Poll

How do we think the UK Will do - Assuming Brexit happens (Hard or Soft..)

Things will be brilliant from the word go and will get better every week!
Things will start off a bit dodgy, but over time things gradually improve and get better
Things will start off dodgy and remain that way for the forseeable future
Things will start off dodgy and then decline slightly with things getting a bit worse
Complete clusterfuck from start to finish

Author Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)  (Read 866166 times)

Offline cowtownred

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3600 on: March 14, 2017, 07:09:24 pm »
He's 10 out of 10 for a united Ireland - he voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement on exactly that principle.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1985/nov/27/anglo-irish-agreement

Oh I know that Alan... what I mean his chances are rocketing to about 6 (from about 2 or so 5 years ago).  I know he fully supported the Armalite/ballot box strategy.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3601 on: March 14, 2017, 07:37:57 pm »
It is going to be interesting and we all have our own views on this.
I think the EU will bend over backwards for Scotland for a few reasons.
The Scottish MEP got a standing ovation from all the other EU members MEPs last June, he told them Scotland wanted to remain in the EU and he pleaded with them not to forsake Scotland.
If Scotland are fast tracked back in then it will encourage the rest of the UK to rejoin in the future..
It wouldn't be wise to delay their re-entry for years as the UK stay campaign argument would be weakened in the future. the leave campaign would argue it's no good crying over spilt milk, it would take many years to rejoin the EU even if we wanted too.
If Scotland do make a success of Brexit then this will really rub salt in the wounds of Frottage and all the other leave campaigners trying to break up the EU.
I was impressed just how well Sturgeon argued the case for another referendum as well. she mentioned how it was a proviso in the SNP manifesto, she argued the SNP has exhausted all avenues with the UK government to fight for Scotlands interests, they were promised more of a say in their own affairs and they've met a brick wall. May has come out of this looking like a novice.
Ive no idea what happens now as it all boils down to the argument of whether they can remain if the rest of the UK leave, if they can remain then they are justified wanting plenty of time to make sure the legal complications are completed. referendums cant be held at short notice so this will be a problem.
The government would have to announce the final deal months before the 2yr deadline.
EU can't negotiate with Scotland before there is an agreement with UK on independence. That won't happen before the Brexit, which is only two years away. So, UK and Scotland would definitely be outside EU at that point, and a new agreement for letting Scotland join would be necessary. Remember, UK has a special deal that the rest hates. 27 parliaments will need to approve the agreement. It will take many years.
I think EU is sick and tired of UK - including Scotland.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3602 on: March 14, 2017, 08:14:20 pm »
EU can't negotiate with Scotland before there is an agreement with UK on independence. That won't happen before the Brexit, which is only two years away. So, UK and Scotland would definitely be outside EU at that point, and a new agreement for letting Scotland join would be necessary. Remember, UK has a special deal that the rest hates. 27 parliaments will need to approve the agreement. It will take many years.
I think EU is sick and tired of UK - including Scotland.
The question is does Westminister have the right to trigger art 50 on Scotlands behalf.
The EU are very sympathetic to Scotlands situation, this may be one of the first issues discussed after we trigger art 50 so nobody can say they are definite about any of this.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3603 on: March 14, 2017, 08:41:13 pm »
The question is does Westminister have the right to trigger art 50 on Scotlands behalf.
The EU are very sympathetic to Scotlands situation, this may be one of the first issues discussed after we trigger art 50 so nobody can say they are definite about any of this.

Irrelevant as Scotland are not a member of the EU, the UK is.

There is no separate membership for what are effectively provinces.  Just as the Brexit vote was for the whole of the UK not pick and mix province, county, town, street........

"In or out" we voted out and, for better or for worse, that's where we will go.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 08:44:24 pm by ABZ Rover »
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3604 on: March 14, 2017, 08:49:12 pm »
The question is does Westminister have the right to trigger art 50 on Scotlands behalf.
The EU are very sympathetic to Scotlands situation, this may be one of the first issues discussed after we trigger art 50 so nobody can say they are definite about any of this.

