MPs to do this. am afraid it's the price we pay for being in a democracy. people vote against their own interests when they vote hundreds of these Tory MPs into power. if you can think of a solution to stop this happening then I would like to hear it.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:09:45 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2017, 05:15:40 pm »
No it's not working very well as the have nots keep voting these people back into power. a few millionaires cant change our laws, it takes hundreds of Torys MPs to do this. am afraid it's the price we pay for being in a democracy. people vote against their own interests when they vote hundreds of these Tory MPs into power. if you can think of a solution to stop this happening then I would like to hear it.

Tory's vote with their leaders, their leaders are rich establishment types. There is no incentive for them to do anything that would make things better for the poor. If we saw politicians that had actually grown up in poverty, that stayed true to their roots and their beliefs, we'd see change. But those politicians don't have the connections and the money available to them to get elected.

There is no easy solution, but I think rejecting capitalism is part of the process. Certainly limiting the effects of money in politics is a starting point. David Cameron should have the exact same resources available to him that you would. Likewise Trump and myself.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

Hey Claus, fuck off.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2017, 05:17:44 pm »
There is no easy solution, but I think rejecting capitalism is part of the process. Certainly limiting the effects of money in politics is a starting point. David Cameron should have the exact same resources available to him that you would. Likewise Trump and myself.

So you'll shut down all private businesses? No self-employment. Everyone works for the state? No private farms - all agriculture would be collectivised?  No home ownership, no private pensions.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2017, 05:32:02 pm »
Tory's vote with their leaders, their leaders are rich establishment types. There is no incentive for them to do anything that would make things better for the poor. If we saw politicians that had actually grown up in poverty, that stayed true to their roots and their beliefs, we'd see change. But those politicians don't have the connections and the money available to them to get elected.

There is no easy solution, but I think rejecting capitalism is part of the process. Certainly limiting the effects of money in politics is a starting point. David Cameron should have the exact same resources available to him that you would. Likewise Trump and myself.
Some of the worst Tory MPs come from a poor upbringing. David Davis for one, anyone can be a MP in this country, if you can become a MP then you can be PM. all you need is a few nominations and a small deposit to stand.
MPs should come from all backgrounds.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2017, 05:33:28 pm »
So you'll shut down all private businesses? No self-employment. Everyone works for the state? No private farms - all agriculture would be collectivised?  No home ownership, no private pensions.

repeal and replace with something terrific (that's probably going to look a hell of a lot like just another form of capitalism)!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:37:13 pm by theMilkman »
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2017, 05:57:58 pm »
So you'll shut down all private businesses? No self-employment. Everyone works for the state? No private farms - all agriculture would be collectivised?  No home ownership, no private pensions.
Sounds a great idea, it's a wonder nobody's ever thought of this before
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2017, 09:43:18 pm »
If ever a picture epitomised the right and the left. Brummie Saffiyah Khan confronts the EDL in Birminham on Saturday. And if ever a look summed up the ridiculousness of the far right!


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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2017, 10:52:57 am »
If ever a picture epitomised the right and the left. Brummie Saffiyah Khan confronts the EDL in Birminham on Saturday. And if ever a look summed up the ridiculousness of the far right!
It's a great accidental Renaissance-ish snapshot, and a fine encapsulation of something contemporarily very relevant in Britain and elsewhere in the "developed" west, but it really doesn't epitomise 'the right and the left'.

That decent-looking placatory bizzy could well be the most politically 'right wing' person there, in a number of senses (because there is no overriding single, simplistic sense). We need to be careful not to characterise intolerant thugs as the right, and the opposite as the left.
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