Author Topic: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team  (Read 64278 times)

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« on: July 1, 2016, 04:02:49 am »
I think it's worth discussing the 2016/17 Liverpool side as it likely stands heading into pre-season. Obviously there still could be a few players coming in and most definitely there will be a few going out but I wanted to avoid transfer discussion as much as possible and look at what we currently have as a team and how if fits together.

To me the team will likely be:

                                         Karius
                                       Mignolet
 
 Clyne               Lovren                  Sakho             Moreno
Flanagan           Gomez                    Matip              **Gomez
   
                        Henderson               Can
   
                       Milner                     Lucas

            Mane              *Firmino            Coutinho
           Lallana                  Ings              Markovic/Ojo
   
                                    Sturridge
                                       Origi
 
*Firmino/Ings as more no.7, CF or 2nd striker types in this formation than the no.10 type associated with the position behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1 traditional thought of.
** Probably a young LB to come in if rumours are true
 
On so many levels this team works better than last season. Lets remember the first two games we started the season with:

                     Mignolet
Clyne     Skrtel      Lovren     Gomez
          Henderson      Milner
       Ibe          Lallana      Coutinho
                       Benteke

The next few games we switching to a 4-3-3 with Firmino/Coutinho out wide and the extra AM in Lallana coming out for Lucas (as a DM) causing a new set of problems. In terms of balance last seasons side started out a complete mess, many including myself were dismayed with this. Not enough goals, very little pace, an unbalanced DM/CM partnership and a CB pairing that played very different styles. I don't think it's revisionism, it was heavily discussed at the time and obvious to most, IMO a big part of why so many were losing faith in Rodgers despite the wonderful football he gave us in 2013/14.

Klopp's brought a far more pragmatic style of football but still suffered from the lack of balance in the squad, it's nice this summer to see some improvements in terms of quality; Karius an obvious upgrade, Mane compared to Ibe and a fit Sturridge vs Benteke. But more than that I think the cohesion of the new squad overall brings me confidence. We should see a far more coherent game style this coming season with players that compliment each other better. Squad is coming together nicely IMO.

I'm interested to hear others opinions are but I'm excited by the potential this side has to scoring on transition.  Last season we did a good job pressing but Benteke was obviously the wrong striker to capitalize and while it was a lot better with Origi or Sturridge up front I still felt Lallana, Coutinho and Firmino in combination lacked the explosiveness to support our striker in the "Gegenpressing" style of play. It was good and one thing I thought was encouraging was Origi and Sturridge as a striker partnership, in a very small sample size they scored at an incredible rate together and I hope it is explored further this season, but I felt we clearly needed a second pace player, Mane the key addition here.  Mane brings the pre-requisite level of pressing we've been seeing from Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana but adds a missing and much need element of not only pace but finishing ability. As good as the other three have been, and you could add Milner, I think we could get more from them with a player like Mane able to get in behind defences providing a second threat in addition to a mobile striker leading the line.

To me this team still has issues. Karius isn't great coming for crosses and we've still got two undersized fullbacks if we start Moreno and Clyne, with Moreno a little era prone. That leaves me thinking we're still going to be vulnerable at corners and set pieces and a little vulnerable down the left side. The potential suspension looming for Sakho could disrupt the continuity developing between our CB partnership and I worry about the suitability of our four midfield options (Can, Henderson, Milner and Lucas) in a midfield two. I suppose I want to know what people think in terms of:
1) How you see the team setting up?
2) What will be our big strengths and biggest problems this season?
3) How do we get better?
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Wingman

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,941
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #1 on: July 1, 2016, 07:11:07 am »
We've signed a goalie, he'll probably play in goal. A central defender who might play in central defence and a wide forward who might play anywhere in the top 4 positions. We may sign more players, we may sell some. The first game of the season is 6 weeks away and an awful lot may happen between now and then, including (but let's hope not) an injury or two. What's the point of showing the line up from the first game of last season? It was dependent on who was fit and it was picked by a different manager to play different opposition.