The EU might be sympathetic, but 27 countries will need to be sympathetic too.

On the flip side having Scotland in the EU might benefit the rest of the UK due to the amount of trade that goes on between the two, it might make a good trade deal more likely.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3605 on: March 14, 2017, 08:54:46 pm »
Good article in the FT by @Law_and_policy (well worth a follow for constitutional law issues)
https://www.ft.com/content/eef5f5a9-825a-3c5f-9337-1cbcd3b02f51

Yes, I think this is instructive:

But constitutional practice is not always the same as constitutional theory


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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3606 on: March 14, 2017, 11:48:27 pm »
People may be moaning about Sturgeon doing this but I think you will see opinion polls move in her favour and if that happens you will definitely see the government try to kiss arse and do all they can to preserve the union.

Last time the closing of the polls got all of Westminster dashing to Scotland to campaign and dont think for a second that wont happen again. The 'No' side now know that they cannot use the same 'Better Together' project fear tactics and there is no way they have the will for another fight on this.

For those people who want a soft Brexit, the Scotland issue may be the only possibility of that happening.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 11:49:58 pm by killer_heels »

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3607 on: March 15, 2017, 02:11:23 am »
Interesting turn of events



Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum plans were rapidly unravelling tonight as it emerged she is to abandon the SNP’s policy of rejoining the EU immediately amid record Euroscepticism in Scotland.

Just a day after the Scottish First Minister demanded a second vote on independence, senior Nationalist sources told The Daily Telegraph that Ms Sturgeon would instead try to join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), whose members include Norway and Iceland.

Ms Sturgeon fears that the SNP’s long-standing policy of an independent Scotland joining the EU would put off the 400,000 voters who backed independence in 2014 and also voted Leave in last year’s EU referendum. They represent one quarter of all those who voted for independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/




As I said earlier, it's not about any specific reasons, be it the EU, the economy or whatever, it's about splitting the union no matter what the cost. Expect more fumbling and vague promises over the next few months. She'll happily backtrack and promise anything to get the result she wants in this second "once in a generation" referendum
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3608 on: March 15, 2017, 07:17:00 am »
Interesting turn of events



Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum plans were rapidly unravelling tonight as it emerged she is to abandon the SNP’s policy of rejoining the EU immediately amid record Euroscepticism in Scotland.

Just a day after the Scottish First Minister demanded a second vote on independence, senior Nationalist sources told The Daily Telegraph that Ms Sturgeon would instead try to join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), whose members include Norway and Iceland.

Ms Sturgeon fears that the SNP’s long-standing policy of an independent Scotland joining the EU would put off the 400,000 voters who backed independence in 2014 and also voted Leave in last year’s EU referendum. They represent one quarter of all those who voted for independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/




As I said earlier, it's not about any specific reasons, be it the EU, the economy or whatever, it's about splitting the union no matter what the cost. Expect more fumbling and vague promises over the next few months. She'll happily backtrack and promise anything to get the result she wants in this second "once in a generation" referendum

That'd be fine with me initially. Why have you quoted a poll from September last year? Sorry misread that I think it means the changes (or lack of) are compared to their last poll in September.

P.S. Still waiting for your evidence it is all about 'those English Bastards'. No rush...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:00:02 am by elmo_swatloski »

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3609 on: March 15, 2017, 07:35:34 am »
The question is does Westminister have the right to trigger art 50 on Scotlands behalf.
The EU are very sympathetic to Scotlands situation, this may be one of the first issues discussed after we trigger art 50 so nobody can say they are definite about any of this.
Of course they do, just like they joined EU on Scotland's behalf. UK is still a sovereign nation with control over Scotland, and if EU ignores that principle the whole union will fracture. UK is far from the only country with regions that have ambitions to become independent.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3610 on: March 15, 2017, 08:01:06 am »
That'd be fine with me initially. Why have you quoted a polll from September last year?

