Author Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.  (Read 34335 times)

Offline Fordy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2009, 12:34:46 am »
Torres = best striker/forward in the world and Messi = best winger in the world there is room for both

its very important because they do actually play different positions

and Kuyt up top on his own is suicide - also what was sky sports on about him leaving they said that much and i never heard anything else

Torres is the best out and out forward. Messi isnt a winger he plays wide attacking forward but as you say they is room for both.

As for the Kuyt thing I think its to do if Heskey arrives then Kuyt will be sold. Thats what the telegraph are reporting.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2009, 12:35:32 am »
"You can't then, not in this season's Premier League, expect that CL philosophy to be completely disregarded when you play a tricky 5.30pm game against Stoke. "

Its only tricky when you think its tricky. Its only tricky when you dont have confidence in your players to do the job.

Does Rafa have the confidence in his players?   You have to ask him that....

Chelsea and Man U were "trickier" - Rafa was a genius after those results.
The players did the job in those games. They didn't against Stoke.


Offline coffeehead

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2009, 12:41:06 am »
That's all very well - but you can't change the philosophy of the manager. If you want Rafa to take on board this idea then you don't win European Cups. Rafa has a plan and it doesn't involve going for it big time if there is a risk of losing. You either accept that or you don't.

You can't pick and choose between the league and the CL. If he goes all out for it and we lose the odd game you mention, that could work in the league. But you can't expect the team, backroom staff and all to have that same idea when the big games come up in the CL.

Example, say we're drawing 0-0 against Real Madrid in the last 10 minutes in the first leg, do you want us to take a defender off and play with 3/4 strikers? Or do you want to keep the draw for Anfield? At that stage of the game, of course we'd all take the 0-0 draw - a great result. The preparation and planning that goes into that scenario is put in place weeks before kick off. And, usually with Rafa - it works a treat.

You can't then, not in this season's Premier League, expect that CL philosophy to be completely disregarded when you play a tricky 5.30pm game against Stoke.

As I say, Rafa has a plan - and you can't pick and choose when he's a tactical genius or not just because we don't win.
Surely a top manger can plan differently for league games, which can result in a draw and cup ties which HAVE to have an eventual winner. Rafa's 'control' philosophy works brilliantly in cup games because you can control it until the very end and still have the chance to win via penalties - and that's exactly what we've done in several of our recent highest profile European successes and arguably the 2006 Cup Final.

In the league, however, focussing so much on control and trying to 'not lose' often only ends up in two dropped points.

Offline Redshadow77

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2009, 12:41:58 am »
Oh I get it Coffehead, I get it very well indeed - It's obviously you that didn't understand what I meant though; When I said United WILL drop points and Torres WILL come back to form that should of told you what I meant but as it didn't, here goes....

Remember in September, October and to some extent November when THEY dropped points like confetti and WE played well - well, for now, the situations are reversed - but at some point we WILL click back into gear - remember last season - overdrive until Dec', torpor/sleep until Feb' and then back into overdrive again? We'll do the 'back into overdrive part soon - poss' Monday and remember what happened to Bolton on Boxing Day when Chelsea nicked our top spot for 2 hours? We blew them off the park - how I would LOVE that v the Bitters - and lest you forget, Torres 15 + goals (i'm sure he'll get that many or more without injury from now into May) WILL thus come into equation.  Do that and as long as we beat them (which we're more than capable of doing - just take THEIR blueprint from the Anfield games v them in 2004/2005, 2006/2007 and 2007/2008 all of which they won 0 - 1 whilst playing cowardly/negatively/without a shred of ambition (take your pick) to Old Trafford and do it to them) OR others hold them up with stupid draws (and they WILL, have you seen their away form this season - shocking and now they've lost Rooney, their most productive forward for a  while AND Ferdinand their best defender) then we WILL remain ahead of them, one way or another. 

That is what I meant.  So there's still every reason to be confident rather than on the verge of throwing in the white towel and calling for the ref' as you seem to be advocating - Trust Rafa', he knows EXACTLY what he's doing, he's done this before remember? And I doubt you'll moan in May if his tactics have the SAME result as they did with Valencia - I think he'd be hailed as a genius IF he pulls it off and rightly so.......................................
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Offline coffeehead

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2009, 12:43:45 am »
they have played 19 and got 41 points thats halfway less than last season im sure

so they didnt equal it and impossible for them to do that since we are past that point

Sorry I'm an idiot; I meant after 21 games, which is where we currently stand. We got 39 points after 21 games last seaosn and are on 46 this season. Man U are on course to get 47, 1 point less than last year's 48

Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2009, 12:46:20 am »
Chelsea and Man U were "trickier" - Rafa was a genius after those results.
The players did the job in those games. They didn't against Stoke.