Take a break, enjoy the summer rain

Offline Upinsmoke

  • Is a grump, get used to it.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,196
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #2 on: July 1, 2016, 07:15:07 am »
1) In terms of personnel I see the team similar to you although I think Matip might get the nod ahead of Sakho.

I think one interesting thing is where we play Mane if as many presume we will have a front four including Sturridge/Origi, coutinho and Firmino. I know he can play from the sides but he's very effective from central positions, so I'm not sure where he will play, we may even see a change of formation, OK it might look like he's out wide on paper but I'm not sure he will be. I see alot of interchanging in that three behind the number 9, even Ings is versatile in that regard. I think we will probably be quite narrow as we were at times last season with the full backs providing the main width, and Mane might might end up alongside/Beyond Sturridge at times, so we end up looking like a 4222.

Also another problem may be controlling games as i still see us controlling the game through that front four as the pressure they can apply rather than a midfield two that is able to control a game and dictate the tempo and is good under pressure,

2) I think a bigger strength will hopefully be defending and attacking set pieces better, Matip is a tall player and I think he could make alot of difference. Also the addition of Mane gives us pace and directness to pounce on the opposition when they are out of position that maybe we didn't have at times last season. As you say fullbacks are a concern with crosses as we got done quite a few times in the air and the fact moreno is still a massive liability which we might not remedy is worrying.

3) We get better by having a longer period of time to train honestly. We seen the improvements with limited time under Klopp last season, more prep time and further understanding of how he wants us to play should do everyone the world of good. I also think we get better by having the ability to adjust how we attack, we can probe through the likes of coutinho but we can counter through Mane, we have Origi who showed what he offers differently to Sturridge, we just have more options to be better.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2016, 07:19:49 am by Upinsmoke »

Offline Floydy

  • G is for grumpy. It is modest understatement.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,324
  • Hidden in the shadows, Orchestrating life
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #3 on: July 1, 2016, 08:10:01 am »
no Marko Grujic?  good post though Dan
Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.  Albert Einstein.  
Unquestionable trust in authority is the enemy of truth. Albert Einstein
Wake up to the war on for your mind!

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #4 on: July 1, 2016, 08:15:46 am »
Striker should be interesting. At the moment I'd imagine he'll be starting with Origi.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #5 on: July 1, 2016, 08:16:53 am »
We've signed a goalie, he'll probably play in goal. A central defender who might play in central defence and a wide forward who might play anywhere in the top 4 positions. We may sign more players, we may sell some. The first game of the season is 6 weeks away and an awful lot may happen between now and then, including (but let's hope not) an injury or two. What's the point of showing the line up from the first game of last season? It was dependent on who was fit and it was picked by a different manager to play different opposition.

Take a break, enjoy the summer rain

I talked about the first four games and the point was to show just how unbalanced the squad was and how much more coherent it looks now with the options we have, that suits the managers style of play. I know it's a waste of time and early but I'm home sick, it's the middle of winter here and I'm bored shitless, oh and football is my break from mind numbing Netflix and eating porridge because that's all I can be fucked cooking.

1) In terms of personnel I see the team similar to you although I think Matip might get the nod ahead of Sakho.

I think one interesting thing is where we play Mane if as many presume we will have a front four including Sturridge/Origi, coutinho and Firmino. I know he can play from the sides but he's very effective from central positions, so I'm not sure where he will play, we may even see a change of formation, OK it might look like he's out wide on paper but I'm not sure he will be. I see alot of interchanging in that three behind the number 9, even Ings is versatile in that regard. I think we will probably be quite narrow as we were at times last season with the full backs providing the main width, and Mane might might end up alongside/Beyond Sturridge at times, so we end up looking like a 4222.

