Topic: RIP Christopher Hitchens

[Mutton Geoff]

 i am pretty sure they performed the last rights on him, but hell i will read the end of his biog again on my kindle to make sure, i never suggested he took to the cloth.

[Yorkykopite]

i am pretty sure they performed the last rights on him, but hell i will read the end of his biog again on my kindle to make sure, i never suggested he took to the cloth.

I'm pretty sure they didn't!

[Mutton Geoff]

I'm pretty sure they didn't!

In that case Yorky i will stand corrected, must have misread it. I however agree with his stance on religions, all religions totally.

[Yorkykopite]

In that case Yorky i will stand corrected, must have misread it. I however agree with his stance on religions, all religions totally.

He talked about the possibility of some cleric (of what religion he didn't say) creeping into his room while he was helpless on his deathbed and reading a bit of scriptural gobbledegook over his corpse-to-be. And he warned all his family and friends to be alive to such a horrible eventuality and to stop it if it occurred.

There was a serious point too. It happened to his hero Tom Paine in 1809. Although Tom had still been alert enough to beat the opportunistic clerics away.

[Mutton Geoff]

He talked about the possibility of some cleric (of what religion he didn't say) creeping into his room while he was helpless on his deathbed and reading a bit of scriptural gobbledegook over his corpse-to-be. And he warned all his family and friends to be alive to such a horrible eventuality and to stop it if it occurred.

There was a serious point too. It happened to his hero Tom Paine in 1809. Although Tom had still been alert enough to beat the opportunistic clerics away.

Aye that must have been it Yorky, and i got confused thanks sir.

 (my silver or white hair didn't come on its own sadly)

[downtown]

Timely acknowledgement of the great man.

Will be reading "God Is Not Great" the moment I'm done reading this Lenin book.

He knew.

[bigbonedrawky]

Was this guy some kind of cult leader ? Is this thread for the purpose of worship ?

[Corkboy]

Was this guy some kind of cult leader ? Is this thread for the purpose of worship ?

Well, you could always read it....

[chilongooner]

As  a long time subscriber of Atlantic Monthly , I used to come across his literary reviews in the magazine.

Never have I read a reviewer who came across as such a stuck-up, condescending, pompous asshole. He is clearly well read but his reviews  came across like he was sticking his nose up and saying 'I read more books than you therefore my opinion is better than yours'. I particularly didn't like the way he talked down on sci-fi when clearly writers like Herbert, Asimov and Heinlein were capable of much greater art than he was himself.

I know he has a lot of fans because he called Mother Theresa a "whore" or something but his literary reviews were so arrogant and self-congratulating. That Mother Theresa comment just showed he completely lacks class.

[Corkboy]

I know he has a lot of fans because he called Mother Theresa a "whore" or something

Yeah, that's exactly why he has lots of fans.

[Card Cheat]

Fucking hell. I click on unread topics, see 'RIP Christopher Hitchens' and then momentarily experience a moment of shock.

I hate forgetting who's dead.

I blame the internet.

I know he has a lot of fans because he called Mother Theresa a "whore" or something but his literary reviews were so arrogant and self-congratulating. That Mother Theresa comment just showed he completely lacks class.

He wrote an exposé on her. I don't recall him calling her a whore specifically, but if he did he was being kind.

[chilongooner]

Yeah, that's exactly why he has lots of fans.

I was using  that comment as a metonym for what he seemed to do to gather a lot of fans: attack religion from an irreverent and insulting manner.

[Yorkykopite]

Was this guy some kind of cult leader ? Is this thread for the purpose of worship ?

I admired him tremendously as a writer. This thread was opened on the day he died, at a relatively young age. He wasn't the head of a cult and so far as I know nobody is treating him as such. And I very much doubt anyone worships Hitchens, especially after reading what he says about worship.

I'm surprised you've not heard of Hitchens, though not so surprised that you've never read any of his works. Then again you're probably being sarcastic.

[chilongooner]

He wrote an exposé on her. I don't recall him calling her a whore specifically, but if he did he was being kind.

And me calling him an arrogant, condescending, pompous self aggrandizing ego maniac who contributed nothing of value but to try to come off better than others is being kind as well.

Never read another writer in 15 years of Atlantic that rubbed me the wrong way every time - and this was from his  style in literary reviews and had nothing to do with what I would  later learn about his immature temper tantrums at religion (and I am not a religious person).

[Corkboy]

I was using  that comment as a metonym for what he seemed to do to gather a lot of fans: attack religion from an irreverent and insulting manner.

Metonym, eh? I do not think that means what you think it means.

Anyway, if you can bear it....

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

[chilongooner]

Metonym, eh? I do not think that means what you think it means.

Anyway, if you can bear it....

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

I know exactly what it means. I had to write a paper on it  for cog linguistics class in Uni lol.

Metonym:
"the substitution of the name of an attribute or adjunct for that of the thing meant, for example suit for business executive, or the track for horse racing."

So I was taking the single example of something irreverent he said towards religion and substituted that for his general overall perspective on attacking religion through irreverence and insults.

