Topic: The Serial Podcasts - 3rd series out now (April 2017)

[chilongooner]

A strong and distinct possibility has to remain that Jay shoves all the shit he can on Adnan to get himself out of trouble with the cops who sniff that he is a petty criminal, who they can very easily give a lot of grief to, and appear to have manipulated big time. This is most visible in hindsight with the assembled versions of the events he retells. The vision of Joseph Smith & his writing of the book of Mormon looks true by comparison.
His first appearance to outsiders is the courtroom version of him. He then comes across as reasonable and polite because he is contrasted with Adnan's defence attorney having her nervous and total health breakdown in the courtroom. She was not fit for the job, but could not refuse the work because she wanted the money for healthcare.
 Jay definitely stinks worse in terms of basic morality than Adnan.

 Before that all kicks off, the guy who was just released from prison who had previously killed an Asian woman and was a convicted rapist did the thing he had done before.  He is so much more likely to have done this.

All will be revealed hopefully when we get the DNA testing results.

Jay's family had connections to a lot more than just pot.

[Guz-kop]

You are right. Overall it does not look good for Adnan. The one thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that Jay and Adnan both admit that they were hardly friends, so it makes little sense for Adnan to enlist Jay's help.

I'm certain they're both lying about how close they were. I just don't know why.

You don't keep getting picked up from school, repeatedly go round their house, lend your car and mobile phone and then enlist their help in murder if you're just casual acquaintances. They must've been closer, must have been. I just can't think of a reason why BOTH  of them would lie about that. The only thing I can think of is by distancing themselves from eachother they make it less likely (in the eyes of a third party) that they were both involved in the murder. i.e. Adnan is saying something like "Even if his story is believalbe why on earth would I goto a guy I barely know?" and Jay's side is more like "I barely knew the guy, he forced me into helping"

[chilongooner]

I'm certain they're both lying about how close they were. I just don't know why.

You don't keep getting picked up from school, repeatedly go round their house, lend your car and mobile phone and then enlist their help in murder if you're just casual acquaintances. They must've been closer, must have been. I just can't think of a reason why BOTH  of them would lie about that. The only thing I can think of is by distancing themselves from eachother they make it less likely (in the eyes of a third party) that they were both involved in the murder. i.e. Adnan is saying something like "Even if his story is believalbe why on earth would I goto a guy I barely know?" and Jay's side is more like "I barely knew the guy, he forced me into helping"

Based on everything both have said, the obvious answer is drugs. And not just smoking dime bags of pot.

The only answer to the other is that neither Jay nor Adnan has anything to gain by revealing deeper drug connections. Being that Adnan is already in jail what could possibly be an incentive to still not talk? If what  Jay and Adnan knew involved some more dangerous drug criminals and those criminals have connections in jail then Adnan has no incentive to talk or else he gets shanked.

[Lfsea]

Thought it failed ultimately, despite being a fan of TAL

In a thread of such massive posts and outpourings you give us just that tantalising glimpse of your own thoughts.

Given that you are the only dissenting voice we've heard from (both on here and amongst my friends) it would be really interesting to know why you thought it failed and perhaps what you were expecting that you didn't get.

[chilongooner]

In a thread of such massive posts and outpourings you give us just that tantalising glimpse of your own thoughts.

Given that you are the only dissenting voice we've heard from (both on here and amongst my friends) it would be really interesting to know why you thought it failed and perhaps what you were expecting that you didn't get.

Maybe he thought we were supposed to get a definitive answer by the end? Adnan did it , jay did it or tbird party did it.

[gerrardsarmy]

Sarah Koenig said herself that the point of the podcast was to report not to exonerate.

[Yiannis]

Listened to the 1st episode in the early hours of this day( in a complete silent and dark environment). I'm hooked.

[Brian Blessed]

I hope it's not completely silent

[Chivasino]

Just came in to say that I've started this and throughly enjoying it. Caught a few spoilers though, FFS!

[markedasred]

They have said the funding target has been met to have a new series. No fixed date as yet.

[Yiannis]

Finished it last night. A truly fascinating listening.