Also another problem may be controlling games as i still see us controlling the game through that front four as the pressure they can apply rather than a midfield two that is able to control a game and dictate the tempo and is good under pressure,

2) I think a bigger strength will hopefully be defending and attacking set pieces better, Matip is a tall player and I think he could make alot of difference. Also the addition of Mane gives us pace and directness to pounce on the opposition when they are out of position that maybe we didn't have at times last season. As you say fullbacks are a concern with crosses as we got done quite a few times in the air and the fact moreno is still a massive liability which we might not remedy is worrying.

3) We get better by having a longer period of time to train honestly. We seen the improvements with limited time under Klopp last season, more prep time and further understanding of how he wants us to play should do everyone the world of good. I also think we get better by having the ability to adjust how we attack, we can probe through the likes of coutinho but we can counter through Mane, we have Origi who showed what he offers differently to Sturridge, we just have more options to be better.

I can definitely see us having issues controlling the tempo and games though midfield as you mention, think that's a really good point. And I do envisage Mane playing further forward than say Coutinho with some flexibility in that attack in terms of rotating positions.

I doubt we'll be any good defending and attacking set pieces though. As good as Matip is we have relatively shit options in terms of delivering the ball compared to past with Suarez and Gerrard. And we're going to be kind of small defending. I think he improves things, perhaps Karius does too but I still think it's a concern.



 
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #6 on: July 1, 2016, 08:20:50 am »
no Marko Grujic?  good post though Dan

Nope. Could be wrong but I don't think he gets a look in with the current midfield group. It's a pretty experienced group that I think will be hard to break into but perhaps what could be considered a relatively low ceiling. There's certainly no peak Alonso or Gerrard in there.

Striker should be interesting. At the moment I'd imagine he'll be starting with Origi.

My feeling is Sturridge is still a class above, and if fit he's the man but the way Origi has progressed it's going to be a battle. And as  I mentioned it could be that they play there way into both starting, the partnership was hugely successful in the limited glimpse we got of it this last season.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline vivabobbygraham

  • Waiting for the silver bus. Gobshites- united- will never be defeated. Whip him, beat him, call him Barbara, he can live with it. Self confessed c*nt (apparently)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,411
  • The boys pen cured my acne
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #7 on: July 1, 2016, 08:57:31 am »
Grujic starts the season. You read it here
...If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

  • surgood. As good as Suarez but CBA to play for us. Takes it on the chin and never holds a pointless grudge for several months.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,206
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #8 on: July 1, 2016, 09:20:57 am »
Think Dan's pretty much covered most of it in the OP itself.

The issues to sort out in time are Matip v Lovren / Sakho, Origi v Sturridge, Moreno v new leftback (chilwell / Robertson?), ball player in midfield.

The first two issues will naturally sort themselves out as the better or more suited players win their spots, we'll know the left-back by the close of the window. I hope for an upgrade for sure, it's never ideal to 'make-do', but if we can't get our man Moreno will do till the next window.

The midfield is a more interesting question. We certainly need to improve on how we dictate the game with the ball. Not just in attack, but also when we need to slow it down, invite them on to set up the counter etc. None of the current set have the technical precision nor the reading of the game to do it the way the best do. There aren't any clear upgrades that we can say for certain is going to nail down a spot there. Grujic you hope has the quality, in time. Zielinski seems the strongest link. I have seen him a number of times for Empoli. The thing to remember is the 4-3-1-2, commonly used in Italy has a much different division of responsibility compared to the 4-2-3-1. That 3, under most Italian coaches works as a very disciplined, unified line off the ball to cover the pitch for most game situations. The players in the 2 on the other hand have more of an individual demand on them, they tend to be the players backing up the defensive play depending on the side of the pitch being attacked by breaking off to support, your physical qualities are put to the test a lot more. The 3 in the Italian method doesn't have players breaking off as often to create defensive chains where they are needed. The 2 gives you more flexibility but it also demands more from the 2 players defensively. I look at Zielinski, I have my doubts he is physically equipped to do that. On the ball he is ok, but again, that Italian line of 3 offers you a lot of flexibility in the buildup, at the cost of losing an attacking outlet. The 4-2-3-1 will demand more of him with the ball as well in the build-up, though that demand isn't as big an issue / strenuous as the radical change he will face in his defensive responsibilities as a player in the 2. I'm thinking this difference in interpreting the role is also a major reason Poland didn't use him in their '2' of the roughly 4-4-1-1 they played at the euros.