Actually here is a quote from a book my linguistics prof wrote on the topic back in 1980 (his specialty in linguistics was conceptual metaphor and metonymy and cognitive framing).

"Metonymic thinking was characterized in general terms as that which allows us “to conceptualize one thing by means of its relation to something else" (Lakoff and Johnson 1980:39) or more precisely as the practice "to take one well-understood or easy-to-perceive aspect of something and use it to stand either for the thing as a whole or for some other aspect or part of it" (Lakoff 1987:77). This brought about a much less restricted view of metonymy than the traditional approach, and a number of expressions which previously had not been considered examples of metonymy were classed as such."

The books relevant are:
Metaphors We Live By - Lakoff and Johnson
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY2013/cs7601_spring/papers/Lakoff_Johnson.pdf

Women, Fire and Dangerous Things - Lakoff
http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/George-Lakoff-Women-Fire-and-Dangerous-Things.pdf

[Corkboy]

I know exactly what it means. I had to write a paper on it  for cog linguistics class in Uni lol.

Metonym:
"the substitution of the name of an attribute or adjunct for that of the thing meant, for example suit for business executive, or the track for horse racing."

"He has a lot of fans because he called MT a whore."

Nope. What you did was just state something false. Your linguistics professor would be ashamed of you.

[Redman0151]

I was using  that comment as a metonym for what he seemed to do to gather a lot of fans: attack religion from an irreverent and insulting manner.

Guess it makes a nice change from religion attacking everybody else

[chilongooner]

"He has a lot of fans because he called MT a whore."

Nope. What you did was just state something false. Your linguistics professor would be ashamed of you.

Not really as I can explain it logically.

Calling MT a whore is something Hitchens did.
The category that statement belongs to is "attacking and insulting religion based on irreverence".
Hitchens gained a lot of fans by attacking and insulting religion based on irreverent comments yes?

So I am substituting one example of something that Hitchens did that fits the overall category that it falls under.

Unless you want to deny that Hitchens gained a lot of fans by attacking  and insulting religion in an irreverent manner?

Calling MT a whore lies within the category of "attacking and insulting religion in an irreverent manner".

Sure I chose that particular metonym out of others because it was more controversial.  But as I explained it, it is 100% a conceptual metonym for what Hitchens wrote books on.

"to take one well-understood or easy-to-perceive aspect (calling MT a whore) of something and use it to stand either for the thing as a whole or for some other aspect or part of it (Hitchens ongoing attacks and insults on religion in an irreverent manner)"

[Yorkykopite]

Not really as I can explain it logically.....etc etc

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "logically".

[chilongooner]

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "logically".

I don't think you do.

What I said was perfectly logically and fits completely within the established theories of conceptual metaphor and metonym.

I love how you don't actually even attempt to state how it wasn't  logical especially as I laid out exactly how it fits conceptual metonym. But I guess its just easier to dismiss anything you don't like the sound of.

[TepidT2O]

I don't think you do.

What I said was perfectly logically and fits completely within the established theories of conceptual metaphor and metonym.

I love how you don't actually even attempt to state how it wasn't  logical especially as I laid out exactly how it fits conceptual metonym. But I guess its just easier to dismiss anything you don't like the sound of.

What are your opinions on Christopher Hitchens and his works?

[electricghost]

I know he has a lot of fans because he called Mother Theresa a "whore" or something

What an incredibly stupid thing to say

[chilongooner]

What an incredibly stupid thing to say

I already explained it.

Christopher Hitchens has a lot of fans because he irreverently attacks and insults religion.

Calling MT a whore (among other things) is a single instance of that category.

It wasn't a literal statement but a metonymic one.

But  the reactions are about what I expected. No one actually discussing, just personal insults and ad hominem. Carry on.

[TepidT2O]

I already explained it.

Christopher Hitchens has a lot of fans because he irreverently attacks and insults religion.

Calling MT a whore (among other things) is a single instance of that category.

It wasn't a literal statement but a metonymic one.

But  the reactions are about what I expected. No one actually discussing, just personal insults and ad hominem. Carry on.

What do you know about Hitchens and his work?

Currently your understanding constitutes about three words.

Kindly make some greater effort to contribute or otherwise fuck off out of the thread with your ignorance.

[chilongooner]

What do you know about Hitchens and his work?

Currently your understanding constitutes about three words.

Kindly make some greater effort to contribute or otherwise fuck off out of the thread with your ignorance.

You can fuck off if you can't even read up to my first  post to get the answer to your own question.

And I guess by "contribute"  you mean only say positive things about Hitchens.

[TepidT2O]

You can fuck off if you can't even read up to my first  post to get the answer to your own question.

Why not just leave this forum?

You have added nothing to the thread, know one thing about the guy, you add nothing.

Go away

[Yorkykopite]

What I said was perfectly logically.

Nothing you say seems to make much sense at all.

[chilongooner]

Nothing you say seems to make much sense at all.

Did you bother to even click on the links I provided?

Conceptual metaphor is a long established theory in linguistics and tha'ts what I applied to make that statement. If you don't understand the linguistic theory behind conceptual metonym and why I used that substitution then you aren't qualified to really respond.