Spoiler

As far as the case is concerned, this quote below sums it up perfectly.

Even if he did it I have to agree with one of those students on the investigating team regarding the court case. She said: "mountains of reasonable doubt". Guilty or not guilty...the case was paperthin and that's what matters.

There is a shitload of doubt* presented in the podcast (just when you thought Adnan is 100% innocent, new evidence/thoughts are presented and the doubt is back on) but in the case as well and the conviction shouldn't have happened.

As it has been mentioned, he may have done it but something about Jay's amazing inconsistencies (he's still at it in his last interview after 15 years ffs!) and lack of physical evidence against Adnan, makes him NOT guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt). Again, talking strictly about evidence only.

Adnan's lawyer shortcomings were a major clusterfuck. Not getting Asia (really, has anyone talked about it on here?) on the stand and the lack of a plea deal killed Adnan's case. As also not getting him on the stand. Yes I know they explained why she didn't put him on but all it achieved in the end was further convince jury's opinion of his guilt. You remember what that female juror said, right?

As for the podcast, loved the way it presented by SK. She maintained objectivity for the best part and her epilogue sums up my feelings as well. Greatly researched as well.


* Even in the background stuff. SK mentions how Adnan told her to be entirely objective, that not once he tried to befriend her in order to gain some favourable approach etc but on the other hand wouldn't you be seething if you were wrongly accused? Especially against the person who falsely blames you? Even 15 years later. I don't see that in Adnan's behaviour. I doubt he showed any at the time. I remember Koening asking him that but can't remember for the life of me his answer. Just an observation of course.

My thoughts go to both families that had to go through this ordeal.

[close]

[Twelfth Man]

Just heard on the radio that Adnan has been granted an appeal.
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/serial-subject-adnan-syed-granted-appeal-by-maryland-court-20150207

[Ray K]

Sarah's take:

Update: Court of Special Appeals Will Hear Arguments in Adnan Syed Case
By Sarah Koenig

Some news on the legal front: The Maryland Court of Special Appeals has agreed to hear arguments about why Adnan should either get a new trial, or some other remedy. (You can read the order here.)

In Episode 10 of the podcast, I reported that this appeal was alive by a thread. Now, I’d say it’s more of a … well-made string, maybe. Like the nylon kind. Because it means that the Court of Special Appeals judges think the issues Adnan raised in his brief are worth considering. That’s a pretty big hurdle for any appellant to clear.

To remind you: Adnan argued that his trial attorney, Cristina Gutierrez, had screwed up in various ways. Chiefly, he’d argued that her failure to speak to Asia McClain, a potential alibi witness, and Gutierrez’s failure to seek a plea deal for him, even though he says he asked her to, amounted to what’s called “ineffective assistance of counsel.”

Now that the appellate court has granted this order, what happens next is that, in its June session, a panel of judges will hear oral arguments from Adnan’s side, and also from the state. Neither side can bring in new evidence or witnesses. Then the court will either deny or grant Adnan further relief. That relief could be a whole new trial in the circuit court, or it could be that the circuit court just has to allow Adnan to present new evidence, such as Asia McClain’s testimony.

No matter what the Court of Special Appeals rules, it’s quite possible the whole megillah ends up in Maryland’s highest court, the Court of Appeals. Because if this current panel of judges grants Adnan relief, the state is likely to appeal to the highest court; and likewise, if it denies Adnan relief, Adnan’s attorney will probably do the same. So it’s bound to grind on for a long while yet.

[Chivasino]

She left him, he felt humiliated. He strangled her.

Why would he feel humiliated? By the sounds of it, he was a popular, confident, guy, who would have no problem moving on.

Yep, he broke his religion due to her. He probably felt like he betrayed his family and then she left him and he had a moment of madness.

Jay was definitely involved though.

I have known of a number of Pakistani guys. and girls, in the same situation. Betrayal of the family doesn't come into it, it's not at the forefront of their mind when they break up with someone. In most cases, the family don't even know about what is going on.

