Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[zebenzui]

Sturgeon lying? Sure, the IndyRef was in her words a "once in a generation decision", now a couple years later she's doing anything she can to push for another one. Within 24 hours of the announcement she's already willing to backtrack on EU Membership if it'll get her the result she wants. It's took one day for backtracking on the apparent cause for a second referendum to begin, what else will follow in the coming months?

That one's been countered already. Unless you have reason (and evidence) to believe that she did not see the first referendum as an unique, and quite probably singular, chance of acquiring independence at the time. She was not to know what manner of suicide England and Wales would commit, on behalf of all the constituent parts of the UK, and (critically) contrary to Scotland's wishes.

Burden of proof? Fine, 1 in 7 Scots were afraid to tell people that they voted to remain in the UK.

You might have to try a little harder with this burden of proof malarkey.

[Zeb]

Davis has held this view for ages and was arguing those points in empty, end of day commons debates. Again i am no fan of his but he wont be polishing a turd for May, unlike many of the other extreme Brexiteers and Boris/Gove.

Oh for sure I know you're not. And, yeah, he has been beating the same drum for years. Just wonder at him ignoring the horrific projections and pressing on regardless. I'd have much more respect for him if he said something like, "yes, this is the price to be paid" and then construct an argument out of that. That he doesn't, to me, undermines the whole persona he likes to try and project. I'm still pissy about him forcing a by-election in his safe seat to grandstand to be honest.

[Redman0151]

That one's been countered already. Unless you have reason (and evidence) to believe that she did not see the first referendum as an unique, and quite probably singular, chance of acquiring independence at the time. She was not to know what manner of suicide England and Wales would commit, on behalf of all the constituent parts of the UK, and (critically) contrary to Scotland's wishes.

You might have to try a little harder with this burden of proof malarkey.

So don't make statements like "once in a generation" when a decision you don't like means you can try to leave again a couple years later. Especially when you're going to start backtracking on that same decision less than 24 hours after the announcement.

-Scotland votes to remain
"It's a once in a generation decision!"
-Britain votes to leave the EU
"Ok we need another referendum! Twice in a generation decision! Scotland wants to remain in the EU"
-Polls show she may lose the referendum if she puts Scotland right back into the EU
"umm.. well... Maybe we won't join the EU right away, just EFTA, let's see how it goes!"

The whole thing is fundamentally contradictory already, the cause of a 2nd referendum is leaving the EU, yet already they're ready to backtrack on EU membership. It won't get any better, it'll be more vague promises like last time, whilst sensible Scottish politicians like Gordon Brown realise that they have no real plan and the UK is stronger together.

Similar to Brexit it's a bunch of fumbling around, bold claims, catchy slogans and no real plan. I wonder if there's an over/under on when the BBC will start getting called "Fake News", the Yes voters were pulling Trump's shtick of trying to undermine and dismiss the media long before he even got going. Some Yes campaigners are already calling for protests outside the BBC for some strange reason.

[oldfordie]

Scottish Independence is the best defence to a hard brexit. People in England looking to stay in the EU and against Brexit should be for it.

The last year has been like a runaway train, we certainly need something to bring people to their senses, if the threat of the UK splitting up + the Torys handling of Brexit is not enough then I dont know what is.

[thejbs]

Dismissing Brexit as merely 'a decision you don't like' is preposterous.  Especially when 'expulsion from the EU' was a threat that was levied at those seeking independence the last time around:

Better Together  ✔@UK_Together
What is process for removing our EU citizenship? Voting yes. #scotdecides
9:21 PM - 2 Sep 2014

Among other threats better together made:

Yes vote would lead to a loss of subsidies for renewables.  Since then, the Tories have slashed those subsidies.
Yes vote would threaten the climate change project at Peterhead.  Since then the Tories withdrew the 1bn support fund that it was vying for and the project collapsed.
Yes vote would threaten pensions. Since then, pension reforms are reducing payments and increasing length of working life.
Yes vote would mean HMRC jobs in Scotland would go.  Since then, HMRC have closed their offices, risking 2500 jobs in Scotland.
Yes vote would mean manned border patrols and roadblocks. Since then, Tories have insisted that Brexit will not mean a hard border between NI and Ireland.