[TepidT2O]

Did you bother to even click on the links I provided?

Conceptual metaphor is a long established theory in linguistics and tha'ts what I applied to make that statement. If you don't understand the linguistic theory behind conceptual metonym and why I used that substitution then you aren't qualified to really respond.

http://arsenal-mania.com/

[chilongooner]

Why not just leave this forum?

You have added nothing to the thread, know one thing about the guy, you add nothing.

Go away

Nice attitude.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you should "go away" and "fuck off"?

Also as I said in my first post I read his literary reviews for years and heard him on talk shows plenty of times so essentially, you are wrong.

[Conocinico]

Metonym, eh? I do not think that means what you think it means.

I know exactly what it means. I had to write a paper on it  for cog linguistics class in Uni lol.

  Ouch.

[armchair-fan]

I have no idea what a Metonym is, but I have enjoyed much of what I've read of Hitchens.  I enjoyed the stuff on 'Kissinger was a whore' just as much as the Mother Teresa stuff.  We know what he'd have thought of the knob heads shooting cartoonists in Paris.

[JMc1984]

A very fine writer but he got on like a bad ted. His support of the senseless slaughter in Iraq is unforgivable, along with his about face regarding enhanced interrogation - the water boarding (OMG - it really is torture lulz) stuff was cringe worthy. He must have been really desperate for booze money at that stage of his life. A stereotyped crack whore, sucking and fucking all and sundry for a hit has more dignity that he displayed.

Shameful c*nt of a man. A two bit hack with god given talent to waste - and mostly waste it he did

[Redman0151]

A very fine writer but he got on like a bad ted. His support of the senseless slaughter in Iraq is unforgivable, along with his about face regarding enhanced interrogation - the water boarding (OMG - it really is torture lulz) stuff was cringe worthy. He must have been really desperate for booze money at that stage of his life. A stereotyped crack whore, sucking and fucking all and sundry for a hit has more dignity that he displayed.

Shameful c*nt of a man. A two bit hack with god given talent to waste - and mostly waste it he did

I hope that was intentional 

[JMc1984]

I hope that was intentional 

LoL yes, it was 

[chilongooner]

I have no idea what a Metonym is,

People use them all the time and don't realize it.

The best definition is Lakoff's IMO ""to take one well-understood or easy-to-perceive aspect of something and use it to stand either for the thing as a whole or for some other aspect or part of it"

Examples are things like journalists using "The White House" when referring to the US President or his Administration.  "The White House believes Obamacare is a good thing."

I believe your journalists use Downing Street the same way to refer to the Prime Minister or the active administration.

Also, "Lend me your ears" in which case ears is substituted for listening attention.

Using the countries name in place of the government itself or the economy.  "The United States believes North Korea is guilty for the Sony Hacks" where the country is substituted for people like the FBI and Obama himself.

Here are some other examples from the Metaphors We Live By book which also points out how a lot of speech people use is metaphorical not literal (especially fans of sports teams - "upward and onward" "we go forward" etc are all metaphors).

OBJECT USED FOR USER
    The sax has the flu today.
    The buses are on strike.

CONTROLLER FOR CONTROLLED
    Napoleon lost at Waterloo.
    A Mercedes rear-ended me.

INSTITUTION FOR PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE
    Exxon has raised its prices again.
    You'll never get the university to agree to that.

THE PLACE FOR THE INSTITUTION
    The White House isn't saying anything.
    Wall Street is in a panic.

THE PLACE FOR THE EVENT
    Remember the Alamo.
    Watergate changed our politics.

[Card Cheat]

OBJECT USED FOR USER
    The sax has the flu today.
    The buses are on strike.

CONTROLLER FOR CONTROLLED
    Napoleon lost at Waterloo.
    A Mercedes rear-ended me.

INSTITUTION FOR PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE
    Exxon has raised its prices again.
    You'll never get the university to agree to that.

THE PLACE FOR THE INSTITUTION
    The White House isn't saying anything.
    Wall Street is in a panic.

THE PLACE FOR THE EVENT
    Remember the Alamo.
    Watergate changed our politics.

It's that Tim Vine sketch where he has a problem with his emphasis.

[Yorkykopite]

A very fine writer but he got on like a bad ted. His support of the senseless slaughter in Iraq is unforgivable, along with his about face regarding enhanced interrogation - the water boarding (OMG - it really is torture lulz) stuff was cringe worthy. He must have been really desperate for booze money at that stage of his life. A stereotyped crack whore, sucking and fucking all and sundry for a hit has more dignity that he displayed.

Shameful c*nt of a man. A two bit hack with god given talent to waste - and mostly waste it he did

What a contemptible post.

[chilongooner]

What a contemptible post.

During that time period (Iraqi war) Hitchens got a lot of people calling him out (especially at the liberal University I was at) for his absolutely poor and condescending arguments supporting the Iraqi invasion.  Its a valid criticism.

Just because someone might write some book on one topic that resonates with you doesn't mean that person cannot also write a some really stupid nonsense on a different topic.