Almost all Muslim teenagers, living in the West, be it the UK or US, are not living within their religion. Most in Pakistan probably aren't either! Most of the Paksitani lads I knew whilst at college and uni, were just like Adnan. Smoked weed, drank, had girlfriends. What Adnan was doing isn't unique - far from it.

It's incredibly lazy to suggest that the murder was due to honour, religion and family. I'm positive that Adnan didn't care about these things.

[CheshireDave]

Just finished listening to all the episodes. Was careful not to read this thread or even Google any details about the case until I had completed all 12 episodes.

I was almost certain that Sarah would conclude if she was on the jury she would vote to acquit. Not because she was sure Adnan did not kill his ex girlfriend, but because she was equally not sure that he did.

For what it is worth I think Adnan did kill her. I think Jay's involvement was what he admitted to. There is too many holes and irregularities in Adnan's time line of the day Hai was killed. This would likely have been the most significant day of his life and he would remember. Simply saying "i cannot remember" does not wash with me.

I don't buy the "butt dial" crap, either. Too much of a coincidence.

Was surprised to see one or two in here thought Jay and Adnan may have been in a relationship. That never crossed my mine. Surely one of their friends or the people they interviewed would have touched on this. So again not for me.

Excellently presented podcast. Very hard to listen to one episode and not the next and the next. In fact I listened to 4 or 5 back to back when I really should have been sleeping for work!

Going to go and read other people's opinions now and eagerly await series 2. 

[Red Viper]

Well after listening to the whole series in just under 24 hours my head is spinning.

I've gone back and forth with my thoughts so many times whilst listening. At first I was convinced he was innocent, then I was convinced he was guilty, now I think I'm exactly where Sarah is at. Based on what's been put in front of me I would absolutely acquit, there is so much reasonable doubt. But then that doesn't mean he didn't do it and I think if you were to put a gun to my head and ask me for my gut feeling it would be that he did do it.

Like was said in the last episode there are just too many coincidences to believe he is completely innocent, but then are those coincidences less likely than Adnan happening to be this highly functional sociopath who has played so many people for fools all this time without ever slipping up? Arghh fuck I dunno.

One thing I am certain of is that Jay had more involvement than this than he's let on. At first I was willing to put inconsistencies down to the fact he was a kid being put under a lot of pressure having just experienced something extremely traumatic. But now, having heard the whole series and having just read his recent interview something just doesn't sit right.

[Ben_]

Finished this today. It's a fantastic piece of work from Koenig and friends.

I've gone back and forth with my thoughts so many times whilst listening. At first I was convinced he was innocent, then I was convinced he was guilty, now I think I'm exactly where Sarah is at.

Basically, where I am at too.

The State made a mess of the case so there is a lot of doubt about what they are trying to prove, and a hell of a lot of doubt over what Adnan is saying as well.

Compelling listening though.

[Twelfth Man]

Just watched all the six episodes of The Jinx.

Spoiler

Robert Durst's incriminating self-rationalisations, remind me of Adnan's curious lawyer-speak...

[close]

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

Just watched all the six episodes of The Jinx.

Spoiler

Robert Durst's incriminating self-rationalisations, remind me of Adnan's curious lawyer-speak...

[close]

Just recently watched that myself and I find a really interesting juxtaposition between the two works.

Spoiler

The most obvious has to do with the conclusion to each. I think almost everyone would agree that The Jinx had the kind of finale all of us wanted while listening to Serial, but the producers on The Jinx also seemed to be willing to play fast and loose with the integrity of their documentary in the name of suspense. It's come to light since the finale aired that the timeline they presented, in that final episode especially, might not be accurate, specifically that their second interview with Durst actually came before his arrest for violating his restraining order when he stood outside his brother's house. It doesn't change the substance of its concluding moments, but almost the entirety of the finale details the suspense of whether or not the second interview will take place and then, at least as the producers chose to present it, they are fortuitously handed the leverage (their term) needed to extract that interview out of Durst with his arrest. It turns out that the second interview appears to have taken place about a year before his arrest, so the timeline they present in the finale is almost certainly a fabrication. There's no real reason for it either, other than it just made a more compelling hour of television and it raises a lot of questions about how long they held onto the letter, how they chose to present certain discussions between the producers, and, of course, what other aspects of the story they felt free to misrepresent. I've also seen some criticism leveled at Jarecki for both his increased role in the narrative as the story he was telling unfolded and his decision to use recreations as a storytelling device. I wouldn't say I adamantly agree with either of those criticisms, but I can attest that they were both things I noted as I watched the series, before ever encountering the criticisms. In fact, I think I'd go as far as to say that I always felt like Jarecki was guiding us to the show's eventual conclusion, even before it became clear that the evidence was taking us there. From my point of view at least, I felt like the recreations were the biggest factor in this, but I can imagine others not having a problem with them.