P.S. Still waiting for your evidence it is all about 'those English Bastards'. No rush...

The changes (I.e none) are from last September. The poll Is from after her speech.

I already replied to you, if you didn't see a lot of anti English rhetoric across the internet during the last referendum then you werent paying attention
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3611 on: March 15, 2017, 08:17:08 am »
The changes (I.e none) are from last September. The poll Is from after her speech.

I already replied to you, if you didn't see a lot of anti English rhetoric across the internet during the last referendum then you werent paying attention

As I said that isn't evidence.

I could go online and find a bunch of No supporters spouting anti-Scottish comments (just take a look at the Daily Mails coments section on any article about Scotland. I don't go around calling the English racist against Scotland - I recognise that there are a minority of idiots on either side of any campaign or rivalry, including football for example.

Twitter is a cesspit that should never be used to judge the character of larger collective of people.

It's frustrating because we get told we are racists, and anti-English, and then when people point to examples of why we aren't, we get told we are trying to show we are more compassionate or morally superior than the English.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3612 on: March 15, 2017, 08:25:31 am »
As I said that isn't evidence.

I could go online and find a bunch of No supporters spouting anti-Scottish comments (just take a look at the Daily Mails coments section on any article about Scotland. I don't go around calling the English racist against Scotland - I recognise that there are a minority of idiots on either side of any campaign or rivalry, including football for example.

Twitter is a cesspit that should never be used to judge the character of larger collective of people.

It's frustrating because we get told we are racists, and anti-English, and then when people point to examples of why we aren't, we get told we are trying to show we are more compassionate or morally superior than the English.

So we're just ignoring the poll now, and the fact that after 24 hours, a referendum campaign built on a lie is already changing it's fundamental stances. Got it.

I'm not in a court of law, frankly I couldn't give a toss about finding statistical evidence, if you want to ignore the hate that was spewed last time around then be my guest. But there's a reason 1 in 7 No voters were too afraid to tell people that they voted to remain as part of the UK.

We'll watch it all play out again, but as it stands right now it seems most Scots can see through the nonsense.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:28:03 am by Crosby Wych »
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3613 on: March 15, 2017, 08:40:27 am »
So we're just ignoring the poll now, and the fact that after 24 hours, a referendum campaign built on a lie is already changing it's fundamental stances. Got it.

I'm not in a court of law, frankly I couldn't give a toss about finding statistical evidence, if you want to ignore the hate that was spewed last time around then be my guest. But there's a reason 1 in 7 No voters were too afraid to tell people that they voted to remain as part of the UK.

We'll watch it all play out again, but as it stands right now it seems most Scots can see through the nonsense.

Sorry what poll? The one that is within the margin of error of the one from the other day?

I'm not ignoring any hate, I'm certainly not just ignoring the hate on just one side like you are. I'm treating it with the context it deserves.

I live in Scotland, have done all my life and was involved in the last campaign. If there was the slightest hint that the campaign for independence was anti-English or racist in any way I would disown it. Yes there were heated debates and arguments all up and down the country, people disagreed with their friends, family and colleagues, yet I personaally don't know of a single example of anyone who has fallen out at all.

Come up and here and experience what it is actually like rather judging from afar based on (from the evidence you have linked.....) nothing, before casting aspersions on half a country.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3614 on: March 15, 2017, 09:05:43 am »
Dont understand why at this moment and with all thats going on why people south of the border are so against independent Scotland?

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3615 on: March 15, 2017, 09:31:14 am »
Dont understand why at this moment and with all thats going on why people south of the border are so against independent Scotland?