Anyway sorry to ramble on about the midfield.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2016, 03:04:49 pm by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline SerbianScouser

  • Far from world class.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,808
  • ...All the best
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #9 on: July 1, 2016, 09:23:14 am »
The squad is shaping up very very nicely.

I have no doubt Mane will be a big hit while Karius and Matip don`t really need to be the best players in the world in their positions , giving us more than Mignolet and Skrtel should be straightforward.

We can get away with Moreno for another year but CM is still a burning issue. Signing of Mane pretty much confirms we`ll be committing fully to a 2 man midfield so I`ll be crossing my fingers for the club to find a best CM till September 1st that they possibly can. It`s not fair on Henderson on Milner to ask them to be that guy receiving passes from our defenders, playing out of pressure and moving the ball quickly into final third - it`s simply not their strength.

Also I`m very confident we`ll be quite effective in the final third - Coutinho, Firmino and Mane scored 29 PL goals between them last season which is more than any of our rival 3 AMs so it`s clear what Klopp is trying to achieve there by assembling front 4 with players who are genuine match winners so that they can all share goals between them instead of relying too much on one or two players.

Offline King Klopp.

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,355
  • From Doubter To Believer.
  • Super Title: And back to Doubter
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #10 on: July 1, 2016, 09:27:00 am »
Sakho will be sat on the bench. He's had enough chances. Lovren and Matip to start I expect which I'm looking forward to. Both very strong in the air.

We need a LB and CM badly. Sadly don't think we'll get either in terms of upgrades. Chilwell and Zielinski is who I'm expecting.

Really excited for that front 4 though because they have goals in them. Think they could get 50 between them or if they all were to hit peak form maybe even 60. If they gave us a base of 50 that wouldnt be bad though as the rest of the squad I'd think could get another 25 between them so 75 goals next season should be a realistic target. If we can do that and improve defensively then we might challenge that top 4. If we can get 85 goals then that's a title run.

CM is just a massive concern though. I really think we need a playmaker. Henderson runs around a lot but we need more.
Believe

Offline LFCsupporter

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,770
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #11 on: July 1, 2016, 10:02:21 am »
Ings?

Edit: Just spotted him in the same spot as Firminho. Think his best position was higher up,.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2016, 10:05:13 am by LFCsupporter »

Offline Ocean Red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Kopite
  • ******
  • Posts: 850
  • What doesn't kill you, makes you...stranger!!!
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #12 on: July 1, 2016, 10:13:50 am »
The squad already looks a lot stronger then last season, and the summer transfer window still has ages until it closes.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #13 on: July 1, 2016, 10:15:34 am »
Ings?

Edit: Just spotted him in the same spot as Firminho. Think his best position was higher up,.

I did say Firmino/Ings as more of a no.7, CF or 2nd striker. Do you mean higher up then that?
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Medellin

  • Self-confessed daft meff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,543
  • Sound
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #14 on: July 1, 2016, 10:18:30 am »
Good OP Dan.

From what we have right now that's as near as you will get.
A couple of positions not nailed on for me & that's Sakho & Sturridge,depends on the opposition & home/away a bit too.
Still hoping for a new LB too,hopefully we can land Hector.
The 4-2-3-1 will be how we roll.
Support the team,Trust & Believe.