Mancs and Chelsea aint Stoke....
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Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2009, 12:48:17 am »
Surely a top manger can plan differently for league games, which can result in a draw and cup ties which HAVE to have an eventual winner. Rafa's 'control' philosophy works brilliantly in cup games because you can control it until the very end and still have the chance to win via penalties - and that's exactly what we've done in several of our recent highest profile European successes and arguably the 2006 Cup Final.

In the league, however, focussing so much on control and trying to 'not lose' often only ends up in two dropped points.

Right on... too much control stifles creativity....only saving grace is Torres' speed when creativty is abscent
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Offline gadair

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2009, 12:50:49 am »
Chelsea and Man U were "trickier" - Rafa was a genius after those results.
The players did the job in those games. They didn't against Stoke.


i am a big critic ova kuyt but ile give him his due against the mancs we couldnt ove asked for more in closing people
down and winning the ball even though i cant stand him in the team ide still play him against the better teams but not up front on his own

Offline Redshadow77

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2009, 12:50:54 am »
Rafa 6 - 19, I think you have a good point in 2 ways there, I think this season - our BEST performances (like Chelsea away, Utd at Home and Bolton at Home) have come when WE are looking to reclaim Top Spot after being pushed to second rather than when we try to hold onto Top Spot (ala Hull and Portsmouth at Home, Saturdays Debacle) and thus your argument about us being better under Rafa' whilst taking out frontal competitors from behind has PLENTY of validity.

You also have a point about him timing the use of our squad so that injuries and suspensions grind others down and allow us the space to maneouvre - this is demonstrated by how easily our FULL team (minus Torres and Skrtel) has passed Arsenal and Chelsea who have been riven by injuries thus far and how despite United's recent charge - their injuries are mounting up alarmingly for them with Rooney, Evra, Ferdinand and Hargreaves all certain to miss out next Saturday and Tevez carrying a knock their so called 'superior squad' is being tested to the limit - I hope it's in the same state come March 14th as if it is and we have our full team operating in a groove by then - maybe we can start to redress the balance of all their recent Anfield Victories over there and in the process hole their Title Bid under the waterline - I certainly hope so - it would be poetic justice if we did that and destroyed Fergies dream of making them Britain's most successful club ever on their own ground with us being their most hated rivals and all and wouldn't Fergie just LOVE that?..................................
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Offline Bangers N Masch

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2009, 12:59:46 am »


So are we letting number 19 slip through our fingers because Rafa can’t let his team of the leash? I fear we may be. Now I love the man. I think he’s a great manager and this isn’t having a pop at him or his tactics. He's doing a good job under difficult circumstances and I'd have settled for finishing 2nd close behind the leaders at the start of the season. But now we have a REAL chance to win it. I know having watched Liverpool sides since the early seventies that you need to go for teams at times to win games and to win leagues and I just don’t see us doing that enough, unless we are losing. We’ve done it when we absolutely have to. City away, two nil down at half time. Hull at home, two nil down, Boro at home, one nil down with 10 minutes to go, Wigan at home, twice behind. Istan bleeding bul !!!!!! So why don’t we do it when we are drawing? Because it’s important to win… but more important not to lose?



this is what makes me angry. Those two matches against Man City and Wigan were absolutely quality. Rafa put Riera and Pennant wing backs and El Zhar and Benayoun wingers... now that's what you call attacking. But since then (and lets be honest, the comebacks in those two matches were excellent and undoubtedly a result of our constant pressure, something which those mancs down the road are masters at :/), its stopped. Probably because we haven't really gone a goal down since. But that shouldn't make a difference. A draw at home to anyone isn't good enough, and a draw away to relegation fodder isn't good enough. We need wins. Wins will bring the title home.
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Offline LFCfan4Life

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2009, 01:02:23 am »
Sorry I'm an idiot; I meant after 21 games, which is where we currently stand. We got 39 points after 21 games last seaosn and are on 46 this season. Man U are on course to get 47, 1 point less than last year's 48

ah if they got 48 in their first 21(2.285 p/g) then they got 39 in the next 17(2.294)p/g while they went to the last game of the season fighting chelsea

we got 39(1.85p/g) and 37(2.176p/g) when from that arsenal game in april at least we chilled because we pulled away from everton and couldn't catch arsenal.

which means if we add remaining games from last season to this season from 21 we would get 83 and them 86 but that includes the loss to them which means by beating them we win the league

so im still not worried about them  ;D
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Offline heatseeker

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2009, 01:06:02 am »

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It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
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Last season we drew 7 games at home in the league, 13 in total. This season we have drawn 4 already at home and have also failed to score in 5 league games. That’s too many.