Contrast that with Serial, whose main criticism (at least as far as I've seen) was its inability to solve the case. Despite not arriving at The Truth, I think one could easily argue that its producers did a far better job of representing the truth. Koenig was always consistent in presenting herself as part of the story and never wavered from that, including offering subjective musings on certain aspects of the case. She was absolutely meticulous in outlining the timeline of both the murder and her interviews. Perhaps I've simply missed them, but I haven't encountered any issues with her representation of the case's timeline or any directorial blurring of the line, unlike Jarecki's work. I suppose my point is that, as a work of pure entertainment, The Jinx is tough to beat, but as works of documentary, I think Serial was superior.

[close]

I'd be interested to know what others who have experienced both thought of them because I think the similarities are hard to ignore.

[Twelfth Man]

...

Spoiler

Pretty much agree about The Serial's integrity compared to The Jinx. Had no idea they did that with the timeline to the second incriminating interview. Like you say, there was no real reason to either. Thinking about it, they could have kept Jarecki's appearances down to just the interviews and scenes outside the office and home.

[close]

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

Spoiler

Pretty much agree about The Serial's integrity compared to The Jinx. Had no idea they did that with the timeline to the second incriminating interview. Like you say, there was no real reason to either. Thinking about it, they could have kept Jarecki's appearances down to just the interviews and scenes outside the office and home.

[close]

Spoiler

Yeah, I didn't have a huge problem with how much of a focus of the story he became. I think it was more down to the way the evidence developed and how that became the prominent storyline by the end, but it was something I absolutely noticed as I was watching it. The timeline, though, is an altogether different story and it doesn't look great for the producers because once they started getting questioned about it they cancelled a bunch of scheduled interviews behind some bogus "We might get called to testify" excuse. This was a couple weeks ago, so I'm not sure how the story has developed since then because I haven't kept up with it religiously, but it raised a lot of flags at the time. This breakdown of the final episode has a brief but extremely interesting comparison to Serial:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/how-did-the-jinx-narratively-manipulate-its-viewers#.uw42xDDYE

And another one that looks more closely at the timeline issues:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kateaurthur/the-holes-in-the-jinx-might-go-deeper-than-we-thought#.ptnevWWpl

[close]

[litliper]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/business/media/another-serial-chapter-from-group-of-lawyers.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

They've chosen a story for Season 2. No word what it is, but they just released the following email:

Thanks to all of you who downloaded Serial: Season One and spread the word about the show to family and friends. We've had 80 million downloads, all over the world. In fact, only two places didn’t download Serial: Eritrea and North Korea. We’re kind of stunned, and so grateful for all your support.
 
And another thank you to everyone who submitted an idea for Season Two. We've carefully reviewed more than 1,500 submissions and are excited to announce that we've selected our next story. We don’t have a definitive launch date but we’re hard at work on production and hope we can bring it to you by this fall. Please stay tuned for more announcements about Season Two and other Serial events.

[Yiannis]

Yessssssss

[redgriffin73]

They've chosen a story for Season 2. No word what it is, but they just released the following email:

Brilliant news. 80m downloads worldwide?

[Brian Blessed]

That's some serious Mail Shimp money they'll be getting for season 2.

[Ray K]

That's some serious Mail Shimp money they'll be getting for season 2.

I expect to see more notes from the producers like this then

[Brian Blessed]

I actually, I actually use mail chimp.