True. If the UK wants out of the EU then you can't really complain when Scotland wants out of the UK.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3616 on: March 15, 2017, 10:00:42 am »
David Davis is up before the Brexit committee this morning, basically confirming that the government haven't got a clue about anything

EDIT: Now he's saying that although the government haven't done an assessment of what might happen if we left the EU with no deal it's ok because he has 'an idea of how things would turn out'.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 10:20:59 am by Danny Boys Dad »
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3617 on: March 15, 2017, 11:08:47 am »
Interesting turn of events



Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum plans were rapidly unravelling tonight as it emerged she is to abandon the SNP’s policy of rejoining the EU immediately amid record Euroscepticism in Scotland.

Just a day after the Scottish First Minister demanded a second vote on independence, senior Nationalist sources told The Daily Telegraph that Ms Sturgeon would instead try to join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), whose members include Norway and Iceland.

Ms Sturgeon fears that the SNP’s long-standing policy of an independent Scotland joining the EU would put off the 400,000 voters who backed independence in 2014 and also voted Leave in last year’s EU referendum. They represent one quarter of all those who voted for independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/




As I said earlier, it's not about any specific reasons, be it the EU, the economy or whatever, it's about splitting the union no matter what the cost. Expect more fumbling and vague promises over the next few months. She'll happily backtrack and promise anything to get the result she wants in this second "once in a generation" referendum
Take it back. shes f... up big time. it took one day for her to realize the leave voters might refuse to vote for independence as they voted to leave the EU. this should have been obvious.
The first step should have been to demand to stay or rejoin the EU before independence.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3618 on: March 15, 2017, 11:14:41 am »
Sorry what poll? The one that is within the margin of error of the one from the other day?

I'm not ignoring any hate, I'm certainly not just ignoring the hate on just one side like you are. I'm treating it with the context it deserves.

I live in Scotland, have done all my life and was involved in the last campaign. If there was the slightest hint that the campaign for independence was anti-English or racist in any way I would disown it. Yes there were heated debates and arguments all up and down the country, people disagreed with their friends, family and colleagues, yet I personaally don't know of a single example of anyone who has fallen out at all.

Come up and here and experience what it is actually like rather judging from afar based on (from the evidence you have linked.....) nothing, before casting aspersions on half a country.

You complain about anecdotal evidence, then talk about your own and ask me to come up and experience more anecdotal evidence.

As I said in the previous post, Sturgeon has already publicly lied and is now making huge changes to fundamental ideas to get the result she wants. The stance of her and others in the SNP is dogmatic, nothing else matters and nothing else can change her mind, it's independence at any cost. It's fundamentally a one issue party, and they'll get shown up as that more and more as the referendum draws nearer. Would like to see Sturgeon on TV debating somebody like Gordon Brown who would show the independence idea up for what it inevitably will be, poorly thought out and based on emotion not fact

Nationalists are a dangerous kind of person and should be opposed at every turn, as they rise up across Europe.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:17:56 am by Crosby Wych »
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3619 on: March 15, 2017, 11:27:44 am »
You complain about anecdotal evidence, then talk about your own and ask me to come up and experience more anecdotal evidence.

As I said in the previous post, Sturgeon has already publicly lied and is now making huge changes to fundamental ideas to get the result she wants. The stance of her and others in the SNP is dogmatic, nothing else matters and nothing else can change her mind, it's independence at any cost. It's fundamentally a one issue party, and they'll get shown up as that more and more as the referendum draws nearer. Would like to see Sturgeon on TV debating somebody like Gordon Brown who would show the independence idea up for what it inevitably will be, poorly thought out and based on emotion not fact


You are the one that made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

What has Sturgeon publically lied about? Would be good to get specific examples. I don't see the problem with initially going for EFTA initially, it will help ease the transition, and regardless it is just rumours at the moment, nothing has been confirmed.

Nationalists are a dangerous kind of person and should be opposed at every turn, as they rise up across Europe.

Reducing the debate to such simple arguments doesn't help anyone. How are you defining nationalism? Can you not see the difference between the type of nationalism espoused by the SNP compared to it's antithesis promoted by the likes of UKIP? What about the nationalism espoused by Labour and the Tories? They believe in the nation state of the UK - only difference with the SNP is the nation state they believe in.