But we are top of the league ?
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Offline Football CRAZY

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2009, 01:07:59 am »
"You can't then, not in this season's Premier League, expect that CL philosophy to be completely disregarded when you play a tricky 5.30pm game against Stoke. "

Its only tricky when you think its tricky. Its only tricky when you dont have confidence in your players to do the job.

Does Rafa have the confidence in his players?   You have to ask him that....


I believe he doesn't have confidence in about 5 of the 'main' players. Hence his negative attacking approach to some games. Those being Keane, Riera, Benayoun, Dossena and Babel. If he could wave a wand and get rid of those players for ones he trusts I'm sure he would.

Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2009, 01:08:47 am »

But we are top of the league ?

For now....i hope we are still there come end May 09......
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Offline Redshadow77

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2009, 01:09:18 am »
Constant Pressure doesn't always work Bangers and Masch' remember our home games v West Ham and Stoke? We put on as much pressure v them as we did v Wigan and Man City but it just didn't go for us and we BATTERED Hull after going 2 down - don't know where you thought we hadn't gone a goal down since October from AND Arsenal after being 1 down but we couldn't win those games either - I think these results are for 2 reasons 1:) Rafa' sometimes selecting the wrong team and ladening them down with tactics when "just go and play them off the park" will be a fine instruction and 2:) Our inexperience since 1991 as front runners and thus our tendency to panic and lack patience when we don't score inside 20 minutes.   These things CAN be solved by remaining unbeaten and gaining the confidence from that to go on and batter teams/beat them as we did in 2005/2006 but paradoxically, the BIGGEST thing that will help us stay top is being confident enough to play as we do when a goal down ALL the time and the only way to be confident enough to DO that is to stay top and it's our only sporadic/occasional ability to turn it on like that which means we COULD lose top spot by Saturday night.  I wouldn't like Everton's chances if we DO though - remember what happened to Bolton on Boxing Day when Chelsea overtook us and the reaction it provoked?  Well if Everton put their head in the lions mouth at Anfield whether we're top or not, I hope we take it clean off.

We were the same in 1971 when we finished 3rd behind Derby and I think Arsenal on goal difference and had a LOT of draws due to a goal that would have won us the league that year being disallowed RIGHT at the end of our game away v Arsenal but then we learnt - After that? We didn't finish out of the top 2 until 1992.  Maybe this is a NEW learning process and prelude to more decades at the top like that, who knows? You just never know in football......................
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Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2009, 01:11:42 am »
I believe he doesn't have confidence in about 5 of the 'main' players. Hence his negative attacking approach to some games. Those being Keane, Riera, Benayoun, Dossena and Babel. If he could wave a wand and get rid of those players for ones he trusts I'm sure he would.


i dread if he thinks that! Those are all his players!
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Offline heatseeker

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2009, 01:12:05 am »
I believe he doesn't have confidence in about 5 of the 'main' players. Hence his negative attacking approach to some games. Those being Keane, Riera, Benayoun, Dossena and Babel. If he could wave a wand and get rid of those players for ones he trusts I'm sure he would.


Rafa wants rid  of Keane, Riera ,Bennayoun,Dossena & Babel ....i can't stop laughing 
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Offline coffeehead

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2009, 01:28:00 am »
Oh I get it Coffehead, I get it very well indeed - It's obviously you that didn't understand what I meant though; When I said United WILL drop points and Torres WILL come back to form that should of told you what I meant but as it didn't, here goes....

Remember in September, October and to some extent November when THEY dropped points like confetti and WE played well - well, for now, the situations are reversed - but at some point we WILL click back into gear - remember last season - overdrive until Dec', torpor/sleep until Feb' and then back into overdrive again? We'll do the 'back into overdrive part soon - poss' Monday and remember what happened to Bolton on Boxing Day when Chelsea nicked our top spot for 2 hours? We blew them off the park - how I would LOVE that v the Bitters - and lest you forget, Torres 15 + goals (i'm sure he'll get that many or more without injury from now into May) WILL thus come into equation.  Do that and as long as we beat them (which we're more than capable of doing - just take THEIR blueprint from the Anfield games v them in 2004/2005, 2006/2007 and 2007/2008 all of which they won 0 - 1 whilst playing cowardly/negatively/without a shred of ambition (take your pick) to Old Trafford and do it to them) OR others hold them up with stupid draws (and they WILL, have you seen their away form this season - shocking and now they've lost Rooney, their most productive forward for a  while AND Ferdinand their best defender) then we WILL remain ahead of them, one way or another. 
I understand you; what you seem to be saying is they've had their blip and we've had our blip so what happens now?

last season we dropped 20 points from August to the end of the year and 18 points from January to the end of the season. So an almost identical  record for both halves of the season.