Offline DutchRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,856
  • =
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #15 on: July 1, 2016, 10:58:43 am »

To me the team will likely be:

                                         Karius
                                       Mignolet
 
 Clyne               Lovren                  Sakho             Moreno
Flanagan           Gomez                    Matip              **Gomez
   
                        Henderson               Can
   
                       Milner                     Lucas

            Mane              *Firmino            Coutinho
           Lallana                  Ings              Markovic/Ojo
   
                                    Sturridge
                                       Origi


So this would mean that after we've filled every position twice, at least for now we'd have Skrtel, Benteke, Markovic, Allen and Grujic as well.. Not too bad.
It's just sex and violence, melody and silence.

Offline markedasred

  • Knowing me, Knowing you... ahaaa!!! Resident Large Canine.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,449
  • No Murdoch in our house
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #16 on: July 1, 2016, 11:35:51 am »
With the strengthening of the squad we have already had, plus Ings and Gomez as two extra signings in effect, the old chestnut of the flexible position player can take a back seat, with players who have had to be jack of all trades last season having the chance to shine in what they do best. Even better, most of them will have a full pre-season to do exactly that. It has been a few years since that happened.
"For those of you watching in black and white, Liverpool are the team with the ball"

Offline DyingAtheist

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,227
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #17 on: July 1, 2016, 11:43:09 am »
Left-back and CM look to be the two weakest positions for us on paper and if we strengthen anywhere I'd expect it to be there. Given the links to Dahoud and Chilwell it definitely appears to be the case.

Regardless, squad already looking much stronger. Exciting season ahead!

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,155
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #18 on: July 1, 2016, 12:10:23 pm »
Shaping up nicely.

Still crying out for a top class CM. Our CMs are all either not quite good enough, getting on, or still developing. I think we need to do all we can to sign someone who would be unarguably our best midfielder. Whether that is an Alonso string-puller or a Gerrard-esque goal-scoring talisman I do not know. 
Roger Scruton was right about everything.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #19 on: July 1, 2016, 01:36:48 pm »
I did say Firmino/Ings as more of a no.7, CF or 2nd striker. Do you mean higher up then that?

I think Ings will either be playing out wide or as a out and out striker.  I actually don't think he'll see very much time this year unless we collect a bunch of injuries again.

Is Grujic' best position as a #10 or as one of the 2 deeper in the midfield?  If he's seen as a #10 I think he'll be backup to Firmino and I think he'll see a good amount of time for a young player starting towards the middle of the season.  Think he'll be eased in.

I also see that you omitted Ibe and Markovic from your list.  I wouldn't write either of them off just yet. 

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #20 on: July 1, 2016, 02:03:55 pm »
Omitted Ibe who I suspect will go on loan.  Markovic is along side Ojo as possible LAM backup behind Coutinho. Really the five wide AM's are interchangeable in my mind.

I'm hardly an expert but from what I've seen Grujic isn't even close to good enough yet and I think Ings could challenge Firmino's starting place.

Think he's going under the radar after his injury but he looked pretty good last preseason.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #21 on: July 1, 2016, 02:34:16 pm »
Omitted Ibe who I suspect will go on loan.  Markovic is along side Ojo as possible LAM backup behind Coutinho. Really the five wide AM's are interchangeable in my mind.

I'm hardly an expert but from what I've seen Grujic isn't even close to good enough yet and I think Ings could challenge Firmino's starting place.

Think he's going under the radar after his injury but he looked pretty good last preseason.

I think that's a major long shot.  And I think you are vastly underrating Firmino as a player if you think there's a chance that he'll be 2nd choice. 

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,155
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #22 on: July 1, 2016, 02:51:21 pm »
I think Ings will either be playing out wide or as a out and out striker.  I actually don't think he'll see very much time this year unless we collect a bunch of injuries again.

I would not be surprised to see Ings come off the bench late on when we are protecting a lead. He seems good at that defensive forward type role that we saw Kuyt do.
Roger Scruton was right about everything.