Also, there is a related podcast episode out called Undisclosed: The State Vs. Adnan Syed. Not sure if it's a one off. It's top of the charts right now.

[Yiannis]

Of course it is. Even if it had to do with Adnan's bowel movement, it would still be top of the charts.

[Brian Blessed]

A podcast about his bowel movement would actually be more interesting. This one is "we aren't bias...but he is really, really innocent. And you can't believe any of the witnesses...except the ones that give Adnan an alibi."

[Yiannis]

Oh come on, it wasn't like that. A minor tendency at times towards Adnan's innocence, maybe, but she/they presented both aspects.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

I started this podcast last Thursday, I think and I'm just about to fniish episode 12.

Wow! This is so compelling and absolutely gripping. Sarah K does a great job of being balanced and presenting the information in a coherent and straightforward way. So much stuff has gone through my mind and I go back and forth between Adnan being guilty or not guilty.

From the evidence presented, it's incredible that he was prosecuted to begin with. That's not to say he didn't do it but how could they put him away on Jay's word?

I listen to Adnan and he's so calm and laid back and just completely accepting of his position. That's a bit strange to me but it has been 15 years, maybe he has just come to terms with how things really are. But there are no chinks in the armour - he talks and talks and for me, totally believable.

I do have trouble believing Jay though. The inconsistencies, the lies - how did a jury convict on that? Dreadful! But I do agree with those who say there isn't really a theory out there that fits the story that Jay killed her. Perhaps he knows who did but Adnan offered up his phone and car - he didn't hustle that from him.

I dunno, there's just so much spinning around my head right now. I'll be finished episode 12 today on the way home from work and then I'm going to start into new podcast and see what that has to offer. I hear there are some new leads or interesting pieces of information.

Oh, and I did go ahead and ready the 3 part interview with Jay. Again, I find him uncomfortable. But what he does say about the tip off is interesting and a totally plausible theory, that a member of the Muslim community, perhaps a leader or someone you would confide in, had tipped off the Police, perhaps after Adnan confiding in him.

I find it hard to believe Adnan did it, based on the Sarah K's investigation into the timeline of events and Asia's letters to Gutierrez.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/18/serial-asia-mcclain_n_7307756.html

[Twelfth Man]

Adnand did it. The same lawyer-speak as the guy The Jinx. Hardly any mention of his ex..

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

http://news.sky.com/story/1486767/serial-podcast-killer-can-call-new-witness

Has anyone seen the #FreeAdnan? tshirts?!

My opinion now is that Jay and Adnan were both involved - much deeper than what they have ever revealed.

I think Adnan might have recruited Jay to hire someone to kill her or dispose of her body, which is why both maintain they didn't kill her and might have been why Adnan gave Jay his car and phone. But why get in the car with Hae if he knows she is to murdered? Jay having his car is a good excuse for him to ask for a lift - it seems normal. But maybe his plan was to lead her to the place she was to be murdered - whether that was always Best Buy or they ended up there. Either for someone else to kill her or for him to kill her.

It might explain why there are calls popping up from a number/person they don't know.

But then I think if it was pre-meditated and you didn't want to get caught, then you make sure you have a water-tight alibi, not wishy-washy 'I dunno where I was' comments about that time.

You think you figure it out then your head is a mess again.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Hardly any mention of his ex..

This struck me as odd - not just with Adnan, but with everyone. No-one has really mentioned 'Oh it's so sad, it's such a tragedy, I miss her everyday, I can't stop thinking about her' etc...

But is that editing? Would they need to account for everyone showing some kind of empathy so it doesn't reflect badly on others? Maybe they just left the emotional stuff surrounding Hae's death out of it.

[masher]

They've chosen a story for Season 2. No word what it is, but they just released the following email:

Any release date out yet?

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

Any release date out yet?

Newest update with relevant bit on new season(s) in bold:

Hello Everyone!

It’s Sarah K. here. We have information for you about our upcoming seasons of Serial. 