Assuming things go the same way, we dropped 15 points in the first nineteen games this season and 3 more since; with seventeen games left, therefore, we expect to drop around 10 more points (on the assumption we drop 2 less in the second nineteen, as last year).

Mancs dropped 15 points in the second 19 last time round so there's hope there. But that second batch did involve a loss to Chelsea. This time round they've already played Chelsea and have home games against us and Arsenal. But nevertheless the hope is there; on last year's form we CAN do it as long as the Mancs stick to last year's form ( or worse) as well.

Quote
That is what I meant.  So there's still every reason to be confident rather than on the verge of throwing in the white towel and calling for the ref' as you seem to be advocating
That's rather unfair; I'm not advocating that at all and it's irritating when people like yourself assume that anyone who isn't singing from the hymn sheet 100% is therefore at teh opposite extreme.

What I'm saying is that it would have been better for us to have our destiny in our own hands and also that we don't suddenly stop dropping points just because we're in the second half of the season, and nor do the Mancs drop too many.

I'm reasonably optimistic; It'll be a close one but with this year being the 20th anniversary of our closest league loss - on goals scored remember!, one can't help but fear another agonisingly close loss. Alternatively, of course, we might win the close race to exorcise the ghost of Michael Thomas :) 

Quote
- Trust Rafa', he knows EXACTLY what he's doing, he's done this before remember?
Not here he hasn't. Only time will tell how crucial that might be.

Quote
And I doubt you'll moan in May if his tactics have the SAME result as they did with Valencia - I think he'd be hailed as a genius IF he pulls it off and rightly so.......................................
Of course; and what's the point in saying this? Of course no-one's going to moan f we win the thing; what's happening now is discussion. Why are you so afraid of that?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 01:38:11 am by coffeehead »

Offline west_london_red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2009, 01:34:27 am »
Rafa wants rid  of Keane, Riera ,Bennayoun,Dossena & Babel ....i can't stop laughing 

Other then Reira and Bennayoun (only as a squad player) id have to agree that Rafa probably does regret buying them and if he could turn back time would not have brought them. Keane is prehaps boarder line but id say too early to judge, but Dossena and Babel have certainly dissapointed.
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Offline Indian Red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2009, 01:36:24 am »
What I dont get is why we have to win the league playing like the Mancs do? Havent we traditionally always had a different brand of football?
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2009, 01:43:40 am »
What I dont get is why we have to win the league playing like the Mancs do? Havent we traditionally always had a different brand of football?

Yes, but the Mancs win more games then we do so they must be doing something right. We'll never play like the Mancs as their game is a lot more attcking then ours and that isnt Rafa's philosophy, but I personally would like to see us attack more but that doesnt mean we have to play their brand of football.
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Offline Mackeroo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2009, 01:49:27 am »
Where is the urgency that we showed earlier in the season, namely Manchester City away and Wigan at home?

When we needed a result Rafa went balls out for it.

I'd prefer to win one and lose one than draw two. Sure a 10 game unbeaten run sounds good but it's fuck all use if 6 of them are draws. You get the same amount of points for 6 wins and 4 losses.

I've been patient up until now but it's getting very frustrating knowing that the league is there for the taking and we're not making the most of it.

I'm still a glass half full person though and reckon we could still win it. We need to show some more bollocks though.

I honestly think we can go the rest of the season unbeaten. Whether we can win enough (12/13 out of 17) remains to be seen.

Offline Indian Red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2009, 01:53:50 am »
Yes, but the Mancs win more games then we do so they must be doing something right. We'll never play like the Mancs as their game is a lot more attcking then ours and that isnt Rafa's philosophy, but I personally would like to see us attack more but that doesnt mean we have to play their brand of football.

And how do you propose we attack more?

I think Rafa is getting it right and building us to play pass and move like the old Liverpool sides. We move the ball pretty well and we do create chances. Sometimes they go in, sometimes they dont.