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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3620 on: March 15, 2017, 11:38:16 am »
True. If the UK wants out of the EU then you can't really complain when Scotland wants out of the UK.

The problem for the Independence campaign since the last referendum is that the economic case has probably gotten even weaker for an independent Scotland, while the political case has gotten considerably stronger.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3621 on: March 15, 2017, 12:17:42 pm »
You complain about anecdotal evidence, then talk about your own and ask me to come up and experience more anecdotal evidence.

As I said in the previous post, Sturgeon has already publicly lied and is now making huge changes to fundamental ideas to get the result she wants. The stance of her and others in the SNP is dogmatic, nothing else matters and nothing else can change her mind, it's independence at any cost. It's fundamentally a one issue party, and they'll get shown up as that more and more as the referendum draws nearer. Would like to see Sturgeon on TV debating somebody like Gordon Brown who would show the independence idea up for what it inevitably will be, poorly thought out and based on emotion not fact

Nationalists are a dangerous kind of person and should be opposed at every turn, as they rise up across Europe.
The thing people miss on this particular point is that many who will vote to stay in the UK should there be a 2nd referendum will do so in aid of British nationalism. And British nationalism is more racist and bigoted than Scottish nationalism from where I'm standing.

Scotland and England are on different paths. The union is untenable. I would genuinely consider voting to stay in the UK if Labour and Scottish Labour weren't such a shambles, but alas..
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3622 on: March 15, 2017, 12:32:36 pm »
True. If the UK wants out of the EU then you can't really complain when Scotland wants out of the UK.

A lot of people are against it for the sake of the Scots as much as for the wider UK

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3623 on: March 15, 2017, 01:29:35 pm »
Davis admits UK has not assessed Brexit without Brussels deal

MPs told British businesses face possible tariffs and non-tariff barriers
https://www.ft.com/content/e87aebb0-0963-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43

30-40% for meat/dairy producers, 10% for cars, passporting for financial services - fuck knows . . .

Well, they probably have done an assessment, but having recognised that its a POS have chosen to bury it.  Meanwhile, and right on cue, Phil steps out into the commons to announce the U-turn over self employed NI to try to distract everyone.

Fucking amateurs.

[Edit: to read FT article without subscription, google search 'Davis admits UK has not assessed Brexit without Brussels deal' and click on FT link in results.]
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 06:46:22 pm by Red Raw »

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3624 on: March 15, 2017, 01:34:37 pm »
Isn't a simple solution to the issue of an independent Scotland's status in the EU to place it at the centre of a general election, or even another referendum after independence? "Simple" may not be the right word, but I feel it's an issue that should be easier for the SNP to tackle than what currency they'd use, for example.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 01:44:10 pm by ShakaHislop »

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3625 on: March 15, 2017, 02:51:40 pm »
Davis admits UK has not assessed Brexit without Brussels deal

MPs told British businesses face possible tariffs and non-tariff barriers
https://www.ft.com/content/e87aebb0-0963-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43

30-40% for meat/dairy producers, 10% for cars, passporting for financial services - fuck knows . . .

Well, they probably have done an assessment, but having recognised that its a POS have chosen to bury it.  Meanwhile, and right on cue, Phil steps out into the commons to announce the U-turn over self employed NI to try to distract everyone.

Fucking amateurs.
F...amateurs is right and they tell us we should be positive.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3626 on: March 15, 2017, 05:11:45 pm »
Davis admits UK has not assessed Brexit without Brussels deal

MPs told British businesses face possible tariffs and non-tariff barriers
https://www.ft.com/content/e87aebb0-0963-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43

30-40% for meat/dairy producers, 10% for cars, passporting for financial services - fuck knows . . .

Well, they probably have done an assessment, but having recognised that its a POS have chosen to bury it.  Meanwhile, and right on cue, Phil steps out into the commons to announce the U-turn over self employed NI to try to distract everyone.

Fucking amateurs.