Online Tobelius

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,319
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #23 on: July 1, 2016, 03:25:57 pm »
For me our problems in the buildup have stemmed from the midfield duo not being able to either quickly pick a player further forward or run with the ball themselves creating some space before the opposition defence gets settled,and for this problem even Mane's pace won't be a solution.

Imo our transition has at times looked slow and laboured,passes going behind the running forwards so they have to slow down to pick them up etc giving time for the defending team to settle.

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #24 on: July 1, 2016, 03:34:37 pm »
Really excited for that front 4 though because they have goals in them. Think they could get 50 between them or if they all were to hit peak form maybe even 60. If they gave us a base of 50 that wouldnt be bad though as the rest of the squad I'd think could get another 25 between them so 75 goals next season should be a realistic target. If we can do that and improve defensively then we might challenge that top 4. If we can get 85 goals then that's a title run.

Ooooh this is always a fun conversation.

Can you show your workings for this? What suggests that 85 goals is a title run?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #25 on: July 1, 2016, 05:18:58 pm »
Ooooh this is always a fun conversation.

Can you show your workings for this? What suggests that 85 goals is a title run?


Think the last two seasons have been under 75 goal with Man City winning with 101 (we finished 2nd scoring 100) and Man Utd winning with 86 the two seasons prior.

85 goals is a pretty good return and probably does get you a title challenge though not guaranteed.

In 2015/16 in the Prem League:
Mins per goal:
Sturridge 122
Origi 132
Ings 170
Firmino 198
Coutinho 250
Mane 237
Lallana 527
Milner 492

Some of the sample sizes are pretty small here so take them with a pinch of salt.

But I'm pretty confident Sturridge, Firmino, Coutinho and Mane can continue to score at that rate, doubtful Origi or Ings can.  And the benefit of less games should allow our top goal scorers to play a higher percentage of league mins.

But Sturridge has only averaged 17.25 league games per season since arriving and it's doubtful we'd get 30+ games out of him likely required to get 20+ goals.

Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #26 on: July 1, 2016, 06:11:08 pm »
I would not be surprised to see Ings come off the bench late on when we are protecting a lead. He seems good at that defensive forward type role that we saw Kuyt do.

Agreed

Offline Floydy

  • G is for grumpy. It is modest understatement.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,324
  • Hidden in the shadows, Orchestrating life
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #27 on: July 1, 2016, 11:32:15 pm »
Nope. Could be wrong but I don't think he gets a look in with the current midfield group. It's a pretty experienced group that I think will be hard to break into but perhaps what could be considered a relatively low ceiling. There's certainly no peak Alonso or Gerrard in there.
You either underestimate his ability as a player, or Klopps willingness to use him.  Klopp will build a team around this lad, in time it may be quite symbolic that he was JK's 1st signing.   A relly good player now, but with huge potential, you may see a Can, Henderson , Grujic middle.
Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.  Albert Einstein.  
Unquestionable trust in authority is the enemy of truth. Albert Einstein
Wake up to the war on for your mind!

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #28 on: July 2, 2016, 01:49:16 am »
You either underestimate his ability as a player, or Klopps willingness to use him.  Klopp will build a team around this lad, in time it may be quite symbolic that he was JK's 1st signing.   A relly good player now, but with huge potential, you may see a Can, Henderson , Grujic middle.

I assume we've seen the same videos and neither of us have watched him play regularly. I trust he's a talent I just don't think he's an instant success. Not from what I've seen compared to say what Milner is producing.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Ken Doral

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #29 on: July 2, 2016, 06:21:08 am »
Great OP and good discussion so far.

DanA is that lineup what you think we'll see against Arsenal, or the players most likely to see the most starts over the course of the season? I ask that particularly because I wonder whether Karius actually starts at the beginning of the season or if it takes some time for him to settle. Do you expect he wins the spot right away?

Also, Origi to me is this year's wildcard. I honestly think there's a ceiling of being amongst the league leaders in goals this upcoming year, but he is coming off the injury and has yet to be relied on consistently. What do you expect from him this year?