Added to this, Cameron's EVEL plan, despite encouraging Scotland to 'lead the UK'; the increasing appetite among the Tories to axe Barnett; and despite a promise of 'extensive new powers' the Scotland bill ended up being, well, a bit shite for Scotland.
 

[Dr. Beaker]

One Bullingdon pissing contest, and the whole country is going down the shitter. Cameron should be hanging upside down from the nearest lamppost the fucking shiny bomb-headed ringpiece. He must go down as the shitest PM of all time. Our 'ruling class' is a fucking freak show that seems to have reached the high water mark in decadence.

Fucking pissed off of Wimbledon.

Sorry. Carry on.

[Elmo!]

Burden of proof? Fine, 1 in 7 Scots were afraid to tell people that they voted to remain in the UK.

Sturgeon lying? Sure, the IndyRef was in her words a "once in a generation decision", now a couple years later she's doing anything she can to push for another one. Within 24 hours of the announcement she's already willing to backtrack on EU Membership if it'll get her the result she wants. It's took one day for backtracking on the apparent cause for a second referendum to begin, what else will follow in the coming months?

As I said, every issue except for Scottish Independence is secondary to her, it's not about the EU, it's about splitting up the UK by any means necessary. Scotland losing jobs or it's economy shrinking? As long as she gets her independence result that's irrelevant.

I honestly can't believe people are still clinging to this once in a generation argument...... 

1) Find me a quote from Sturgeon promising she will nott hold a referendum for a generation. All she has said is that it is a once in a generation opportunity. Ranieri probably told his players it was a once in a generation opportunity to win the league last season - doesn't mean they can't try and win it again this season (though it seems they haven't....)

2) Do you think the SNP should stick to and try to implement their manifesto after winning the election?

3) Sturgeon hasn't even made any announcement about EFTA and you're going on about her lying about it based on a couple of reports saying she is considering it....

Incidentally on the Anti-English question, the video linked below has been doing the rounds in Scotland in the last 24 hours. The full video has been removed from Youtube on hate speech grounds. Now this is an extreme example, but when you spend a lot of time like myself reading online like I do, you come across this attitude quite a lot. Can you see why it is frustrating for the whole Yes campaign is accused of being anti-English? I don't watch the video below and decide that all English people, or the No campaign is anti-Scots.

https://twitter.com/angrysalmond/status/842023902834524160

On the 1 in 7 thing, you do realise you've just answered a question about the Yes campaign being anti-English, with a survey result about Scots?

I'd like to the actual poll - I think I've read it before but would be interested to read the actual results and exact question.

[KillieRed]

Some people are clinging to the "Once in a Generation" thing because they are still bitter that the SNP lost them the UK election  . Those people would be much better to go down their path, go to their neighbour and knock their door and ask them if they voted Tory. If they get an honest answer they will find that it is ten times more likely that their neighbour voted Tory than someone in Scotland did. But, hey, it`s good to blame foreigners in the current climate.

The truth is: Right or Wrong, the perception is that the Labour Party in Scotland moved to the right of the SNP and that their policies were less attractive to people here, rather than them being gung-ho Unionists (though I accept that that probably lost them votes too). Scotland did not abandon Labour, Labour abandoned the Scots with their rUK vote chasing.

I`ve said before on here, I`m not a tartan and bagpipes nationalist, my whole reason for wanting Scottish Independence is that it will be an escape hatch from a UK that seems to be trapped in Establishment right-wing hegemony that is only getting tighter and tighter control. That`s not acceptable to me.

After Independence there will be new elections for the Scottish Parliament and the SNP will either thrive if they give people the policies they want, or wither if they do not. To me these are left-wing policies. Scottish Labour may very well emerge as the most popular party after independence, but they won`t if they are perceived to be handcuffed to a party that is pandering to middle England.