EDIT: As far as the Mancs brand of footy is concerned, yeah they are winning things and doing some things right. As far as I am concerned their football has always been about entertainment while ours goes much, much deeper than entertainment. Some people want us to play like them cause they are winning. The day we adopt their footballing philosophy will be the day that marks the end of the Liverpool way.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 01:57:08 am by Indian Red »
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Offline Redshadow77

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2009, 01:58:12 am »
Yes Coffeehead - you got what I said second time - we HAVE just about finished our blip as have they (and no I DON'T think ours will continue v Everton in either game).  As to the stuff about moaning and throwing in the towel - apologies for that.  I'd just finished arguing with a total weapon on another forum who thought that the Mancs going ONE whole point ahead come Saturday was effectively their coronation, I mean come on!!......In JANUARY!!! Anyway, I was VERY annoyed at that and when I read your original post, I thought you were giving up like he appeared to be, On further viewing, I see you weren't so apologies for my harshness.

Anyway, as I was saying - Look at last year, Arsenal were three or four points ahead by now last season and who won it? What I mean is if United rely on others slipping up (ala Chelsea AND Arsenal last year and Chelsea the year before that) What IF someone remains close enough to them to make it VERY uncomfortable for them /capitalise on their EVERY mistake and THEY then slip due to the other's closeness/refusal to fall away AND their own lack of puff as they've been playing flat out thus far just to catch up with us.  What would happen then if as Rafa' appears to want, matters pan out that way? We don't know do we as no-one's done that since 1992 and Leeds, but I'll bet IF they lost it in that fashion to us and they just might, it will be attributed to injuries, bad luck etc, ANYTHING but us.

And BTW you WERE wrong about him not doing it before - look at Valencia's 2001/2002 Title Winning Campaign ESPECIALLY the crucial months between Dec' 2001 and Feb' 2002 and you'll see EXACTLY what I meant by that remark.

Hope that explains my view a little better.
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Offline Shaded Red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2009, 01:59:03 am »
I think some of the posters on here are wrong - Rafa' DOES go for it against most of the smaller teams - but sometimes he's made a mess of the team selection with WHICH to go for it rather than telling the team to sit back.  I also think they're A:) Not giving enough credit to the opposition sides who ALL have internationals and/or decent managers nowadays and B:) Have some sort of vague pathetic fear that I've seen in far to many of our fans and which that purple faced beetroot who manages the Mancs would love us to keep in that they seem to believe that the Mancs are 1:) Infalliable and won't lose OR draw any more games this season and 2:) CAN'T be passed should they go top on Saturday which is stupid.  Since if we beat Everton as we should we'll go back top for at least 2 weeks and has anyone seen the luck they're having with injuries and suspensions at present - they've lost Evra and Ferdinand for a while and Rooney came off injured tonight AND Tevez took a hard knock - all these factors and their gung-ho play (along with the fact they currently seem happy with 1 - 0's v smaller sides) WILL rebound on them at some point in the season, just as Real Madrid's and Barcelona's did in Spain for Rafa' - we just have to be in a position to capitalise on that when it happens.

And if you don't believe me an example of what I said is that We put out a team full of internationals v Fulham yet minus Alonso in the middle and as a result were played off the park in midfield until Alonso came on, without him on Saturday we started well but maintained that control for only 20 mins whilst against West Ham, we paid for not playing Agger in that we kept having to cover Hyppia's lack of pace at the back and thus couldn't attack enough (I've always said the REAL reason we did badly last year in Oct - Jan 2008 was down to Agger's absence and thus no pace at the back).  Against Villa, we had to change our plans mid game after beginning to dominate when Torres walked off injured and  Against Hull we payed for not trusting Insua over Dossena and we played very well after 20 mins whilst against Stoke at home anyone who says we played badly is an idiot since we had about 35 shots with 20 odd of them on target, hit the woodwork several times, had great saves pulled off v us AND a goal disallowed - where's the lack of intent in that?

No I think people aren't patient enough - The league is a marathon and Rafa' knows this - He plays the long game and puts his foot/his teams foot down on the accelerator when he thinks it will benefit them most (remember under Houllier when we tried to attack in 2002/2003's VERY early games, started to draw 'easy' games and then went back to being defensive or under Evans where we'd bombard teams and lose to just one shot from them ALL season long AND where we often ran out of steam come April/May? AND where we were so insignificant in the league that we weren't considered worth the 'mind' games - What Rafa' did at the weekend HAS had an effect you know? Not only were the Manc's denied a goal, penalty and red card in their favour on Sunday, but they also SHOULD have had at least one Red Card in their favour tonight for the challenge that injured Tevez (from Steve Bennett of all referees)  but instead only got a yellow.  They didn't play particularly well either so maybe the injuries ARE affecting them now - they hardly attacked without Evra and O'Shea looked shaky which Rafa' should bear in mind for March. 

