Author Topic: Richard Dawkins  (Read 270514 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3400 on: May 6, 2017, 09:12:44 pm »
Suppose it's probably a good thing the complainant focused on a high profile foreigner then. Hopefully it can bring about a healthy change to the law, to bring it in line with the 20th century, without needing to charge any normal Irish people.

Do all constitution changes require a referendum?

Yup.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3401 on: May 8, 2017, 10:34:59 am »

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3402 on: May 8, 2017, 12:35:54 pm »
Suffering a brain injury can make you more religious, scientists say

The prefrontal cortex is also involved in higher order decision-making and is associated with self-awareness and many other advanced brain functions. So it makes total sense that losing advanced cognitive ability would make one more religious.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3403 on: May 8, 2017, 07:53:39 pm »
I some ways I hope charges go ahead...

It would highlight the absurd nature of the law, hopefully then falling apart

Would this be an ecumenical matter, Ted?

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3404 on: May 8, 2017, 08:00:51 pm »
Would this be an ecumenical matter, Ted?

Careful now

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3405 on: May 8, 2017, 10:36:29 pm »
There'd be significantly fewer causes for fundamentalists in the world to cling to, which is certainly to be celebrated

Thank Christ those well known religious fundamentalists Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot have gone to hell! :)

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3406 on: May 8, 2017, 10:45:03 pm »
Stephen Fry blasphemy probe dropped after gardaí fail to find 'substantial number of outraged people'

Seriously.

Gardaí have decided not to proceed with a blasphemy investigation against Stephen Fry after they failed to find a large group of people outraged by comments he made on an RTÉ show.

Detectives spoke to the man who made the original report this evening and confirmed they will not be carrying out further enquiries.
Independent.ie understands that detectives were unable to proceed with the investigation as there was no injured party.

Under the controversial legislation, introduced by then Justice Minister Dermot Ahern in 2009, it is illegal to publish or utter a matter that is "grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters sacred by any religion, thereby intentionally causing outrage among a substantial number of adherents of that religion".

A well-placed source said: "This man was simply a witness and not an injured party. Gardaí were unable to find a substantial number of outraged people.

"For this reason the investigation has been concluded."

The man told gardaí he was happy that he had done his civic duty by reporting what he believed could be a crime under the current law.

And the man, who made the report to gardaí in Ennis Co, Clare in 2015, confirmed to the detective that he was happy gardaí had investigated the matter in full.

This evening he told Independent.ie: "I did my civic duty in reporting it. The guards did their duty in investigating it. I am satisfied with the result and I don't want to comment further."

Michael Nugent, Chairperson of Atheist Ireland said the reason for dropping this investigation is "even more dangerous than a prosecution would have been."

"This creates an incentive for people to demonstrate outrage when they see or hear something that they believe is blasphemous.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3407 on: May 8, 2017, 11:22:23 pm »
Thank Christ those well known religious fundamentalists Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot have gone to hell! :)

There'd be significantly fewer causes for fundamentalists in the world to cling to, which is certainly to be celebrated.   ;D



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As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3408 on: May 8, 2017, 11:26:43 pm »
Stephen Fry blasphemy probe dropped after gardaí fail to find 'substantial number of outraged people'


Michael Nugent, Chairperson of Atheist Ireland said the reason for dropping this investigation is "even more dangerous than a prosecution would have been."

"This creates an incentive for people to demonstrate outrage when they see or hear something that they believe is blasphemous.

Not sure I agree with Nugent. The only yardstick is the Fry case where people didnt fake outrage. Plus its part of the requirements of the law itself.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3409 on: May 9, 2017, 11:38:59 am »
I totally agree with Nugent. That part of the law says that if you can just whip up enough pitch fork wielders we can proceed to the next stage. That is incredibly dangerous, laws should have nothing to do with how many people think something is offensive, they should be there to protect the rights of a minority from the whims of the majority, or to protect against mob rule. This is how atheists in Bangladesh get hacked to death, without protection, and while the police stand by and watch.

What exactly is the number of offended people where it qualifies for a prosecution, 10, 20, 1000, 5000, 20,000 ?

I am deeply offended by the behaviour of the Catholic Church,  moving around and protecting child rapists, opposing condom use so that millions of people die in Africa, taking away of children from their mothers, teaching utter horseshit about how a man in a silly costume whispering a few words in Latin turns a wafer into the body of an ancient Jew. If I can get enough people who agree with me can I get a prosecution case going against the Church, and all of those people who give money every week to prop up this deeply immoral and criminal organisation ?

