Topic: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team

[Coolie High]

How much have you seen Dahoud? I don't shy away from the fact I've seen little.


But yeah I don't think a 20 y.o walks into the club and within a few weeks  beats out the captain and current international. Dahoud only just made your international debut.....for the u21's against Faroe Island.


I'm not saying Klopp is spending that on a bit part player either, I'm saying he'd be a bit part player in his first season. There is a difference. Inflation adjust Henderson probably cost about the same and he's not 20 anymore. He's developed now in his prime and has the advantage of knowing the league, knowing the manager and knowing the team.

Being a captain and England international doesn't mean much, its just status, in reality there are better Cms than Milner in nearly every team in this league, and more than a handful of Cms better than Henderson too, Henderson is in his prime and still yet to have a good season as an actual CM, as the one or one of the two(not on the side of a diamond), whether at 20 or now, its clear Hendo doesn't have certain qualities that enables him to excel at that position. Dahoud does it seems, age is irrelevant, Wilshere was 19 when he broke through as one of the most promising deep lying playmakers in Europe, and he is still yet to have a season similar to that one.

[Djimi Smicer34]

How much have you seen Dahoud? I don't shy away from the fact I've seen little.


But yeah I don't think a 20 y.o walks into the club and within a few weeks  beats out the captain and current international. Dahoud only just made your international debut.....for the u21's against Faroe Island.


I'm not saying Klopp is spending that on a bit part player either, I'm saying he'd be a bit part player in his first season. There is a difference. Inflation adjust Henderson probably cost about the same and he's not 20 anymore. He's developed now in his prime and has the advantage of knowing the league, knowing the manager and knowing the team.

Enough to think that there is no way that Dahoud is coming here to be a bit part, even in his first season.  I watch quite a lot of the Bundesliga these days and Dahoud is up there with the best young players in Germany; Sane, Tah, Meyer, Brandt.  Sign any of them and they'd be competing for a regular place here, irrespective of their age and experience.  Quality is quality and German clubs are producing young players of a very high quality right now.

If we get Dahoud then I'd fully expect him and Can to be Klopp's starting midfield of choice.  That's not in any way a slight on Henderson who I like and think is a good player but Dahoud is good enough to be a regular here now and I think he would be.  It's not even a question when it comes to Milner, Dahoud starts at CM every day of the week over him.

Klopp has never shied away from trusting in youth over experience as long as the players in question have the ablility and quality to justify that faith.  Dahoud has them in abundance.  Remains to be seen whether we get him or not but if we do we'll have a player good enough to come into and add real quality to our starting eleven now as well as for the long term.

[plura]

How much have you seen Dahoud? I don't shy away from the fact I've seen little.


But yeah I don't think a 20 y.o walks into the club and within a few weeks  beats out the captain and current international. Dahoud only just made your international debut.....for the u21's against Faroe Island.


I'm not saying Klopp is spending that on a bit part player either, I'm saying he'd be a bit part player in his first season. There is a difference. Inflation adjust Henderson probably cost about the same and he's not 20 anymore. He's developed now in his prime and has the advantage of knowing the league, knowing the manager and knowing the team.

If Dahoud comes in and proves his worth and Klopp don't feel he can bench the club captain then something is very wrong within the club. Such a status thing should have no effect on who plays or not, but you should be able to expect a club captain to be a starting player due to his performance and experience nothing else. So if he doesn't pull in the performances, or fit into the style for our midfield then that's a bloody shame but not much more, and it's up to him to again prove that he belongs there.

In a midfield of two, where Can plays as one of the midfielders we need/Klopp wants a Gudongan/Sahin?Modric type = Dahoud perhaps? So much is very clear, Henderson isn't that one so much we also knows. So what the future holds for our captain is difficult to say, similar for Milner perhaps. But you can't take away though the fact that both of them are on their days great players to have in your squad and hopefully they can prove that again next season.

[thisyearisouryear]

If Dahoud comes in, he is going to be a starter I think.
First XI could look something like this:

                 Sturridge       
     Coutinho   Firmino  Mane
         Can  Dahoud/CB    
 Hector/LB Lovren Matip Clyne
                 Karius

[rednationals]

---------------------------------------------------------------
*Reserved for players with Homegrown status*

1) Nathaniel Clyne
2) James Milner
3) Jordan Henderson
4) Daniel Sturridge
5) Adam Lallana
6) Danny Ings
7) Jon Flannagan
8. Joe Allen
-------------------------------------------------------------
9) Loris Karius
10) Simon Mignolet
11) Dejan Lovren
12) Mamadou Sakho
13) Alberto Moreno
14) Joël Matip
15) Philippe Coutinho
16) Emre Can
17)  Sadio Mané
18) Roberto Firmino
19) Lucas
20) Kevin Stewart (HG)
21) Tiago Ilori
22) Brad Smith (HG)
23) Lazar Marković
24) Christian Benteke
25)