[thejbs]

There's a devilish part of me that is hoping for an independent Scotland just so it can be on record that the DUP (who vehemently campaigned for brexit) helped break up the union and quite possibly expedited a United Ireland. That's just too delicious an irony to ignore.

[Danny Boys Dad]

I am going to say it. I dont mind David Davis. He has initially set out an idea of what he wanted prior to the referendum but since then he hasnt tried to sugar coat anything.

You mean David Davis, MP for Tate & Lyle?

[west_london_red]

Scottish Independence is the best defence to a hard brexit. People in England looking to stay in the EU and against Brexit should be for it.

No, the threat of Scottish Independence is the best defence to a hard brexit. Them actually leaving the UK may well result in a harder brexit as that's another dissenting voice out of the picture.

[zebenzui]

I'll ask you again, more bluntly this time. Does the personal opinion of Sturgeon override the democratic voice of those Scots who elected the SNP on the platform of seeking independence.

[SP]

I'll ask you again, more bluntly this time. Does the personal opinion of Sturgeon override the democratic voice of those Scots who elected the SNP on the platform of seeking independence.

SNP Manifesto 2016:

Right to a Referendum
We believe that independence offers the best future
for Scotland. However, Scotland will only become
independent when a majority of people in Scotland
choose that future in a democratic referendum – it will
not happen just because the SNP wants it to, or because
there is an SNP government.
At the same time if there is a clear demand for a
referendum no politician has the right to stand in the way
of the people of Scotland to choose their own future.
We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the
right to hold another referendum if there is clear and
sustained evidence that independence has become the
preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people
– or if there is a significant and material change in the
circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland
being taken out of the EU against our will.
In the next parliament, we will work hard to persuade
a majority of the Scottish people that being an
independent country is the best option for our country.
We will listen to the concerns of people who voted No in
2014 and seek to address them. The case we make will
be relevant to the complex world we live in today.

[Dr. Beaker]

There's a devilish part of me that is hoping for an independent Scotland just so it can be on record that the DUP (who vehemently campaigned for brexit) helped break up the union and quite possibly expedited a United Ireland. That's just too delicious an irony to ignore.

If Steve Bell could encapsulate that one I think I'd have it framed.

[oldfordie]

The Major car companys are piling more +more pressure on the Torys not to leave the single market.

Toyota to invest £240m in UK plant at Burnaston

Toyota is to invest £240m in upgrading its UK factory that makes the Auris and Avensis models.
The Japanese carmaker's investment in the Burnaston plant near Derby will allow production of vehicles using its new global manufacturing system.
The factory employs about 2,500 people, while another 590 work at Toyota's engine plant at Deeside, North Wales.
Burnaston made about 180,000 vehicles last year, most of which are exported to Europe and other markets.
Johan van Zyl, chief executive of Toyota Motor Europe, said the investment showed that the company was doing all it could to make Burnaston more competitive.

However, he warned: "Continued tariff-and-barrier free market access between the UK and Europe that is predictable and uncomplicated will be vital for future success."
'Faith in employees'

Industry trade body the SMMT said in January that uncertainty around Brexit and the UK's future trading arrangements had hit investment in the car sector.
Investment commitments in the UK automotive sector last year totalled £1.66bn, down from £2.5bn in 2015.
Business Secretary Greg Clark said Toyota's investment "underlines the company's faith in its employees and will help ensure the plant is well positioned for future Toyota models to be made in the UK".
The government is providing £21.3m in funding for training, research and development, and improving the Burnaston plant's environmental performance.
Last year, rival carmaker Nissan said it would build both the new Qashqai and the X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland plant following government "support and assurances".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39289269

[B0151?]

May more than within her rights to deny a re-run so close after the last one. When Scotland voted to agree to stay in the UK, they agreed something like this was a possibility. Cameron was promising an EU referendum before the independence referendum.