Ian Dunt's commentary on that committee's proceedings today is both very funny and very concerning if you had any expectation of the government knowing what it was doing.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/841942015482966021

Quote
Just take a moment to recognise that that was an exchange on a warning from a body set up by government to do forecasts about slowed growth due to this policy. D[avid] D[avies'] answer was that he doesn't believe in forecasts. It's like fucking Benjamin Button. We started as post-Enlightenment - are now regressing through the 1800 and 1700s and will soon be torturing ppl to death because they think the earth revolves around the sun.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3627 on: March 15, 2017, 07:08:20 pm »
The more you hear them the more fucked you realise we are

What the fuck are they playing at?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3628 on: March 15, 2017, 07:18:03 pm »
Farmers are fucked. Loads of them backed Brexit and most was on the proviso that they would get tarriff free access to Europe to continue to sell their produce but if there were barriers then in the UK barriers against outside producers would protect them.

What will actually happen is that to get trade deals the UK will remove tarriffs for produce outside the EU so the ones here will be up against cheap produce here whilst major barriers abroad.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3629 on: March 15, 2017, 07:23:42 pm »
Ian Dunt's commentary on that committee's proceedings today is both very funny and very concerning if you had any expectation of the government knowing what it was doing.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/841942015482966021
Quite a twitter marathon from Dunt!  Very good - some of my tweet highlights:
Quote
Ian Dunt 9h
  • He does not explain why the government is threatening to do something it openly admits it does not understand.
  • On May statement that no deal is better than bad deal: 'That is true. I can't quantify it for you yet.'
  • Sometimes in business you know a deal is better even when you don't have the numbers.
  • 'This deal is unique. The approach we have taken to it is unique too.' You can say that again mate.
  • I pray this man is lying. Because if he actually believes this stuff, we are in serious trouble.
  • Now friendly questions from Peter Lilley.
  • I can confirm that Peter Lilley understands nothing.
:butt

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3630 on: March 15, 2017, 07:26:33 pm »


We


Are


Soooooo


Fucked
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3631 on: March 15, 2017, 07:29:11 pm »
I am going to say it. I dont mind David Davis. He has initially set out an idea of what he wanted prior to the referendum but since then he hasnt tried to sugar coat anything.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3632 on: March 15, 2017, 07:33:24 pm »
Farmers are fucked. Loads of them backed Brexit and most was on the proviso that they would get tarriff free access to Europe to continue to sell their produce but if there were barriers then in the UK barriers against outside producers would protect them.

What will actually happen is that to get trade deals the UK will remove tarriffs for produce outside the EU so the ones here will be up against cheap produce here whilst major barriers abroad.

Yes they are, but they were warned before the vote what could happen, just like all the other fucking idiots that voted to leave!!!

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3633 on: March 15, 2017, 07:40:40 pm »
I am going to say it. I dont mind David Davis. He has initially set out an idea of what he wanted prior to the referendum but since then he hasnt tried to sugar coat anything.
Benn's questioning was very good and arguably DD is less of a twat than this fucker, but then the bar is pretty bastarding low.


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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3634 on: March 15, 2017, 07:41:59 pm »
I am going to say it. I dont mind David Davis. He has initially set out an idea of what he wanted prior to the referendum but since then he hasnt tried to sugar coat anything.

He's definitely the best of a bad bunch, with the bar being extremely low of course, Fox, IDS and Gove etc are just total c*nts!

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3635 on: March 15, 2017, 08:03:50 pm »
He's definitely the best of a bad bunch, with the bar being extremely low of course, Fox, IDS and Gove etc are just total c*nts!

I am not his cheerleader whatsoever but Davis does know the detail and knows how the EU works. He is definitely qualified for this Brexit role, unlike many people in the government.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3636 on: March 15, 2017, 10:36:14 pm »
I am not his cheerleader whatsoever but Davis does know the detail and knows how the EU works. He is definitely qualified for this Brexit role, unlike many people in the government.

