Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[Lfsea]

You have a date.



Theresa May to trigger article 50 on 29 March

UK’s permanent representative to the European Union has told the bloc to expect a letter on that date...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/20/theresa-may-to-trigger-article-50-on-29-march

Just to clarify, she's triggering the EU with a trigger about her intent to trigger Article 50?

[hide5seek]

I'd love to see the comments section on that article but unfortunately I refuse to use their website. Presumably John Major is now an enemy of the people, traitor ISIS sympathiser, etc.

Top voted comment backs him. Goes down hill after then though.

[hide5seek]

Just to clarify, she's triggering the EU with a trigger about her intent to trigger Article 50?

Next wednesday.

[TepidT2O]

Armageddon ....

[ShakaHislop]

Allegedly the devolved nations (the JMC stands for Joint Ministerial Committee) weren't informed of today's announcement before it was given to the media. "Precious Union"...

https://twitter.com/Feorlean/status/843798760320876544

[KillieRed]

What a shocker. That lot honestly see the other nations as dominions rather than partner nations.

Their arrogance and lack of self-awareness is going to be the end of their precious Empire Union.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

If France (for instance) said "Fuck the UK, we're not agreeing to anything." then would that be that?

[zero zero]

If France (for instance) said "Fuck the UK, we're not agreeing to anything." then would that be that?

Mais oui

[killer-heels]

Interesting poll putting Theresa May's approval at 48% in Scotland, ahead of Nicola Sturgeon. Ruth Davidson has the highest rating. Corbyn with the worst obviously.

[ShakaHislop]

The BBC have been warned about their coverage "undermining" Brexit by MPs.

Dear Lord Hall,

RE: BBC Coverage of Brexit

Brexit is the most important political challenge facing our country. Bearing in mind the new Royal Charter’s first ‘Public Purpose’ is to impartial news, as national broadcaster the BBC has a special obligation to ensure that it reflects available evidence and the balance of argument on the subject as fairly as possible.

We believe the BBC has fallen far short of this high standard. No doubt the BBC often nurtures first-class journalism but its position depends on trust. If politicians and the public don’t view it as an impartial broker, then the future of the BBC will be in doubt.

When Sir David Clementi, the incoming Chairman of the BBC, gave evidence to the Culture, Media, and Sport Select Committee in January, he insisted that the Corporation’s treatment of Brexit after the referendum had walked “a good path down the middle” – despite acknowledging that fewer viewers than ever now trust its coverage. We know many Leave-voting constituents have felt their views have been unfairly represented. This phenomenon is weakening the BBC's bond with the 52 per cent who voted Leave and all who wish to make a success of the decision made.

In particular, the Corporation’s focus on ‘regretful’ Leave voters, despite there being no polling shift towards Remain since the referendum, has led some to believe it is putting its preconceptions before the facts. Meanwhile, the posturing and private opinions of EU figures are too often presented as facts, without the vital context that they are talking tough ahead of the exit negotiations.

It particularly pains us to see how so much of the economic good news we’ve had since June has been skewed by BBC coverage which seems unable to break out of pre-referendum pessimism and accept new facts. Some of the signatories of this letter shared many of the concerns about the economic impact of Brexit, but all are delighted to find forecasts of immediate economic harm were at best misplaced. So-called ‘despite Brexit’ reporting may be expected of a partisan press, but licence fee-payers have the right to expect better.

The BBC has a much larger market share than any newspaper – it runs the most-used news website in the country, on top of its television and radio coverage. This, as well as viewers’ belief in its neutrality, means that BBC bias can have a substantial effect on national debate. BBC coverage also shapes international perceptions of the UK: we fear that, by misrepresenting our country either as xenophobic or regretful of the Leave vote, the BBC will undermine our efforts to carve out a new, global role for this country.

We are therefore asking you to take steps to correct these flaws in the BBC’s coverage of our EU exit at the earliest moment.