SNP can't have this argument that there has been a sudden change when it existed as a possibility at the time of referendum. It's on them and the 'yes' side if they never made that clear to anyone who was voting 'no'.

[zebenzui]

May more than within her rights to deny a re-run so close after the last one. When Scotland voted to agree to stay in the UK, they agreed something like this was a possibility. Cameron was promising an EU referendum before the independence referendum.

SNP can't have this argument that there has been a sudden change when it existed as a possibility at the time of referendum. It's on them and the 'yes' side if they never made that clear to anyone who was voting 'no'.

Strange notion of democracy you have - 'people cannot change their minds if they were initially successfully deceived'.

[TheShanklyGates]

Strange notion of democracy you have - 'people cannot change their minds if they were initially successfully deceived'.

That's basically the crutch of the Brexit argument these days.

[B0151?]

Strange notion of democracy you have - 'people cannot change their minds if they were initially successfully deceived'.

It was the 'yes' sides job to make sure the people voting in what was such a historic referendum were aware of what being part of the UK means (and like I say, EU referendum was on the table at the time, as much as Tory and Brexit victory surprised us). This 'strange notion of democracy' is what Scotland were agreeing to when they voted against independence.

SNP are within their rights to push for another referendum but I think coming so soon after the last one then May is within her rights to deny it.

[SP]

Strange notion of democracy you have - 'people cannot change their minds if they were initially successfully deceived'.

Of course there is the simple administrative answer. The country does not have enough constitutional lawyers and negotiators to cope with Brexit. It is completely impractical to expect the country to be able to negotiate Scottish Independence as well at the same time. Scotland can have its vote when the administrative challenges of Brexit have been met. Scotland has just had a vote, if there are any lessons to learn from the Brexit referendum, it is that there must be the resources and plan in place to implement both potential results.

[ShakaHislop]

There's a new "Plan for Britain" website set up by the government regarding Brexit.

This is what greeted some people who tried to access it earlier.

[Zeb]

Tarzan always did have a way with words.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The last year has been like a runaway train, we certainly need something to bring people to their senses, if the threat of the UK splitting up + the Torys handling of Brexit is not enough then I dont know what is.

The UK public is fucking thick mate

[zebenzui]

Of course there is the simple administrative answer. The country does not have enough constitutional lawyers and negotiators to cope with Brexit. It is completely impractical to expect the country to be able to negotiate Scottish Independence as well at the same time. Scotland can have its vote when the administrative challenges of Brexit have been met. Scotland has just had a vote, if there are any lessons to learn from the Brexit referendum, it is that there must be the resources and plan in place to implement both potential results.

I can accept that side of the argument. It holds plenty of practical sense. But it's hard to see anything the tories choose to do that's not predicated on the pursuit political gain or ideological instincts.

It's certinaly a more compelling argument though, than wilfully misinterpreting something Salmond and Sturgeon said.

[oldfordie]

The UK public is fucking thick mate

James Obrien summed it up perfectly again.
Many of these people didn't use evidence and logic when they decided to support leave so you wont convince them their wrong with evidence and logic now.

[jepovic]

if there are any lessons to learn from the Brexit referendum, it is that there must be the resources and plan in place to implement both potential results.

Another lesson learned, more important imo, is that the options should be crystal clear for the voters. The previous independence referendum should have been held after the brexit referendum, not before. Now, it would be silly to have another vote when nobody knows what kind of relationship UK and EU will have, or what kind of relationship Scotland and EU could have.

But that's rational thinking, how 20th century of me. I don't think Sturgeon even expects another referendum, but demanding it makes great headlines.

[ShakaHislop]

"Last summer's referendum was not just a vote to leave the EU, it was an instruction to change the way our whole country works, and the people for whom it works forever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqwvAuBz_hQ

I suppose that was a rather long statement to fit on the ballot paper.

[cdav]

http://littleatoms.com/beware-prolier-thou-style

Beware the Prolier-than-thou style

Politicians and pundits alike revel in portraying prejudice and ignorance as essentially working-class values

I thought this was a good article that could equally apply to Brexit or Trump. I still don't understand how a Frottage or a Trump can be considered to have the interests of the poor working class at heart?