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #30 on: July 2, 2016, 06:45:27 am »
If not in the olympics I think Karius starts immediately. He's lived in Northern England before so there shouldn't be any language issues or major culture shock.

But it's more what I think we will predominantly play. One of the two options in that sort of system. Arsenal away is probably one of the rare times I think we might deviate setting up a bit differently.

There aren't going to be many harder assignments and I they will probably dominate possession so I'd try to combat that with an extra midfielder (Milner) instead of 2nd striker (Firmino).

Definitely could see Origi playing regularly either partnering Sturridge or along side him ahead of Firmino/Ings.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline FoolForPool

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #31 on: July 2, 2016, 07:18:26 am »
Great OP.  I like how the attack is forming and a style of play looks like it is coming together.  We definitely have options here.  The defence is also getting there with just a new LB really the only priority. It's the midfield where I still feel we don't have the quality.  It is the one place where I think we need real, proven quality to hold everything in place.  We have a lot of players who are young or have potential.  Which is great, but a quality midfielder will allow the others the time, space and growing room to mature in to quality players.  Henderson and Milner wont cut it and Can needs a few years to be that player. 

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #32 on: July 3, 2016, 01:31:03 am »
I'm not willing to write off Henderson and Can as a partnership that "won't cut it". Can improved significantly last season and could make another jump while Henderson at his best is a darn good player, he was completely hobbled last season.

They've held their own in games against the likes of Man Utd, Leicester, Man City, Chelsea, Everton and Arsenal.  Even Dortmund, we had a rather good record against the top teams and we've seen Man Utd sides with poor midfields dominate because they were better in attack and defence.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2016, 01:38:33 am by DanA »
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline xbugawugax

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,249
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #33 on: July 3, 2016, 04:09:20 am »
I'm not willing to write off Henderson and Can as a partnership that "won't cut it". Can improved significantly last season and could make another jump while Henderson at his best is a darn good player, he was completely hobbled last season.

They've held their own in games against the likes of Man Utd, Leicester, Man City, Chelsea, Everton and Arsenal.  Even Dortmund, we had a rather good record against the top teams and we've seen Man Utd sides with poor midfields dominate because they were better in attack and defence.

im with you on this one. Too many here already writing him off and thinks its the in thing to bash our captain.  Hendo season have been pretty start stop with injuries since Klopp took over.

I think our defence is pretty settled if Sakho can avoid the long ban. I still hope to see an addition to the forward line if Benteke goes. Unfortunate we don't have anyone from the youth to make that step up.

Midfield is where i'm still a bit worried. We need to control games a bit better and we don't have that guile and experience in the centre of the park to do that.


Offline jooneyisdagod

  • Doesn't like having pussy round the house
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,733
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #34 on: July 3, 2016, 04:19:10 am »
We really need better control in midfield and that lack of control has been hurting us badly for too long. I think Henderson is a good player but nothing I've seen of him tells me that is a controller. Can I think has potential though he's not there yet. More importantly, Can's runs forward are a serious weapon and having Henderson alongside him whose best attribute is his running in some ways negates Can's best attributes as it leaves massive holes behind, and we don't have the ability to compensate. I think Klopp recognises that based on the pursuit of Dahoud. I don't know much about the player but he is an obvious controller in midfield. We are really missing that at the moment.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline anoopvk

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • YNWA
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #35 on: July 3, 2016, 06:04:15 am »
We really need better control in midfield and that lack of control has been hurting us badly for too long. I think Henderson is a good player but nothing I've seen of him tells me that is a controller. Can I think has potential though he's not there yet. More importantly, Can's runs forward are a serious weapon and having Henderson alongside him whose best attribute is his running in some ways negates Can's best attributes as it leaves massive holes behind, and we don't have the ability to compensate. I think Klopp recognises that based on the pursuit of Dahoud. I don't know much about the player but he is an obvious controller in midfield. We are really missing that at the moment.
Can's best attribute is running with the ball, where as Henderson excels in running without the ball.
"We must turn from doubters to believers"

Offline spider-neil

  • Can watch 30 games in a day. He's not Spidey - he's Sway!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,823
  • does whatever a spider can, spins a web any size
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #36 on: July 3, 2016, 07:21:45 am »

Think the last two seasons have been under 75 goal with Man City winning with 101 (we finished 2nd scoring 100) and Man Utd winning with 86 the two seasons prior.