Yours etc.,

Julian Knight MP
Co-signed by

Conservative:

Nigel Adams MP, Richard Bacon MP, Steve Baker MP, Graham Brady MP, Julian Brazier MP, Henry Bellingham MP, Lady Victoria Borwick MP, Andrew Bridgen MP, Conor Burns MP, David Burrowes MP, Sir William Cash MP, James Cleverly MP, David T C Davies MP, Nadine Dorries MP, Steve Double MP, James Duddridge MP, Richard Drax MP, Iain Duncan Smith MP, Charlie Elphicke MP, Nigel Evans MP, Michael Fabricant MP, Suella Fernandes MP, Mark Francois MP, Marcus Fysh MP, Chris Green MP, Adam Holloway MP, Sir Gerald Howarth MP, Bernard Jenkin MP, Andrea Jenkyns MP, Daniel Kawczynski MP, Pauline Latham MP, Ian Liddell Grainger MP, Sir Edward Leigh MP, Jack Lopresti MP, Jonathan Lord MP, Tim Loughton MP, Craig Mackinlay MP, Kit Malthouse MP, Scott Mann MP, Jason McCartney MP, Karl McCartney MP, Nigel Mills MP, Anne Marie Morris MP, David Nuttall MP, Owen Paterson MP, Chris Philp MP, Will Quince MP, John Redwood MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, Paul Scully MP, Grant Shapps MP, Henry Smith MP, Royston Smith MP, Desmond Swayne MP, Michael Tomlinson MP, Anne-Marie Trevelyan MP, Andrew Turner MP, Martin Vickers MP, Theresa Villiers MP, Will Wragg MP, Lord Hamilton, Lord Callanan

Labour:

Kate Hoey MP, Kelvin Hopkins MP, Graham Stringer MP

DUP:

Nigel Dodds MP, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson MP, Gregory Campbell MP, Ian Paisley MP, Gavin Robinson MP, Jim Shannon MP, David Simpson MP, Sammy Wilson MP, Lord Maurice Morrow, Lord Wallace Browne

UKIP:

Douglas Carswell MP

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/20/bbc-risks-undermining-brexit-damaging-uk-pessimistic-skewed/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

[jillcwhomever]

Oh surprise surprise Brexit MP's going to war on the BBC once again. You just knew that was going to happen. 

This whole thing is just going to be a disaster, still can't quite credit that people were so stupid when they chose to leave the EU. When you look at the bunch of incompetents in that cabinet it makes you despair for the future. We have little opposition to fight for our rights and hold the imbeciles to account, and still most people seem to think it will all be fine. How have we ended up with a country so full of idiots? 

[CornerFlag]

I see no Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson there...

[Zeb]

Graham Stringer MP

Yeah. I can't vote for him again. He can sing this "who needs experts?" song in three years' time. Or will it be "it's your fault for not pretending hard enough it would be alright" by then?

[killer-heels]

What a group of MP's that is.

Kate Hoey once again proving what an idiot she is.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I see no Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson there...

or the likes of Gove, raab and davis

[jillcwhomever]

What a group of MP's that is.

Kate Hoey once again proving what an idiot she is.

I remember her from years ago the one Labour MP who voted to keep hunting legal, a real barnpot she is.

[HarryLabrador]

Oh surprise surprise Brexit MP's going to war on the BBC once again. You just knew that was going to happen. 

This whole thing is just going to be a disaster, still can't quite credit that people were so stupid when they chose to leave the EU. When you look at the bunch of incompetents in that cabinet it makes you despair for the future. We have little opposition to fight for our rights and hold the imbeciles to account, and still most people seem to think it will all be fine. How have we ended up with a country so full of idiots? 

Parliament seems to want a one-party state. So we are now walking slowly down the Trump path, Fake news is what they are really saying is what the BBC is dishing out. They can all piss off!

[classycarra]

That long list of MPs, plus Corbyn's whingebag conspiracy theorists leading Labour has me really concerned for the BBC's future. Consensus among the c*nts that everyone at the BBC is a big meanie and should be nicer to them

[Lfsea]

That list above totals 75 MPs, which if you give as a % of the lower house's membership is about 11.5%.

88.5% sounds an awful lot like a huge Commons approval rating for the Beeb.

I suspect also that a lot of people will be furious this list even exists because not being on it infers an opinion both on the Beeb and a stance on the EU. Given most of the honourable members have sublimated in the fight against Fürher May, one would wonder why that list isn't bigger.