[thejbs]

May more than within her rights to deny a re-run so close after the last one. When Scotland voted to agree to stay in the UK, they agreed something like this was a possibility. Cameron was promising an EU referendum before the independence referendum.

SNP can't have this argument that there has been a sudden change when it existed as a possibility at the time of referendum. It's on them and the 'yes' side if they never made that clear to anyone who was voting 'no'.

This is negated by the SNP's last manifesto which gives them a clear mandate to call for another indyref. 

"We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people - or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will"

That is the promise they were elected on.  The circumstances have changed.  Scotland did vote to remain, ergo it is being removed from the UK against it's will.

So not only do the SNP have a right to call another indyref, it could be argued that if they don't, they're breaking a fundamental promise they made to those who voted for them.

[B0151?]

This is negated by the SNP's last manifesto which gives them a clear mandate to call for another indyref. 

That is the promise they were elected on.  The circumstances have changed.  Scotland did vote to remain, ergo it is being removed from the UK against it's will.

So not only do the SNP have a right to call another indyref, it could be argued that if they don't, they're breaking a fundamental promise they made to those who voted for them.

Yeah, like I said in next post, SNP have right to call for one, for sure.

For me though, it would be more of a reason people should have voted 'yes' in the last referendum as opposed to providing the urgency of an immediate new one. I don't think May is committing a great undemocratic injustice by not acquiescing to that push. Of course SNP would argue this also.

[Zeb]

John Major in the Mail on Sunday (which supported Remain). Quoting in full because one hit to that website to get this is one hit too many. The tl:dr of his message to the government is "Are you all fucking mad?".

The nation has voted to leave the EU. The Government has decided to leave the Single Market. It is likely that Article 50, which begins this process, will be implemented this month.

But the terms upon which we leave will depend upon the outcome of negotiations yet to begin. It is vital that these negotiations focus not only on our corporate and economic interests, but also on the individual wellbeing of millions of British people. We all need to know what is happening and why – and what it will mean.

Foreign investors such as Nissan, Toyota and Honda most likely invested in the UK believing that they would enjoy unrestricted access to the full European market. They – and their British workforce – will be anxiously awaiting the results of trade negotiations.

As will the agricultural sector, where incomes will be halved without European subsidies unless they are replicated by the taxpayer or higher farm prices – the latter of which would not only be very unpopular with consumers but very unlikely. I say ‘unlikely’ because, as we seek new free trade deals with the US, Australia and New Zealand, it would be astonishing if they did not demand greater access to our domestic market – and, in so doing, hold down the income of farmers.

Since these and so many other decisions will affect every single British citizen, I should like to appeal again for a more considered and thoughtful debate on the issues that will determine our future.

It is time to move on from soundbites to sound policy.

The debate in the referendum short-changed the public on facts: everyone – politicians, press and public – must try to make good that deficit.

People need and deserve information they can rely on – not disinformation deployed as a seductive persuader. George Orwell once wrote: ‘In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.’

I DO NOT suggest deceit in the European debate has been universal but a great deal of fiction has been woven into the facts by people who should be serving both the public and the Prime Minister better.

So, if the unvarnished truth is a revolution, then it is well worth encouraging.

The 48 per cent who voted Remain have as big a stake in our future as the 52 per cent who voted Leave: they, and especially parliamentarians, have a right – indeed a duty – to express their views. No one can, or should, be silenced.

That being so, it is time for the minority of ‘Ultra Brexiteers’ – those who believe in a complete break from Europe – to stop shouting down anyone with an opposing view. It is not only unattractive but profoundly undemocratic and totally un-British. What is most striking is that, amid all the noise they make, they comprehensively fail to address any argument put to them.

Instead, they launch vitriolic and personal attacks on the Governor of the Bank of England, judges, civil servants, foreign leaders, politicians and other public figures. In doing so, they demean both themselves and their cause. These ‘Ultras’ are terrified that their triumph in taking us out of Europe will be snatched away.