Anyway, due to the league lasting so long, Rafa' only puts the foot down when he thinks we NEED to hence the long spell of indifferent performances and draws last season before we burnt off Everton for fourth in the home stretch from February to May - if we do that again this season and beat the Mancs and Chelsea on the way and I've STILL seen nothing to suggest we can't double them BOTH then I'll be happy as it'll mean we've done enough and should win the league - because mark my words - A:) United WILL drop more points at some time OTHER than when they play us and our present position is MORE than good enough for us to jump on that B:) Torres has been missing since October and not as yet up to speed (by his own admission) since the Preston game (hope it comes v Everton who he seems to like playing) and C:) Did ANY of you/us REALLY think it would be that easy? They're not going to hand it to us - to replace the kings in footballing terms, you have to fight for and take it - if we want to commit regicide on them then no-one can do it but ourselves - certainly not Chelsea now.  I'll be happy if in May we can say "the king (Man U) is dead, long live the King (Liverpool)" as everyone will know what THAT means;  And call me stupid, but for some unknown, nagging reason rather like in 2005 in the CL after the Juve' first game, I really do think that this season we will................................

Great post and you put it better than I could. I think Rafa isn't scared of losing, but rather hates it and wants to win, but the team has not performed up to what he wants in some games. It may not be simply a case of team selection even (God knows how many times this season I've screamed for Babel to come on and see him do nothing when he comes on).

I think the players (whoever is selected) need to perform. As you say, the opposition this season is a lot stronger, with full internationals and a decent manager and playing decent football.

Looking at the way the Stoke (a) game went, I think we would have lost if we went for it. The players were not playing well, not passing well, slipping all over the field, and making mistakes. Even the normally reliable players were making mistakes (i.e. Pepe's pass to Stoke that gave them almost a 1-on-1...etc). And we were getting nothing from the ref and Stoke were getting freekicks when they fall over.

When the team had 73% possession in the 1st 20 mins and then lose control and start hoofing the ball, defending deeper...etc - this shows that they had stopped following instructions given. I think collectively, the players didn't reach the standards expected. Though to be fair, Stoke didn't let us play.


Offline Shaded Red

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2009, 02:26:17 am »
Where is the urgency that we showed earlier in the season, namely Manchester City away and Wigan at home?

When we needed a result Rafa went balls out for it.

I'd prefer to win one and lose one than draw two. Sure a 10 game unbeaten run sounds good but it's fuck all use if 6 of them are draws. You get the same amount of points for 6 wins and 4 losses.

I've been patient up until now but it's getting very frustrating knowing that the league is there for the taking and we're not making the most of it.

I'm still a glass half full person though and reckon we could still win it. We need to show some more bollocks though.

I honestly think we can go the rest of the season unbeaten. Whether we can win enough (12/13 out of 17) remains to be seen.

Against City away and Wigan at home, it was not urgency that won the game - it was composure. We passed intelligently looking for the opening. We haven't been composed enough in the last few draws, and i dunno if it's the anxiety from the stands filtering down.

When we played Wigan and City, would anyone say we will definitely be challenging for the title?

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2009, 02:35:02 am »
We didn't beat Stoke because we played shite.
It has nothing to do with being negative or fielding too many defensive or none attacking players.
We could barely string any passes together apart from the opening 20 mins.If you stop passing you reduce the chance of building any momentum and that's what we did.
I'm sick of hearing about how negative Rafa is against the 'lesser' teams, while the other top teams are ultra positive.
Man Utd have scored 9 goals away from home for fucksake. We scored more than half of that against Newcastle. I didn't hear anyone saying we were negative in that game.
In fact only 5 teams have scored fewer than Man Utd away. Portsmouth (7), Fulham (2), Boro (8 ), Stoke(6) and West Brom (4).
However we are cautious and negative while Man Utd are free flowing attacking monsters.
Strange then that only Chelsea with the best away record in the country have scored more goals than us.

Does anyone remember Chelsea away this season? Negative?

Why would Rafa suddenly adopt negative tactics against lesser teams but go for the throat against Chelsea away?
Could it possibly be that in those games there were other factors to be considered. Playing well might be a factor or is that too simplistic and not fit into the Skypundit viewpoint that has been portrayed several times this season about Rafa and his cautious approach.

As I've mentioned in another thread.....In our last away league game against Newcastle we fielded this team:

REINA

INSUA
AGGER
HYYPIA
CARRAGHER
BABEL
LUCAS
MASCHERANO
BENAYOUN
GERRARD
KUYT


Against Stoke it was this:

REINA
AURELIO
SKRTEL
HYYPIA
CARRAGHER

RIERA
LUCAS
MASCHERANO
BENAYOUN
GERRARD
KUYT


The only difference were the forced changes to Insua and Agger, and Riera being preferred to Babel.
So 2 forced changes to defenders and a more productive attacking player being preferred.
Did anyone think these were defensive before each game?

