Topic: An old codger's view on: Any Tom, DIC or Parry

[WOOLTONIAN]

Whatever next?

I've just been reading a thread regarding "Hicks - Sandon II", concerning an invite by a pub director to the owner of the club to pop in for a chat. The following is my opinion having kept my gob shut all week, but having read liquorice allsorts since last weekend.

Holding any meeting in a pub is starting on the wrong foot. And as for a set agenda on any questions for current or future owners, isn't that how we do things in a democracy. Does anyone believe Prime Ministers question time agenda is not set in advance?

Any meeting with the club directors should be held inside Anfield, away from the prying eyes of the press, That way we will not get the media whores trying to get their name in the papers. Representatives from all independent bodies such as SOS, Share LFC, the original Liverpool Supporters Club on Lower Breck Road and perhaps editors of the fanzines and independent website should make up the floor.

I have been reading all the threads lately but have decided holding my tongue was the wisest move. Having had time now to reflect on all I've read, I'm seriously wondering what fans want. Do we want foreign ownership ? It doesn't look like we do.

We've had fans as shareholders, but the decision was taken to sell out. We've had a Scouser (Steve Morgan) try and take control and most  ebsites cringed at the possibility of him taking us down the PLC route. Wouldn't SOS and SLFC do exactly the same? Who would fund the new stadium if we buy our club back? Who would finance Rafa's next £25-50 million tantrum in the next transfer window ?

None of us like what we're seeing under the current regime. But is there anyone who has all the answers? Do you honestly believe DIC will have the support of all the fans? Do you think we as fans, would be happy with another Abramovic who basically see his club as a "Boys Toy"?

I'm not clever enough business wise to make any judgements. And I remember my Grandfather's advice "keep quiet and let people think you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove it beyond doubt". My forte, if I have one is writing about The History of Liverpool Football Club and avoiding day to day issues. Where history teaches us what we think on the spur of the moment is replaced by more "common sense" decisions on later reflection. But as they say if there is one thing not common it's common sense.

Jumping on the SOS or the Share LFC bandwagon, when frankly you don't fully understand their agenda is to me foolhardy. I'll start listening to parties when they announce their financial structure for the next five years including payment of the new stadium. The next line I'm waiting to hear is, lets start a "Stay at Anfield" party i.e. avoiding the largest payment we have in our foreseeable future. Buying back the shares might put the club back in the hands of the fans, but who is going to stump up the new stadium cost and the transfer kitty for the next 5 years?

Before we jump out of the frying pan and into the fire I would hope fans who are business-minded have a long hard look at any future purchasers' financial manifesto, thus being 100% sure the next move is the right move. Otherwise what currently seems like a storm blowing through the hallowed halls may well turn into a force 9 tornado. And the words of the song will change to "At the end of the storm..... now, there will be a bigger one brewing". Remember this, a tug of war always ends up with one side having their faces in the mud.

If you must choose a side make your selection wisely otherwise you will end up with a muddy face. If like me you are not business minded enough to understand everything, my advice is to sit on the fence and just hope and pray for a successful outcome.

It's not embarrassing to abstain from making an ill-judged decision. My stance has been and always will be, I am a football fan who supports 11 players on the park. I don't make management decisions and I do not make decisions at board level.

As Shankly once said, "the Directors are only here to sign the cheques, I'm here to prepare the team for the next game and the fans are here to support the team".

Right now it appears we want to select the directors, the manager wants to take his ball home if he doesn't get his own way, and the directors want to drink in the bloody Sandon.

What a Cockeyed world we live in.

If you consider abstaining from voting cowardly, be ready to accept the responsibility of the decision you make.

The truth at the moment is as fans we're constantly being asked to choose sides. Even when we put aside the differences between owners and manager another crack appears. Gerrard's now not a happy bunny (again). And it appears after watching Rafa go 6 rounds with the owners, he wants to jump in the ring and take him to the distance. The hacks this morning are talking about The fans siding with Steven Gerrard over Rafa Benitez.