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3410 on: May 9, 2017, 02:05:39 pm »
I've never understood trans substantiation and I don't know if any catholic who actually believes they are drinking blood and flesh,  it's all very odd.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3411 on: May 9, 2017, 02:20:22 pm »
I totally agree with Nugent. That part of the law says that if you can just whip up enough pitch fork wielders we can proceed to the next stage. That is incredibly dangerous, laws should have nothing to do with how many people think something is offensive, they should be there to protect the rights of a minority from the whims of the majority, or to protect against mob rule. This is how atheists in Bangladesh get hacked to death, without protection, and while the police stand by and watch.

What exactly is the number of offended people where it qualifies for a prosecution, 10, 20, 1000, 5000, 20,000 ?

I am deeply offended by the behaviour of the Catholic Church,  moving around and protecting child rapists, opposing condom use so that millions of people die in Africa, taking away of children from their mothers, teaching utter horseshit about how a man in a silly costume whispering a few words in Latin turns a wafer into the body of an ancient Jew. If I can get enough people who agree with me can I get a prosecution case going against the Church, and all of those people who give money every week to prop up this deeply immoral and criminal organisation ?

You are right in what you say, but perhaps missing my point. Looking at the fact that this law exists in the first place, isnt it better that there is an extra layer required, that enough people have to be offended.  If the extra buffer didn't exist then Fry would already be guilty.



As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3412 on: May 9, 2017, 02:41:03 pm »
I've never understood trans substantiation and I don't know if any catholic who actually believes they are drinking blood and flesh,  it's all very odd.

But a magic guy who comes back from the dead is totally normal?

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3413 on: May 9, 2017, 03:52:05 pm »
But a magic guy who comes back from the dead is totally normal?
That happened 2000 years ago, they have the excuse of 'you can't prove he didnt'.

With bread and wine you'd have to be soft in the head to believe it.
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3414 on: May 9, 2017, 04:01:01 pm »
You are right in what you say, but perhaps missing my point. Looking at the fact that this law exists in the first place, isnt it better that there is an extra layer required, that enough people have to be offended.  If the extra buffer didn't exist then Fry would already be guilty.





I know what you mean, and yes you are right that the extra buffer is good in this case as it failed at that first hurdle, but if it had passed that test and they managed to whip up a 100,000 strong backing it will be extra ammunition for the prosecution to create pressure going into the 2nd phase. We shouldn't be basing criminal cases on a popularity contest.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3415 on: May 9, 2017, 05:41:35 pm »
I know what you mean, and yes you are right that the extra buffer is good in this case as it failed at that first hurdle, but if it had passed that test and they managed to whip up a 100,000 strong backing it will be extra ammunition for the prosecution to create pressure going into the 2nd phase. We shouldn't be basing criminal cases on a popularity contest.

I am in no way defending the law. For a country that wants to consider its self developed these laws contradict that.  As for Fry, his comments were two things, bang on and blasphemous.

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3416 on: May 9, 2017, 05:46:22 pm »
In the words of Jimmy Cricket, there's more

Former Governor of Jakarta sentenced to two years in jail

His blasphemous comments were that its ok for Muslims to vote him even if hes not a Muslim.  Pretty sick actually.

Having lived in an Islamic country in SE Asia there is a good chance this is about politics as much or more than Religion. However dont the Muslim's running these countries realise how it looks

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/09/jakarta-governor-ahok-found-guilty-of-blasphemy-jailed-for-two-years

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3417 on: May 10, 2017, 08:37:24 pm »
I know what you mean, and yes you are right that the extra buffer is good in this case as it failed at that first hurdle, but if it had passed that test and they managed to whip up a 100,000 strong backing it will be extra ammunition for the prosecution to create pressure going into the 2nd phase. We shouldn't be basing criminal cases on a popularity contest.

Barabas or Marine A?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3418 on: May 22, 2017, 11:35:12 am »

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3419 on: May 22, 2017, 11:39:37 am »
Nicely put

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3420 on: June 7, 2017, 04:45:24 pm »
I finished The Blind Watchmaker recently. Stunning book.

Edit: Found a recent review which does it more justice than I can.

Richard Dawkins' watchmaker still has the power to open our eyes

One sometimes forgets, given his recent combative secular humanism, just how warm and lyrical Richard Dawkins can be. This is a patient, often beautiful book from 1986 that begins in a generous mood and sustains its generosity to the end. It takes its title from a famous sentence in William Paley's Natural Theology (1802), which Dawkins calls "a book that I greatly admire..."