He can't bullshit a happy ending for this when he's responsible for delivering it. At the same time, he's doing his best to ignore anything which would suggest that his long held ambition is going to be an absolute clusterfuck.

The whole "we'll walk away if they don't give us a good deal" idea was one of his dimmer suggestions.

eg. from 2014

Quote
“The remaining EU members have a massive vested interest in ongoing free trade with the UK,” he said.
“If a British exit happened tomorrow, we would be the EU’s single biggest market, accounting for 21 per cent of its exports, so our negotiating clout would be enormous.

“In short, we can get a good deal from the EU, and the EU knows it. Exit is neither high-risk nor frightening.

“Just as the ability to walk away means you can strike a better price for that house or car, so having an attractive alternative allows us to get a better deal in Europe.

Daily Heil link

Even the satire of this approach is sensible by comparison.

Quote
After admitting the government has undertaken no economic assessment of the impact of leaving the EU without a negotiated settlement, Brexit minister David Davis has been reminded that this isn’t how bluffing works.

Davis has already made clear to his EU counterparts that the UK would rather walk away without any deal than take a bad deal; though today’s announcement has led to those same EU counterparts eagerly stroking their chins this evening.

Office worker and Brexiter Simon Williams told us, “I’m no negotiation expert, but if you’re telling the other party you’ll happily walk away without a deal if the terms aren’t good enough, then surely you should have taken a cursory look at the impact of actually walking away without a deal?

“I mean, otherwise the other side is going to know you’re just bluffing, right?

“Look, I get my arse handed to me every time I play poker, and even I know that.”

http://newsthump.com/2017/03/15/thats-not-how-bluffing-works-nation-tells-brexit-minister-david-davis/
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3637 on: March 15, 2017, 10:58:19 pm »
He can't bullshit a happy ending for this when he's responsible for delivering it. At the same time, he's doing his best to ignore anything which would suggest that his long held ambition is going to be an absolute clusterfuck.

The whole "we'll walk away if they don't give us a good deal" idea was one of his dimmer suggestions.

eg. from 2014

Daily Heil link

Even the satire of this approach is sensible by comparison.

http://newsthump.com/2017/03/15/thats-not-how-bluffing-works-nation-tells-brexit-minister-david-davis/


Davis has held this view for ages and was arguing those points in empty, end of day commons debates. Again i am no fan of his but he wont be polishing a turd for May, unlike many of the other extreme Brexiteers and Boris/Gove.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3638 on: March 15, 2017, 11:44:12 pm »
You are the one that made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

What has Sturgeon publically lied about? Would be good to get specific examples. I don't see the problem with initially going for EFTA initially, it will help ease the transition, and regardless it is just rumours at the moment, nothing has been confirmed.

Reducing the debate to such simple arguments doesn't help anyone. How are you defining nationalism? Can you not see the difference between the type of nationalism espoused by the SNP compared to it's antithesis promoted by the likes of UKIP? What about the nationalism espoused by Labour and the Tories? They believe in the nation state of the UK - only difference with the SNP is the nation state they believe in.



Burden of proof? Fine, 1 in 7 Scots were afraid to tell people that they voted to remain in the UK.

Sturgeon lying? Sure, the IndyRef was in her words a "once in a generation decision", now a couple years later she's doing anything she can to push for another one. Within 24 hours of the announcement she's already willing to backtrack on EU Membership if it'll get her the result she wants. It's took one day for backtracking on the apparent cause for a second referendum to begin, what else will follow in the coming months?

As I said, every issue except for Scottish Independence is secondary to her, it's not about the EU, it's about splitting up the UK by any means necessary. Scotland losing jobs or it's economy shrinking? As long as she gets her independence result that's irrelevant.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:45:47 pm by Crosby Wych »
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #3639 on: March 16, 2017, 12:00:16 am »
Scottish Independence is the best defence to a hard brexit. People in England looking to stay in the EU and against Brexit should be for it.