Well I'm sorry both parties now look like their emphasis is improving their own CVs rather than building something together. I've always hated the side of Gerrard we see every now and again: the "I'm the Billy Big Bollocks" me me me. And I'm not a big fan of Rafa when he does his "I'm taking my ball home if I cant get my own way".

As Big as Ron Yeats was and as hard as Tommy Smith was, could you see either of them trying a stunt like that with Shanks. Billy was the boss and no one ever questioned Shankly's command. I seem to remember Souness attempting the "I'm the Billy Big Bollocks" with Uncle Bob. And wasn't it Paul Ince who last tried to be "Gaffer" if only in name.

Great players come and go, but if I'm ever asked to vote my allegiance between a player and a manager, I'm sorry the player is on the bus out of town (or more likely in a bloody Ferrari that we've paid for).

Not content with watching our club tear itself into splinter groups, I've noticed recently than fan base doing exactly the same, SOS, Shares LFC, AFC Liverpool. What's next The Walton Breck Bankers?

The only way to get a say in matters concerning the club (and I'm not suggesting the club will listen) is to unite under a single banner, prepare an agenda for the possible meeting and stick to it. Don't let anyone digress into trivial matters just so you can come out of the meeting claiming to have scored a few points.

I know this piece will not be popular but I cannot believe I am the only fan that is totally confused about what's going on both on and off the park. Remember the old Anny Road chant "The Road End united will never be defeated"?

If the club are having difficulty 'Houlding' it all together, lets show them for Gods sake, that we will not be split into small factions. We should all sing from the same song sheet in the spirit of the Old Kop.

"The Kopites united, will never be defeated,
the Kopites united, will never be defeated"

© Wooltonian 2008

[lfctitch]

*As the fans irrupt in a standing ovation*

Good post. Right now though, Hicks has to go, far to much noise is the problem I have.

[Bosshog]

you talk sense my good man.......more of the same needed

[Pheel]

At last! sense, perspective. Very well said.

[nidgemo]

"my advise is to sit on the fence and just hope and pray for a successful out come.
It's not embarrassing to abstain from making an ill judged decision.
My stance has been and always will be, I am a football fan who supports 11 players on the park. I don't make management decisions and I do not make decisions at board level."



Good post Karl, as ever. Do you have an account for writing on the RAWK Blog? If not, do you want me to pop this on for you?
http://blog.redandwhitekop.com/

I now await an angry mob to spend the next 4 months cyber bullying you, like they do to 4pool and anyone else who tries to see both sides.

[Zenithez]

This part has to be repeated:

" My stance has been and always will be, I am a football fan who supports 11 players on the park. I don't make management decisions and I do not make decisions at board level.
As Shankly once said, "the Directors are only here to sign the cheques, I'm here to prepare the team for the next game and the fans are here to support the team"
Right now it appears we want to select the directors, the manager want's to take his ball home if he doesn't get his own way and the directors want to drink in the bloody Sandon.
What a Cockeyed world we live in"

A Fantastic post Mr Wooltonian, hopefully every media outlet, gets to read this.

[redannie]

Terrific post Wooltonian thank you for the reasoned argument.

It strikes me at the moment that we are increasingly imitating the headless chicken in our panic over the future. Rumour and innuendo on forum boards and in the media are being treated as fact so that as each new suggestion is made sides are taken

Who can honestly say, hand on heart,  that we plebs know exactly what is going on?

Divide and rule is an old trick played to the advantage of the aggressor. I cannot agree more with the sentiment that we present a united front when the time comes that we know exactly what is happening at our club, when we can present a cohesive, informed case

[freedom]

Well said..

[barnseysbarmyarmy]

There is indeed a contradiction in some people's attitudes concerning the ethos of Liverpool football club and the direction its to take from here on.
-Hicks and Gillet are merchant capitalists, but are DIC any different in their outlook, be it that they may have a more lucrative deal to offer in the short term?
-Too many OOTs, day-trippers and tourists, yet we must somehow compete with United and the like as a global brand. Support from the outside is a sign of success, not of decline.
-We either operate as a buisness and remain on par with the big boys in the next few years, or chose to adopt a more patient approach. A case of short term success vs. integrity and sustained growth.
-The local conections, history, and moral highground that we posses is our strength as a club. Its what makes Liverpool unique. It would be a shame to see this exploited and diluted into a marketable image, like United have done with certain things and events from their past.