But if that is their fear, why do they not defend their position with logic and passion, with thoughtful, cogent argument, instead of the low-grade personal abuse that has been their standard response so far?

If the rancour merely came from rabble elements, or extreme minorities, it could be ignored. But when it comes from politicians, including those from within the governing party, it is time to confront it. Other parliamentary Brexiteers, from all parties, are more reasoned, more civil, and more democratic. They should disown their rancorous colleagues. There are testing times to come. What we need is a serious discussion.

Ahead of the Government lie some of the most complex and contentious decisions facing any peacetime administration.

And the only certainty before us is that the future will be very different from anything we have known in the past. Although the UK seems set to leave the Single Market – for reasons that baffle our friends around the world and dismay most foreign investors in our country – we still wish to trade with our neighbours in Europe. They are, after all, nearly one half of our total trade.

The Government will try to negotiate a trading arrangement that, inevitably, will be less advantageous and more cumbersome for our exporters than the Single Market.

But they may fail. The outcome we seek may be unattainable, the terms unacceptable.

In such circumstances, the ‘Ultras’ have a solution: it is that we should break wholly away from the EU, and trade with our European neighbours under what are known as WTO (World Trade Organisation) rules.

It all sounds so simple – but emphatically is not. And, compared to our present position, it is disadvantageous in every way. It would mean that 90 per cent of our exports to the EU would become more expensive to buy and, therefore, less competitive. They would face tariffs that would add about £6 billion to their costs – and the UK would lose sales.

Our dairy exports could face tariffs of 36 per cent, thus increasing their price by more than a third.

Our automotive industry, currently so successful, could face a tariff of ten per cent on the final price, which would seriously hit the workforce and exports.

But that’s not all. Imported components – which are standard fittings in all our cars, lorries and trucks – would face further tariffs and, to add complexity to cost for our exporters, they would need to produce certificates of origin for all non-British fittings and components. At present, the global success of our manufacturing industry is greatly enhanced by the free-flow of trade within Europe. Under WTO rules, that will end.
Nor is it just our agriculture and automotive industries that will be made less competitive: clothing, footwear, drinks, plastics, machinery – every sector of our successful exports will be affected. The WTO option is not a panacea – it is a disaster-in-waiting for British exports and the British economy.

You will be told this is fear-mongering. It is not. It is fact. You will also be told – indeed, have already been told by senior Ministers – that it is ‘perfectly OK’ to fall back on WTO terms.

But it is worth reflecting that those who make such reassuring noises include the very same people who urged the UK to vote Leave on the basis that ‘we will be able to give an extra £350 million a week to the NHS’; that ‘nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market’; and that ‘there is no prospect of a second Scottish referendum’.

We already know that all three of the above – and much else – were fake facts and bogus promises.

It was dishonest and wrong to promise the British people an easy, favourable deal with the EU, wrong to promise swift new trade deals, and wrong to state that the Irish peace process would not be unsettled by Brexit.

Two weeks ago I tried to encourage a more serious tone of debate. I posed some serious questions. As yet, I am still awaiting serious answers – or, indeed, any answers at all.

The British people deserve the truth. So, yet again, I ask for the fiction to be ditched, and the facts to be faced.

There are many millions of people across the UK who have been left dismayed and despairing over the glib rhetoric that has prevailed over serious argument.

They need to be reassured the decision made in last year’s referendum was the right one – for them, their families and for future generations.
I expect the Prime Minister to go into the negotiations with skill, persuasion and diplomacy. Others should follow her example.