Players born after January 1, 1995 (number of future seasons they can remain on U21 status):
no limit on how many can be registered

Divock Origi
Joe Gomez (2)
Marko Grujic (1)
Cameron Brannagan (1)
Ryan Kent (1)
Sheyi Ojo (2)
Trent Alexander-Arnold (3)
Ovie Ejaria (2)
Shamal George (3)
Connor Randall
Ben Woodburn (4)
Pedro Chirivella (2)
Lloyd Jones
Jordan Williams
Allan* (2)
Harry Wilson (2)

Sell:

Balotelli, Bogdan, Wisdom, Luis Alberto,

Possibly sell:

Benteke, Allen, Smith, Lucas, Ilori, Stewart, Markovic


1 free spot for a new signing, plus addition spots available for each 'possibly sell' player sold. With the one minor caveat of if you sell all of Allen, Smith, and Stewart, they could only be replaced by a maximum of 3 foreign players (counting the 1 available spot)

As usual, there isn't much need to worry about leaving any quality players off the PL squad list or to worry about signing too many foreign lads.

[DanA]

---------------------------------------------------------------
*Reserved for players with Homegrown status*

1) Nathaniel Clyne
2) James Milner
3) Jordan Henderson
4) Daniel Sturridge
5) Adam Lallana
6) Danny Ings
7) Jon Flannagan
8. Joe Allen
-------------------------------------------------------------
9) Loris Karius
10) Simon Mignolet
11) Dejan Lovren
12) Mamadou Sakho
13) Alberto Moreno
14) Joël Matip
15) Philippe Coutinho
16) Emre Can
17)  Sadio Mané
18) Roberto Firmino
19) Lucas
20) Kevin Stewart (HG)
21) Tiago Ilori
22) Brad Smith (HG)
23) Lazar Marković
24) Christian Benteke
25)

Players born after January 1, 1995 (number of future seasons they can remain on U21 status):
no limit on how many can be registered

Divock Origi
Joe Gomez (2)
Marko Grujic (1)
Cameron Brannagan (1)
Ryan Kent (1)
Sheyi Ojo (2)
Trent Alexander-Arnold (3)
Ovie Ejaria (2)
Shamal George (3)
Connor Randall
Ben Woodburn (4)
Pedro Chirivella (2)
Lloyd Jones
Jordan Williams
Allan* (2)
Harry Wilson (2)

Sell:

Balotelli, Bogdan, Wisdom, Luis Alberto,

Possibly sell:

Benteke, Allen, Smith, Lucas, Ilori, Stewart, Markovic


1 free spot for a new signing, plus addition spots available for each 'possibly sell' player sold. With the one minor caveat of if you sell all of Allen, Smith, and Stewart, they could only be replaced by a maximum of 3 foreign players (counting the 1 available spot)

As usual, there isn't much need to worry about leaving any quality players off the PL squad list or to worry about signing too many foreign lads.

Flanagan is obviously HG so all of Allen, Stewart and Smith could be replaced with foreign players if desired. Is Ilori, not sure but I don't think there is any issues with the quota for domestic football.

[Uncle Ronnie]

Ilori was born in England, so I assume he's HG

[rednationals]

Ilori was born in England, so I assume he's HG

you assume wrong.

Its based off of where you trained between age 16-21. Minimum of 3 full seasons or 36 months at a club in England or Wales. Being born in England or having English parents doesn't mean anything.

[rednationals]

Flanagan is obviously HG so all of Allen, Stewart and Smith could be replaced with foreign players if desired. Is Ilori, not sure but I don't think there is any issues with the quota for domestic football.

But I already had Flanno on the HG list.  Its not really too important a point, but I just meant there is one space free in the squad that I showed, so that can be filled by anyone. If that person is foreign, and then you say, well it says I can sell to buy for whatever I need, and I pick Allen, Stewart, and Smith.  Well, if you only pick those three, then at least one of your new buys has to be a HG or else you would exceed the 17 limit of senior foreign players. But the odds of all of that happening and also not selling Benteke or Ilori makes it a moot point.

There is a quota for the PL, but its slightly easier than for UEFA. UEFA, breaks down the 8 Homegrown players even further to say that at least 4 of the homegrown must be club grown, and their U21 list is unlimited just like the PL, but they have to have been with you for 2 years to qualify for UEFA, while PL has no such rule.