In short, important decisions are to be made on the direction this football club is to take in the near future. It would be a shame if these decisions were to be made with out consulting the very element that IS the club: its supporters.

[dollface86]

Here here. Well-written, took the words right out of everybodies head and put keypad to interweb.

Nicely said, chap.

[hooded claw]

Do you have an account for writing on the RAWK Blog? If not, do you want me to pop this on for you?
http://blog.redandwhitekop.com/

You do, then? 

Got a link to anything you've posted? Never bother with it usually.

[KiNki]

   well said wooly. 

[Manila Vanilla]

Good post, Wooltonian!
It's become a case of "Don't know what I want but I know how to get it..."

We've been full of contradictions from day one.
We don't want an Abramovich-style sugar daddy. We just want someone who'll give indecent amounts of cash without asking questions.
We accept that any owner should make a profit. He just shouldn't take out more money than he puts in.
We support Rafa unconditionally - on condition that he improves things and the sooner the better.
We accept that we have to improve commercially but we don't want to pay more - or give privileges to someone else who does pay more.
We are praying for DIC to take over when we have no idea of how they would recoup a sum which would be bigger than G&H's outlay.
Our behaviour has become manic.

[WOOLTONIAN]

Do you have an account for writing on the RAWK Blog? If not, do you want me to pop this on for you?
http://blog.redandwhitekop.com/

How long have you known me mate ?
I'd agree with every word if I knew what you were talking about.
I thought my computer was a keyboard and a screen.
The box thats under my desk is just a box with pretty flashing lights.
I'll leave it to you what's best.

Steve Davis usually looks after the bits and edits for me.

[nidgemo]

You do, then? 

Got a link to anything you've posted? Never bother with it usually.

http://blog.redandwhitekop.com/2007/08/

Not written anything for a while. If you ain't got anything nice to say, don't say anything...

I think all the other writers are taking much the same view with the exception of hinesy, who's battling bravely (and producing good stuff) to keep it alive.

I auto synch the blog to my ipod by an RSS feed, so it's good to have if I fancy something to read while waiting about somewhere.

Must start writing some stuff again though!

[rocco]

Well written post and agree 100%  ,

 

[mercury]

Very wise

[SquirmyRooter]

Have to say I agree with alot of that, really don't see that DIC will be any different to Hicks, once Moores sold up that was it in my opinion. The clubs direction was set.

DIC will need to make exactly the same kind of commercial/profit motivated decisions that Hicks has to do, the only real difference is their access to financial backing, make no mistake though, every penny they invest they'll want back , with interest.

The fans buy out is a lovely idea but far too late, something like this should have been done when Moores was still around and the club was available much more cheaply, even then though, as you point out, the club would need financing for the stadium and player purchases etc.

We've realised Moores has let us lag behind commercially and yet we are reluctant change, we slated Chelsea and Abramovich but don't want an owner who borrows.

It's a confusing mess.

[nidgemo]

Here you go Karl...

http://blog.redandwhitekop.com/

You'll be appearing on NewsNow and other various news feed sites any minute now

Hopefully Steve doesn't mind me adding it.

[lfcdave]

Common sense...spot on!!

[Maggie May]

Well said Wooly.

I'm not signing up for anything until I've seen a lot more concrete evidence than has so far been presented.

I've not been impressed with the organisation of the fans buyout.  I don't know who are these highly skilled professionals they say have joined them or the level of their skills.  And I haven't heard any proposals about the future financial management of the club, funding for the stadium, and what financial input will be required of the stakeholders after the initial subs of 5 grand - and that's just off the top of my head at the moment.

There was a piece on here from what was posted as the SOS "Coco and the Silver Spoon" I think.  I thought it unfortunate and I wasn't impressed at all.  So I'm waiting to see how they develop also.

So I'm on the fence. 

[todda]

Well said Wooltonian, great post, fully agree with ya.