Only then will we start to heal the wounds that have been inflicted by this divisive debate which, thus far, has been one of the most damaging in the history of British politics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4327784/John-Major-s-plea-Theresa-disown-Brexiteers.html

[Libertine]

Very good article exploding the myth in Anglo-American media and political circles that the EU is in decline:

Europe's Reverse Domino Effect

No One Is Following Britain Out of the EU

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/2017-03-16/europes-reverse-domino-effect

[GREGtheRED]

Very good article exploding the myth in Anglo-American media and political circles that the EU is in decline:

Europe's Reverse Domino Effect

No One Is Following Britain Out of the EU

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/2017-03-16/europes-reverse-domino-effect

I don't think the quiet majority of those who voted leave were of the opinion that the EU is in terminal decline, or were of the hope that Brexit would be the first domino.

I really hope that the EU continues to grow and nations strengthen ties; ultimately I think the people of Europe will benefit from that. It just isn't, and never has been, in the British psyche to be firmly at the centre of such a European community and as such I am fairly at ease with our decision to leave. For all the bawling in the press from extremists on both sides, I don't think the vast majority of leavers think much different to me.

It won't be the end for them, and it won't be the end for us.

[Alan_X]

It just isn't, and never has been, in the British psyche to be firmly at the centre of such a European community and as such I am fairly at ease with our decision to leave.

Could you explain that to me? You and the quiet majority voted to give up access to the single market, freedom of movement, environmental protection, manufacturing standards, employment rights and all the other benefits of being a member of the European Union because it's not 'in the British Psyche'?...

Maybe the British Psyche needs to grow up and understand we're not an Empire anymore. Just an island (soon to be divided) off the mainland of Europe hoping that a lunatic orange-faced liar is going to be nice to us.

[killer-heels]

I don't think the quiet majority of those who voted leave were of the opinion that the EU is in terminal decline, or were of the hope that Brexit would be the first domino.

I really hope that the EU continues to grow and nations strengthen ties; ultimately I think the people of Europe will benefit from that. It just isn't, and never has been, in the British psyche to be firmly at the centre of such a European community and as such I am fairly at ease with our decision to leave. For all the bawling in the press from extremists on both sides, I don't think the vast majority of leavers think much different to me.

It won't be the end for them, and it won't be the end for us.

Is it in the British pysche to be a bunch of sell outs? We have flogged all our organisations to foreign investors who actually do have a European psyche. Do you think they are going to take it well when they will have barriers to trade into Europe?

We own fuck all in this country when it comes to large organisations. The public may be happy with our distance for political and social reasons but business wont be.

[Libertine]

Brexit is causing foreign construction workers to already start leaving, says Battersea Power Station developer



https://t.co/nyCZUeqRcG


"I know one housebuilder who had 15,000 workers on site before Christmas and after Christmas only 11,000 came back"...

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/843195787265933313

[west_london_red]

Is it in the British pysche to be a bunch of sell outs? We have flogged all our organisations to foreign investors who actually do have a European psyche. Do you think they are going to take it well when they will have barriers to trade into Europe?

We own fuck all in this country when it comes to large organisations. The public may be happy with our distance for political and social reasons but business wont be.

Busiess has spent the last 100 years supporting and financing the Tory party in the hope of forwarding their own narrow interests over that of the country, and this is where it has got them. Hopefully it's a lesson for them they remember.

[killer-heels]

Busiess has spent the last 100 years supporting and financing the Tory party in the hope of forwarding their own narrow interests over that of the country, and this is where it has got them. Hopefully it's a lesson for them they remember.

Indeed and its the one chance that Labour has to win over the business vote if it was competent enough to do so.

[Party Phil]

John Major in the Mail on Sunday (which supported Remain). Quoting in full because one hit to that website to get this is one hit too many. The tl:dr of his message to the government is "Are you all fucking mad?".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4327784/John-Major-s-plea-Theresa-disown-Brexiteers.html

I'd love to see the comments section on that article but unfortunately I refuse to use their website. Presumably John Major is now an enemy of the people, traitor ISIS sympathiser, etc.

[BarryCrocker]

You have a date.



Theresa May to trigger article 50 on 29 March

UK’s permanent representative to the European Union has told the bloc to expect a letter on that date...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/20/theresa-may-to-trigger-article-50-on-29-march