[killer-heels]

That long list of MPs, plus Corbyn's whingebag conspiracy theorists leading Labour has me really concerned for the BBC's future. Consensus among the c*nts that everyone at the BBC is a big meanie and should be nicer to them

Loads of people hate the BBC. The rest of the media hate them, the left hate them, the right hate them and the centre hate them. They dont take away the platform from racists enough, they are too censory, they are too negative and they make shit shows. They have been a target for years.

I wouldnt worry about their future.

[KillieRed]

Pretty ironic, really, from that lot as the BBC political staff is riddled with Tory Establishment toadies. Perhaps Brexit isn`t wanted by the Establishment in addition to us that number in the tens of millions that voted against it?

Still, I should just keep my mouth shut, hum Rule Britannia through gritted teeth and let an incredibly small number of people steer us to obscurity and hardship. Anything else would be treason.

[west_london_red]

If France (for instance) said "Fuck the UK, we're not agreeing to anything." then would that be that?

Dare I say, it depends on whether the Germans agree or not.

[killer-heels]

Dare I say, it depends on whether the Germans agree or not.

Yep thats indeed the case. France will follow what Germany does. Italy is less certain and the Eastern Europeans have a completely different attitude.

I think one thing is clear however and that is that we will in no way get tarriff free access to the single market. It explains why the free trade mantra isnt as prevalent by the government and so many companies have been asking for it.

I think the City will survive but the biggest losers will be car manufacturers and farming. Sunderland wont have to worry about a rise in their few percent of immigrants because apart from being a shithole already it will be a shithole with zero jobs.

[Zeb]

New survey of Brexit opinions out. Guardian summarises: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/21/brexit-study-shows-we-want-free-trade-as-well-as-immigration-control

Few interesting points - not least the strong support for a 'soft' Brexit. But also how it's Conservative voters who seem to want to have their cake and eat it.

When those interviewed were asked which party they backed, Conservative and Labour voters showed relatively small differences over their support for EU measures in areas like trade, bank passporting and clean beaches.

However, Labour supporters were much less vehement in backing the elements associated with a hard Brexit, such as curbing freedom of movement and benefits for migrants, with the difference between the parties regularly above 20 percentage points.

While the Conservative voters’ views tied in with the government’s stated aim of both ending free movement of people and keeping close trade links, there was also a potential risk for the party, Curtice said.

“It also means that they are also the group that are most likely to be disappointed if they were to come to the conclusion that the government has failed to achieve that objective. Theresa May could be faced with political difficulties at home if she struggles to achieve her key objectives in Brussels.”

[ShakaHislop]

At least the big parties in the country are reflecting the public in acting like deluded, arrogant twats.

How many times do the EU have to say it, we won't be getting what many would consider a "better" deal. We really do deserve the other member states wiping the floor with us in the imminent negotiations.

[west_london_red]

Yep thats indeed the case. France will follow what Germany does. Italy is less certain and the Eastern Europeans have a completely different attitude.

I think one thing is clear however and that is that we will in no way get tarriff free access to the single market. It explains why the free trade mantra isnt as prevalent by the government and so many companies have been asking for it.

I think the City will survive but the biggest losers will be car manufacturers and farming. Sunderland wont have to worry about a rise in their few percent of immigrants because apart from being a shithole already it will be a shithole with zero jobs.

I actually think it will be the other way round, banking will take a hit as we are a huge net exporter so the EU has little to gain from giving us a good deal, while the automotive industry will be ok as we import so many cars from the EU it will be in their interests to give us a good deal there. Plus, free trade deals quite often exclude services such as banking and generals focus on physical goods.

[zero zero]

I actually think it will be the other way round, banking will take a hit as we are a huge net exporter so the EU has little to gain from giving us a good deal, while the automotive industry will be ok as we import so many cars from the EU it will be in their interests to give us a good deal there. Plus, free trade deals quite often exclude services such as banking and generals focus on physical goods.

We're not going to stop wanting to buy Mercs, BMWs, Audis or VWs, etc. It's not like we have a ton of home grown alternatives to turn to.

[classycarra]

I actually think it will be the other way round, banking will take a hit as we are a huge net exporter so the EU has little to gain from giving us a good deal, while the automotive industry will be ok as we import so many cars from the EU it will be in their interests to give us a good deal there. Plus, free trade deals quite often exclude services such as banking and generals focus on physical goods.