So what was the difference? I'd suggest that against Newcastle we actually played well....that was the top and bottom of it.
We passed the ball well, had good movement off the ball and subsequently created chances.

Against Stoke we never got started and never looked likely to.We didn't control the game for long periods and never gave ourselves a base to build from because our passing was so poor. There was little space to play in the final 3rd and we neded to keep the ball.We didn't and paid the price.

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« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 02:39:05 am by shanklyboy »
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2009, 02:45:15 am »
What I dont get is why we have to win the league playing like the Mancs do? Havent we traditionally always had a different brand of football?

If we had played like they have, apart from their last few games we'd really have something to complain about.
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Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2009, 02:51:41 am »
IMO that we are not so much less attacking BUT

a) that our attacking play is mostly displayed outside of the 6 yard box. Thats less effective. Without Torres, you hardly have the runners into the box from midfield bar the occasional burst from stevie and most times it presents serious threat to the opposition. So even if we get crosses into the box, its not met.

b) Our attacking play(approach) is highly predictable most times. Dont know if its due to Rafas highly organised approcah. This is very easy to defend aganist eg stoke game. The various times when the sudden burst by our midfielders into the box ends up with the goals or causes anxiety to the opposition. But this is very rare. Its always a alow build up with the usual players  in their normal positions. Predictability. Remeber the days of barnsey and Beardo? They just come from any where in the field. No special positions.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2009, 02:53:36 am »
Newcastle was blip.....i wish it was the same every game....  :)
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Offline Mackeroo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2009, 03:02:09 am »
Against City away and Wigan at home, it was not urgency that won the game - it was composure. We passed intelligently looking for the opening. We haven't been composed enough in the last few draws, and i dunno if it's the anxiety from the stands filtering down.

When we played Wigan and City, would anyone say we will definitely be challenging for the title?

We finished those games with 4 forwards and 2 defenders on the field, is that not urgency and going all out for the win???

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #111 on: January 15, 2009, 03:06:14 am »
shanklyboy -

What you're saying are indeed facts but I think you're barking at the wrong tree.
I think the complaints towards Rafa are not the starting line-ups or the players having a shit game, it's more about him seeing we're not playing well and likely to end with another draw but not doing enough to change that during the game. We only seem to do that when we're behind and the other team is with a man less (Wigan, Man City).
If there's anything these games should've tought us (and Rafa) is that even if you played shit for most of the game you can still change that by adding (not replacing) more attacking options.
We haven't done that in the draws against the likes of Stoke.
When the difference between a draw and a loss is 1 point and the difference between a draw and a win is 2 points why should we be happy with a point? why are we only fighting for a win when we're losing and not when we're drawing?

Offline keyo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2009, 03:08:05 am »
Facts are facts, if we'd gone for broke in both Stoke (for example) games and won one and lost the other, we'd have another point now. Do that again for Fulham and Hull... West Ham and Villa... You get the picture. Draws are what will cost us the title, just as they cost us getting anywhere near last season.

and of course, that is exactly what would have happened isn't it?  we went for broke against stoke at home.....what we didn't do was score despite being all over them for 90 minutes..... you are ignoring poor performances, good performances by the opposition and not finishing off chances

we do need more urgency - not panic and throwing men forward regardless - but we need to play with more pace/tempo and increase it at the right times....players do that, and they need to be encouraged to do it during the game (rafa can bring on players to change the personnel, and issue instructions, but he cannot increase the urgency with which they play)

you are assuming that if we have had gone gung-ho in those games we would have won....well, go gung-ho when you play shit and you could well wind up with a loss........and whatever you say in comparison to the mancs they do not "gamble" on a win, they play to their strengths, which is having a better attack than the opposition and trying to overwhelm them......they still come unstuck where they cannot control the possession (as was the case when they played at stoke before the right back got sent off)
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Offline Mackeroo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2009, 03:13:34 am »
shanklyboy -

What you're saying are indeed facts but I think you're barking at the wrong tree.
I think the complaints towards Rafa are not the starting line-ups or the players having a shit game, it's more about him seeing we're not playing well and likely to end with another draw but not doing enough to change that during the game.

That's my only gripe with Rafa anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm as pro-Rafa as the next man but sometimes I feel he could do more to try and change the course of the game when we're clearly not playing well. Sometimes he uses subs far too late for them to have any chance of influencing the game.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2009, 03:26:31 am »
shanklyboy -

If there's anything these games should've tought us (and Rafa) is that even if you played shit for most of the game you can still change that by adding (not replacing) more attacking options.