[DanA]

But I already had Flanno on the HG list.  Its not really too important a point, but I just meant there is one space free in the squad that I showed, so that can be filled by anyone. If that person is foreign, and then you say, well it says I can sell to buy for whatever I need, and I pick Allen, Stewart, and Smith.  Well, if you only pick those three, then at least one of your new buys has to be a HG or else you would exceed the 17 limit of senior foreign players. But the odds of all of that happening and also not selling Benteke or Ilori makes it a moot point.

There is a quota for the PL, but its slightly easier than for UEFA. UEFA, breaks down the 8 Homegrown players even further to say that at least 4 of the homegrown must be club grown, and their U21 list is unlimited just like the PL, but they have to have been with you for 2 years to qualify for UEFA, while PL has no such rule.

Sorry must have got muddled.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Already an open thread on this...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=328843.msg14785400#new

[CraigDS]

Is Smith classed as home grown?

[rednationals]

Already an open thread on this...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=328843.msg14785400#new

I would argue that this thread is different in nature, as it is a look at the squad through the lens of the PL squad rules and not a discussion on if the squad is strong enough or who should start and who should make the bench, etc.

[rednationals]

Is Smith classed as home grown?

yes, hence the (HG) by his name. Only 8 spots of the 25 are reserved exclusively for home grown players. The remaining 17 can be foreign or homegrown.  For instance, if we sell Allen, then we could move Smith into the HG exclusive slot, and then a slot would be open to sign any player we wanted.

[Kopenhagen]

Is Karius HG?

[Ratboy3G]

Is Karius HG?

No

[Gnurglan]

Looks to be on the safe side.

Clyne, Henderson, Lallana, Milner, Ings, Sturridge, Allen and Flanagan are first team or squad members which is good. Age shouldn't be a problem either, they all have some years left in them. At the other end, we have a few options in for example Gomez, Brannagan and Ojo. This is good news.

When we put together the squad, we should think about for example Origi and Grujic as already being members of the 25. It won't be long before they need to be registered and I want us to be able to add a player or two in case of emergency. When we have an Academy that produces good enough players to be backup (at least), that's something we can afford and it could hopefully prove to be a winning strategy in the long run.

[clinical]

Wijnaldum is an okay signing but if Allen and Lucas leave we are relying on Henderson and Milner to cover Can in the deep CM position if he gets injured. I'm a little worried about that.

We saw how vital Kante was to Leicester

[Aceldama]

I was going to do a post about how in Europe it's four club trained home grown players plus four association trained home growns and how we only have two of he former, then I remembered we're not in Europe 😢

[DanA]

Wijnaldum is an okay signing but if Allen and Lucas leave we are relying on Henderson and Milner to cover Can in the deep CM position if he gets injured. I'm a little worried about that.

For the reasons you've mentioned Lucas, to my thinking at least, is still a required player. Allen didn't appear to be playing deep under Klopp anyway, seemed like Klopp was using him further forward in positions that Wijnaldum, Dahoud or Zielinksi would seem better suited too.  The recent links and pre-season games has me thinking Klopp is looking more at a 4-3-3 type set up. Probably good news for Henderson, Milner, Lucas and Can. Not so good for Lallana, Firmino and Allen. Not saying they'll be off loaded, just that they don't have natural fits in a 4-3-3. Then against Klopp has every right to adjust formations as he sees fit.

[clinical]

For the reasons you've mentioned Lucas, to my thinking at least, is still a required player. Allen didn't appear to be playing deep under Klopp anyway, seemed like Klopp was using him further forward in positions that Wijnaldum, Dahoud or Zielinksi would seem better suited too.  The recent links and pre-season games has me thinking Klopp is looking more at a 4-3-3 type set up. Probably good news for Henderson, Milner, Lucas and Can. Not so good for Lallana, Firmino and Allen. Not saying they'll be off loaded, just that they don't have natural fits in a 4-3-3. Then against Klopp has every right to adjust formations as he sees fit.

I too think we may move to a 4-3-3 rather than the 4-3-3-1 Klopp usually implements. Maybe that is because we can't get Dahoud? I am a big fan of the 4-2-3-1 as it served us so well under rafa too and we had one of if not the best midfields in the world.

I think we've missed a controlling midfielder since Alonso went (7 years?). And for me he's still not been replaced. We find it difficult to control the pace of a game and have a top passer in there. Gerrard did okay in 13/14 and you saw how much it improved us. But he lacked the defensive discipline. Alonso was actually very good at defending too. Hopefully we get Dahoud in for that role and he can be like how Gundogan/Sahin was for Klopp.