Inclined to agree with your point around banking in the UK taking a hit.

I think with the banking sector a more international workforce, and generally (for obvious reasons) a more mobile/agile sector with regards to relocating to mainland Europe, I really can't see them hanging around in London when Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin are all viable alternatives.

I don't imagine they'd view the still pending uncertainty around basics like passporting/single market access as a positive in London's favour, and certainly aren't likely to stay out of sentimental reasons.

[killer-heels]

I actually think it will be the other way round, banking will take a hit as we are a huge net exporter so the EU has little to gain from giving us a good deal, while the automotive industry will be ok as we import so many cars from the EU it will be in their interests to give us a good deal there. Plus, free trade deals quite often exclude services such as banking and generals focus on physical goods.

So the EU give us an auto industry special deal where we dont incur export tarriffs on British made items or customs checks?

[killer-heels]

We're not going to stop wanting to buy Mercs, BMWs, Audis or VWs, etc. It's not like we have a ton of home grown alternatives to turn to.

Its not about what we buy, its the cost of making stuff here (due to the various custom charges we will face being out the customs union) and the cost of exporting these cars to the EU. So the likes of Nissan, Land Rover, Mini's etc.

[killer-heels]

Inclined to agree with your point around banking in the UK taking a hit.

I think with the banking sector a more international workforce, and generally (for obvious reasons) a more mobile/agile sector with regards to relocating to mainland Europe, I really can't see them hanging around in London when Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin are all viable alternatives.

I don't imagine they'd view the still pending uncertainty around basics like passporting/single market access as a positive in London's favour, and certainly aren't likely to stay out of sentimental reasons.

There are massive implications on the Euro if the EU just aim to do a short term destruction job on the City. Maybe long term but all the wisdom has suggested all that work could flock to New York, not Europe.

[oldfordie]

I actually think it will be the other way round, banking will take a hit as we are a huge net exporter so the EU has little to gain from giving us a good deal, while the automotive industry will be ok as we import so many cars from the EU it will be in their interests to give us a good deal there. Plus, free trade deals quite often exclude services such as banking and generals focus on physical goods.

It may be in the interests of the EU to give us a good trade deal on cars but the question is what are we prepared to give to get this great deal.
The Major car companys are putting massive pressure on the government to get a good deal. 800.000+jobs depend on us getting a good deal,in other words, the EU have got our government by the b.... and it's not in their interests to throw this advantage away.
The problem over the last few months is the government have been dressing up our demands as special deals covering 60 odd areas while the EU keep telling us, you still want your cake and eat it. no chance.

[west_london_red]

It may be in the interests of the EU to give us a good trade deal on cars but the question is what are we prepared to give to get this great deal.
The Major car companys are putting massive pressure on the government to get a good deal. 800.000+jobs depend on us getting a good deal,in other words, the EU have got our government by the b.... and it's not in their interests to throw this advantage away.
The problem over the last few months is the government have been dressing up our demands as special deals covering 60 odd areas while the EU keep telling us, you still want your cake and eat it. no chance.

I don't want to sound too optimistic but we are giving the EU something, we are buying their cars. From the EU's point of view it makes sense to allow trade where they have a trading advantage, the industries where the UK has an advantage, that's where the UK is really going to have its work cut out.

[oldfordie]

I don't want to sound too optimistic but we are giving the EU something, we are buying their cars. From the EU's point of view it makes sense to allow trade where they have a trading advantage, the industries where the UK has an advantage, that's where the UK is really going to have its work cut out.

It doesn't make sense,every country in Europe could make the same argument. lets leave the EU and the EU will have no choice but to give us a great deal. pretty soon theres no EU left.
Over the last 7 months the EU have said they have no wish to punish the UK. the EU have changed the rhetoric over the last few days. they are now saying they are willing to punish the UK to keep the EU stronger.
Theres a lot of pent up anger in the EU right now, they have stood by quietly over the last 7 months listening to our MPs talk s..., they will reply to the triggering of art 50 on the 29th April.
They will leave us in no doubt where we stand. who the hell do you think you are UK. start talking concessions instead of demands.