We don't want another Gerrard 'is he going is he staying bollox' this summer.  If he wants to go collecting title medals he'd better chose wisely.  He should ask his mate Michael Owen about deciding to leave the Might LFC

[xavidub]

You are dead right, but the reason most fans are jumping to conclusions about one party or another is fear and anxiety about the future of the club. Having followed 'pool for 36 years I can't remember another time when the future looked so bleak. Obviously, the SLFC bid is the romantic dream where the club is levered out of the hands of parasites but it leaves many questions unanswered about continued funding.

DIC, to me are not much different to G&H but at least they have the funds to deliver the stadium and a long-time red is leading their team. They, to me are probably the best of the realistic outcomes.

The Americans have had their chance, and muffed it. They were not transparent about their debt plans for the club and their integrity is in tatters.

The Manager has exacerbated the problems this season imo, through both continued non-performance in the League and his eagerness to blame everyone but himself for fighting to stay out of the UEFA cup with a squad that should be perfectly capable of contending for the Title. The Players, in my view, reflect the Manager. If he knows what he is doing, so do they. If he is ruthlessly focused, so are they. The reverse is also true.

We are caught in a perfect storm this season. Everyone, from the Board to the CEO to the Manager to the Players, has failed to honour the traditions of the club, has left their professionalism at home, has sought short-term advantage over long-term gain.

The reaction of Fans is one of bewilderment. We are the group to whom this means the most yet we are the group who have the least ability to influence events. If singing and chanting and waving banners counted for much the club would have no problems at all. But if we can't influence the Manager to stop picking Kewell I am doubtful of our ability to shape the thinking of distant billionaires.

Hopefully, the Board, the Manager and the Players will yet remember what they are being paid for. But I ain't holding my breath.   

[rafathegaffa]

Now on Newsnow.

Totally bringing it to the massive.

[Maggie May]

We don't want another Gerrard 'is he going is he staying bollox' this summer.  If he wants to go collecting title medals he'd better chose wisely.  He should ask his mate Michael Owen about deciding to leave the Might LFC

Don't get me started on Gerrard.  I wish he'd confine himself to kicking a ball about and shut the fuck up.

[Swoop]

Well said Wooly.

I'm not signing up for anything until I've seen a lot more concrete evidence than has so far been presented.

I've not been impressed with the organisation of the fans buyout.  I don't know who are these highly skilled professionals they say have joined them or the level of their skills.  And I haven't heard any proposals about the future financial management of the club, funding for the stadium, and what financial input will be required of the stakeholders after the initial subs of 5 grand - and that's just off the top of my head at the moment.

There was a piece on here from what was posted as the SOS "Coco and the Silver Spoon" I think.  I thought it unfortunate and I wasn't impressed at all.  So I'm waiting to see how they develop also.
So I'm on the fence. 

Mags, with you on that I thought it was very wrong to use the banner of SOS to start such a thread. 

[Maggie May]

Mags, with you on that I thought it was very wrong to use the banner of SOS to start such a thread. 

Thank you Swoop.  I had great hopes of the SOS when they originally published their statement, but that piece should never, in my view, have been posted as it appeared to be the "official" line of the SOS.  An official organisation simply just cannot say the vast majority of the things that were said in that post.  If the SOS did sanction it, then they've gone well down in my estimation (not that I expect that to make a huge difference to anyone).     If they didn't sanction it, then it I believe they should request the mods to delete it. 

[Bouncer]

>>>> Who would finance Rafa's next £25-50 million tantrum in the next transfer window ?

Eh?? tantrum whats that about then?

[nidgemo]

>>>> Who would finance Rafa's next £25-50 million tantrum in the next transfer window ?

Eh?? tantrum whats that about then?

Why, did you miss the last two?

[Bouncer]

Why, did you miss the last two?

Tantrum is a ridiculous word to use ... I keep forgetting this place is populated with UEFA qualified coaches, revisionists and people who claim their Grandad was Abraham Lincoln.

Im not turning this into a critique/debate on Rafa's purchases - hes bought some cracking players ... period.