That postion and the LB are the two where we really need to improve. It's there for all to see. I'm sure Klopp sees it. 

[tubby]

I too think we may move to a 4-3-3 rather than the 4-3-3-1 Klopp usually implements.

No wonder he's won so many matches.

[DanA]

My best guess now would be:

                                           Karius
                                          Mignolet

Clyne                     Matip                      Sakho                Moreno
Flanagan                Lovren                    Klavan?               Chillwell?

                                              Can
                                          Stewart

                       Henderson                   Wijnaldum?
                         Milner                           Karius
         
              Mane                                                 Coutinho
            Markovic                                               Lallana
 
                                      Sturridge
                                         Origi
                                        Firmino
                                          Ings                                             

At the moment I personally still think Lucas is required as I don't trust Stewart to cover for Can but not sure Klopp agrees. I suspect Markovic will leave making way for Ojo but not ready to exclude Lazar from thinking either yet. Ilori, Gomez, Ojo also floating around the squad outside this group. Alberto, Smith, Allen, Benteke, Balotelli, Wisdom, Bogdon the players I would move on.

[DanA]

No wonder he's won so many matches.

Old school. Keeper included, 3 at the back and four strikers

[Medellin]

I'd be pretty happy to start the season with..

              Karius

Clyne Matip Lovren Hector
             
               Can
    Hendo         Giorgio

Mane                     Phil
             Studge

Looks likely to be a very good bench with that first 11 too.

[clinical]

I also think Klopp will start Milner ahead of Henderson in the 3

[Messiah]

I'm fairly certain Firmino will be a starter.

[SerbianScouser]

I'm fairly certain Firmino will be a starter.

He`s easily one of the first names on the team-sheet, you don`t bench this kind of player.

[lorenzo]

I also think Klopp will start Milner ahead of Henderson in the 3

No chance.

[JackWard33]

I also think Klopp will start Milner ahead of Henderson in the 3

Based on?

[sms1986]

My best guess now would be:

                                           Karius
                                          Mignolet

Clyne                     Matip                      Sakho                Moreno
Flanagan                Lovren                    Klavan?               Chillwell?

                                              Can
                                          Stewart

                       Henderson                   Wijnaldum?
                         Milner                           Karius
         
              Mane                                                 Coutinho
            Markovic                                               Lallana
 
                                      Sturridge
                                         Origi
                                        Firmino
                                          Ings                                             

At the moment I personally still think Lucas is required as I don't trust Stewart to cover for Can but not sure Klopp agrees. I suspect Markovic will leave making way for Ojo but not ready to exclude Lazar from thinking either yet. Ilori, Gomez, Ojo also floating around the squad outside this group. Alberto, Smith, Allen, Benteke, Balotelli, Wisdom, Bogdon the players I would move on.

How come it says Karius twice?

[clinical]

Based on?

How highly Klopp rates Milner.

And Milner has the stats from last season to back it up. It's up to Henderson to force his way back in imo. I think Henderson is the better player when fit.

[Nessy76]

My best guess now would be:

                                           Karius
                                          Mignolet

Clyne                     Matip                      Sakho                Moreno
Flanagan                Lovren                    Klavan?               Chillwell?

                                              Can
                                          Stewart

                       Henderson                   Wijnaldum?
                         Milner                           Karius
         
              Mane                                                 Coutinho
            Markovic                                               Lallana
 
                                      Sturridge
                                         Origi
                                        Firmino
                                          Ings                                             

At the moment I personally still think Lucas is required as I don't trust Stewart to cover for Can but not sure Klopp agrees. I suspect Markovic will leave making way for Ojo but not ready to exclude Lazar from thinking either yet. Ilori, Gomez, Ojo also floating around the squad outside this group. Alberto, Smith, Allen, Benteke, Balotelli, Wisdom, Bogdon the players I would move on.

Don't see Firmino getting left out too often. Wijnaldum would be the one with more to prove of the two of them, if he wants to get into this team, he has to be good enough. We know Firmino is good enough. Also, why is Karius providing backup to the midfield?

[lorenzo]

How highly Klopp rates Milner.

And Milner has the stats from last season to back it up. It's up to Henderson to force his way back in imo. I think Henderson is the better player when fit.

Stats playing where mate? RW if i am not mistaken.

[Nessy76]

Stats playing where mate? RW if i am not mistaken.

Milner was playing in both a deeper 3 and an attacking 3 last season, sometimes switching roles during a match. He was taking corners from both roles, too, which is where a lot of his good figures seem to come from. (I actually rate him more than that sentence implies.)