[reniformis]

The problem is that we don't make much any more. No-one wants to work down a mine or in a foundry or plastics factory, let the Chinese and East Europeans do that for 2 quid an hour. We'll have the jobs in offices and research and shit. Except it never came. It's all very well saying to the auto/aerospace industry we'll just bring the supply chains here, where's the raw materials? They're still going to have to import, we're still fucked. To be OK, we'd need the UK govt to say we're leaving the EU (under a hard Brexit?) but not until we're pretty much self-sufficient. That needs massive borrowing and state investment and decades of foresight, things the Tories aren't exactly renowned for. I really can't see how it won't be an economic disaster.

[oldfordie]

The problem is that we don't make much any more. No-one wants to work down a mine or in a foundry or plastics factory, let the Chinese and East Europeans do that for 2 quid an hour. We'll have the jobs in offices and research and shit. Except it never came. It's all very well saying to the auto/aerospace industry we'll just bring the supply chains here, where's the raw materials? They're still going to have to import, we're still fucked. To be OK, we'd need the UK govt to say we're leaving the EU (under a hard Brexit?) but not until we're pretty much self-sufficient. That needs massive borrowing and state investment and decades of foresight, things the Tories aren't exactly renowned for. I really can't see how it won't be an economic disaster.

Yeah, the Problem is many of the major companys in this country are owned by other countrys,
They didn't invest in the UK when they came here, they invested in gaining access to the EU single market.
They wont react on anger.
If they can make bigger profits moving production to other EU countrys then they will do just that.
The majority will demand efficiencies from their workforce. wage cuts and job cuts so they can remain competitive.
 Lets assume some companys do profit from Brexit, I wonder how many will tell their workforce theyve had a smashing year lads heres a big rise?
I think there will also be companys who will take advantage of Brexit to get a cheaper workforce etc.

[west_london_red]

It doesn't make sense,every country in Europe could make the same argument. lets leave the EU and the EU will have no choice but to give us a great deal. pretty soon theres no EU left.
Over the last 7 months the EU have said they have no wish to punish the UK. the EU have changed the rhetoric over the last few days. they are now saying they are willing to punish the UK to keep the EU stronger.
Theres a lot of pent up anger in the EU right now, they have stood by quietly over the last 7 months listening to our MPs talk s..., they will reply to the triggering of art 50 on the 29th April.
They will leave us in no doubt where we stand. who the hell do you think you are UK. start talking concessions instead of demands.

It's not a great deal for the UK though. The EUs trade surplus with the UK grows at the UKs expense.

[oldfordie]

It's not a great deal for the UK though. The EUs trade surplus with the UK grows at the UKs expense.

This is a political settlement as well as a economic deal. this is about the big picture for the EU.
They may well loose out but all they've heard from our MPs is the EU aren't going to charge tarrifs on our French nickers otherwise we will charge tarrifs on their Gateaux.
The phoney war ends on the 29th March. I honestly have no idea whats going to happen.
I stopped trying to use common sense and logic to work out the Torys plan months ago.
Everything tells me our Government will sell a bad deal as a major victory but that would mean we couldn't negotiate our own deals around the world. then again maybe the priority is getting rid of EU regulations rather than deals. the only certainty is theres going to be a lot of angry leave supporters no matter what happens.

[Zeb]

My expectation is for them to blame the EU for walking away. They'll head to the table with impossible demands and then accuse the EU of intransigence. I'm really not hopeful at all. There are absolutely no good signs coming out of anything the government is saying. It's so bad Major is out shouting about it.

I want to be wrong but the Tory party is being led on this by the likes of IDS, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove, Liam Fox and Rees-Mogg. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Red-Soldier]

My expectation is for them to blame the EU for walking away. They'll head to the table with impossible demands and then accuse the EU of intransigence. I'm really not hopeful at all. There are absolutely no good signs coming out of anything the government is saying. It's so bad Major is out shouting about it.

I want to be wrong but the Tory party is being led on this by the likes of IDS, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove, Liam Fox and Rees-Mogg. Garbage in, garbage out.

That's exactly what I think will happen too. 

You'll have all the rags printing rubbish about the EU being unfair etc etc, all the Brexiteers singing Rule Britannia and giving it the Moysey fist pump against Fulham!