Not only does he profess admiration, he even concedes that he might once have been convinced by Paley. "I could not imagine being an atheist at any time before 1859, when Darwin's Origin of Species was published," he volunteers.

This generosity extends even to the "sincere and honest", but clearly somewhat confused, Church of England bishop Hugh Montefiore who could not believe (Dawkins calls this the Argument from Personal Incredulity) that natural selection explained, for instance, the whiteness of polar bears.

But most of all, Dawkins' generosity extends to the reader, who is confronted with meticulous reasoning, leavened by lyrical riffs upon metaphor that have always been his trademark.

Dawkins can hardly have been the first to propose the idea of "genetic space" in which "the actual animals that have ever lived are a tiny subset of the theoretical animals that could exist", but I cannot think of anybody else who would then go on to propose notional genetic engineers who could "move from any point in animal space to any other point" and then concede that, sadly, we might never know enough to navigate towards the "dear dead creatures" the dodo, T. rex and the trilobites, lurking forever "in their private corners of that huge genetic hypervolume".

This passage grows out of his seemingly artless excitement at an experiment he was running on a 64-kilobyte computer (yes, this book was written in the silicon palaeolithic). His simple evolutionary modelling program had, in 29 generations, started to provide two-dimensional biomorphs that looked like bats, spiders, scorpions, tree frogs and even a fox. The insects had eight rather than six legs but "even so! I still cannot conceal from you my feeling of exultation as I first watched these exquisite creatures emerging before my eyes."

All the way through the book, he seizes happy analogies, bright metaphors and shining images to light up his passion and our darkness: just as he makes his biomorphs seem alive, so he has a way of making living things seem transcendent. Soldier ants in Panama, for instance, guarding the ant queen, also guarded "the master copies of the very instructions that made them do the guarding. They were guarding the wisdom of their ancestors, the Ark of the Covenant."

He is of course, about to address the idea of DNA, and he casually introduces DNA molecules as "dewdrops" that form only to evaporate, an existence measured in moments, whereas the instructions locked in DNA "are as durable as the hardest rocks", with lifespans to be measured on a geological timescale.

If this book consisted only of bright ideas and beautiful language, however, we wouldn't be reading it now. It endures in print because it must be one of the best books ever to address, patiently and persuasively, the question that has baffled bishops and disconcerted dissenters alike: how did nature achieve its astonishing complexity and variety?

Dawkins dismisses the "what use is half an eye?" question with such grace and assuredness that I cannot understand why it is still being asked, in various forms. He addresses all those issues of improbability (how did self-replicating molecules emerge, how did life begin, why did it begin on Earth and apparently only on Earth?) not by answering the questions but by patiently explaining what improbability really means, given a starting point of energy and organic chemistry, on a timescale of billions of years and with 100 trillion planets to choose from.

The point of every chapter – every page in fact – is to convince the reader that what we see now, buzzing, flapping or scuttling around us everywhere, is the consequence of the operation of natural selection upon random mutations over an immense period of time. To understand this is not to explain how life started, or why the first fish crawled on to dry land, or why birds learned to swim under water, or why humans have enough intelligence to ask questions about an unknowable prehistory. To understand this is to realise that, whatever the puzzle set by the appearance of design in living things, it is most easily explicable in terms of Darwin's huge, all-embracing idea, and the enormous time available since the first organisms began to drift on the warm pre-Cambrian tides.

In the course of this very substantial and always meticulously sustained argument, Dawkins writes things that one feels he might not choose to write now, on punctuated equilibrium, cladism and other clashes of heresy and orthodoxy, doctrine and ritual within the broad church of evolutionary argument. But one can read even these with profit.

Almost everything about this book – the instances, the writing, the passion, the lyrical imagery – confirms again and again that there is nothing dry about science, nothing heartless about research, and nothing unfeeling about the way a biologist looks at an animal.

My copy of the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has four entries from Charles Darwin (which shows how concise it must be) and two quotations from Dawkins: both of them from this book, and one of them from the passage that gives this book its title.

"Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind. It has no mind and no mind's eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker"
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 05:19:36 pm by Corkboy »

Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3421 on: July 1, 2017, 03:01:22 pm »
I finished The Blind Watchmaker recently. Stunning book.


You've just reminded me that I have that somewhere and haven't got around to reading it. I must fix that.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3422 on: July 1, 2017, 03:22:00 pm »
Superb book.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3423 on: July 2, 2017, 02:44:50 pm »
I've never understood trans substantiation and I don't know if any catholic who actually believes they are drinking blood and flesh,  it's all very odd.