But first, some news from the Season One story: There’s been a legal development in Adnan Syed’s case. In an unusual move last week, the Maryland Court of Special Appeals remanded part of Adnan's case back to circuit court. Back in 2013, the circuit court had denied Adnan’s post-conviction petition, in which he claimed ineffective assistance of counsel based largely on the argument that his attorney, Cristina Gutierrez, failed to pursue - or even contact - Asia McClain as an alibi witness. 

Adnan appealed the circuit court’s decision to the Maryland Court of Special Appeals, and was due to have a hearing next month.  But last week, the Court of Special Appeals essentially paused the case, saying that Adnan can ask the circuit court to re-open his post-conviction proceeding so he can present a new statement from Asia.  In January of this year, after Serial finished airing, Asia reiterated in an affidavit that she’d seen Adnan at the public library on the day Hae Min Lee went missing in 1999.  And she also stated that Kevin Urick, a prosecutor, had discouraged her from testifying at Adnan’s post-conviction hearing. “Urick convinced me into believing that I should not participate in any ongoing proceedings,” Asia says in the affidavit. 

The appeals court’s order does not mean Adnan will get a new trial. Nor does it mean that the circuit has to agree to hear Asia’s testimony. But with this order, the appeals court has certainly cracked open a door. And anytime a court opens a door to new testimony – new fact-finding – that’s a big deal for the appellee. In other words, good news for Adnan. It’s likely that once the Asia issue gets sorted out in circuit court, the Court of Special Appeals will take up the case again.

What’s hard to know is whether all the outside attention to even the smallest wrinkles in Adnan’s case has influenced the Court of Special Appeals to take this unusual step. I really hate to speculate about why a court makes any particular ruling. I don’t presume to know the judges’ minds, or ascribe extra-judicial motives to their rulings. But clearly the appellate judges are aware the public is watching, and while I don’t imagine they’d order anything they didn’t think was just, I do think it’s possible that they’re being extra careful to make this process as transparent as they can, so that the public will fully understand their ultimate decision.

Second: The American Bar Association has awarded the first season of Serial its 2015 Silver Gavel award recognizing “outstanding work in media and the arts that fosters the American public’s understanding of law and the legal system.” We’re very grateful for this honor.

Third: we are hard at work reporting not one, but two distinct new stories. This means we’re planning on a third season of Serial. And we hope it means we can reduce the amount of time between the end of Season Two and the beginning of Season Three. As it stands, we intend to launch Season Two this fall and Season Three next spring. Sorry - we can’t tell you details about the new stories yet. What we can say is that they’re very different from Season One, but no less interesting to us.

Serial is coming to a city near you!   

Well, hopefully you live near: Washington, D.C., Hartford, Austin, Fort Worth, Dallas, Cleveland or New York.

Come see Julie Snyder and me talk about making the first season of Serial live on stage.  We talk about the challenges of the reporting, how we designed the show, play behind-the-scenes tape and tell you what it was like to suddenly be in the national spotlight (it was nuts). 

Upcoming dates:
Saturday, June 6, 2015 |  Vienna, VA: Wolf Trap. Evening lecture with Sarah and Julie.

Wednesday, June 10, 2015 | Hartford, CT: The Bushnell Theatre.  Evening lecture with Sarah and Julie.

Saturday, August 1, 2015 | Austin, TX: Long Center. Evening lecture with Sarah.
 
Sunday, August 2, 2015 | Fort Worth, TX: Podcast Movement 2015. Evening lecture with Sarah.
 
Monday, August 3, 2015 | Dallas, TX: AT&T Performing Arts Center. Evening lecture with Sarah.
 
Wednesday, September 9, 2015 | Cleveland, OH: Writers Center Stage Series.  Evening lecture with Sarah and Julie.
 
Friday, September 25, 2015 | Brooklyn, NY: BAM. Evening lecture with Sarah and Julie.



That's our news for now. As always, thank you for your continued interest in, and support of, Serial.

Sincerely, Sarah K. and the Serial Team

[Twelfth Man]

Nice. Hope they are equally intriguing cases. Sure they will be. ps.., I still think he did it!

[Lfsea]

I hope they have been given breathing space by the sponsors and publishers to construct the series' at their own pace and ensure that they're as good as the first series was.

Can't wait.