So at 3 goals down we should have replaced Finnan by an attacking player instead of defensive Didi?

It is never a guarantee that putting an attacking player for a defensive one will get ye goals. Another one is putting Lucas on for StevieG against the mongrels last year. By your logic we should never have won that game.
There is a lot of thought that goes into the substitutions, stuff we have no idea about. Best leave it to the pros methinks.
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Offline JanMolby05

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2009, 04:07:09 am »
The only difference were the forced changes to Insua and Agger, and Riera being preferred to Babel.
So 2 forced changes to defenders and a more productive attacking player being preferred.
Did anyone think these were defensive before each game?

So what was the difference? I'd suggest that against Newcastle we actually played well....that was the top and bottom of it.
We passed the ball well, had good movement off the ball and subsequently created chances.

Against Stoke we never got started and never looked likely to.We didn't control the game for long periods and never gave ourselves a base to build from because our passing was so poor. There was little space to play in the final 3rd and we neded to keep the ball.We didn't and paid the price.

You can change all the peronnell you like but if they don't do the basics you will struggle.
shanklyboy, you fail to give the opposition any credit at all. We twatted Newcastle because they played like a pub team. They were all over the place. Stoke on the other hand played as a well organised narrow defensive unit, they knew exactly how to play against us - like most of the teams that have taken points off us this year. We are very easy to stifle, our own worst enemy I suppose

and that for me still remains out Achilles heel this season.
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Offline SingaRed

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2009, 04:52:59 am »
First of all drawing with Villa away wasnt a bad result and shouldnt be mentioned when looking at the dissapointing draws.

The main problem I see is that we dont have enough attackers in the team. Our normal formation has Riera, Torres or Keane, Gerrard and Kuyt as 4 attacking players with all the other players very rarely chipping in with a goal or a set up. Our left & right backs very rarely set up goals or are involved in their build ups, and Aggar and Carra hardly every chip in when you compare them to the likes of Vidic or Ferdinand. The biggest culprit in this is probably Xabi. Not knocking him one bit and hes having a good season, but he needs to get forward more. A player of his ability should be scoring 10 goals a season in my opinion.

The other area where we need to improve to turn these draws into wins is set pieces, especially corners. How many times do you see 0-0 become 1-0 after someone heads in a corner or scramble it over the line. When were playing at home against the smaller teams we usually have loads of corners, but we're virtually toothless when it comes to scoring. Too many corners are played short and dont even reach the box.
thanks for qouting me.
The second is that we travel to Fergusons office before the season start and let him set up everything. So we can take it from there.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2009, 04:59:46 am »
Just a point apropos the relative attacking merit/intent/tactics of us and the mancs

Liverpool P21 W13 D7 L1 F35 A13 GD22 PTS46
Manchester United P20 W13 D5 L2 F33 A10 GD23 PTS44

So, with one game in had they have won the same amount of games, scored 2 less goals and conceded 3 less.  Hardly a massive difference that exposes the "flaws of our approach" i would suggest.

And in terms of difficulty of games, in the results thread it shows that in matches that we have both played they are only marginally ahead again.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2009, 05:01:56 am »
That's my only gripe with Rafa anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm as pro-Rafa as the next man but sometimes I feel he could do more to try and change the course of the game when we're clearly not playing well. Sometimes he uses subs far too late for them to have any chance of influencing the game.
i totally agree with u. y can he change the team at half time when he sees the team playing like shit?
The second is that we travel to Fergusons office before the season start and let him set up everything. So we can take it from there.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2009, 05:02:38 am »
shanklyboy -

What you're saying are indeed facts but I think you're barking at the wrong tree.
I think the complaints towards Rafa are not the starting line-ups or the players having a shit game, it's more about him seeing we're not playing well and likely to end with another draw but not doing enough to change that during the game. We only seem to do that when we're behind and the other team is with a man less (Wigan, Man City).
If there's anything these games should've tought us (and Rafa) is that even if you played shit for most of the game you can still change that by adding (not replacing) more attacking options.
We haven't done that in the draws against the likes of Stoke.
When the difference between a draw and a loss is 1 point and the difference between a draw and a win is 2 points why should we be happy with a point? why are we only fighting for a win when we're losing and not when we're drawing?

Name one player on our bench with the ability to come in and unlock Stoke's defense.  Babel can on a good day, problem is he hasn't had one in a while, El Zhar might have added something but if they could outmuscle Babel I don't think El Zhar would have gotten any joy either.  Keane needs space to operate and Stoke simply clogged all the attacking channels.  We don't have any options so what can Rafa do?
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