On the contrary, there's large swaths of Catholic literature devoted to the 'scientific proof' of transubstantiation and a quick google will put you in contact with plenty who believe it to be literal.

Religion really brings out the madness in people.

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“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3426 on: July 7, 2017, 02:22:34 pm »
But a magic guy who comes back from the dead is totally normal?

Physics doesn't have an arrow of time.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3427 on: July 7, 2017, 06:42:59 pm »
Physics doesn't have an arrow of time.
Biology certainly does.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3428 on: July 7, 2017, 10:29:00 pm »
What is it in Ireland (roughly?)

A lot less.

Offline SP

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3429 on: July 9, 2017, 07:35:29 pm »
Physics doesn't have an arrow of time.

Entropy?

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3430 on: July 10, 2017, 08:49:01 pm »
Entropy?

Is statistical in nature as it's a measure of the probability of any macrostate occurring, so it's more likely that gas molecules will spread out in a container rather than cluster in one corner.
This sentence is not provable

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3431 on: July 10, 2017, 09:07:38 pm »
Is statistical in nature as it's a measure of the probability of any macrostate occurring, so it's more likely that gas molecules will spread out in a container rather than cluster in one corner.

While this is true, the probabilities run in one direction only. Suppose that gas molecules are clustered in the corner of some closed system at t1. We expect it to spread through the system by t2 but not by t-1. The statistics must posit an arrow of time.
Having said that, I'm not sure what the relationship between entropy and the arrow of time really amounts to. It could be merely correlative rather than causal. Entropy may not cause an arrow of time but the fact that it seems to run in one direction may show that it exists (even if its actual existence is grounded upon something else). Also, I think there is some debate about whether the universe itself is a 'closed system' so to speak.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3432 on: July 10, 2017, 09:22:40 pm »
While this is true, the probabilities run in one direction only. Suppose that gas molecules are clustered in the corner of some closed system at t1. We expect it to spread through the system by t2 but not by t-1. The statistics must posit an arrow of time.
Having said that, I'm not sure what the relationship between entropy and the arrow of time really amounts to. It could be merely correlative rather than causal. Entropy may not cause an arrow of time but the fact that it seems to run in one direction may show that it exists (even if its actual existence is grounded upon something else). Also, I think there is some debate about whether the universe itself is a 'closed system' so to speak.

Probabilities don't cause anything. Finding those molecules of gas clustered in the corner of a container wouldn't break any physical law, it would just be so unlikely that it would never happen.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3433 on: July 10, 2017, 09:25:54 pm »
Probabilities don't cause anything. Finding those molecules of gas clustered in the corner of a container wouldn't break any physical law, it would just be so unlikely that it would never happen.
Whilst momentary order can occur by chance, the direction is always towards disorder.
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3434 on: July 10, 2017, 09:26:19 pm »
Probabilities don't cause anything. Finding those molecules of gas clustered in the corner of a container wouldn't break any physical law, it would just be so unlikely that it would never happen.

No, I think it would be impossible. For entropy to decrease would require the second law of thermodynamics to be broken. The statistics apply to the movement of individual molecules/ particles. It is their movement that is statistical. But entropy itself is not statistical, it is governed by thermodynamic laws that, as far as we know, are necessary.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 09:28:02 pm by vagabond »
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3435 on: July 10, 2017, 09:29:32 pm »

Offline Conocinico

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3436 on: July 10, 2017, 09:35:25 pm »
Whilst momentary order can occur by chance, the direction is always towards disorder.

Yes I agree.

No, I think it would be impossible. For entropy to increase would require the second law of thermodynamics to be broken. The statistics apply to the movement of individual molecules/ particles. It is their movement that is statistical. But entropy itself is not statistical, it is governed by thermodynamic laws that, as far as we know, are necessary.

If you agree that microstates are statistical then you must agree that the probability of any macrostate occurring would also be statistical.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3437 on: July 10, 2017, 09:36:48 pm »
Quote
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is statistical in nature, and therefore its reliability arises from the huge number of particles present in macroscopic systems. It is not impossible, in principle, for all 6 × 1023 atoms in a mole of a gas to spontaneously migrate to one half of a container; it is only fantastically unlikely—so unlikely that no macroscopic violation of the Second Law has ever been observed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3438 on: July 10, 2017, 11:09:09 pm »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Re: Richard Dawkins
« Reply #3439 on: August 3, 2017, 02:50:20 pm »