I'd expect Henderson to be the more natural choice as a more defensive/box-to-box player, but both have been very versatile and I think both will get games.

[fowlermagic]

I too think we may move to a 4-3-3 rather than the 4-3-3-1 Klopp usually implements. Maybe that is because we can't get Dahoud? I am a big fan of the 4-2-3-1 as it served us so well under rafa too and we had one of if not the best midfields in the world.

I think we've missed a controlling midfielder since Alonso went (7 years?). And for me he's still not been replaced. We find it difficult to control the pace of a game and have a top passer in there. Gerrard did okay in 13/14 and you saw how much it improved us. But he lacked the defensive discipline. Alonso was actually very good at defending too. Hopefully we get Dahoud in for that role and he can be like how Gundogan/Sahin was for Klopp.

That postion and the LB are the two where we really need to improve. It's there for all to see. I'm sure Klopp sees it. 

As you said our team is sadly lacking a controlling midfielder who is capable of looking up and dictating the play forward. One of the key positions in the team that has suffered and only briefly we surpassed those issues by sliding SG in there but it was a brief respite. Don't want to be disparaging of our current crop but they look like boys at the tiller when you compare them to what Alonso gave us. My only hope is Can will step up this season and place his authority on our midfield while I still think its worth a gamble to throw Coutinho into a slightly deeper role than he use to. He is one of the few lads we have who can see a pass before he receives the ball.

[lorenzo]

Milner was playing in both a deeper 3 and an attacking 3 last season, sometimes switching roles during a match. He was taking corners from both roles, too, which is where a lot of his good figures seem to come from. (I actually rate him more than that sentence implies.)

I'd expect Henderson to be the more natural choice as a more defensive/box-to-box player, but both have been very versatile and I think both will get games.

I know he played in a number of position but that sentence i quoted implied that he has good numbers from playing CM. As good as Milner has been in number of position, the few games we saw Henderson/Can together was another level to Milner.

Just my view but i can't see Henderson being dropped for Milner if we are talking about CM 2.

[Nessy76]

As you said our team is sadly lacking a controlling midfielder who is capable of looking up and dictating the play forward. One of the key positions in the team that has suffered and only briefly we surpassed those issues by sliding SG in there but it was a brief respite. Don't want to be disparaging of our current crop but they look like boys at the tiller when you compare them to what Alonso gave us. My only hope is Can will step up this season and place his authority on our midfield while I still think its worth a gamble to throw Coutinho into a slightly deeper role than he use to. He is one of the few lads we have who can see a pass before he receives the ball.

I think Alonso would be a bit lost in a Klopp side, to be honest. He seems to want us to win the ball all over the pitch, rather than have a "man with a mop" approach as under Rafa. He also wants quicker transitions, and while Alonso's distribution was wonderful, I don't think he ever really put in the workrate that Klopp seems to like so much.

In Can, we have a very different sort of player, he's never going to spray those thirty yard passes over the pitch, but he will carry the ball forwards more often, and is more pro-active in getting it back. Alonso could read the game wonderfully, but he didn't tackle. For me, the whole Heavy Metal Football thing suggests we'll be a bit more gung-ho, with men flying forwards, winning balls all over the pitch and applying instant pressure, rather than the build up and sucker-punch of a long Alonso pass flicked on by Gerrard for Torres to race onto.

[Nessy76]

I know he played in a number of position but that sentence i quoted implied that he has good numbers from playing CM. As good as Milner has been in number of position, the few games we saw Henderson/Can together was another level to Milner.

Just my view but i can't see Henderson being dropped for Milner if we are talking about CM 2.

I tend to agree, I'd put Henderson ahead for the deeper role. With so few games, there will be players missing out all over.

[Sarge]

may as well stick this in here too.

I can still see us get a LB and a CM even with Wijnaldum and Kanas signed. Just taking this XI as a maybe not saying it will be so, looking at this it is tasty. LB & CM vital for us more now as i am very excited about this squad.       

                                  Karius

     Clyne        Matip                    Lovren         LB
             
                  Can                                   CM     

        Mane                 Coutinho                 Firminio
             
                                 Sturridge

Subs: Mignolet, Moreno, Sakho, Henderson, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Ings.

That is some 18 and we still have Klavan, Gomez, Smith, Randall, Flanagan, Stewart, Grujic, Kent Brannagan, Milner, Origi.

Honestly can see Bogdan, Ilori, Wisdom, Lucas, Allen, Markovic, Benteke and Balotelli going out this Summer.

Bet ya i am missing someone