Why, did you miss the last two?

[nidgemo]

Tantrum is a ridiculous word to use ... I keep forgetting this place is populated with UEFA qualified coaches, revisionists and people who claim their Grandad was Abraham Lincoln.

Im not turning this into a critique/debate on Rafa's purchases - hes bought some cracking players ... period.

No one is turning it into a critique of Rafas purchases, but it's pretty undeniable that he's thrown a wobbly just prior to the last two transfer windows, harming his relationship with his bosses, and, thereby, harming LFC.

[lionel_messias]

This part has to be repeated:

" My stance has been and always will be, I am a football fan who supports 11 players on the park. I don't make management decisions and I do not make decisions at board level.
As Shankly once said, "the Directors are only here to sign the cheques, I'm here to prepare the team for the next game and the fans are here to support the team"
Right now it appears we want to select the directors, the manager want's to take his ball home if he doesn't get his own way and the directors want to drink in the bloody Sandon.
What a Cockeyed world we live in"

A Fantastic post Mr Wooltonian, hopefully every media outlet, gets to read this.

Here, here, that is a brilliant observation and so true. How much bloody time do people spend (me aswell sometimes) going on about owners, finance, and the boardroom!!!!! I'm sick, sick sick of all this shite, I just want to support my team.

[HelterSkelter]

No one is turning it into a critique of Rafas purchases, but it's pretty undeniable that he's thrown a wobbly just prior to the last two transfer windows, harming his relationship with his bosses, and, thereby, harming LFC.

How does it harm LFC? Do you seriously feel he's throwing these tantrums for his own ego, or maybe he is fighting to get the resources that even clubs below us in the league now possess.
His tantrums to me seem more like letting the fans know that all is not well, and that promises aren't being kept. You may say its not the LFC way, but neither is having broke lying owners.

[casey]

Yes but he shouldn't have had to.

[ALPH1217]

The old codgers usually write the best stuff on here.

[rocco]

Why, did you miss the last two?

Thought he just flushed the yanks out..

[Robinred]

DIC, to me are not much different to G&H but at least they have the funds to deliver the stadium and a long-time red is leading their team. They, to me are probably the best of the realistic outcomes.

The Americans have had their chance, and muffed it. They were not transparent about their debt plans for the club and their integrity is in tatters.

We are caught in a perfect storm this season. Everyone, from the Board to the CEO to the Manager to the Players, has failed to honour the traditions of the club, has left their professionalism at home, has sought short-term advantage over long-term gain.

I like these three paragraphs; I think they sum up my thoughts. (I'm prepared to give Rafa far more benefit of doubt than you, so I don't agree with the whole piece).

I think the key word is 'realism'. DIC do offer a realistic way out of our current predicament.

In a perfect world we would own the club ourselves, but that's not remotely realistic - I think that much has been demonstrated this last month.

[Bouncer]

Thought he just flushed the yanks out..

Bang on ... "its not my ego its my responsibility"  - Think about that any Rafa baiters! That statement puts him up with Shanks in my very modest opinion. Has any other manager had to put up with so much shite in the history of the club ... I dont think so ...

[Maggie May]

Bang on ... "its not my ego its my responsibility"  - Think about that any Rafa baiters! That statement puts him up with Shanks in my very modest opinion. Has any other manager had to put up with so much shite in the history of the club ... I dont think so ...

Well said Bouncer.  When I think how Souness was protected when he should have been binned and the treatment and insults that have been loaded onto Rafa.  Its a disgrace.

[nidgemo]

How does it harm LFC?

Have you seen the state of the club recently?

Not Rafa's intention, not Rafa's fault, but Rafa speaking out angrily after the CL final led to bad feeling. That bad feeling got worse in early season, then Rafa went asking again (not incorrectly) and was told to "manage and coach", Rafa throws tantrum, owners panic and meet with Klinsmann, Hicks speaks out, Gillet and Foster disappear and so on.

Chain of events leading directly from Rafa's last two tantrums.

I'm not saying Rafa was wrong - I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, as the owners needed flushing out - simply pointing out cause and effect.