Wrong way round. We were the league's top scores with 101 goals. City second with 100.

Offline Phineus

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,846
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #37 on: July 3, 2016, 12:49:45 pm »
Is firmino back for full pre-season with no Copa America or Olympics?

Haven't seen him in pics but him and Mane with a full pre-season under them could be massive for first few games

Offline Schmidt

  • 's small stretchy scrotum
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,257
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #38 on: July 3, 2016, 12:53:23 pm »
We really need a plan for the fringe players. We have far too many to distribute games amongst them, better to keep one or two in each area of the pitch.

Goalkeeper: Karius, Mignolet | Ward, Bogdan, Fulton
- I'm guessing Ward goes on loan and Bogdan gets sold if possible. Fulton to be 3rd choice?

Centreback: Lovren, Sakho, Matip, Gomez | Wisdom, Ilori, Jones
- Wisdom to go I guess, Gomez likely 4th choice unless Ilori has a mega preseason. Jones is young still so U21s or a loan seems on the cards?

Midfield: Milner, Henderson, Lucas, Can, Allen | Grujic, Brannagan, Chirivella, Stewart
- You have to think that Grujic will be close to the bench/first XI. Maybe we'll see Lucas and Allen both leave with Milner playing higher up the pitch. Stewart probably needs to be moved on and the others could get a loan?

Attacking midfield: Milner, Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Lallana | Ibe, Kent, Ojo, Markovic, Alberto
- I think Ojo and Markovic will stay but Kent will go on loan and maybe Alberto and Ibe will be sold. That still leaves us with 7 players for 3 spots though.

Striker: Sturridge, Origi, Benteke, Ings | Balotelli
- I think we'll see Benteke go and Balotelli if we can somehow find a taker.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: An early look at the 2016/17 Liverpool team
« Reply #39 on: July 3, 2016, 02:13:16 pm »
We really need a plan for the fringe players. We have far too many to distribute games amongst them, better to keep one or two in each area of the pitch.

Goalkeeper: Karius, Mignolet | Ward, Bogdan, Fulton
- I'm guessing Ward goes on loan and Bogdan gets sold if possible. Fulton to be 3rd choice?

Centreback: Lovren, Sakho, Matip, Gomez | Wisdom, Ilori, Jones
- Wisdom to go I guess, Gomez likely 4th choice unless Ilori has a mega preseason. Jones is young still so U21s or a loan seems on the cards?

Midfield: Milner, Henderson, Lucas, Can, Allen | Grujic, Brannagan, Chirivella, Stewart
- You have to think that Grujic will be close to the bench/first XI. Maybe we'll see Lucas and Allen both leave with Milner playing higher up the pitch. Stewart probably needs to be moved on and the others could get a loan?

Attacking midfield: Milner, Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Lallana | Ibe, Kent, Ojo, Markovic, Alberto
- I think Ojo and Markovic will stay but Kent will go on loan and maybe Alberto and Ibe will be sold. That still leaves us with 7 players for 3 spots though.

Striker: Sturridge, Origi, Benteke, Ings | Balotelli
- I think we'll see Benteke go and Balotelli if we can somehow find a taker.

I think what happens with those players will be interesting for sure.  Klopp did say last year that it was better to "cool down" the loans and keep the best players playing with the 2nd team (u21's?) but with the lack of games for that age group I wonder if he'll change his mind.  I think a fair few of the bolded will be moved on before the start of the season.