Author Topic: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success  (Read 32071 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Is anyone else still pinching themselves? Has it sunk in yet? Winning the Champions League was supposed to be the culmination of Rafa's efforts over a number of seasons: it should have been the dessert, not the starter. 

   Not that I am complaining at its speedy arrival. We can but hope that it's just the start of a several five-course meals . . .

   Getting into next season's Champions League –– in terms of Uefa and the FA getting their acts together –– was something many offered as a 'mock' sacrifice if it meant winning it this year. A pact was made whereby large numbers of fans, myself included, said "sod defending it, I just want to win it".

   But now we've won it, it feels different.

   We didn't just win the Champions League –– it was wrested from the jaws of defeat; in fact, it was closer to the digestive tract of defeat. It arrived as a result of Herculean effort. It came against all odds (well, odds of 360-1 at least). The rules shouldn't be changed simply because of the circumstances of the win –– good win, bad win, a win is still a win –– but the moral right to defend it seems stronger.

   By winning the tournament, Liverpool confirmed that they are once again a major force –– but if not allowed to defend the trophy, there is a danger of Rafa not being able to attract the players he wants, and momentum will be lost. Not permanently lost, because let's face it, if this manager can achieve so much in the face of adversity then he can do so without a big helping hand from the faceless, brainless bureaucrats. But the progress of the club will be slightly slowed by the antics of Uefa and the FA, in not being able to find a place for Liverpool.

   When teams ranked as underdogs do well in the Champions League, they are usually broken-up within months –– such as Ajax in the mid-'90s, and both Monaco and Porto from last season's final, where all the best players were quickly sold. These teams burn brightly for one season, and then quickly fade away.

   In Liverpool's case, the club is too big and strong to ward off rich poachers. Whatever European competition the club is entered into, the rebuilding will be at the behest of Rafa, not against his wishes. With the exception of Steven Gerrard, who has yet to sign a new deal (but hopefully now will), anyone leaving this summer will because they were shown the door.

   Having put his stamp on the club in just one season, the manager should be afforded the utmost trust.

   If Rafa wants to keep Gerrard, rather than cash in, we should want to keep Gerrard. It's as simple as that. No arguments about whether the money would be better than a player whose effectiveness has been occasionally called into question. If we are denied our rightful place in the top competition, then Gerrard may think twice –– and that's the worry: Rafa losing anyone he feels is essential to his plan. However, I don't see any of our other heroes asking to leave: only those whose place in the side is not guaranteed, and whom Rafa doesn't rate.

   By the same token, if Rafa wants Peter Crouch (if the reported interest is true), we should want Peter Crouch. Whatever we think about him as an individual shouldn't count –– after all, no player will be signed to play on his own, one against eleven. It's the team that matters. Rafa knows why he would want a player of that ilk: and as he picks the team, that's fine by me.
   
   Someone like Crouch won't care if he's in the Champions League or not, of course. He's probably not in the top 100 strikers in world football, let alone the top ten. But even the tallest defenders can find him 'unplayable' at times –– as did ours at St Marys earlier in the season. While Rafa will also want to add some top class international players over the summer, I'd be happy to see him add some effective 'alternatives', especially for the Premiership. Crouch wouldn't arrive to be first choice, he would be purchased to give a different option. With the quickest striker in the league (Cissé), it would offer a nice counterpoint to have the tallest.

   It's about possessing a solution to every problem. You need a collection of talents: the best passers, the hardest workers, the most committed, and so on. If you can call upon the tallest and the fastest as well, it can only add to your effectiveness.

   The problem, however, it that the top continental players –– someone like Joaquin in Spain –– are the ones we're now in danger of losing out on, due to the FA's total incompetence. As dumb as Uefa are for not having a rule that categorically states the Champions of Europe must be guaranteed the right to defend their title, the rule did have some leeway –– and it is the FA who chose Everton over Liverpool. From what I can tell, it was simply because most people haven't read the rule book.

   The FA, like Everton, spoke along the lines of "everyone knew at the start of the season that 4th would get you a place in the Champions League". The true rule was that this would be the case unless the winners of the tournament finished 5th or below in their domestic league, if talking about one of the highest-ranking leagues. What everyone "knew" was incorrect. Everyone assumed, it would be truthful to say.

   In March, when this scenario was first on the cards, the FA should have followed the precedent set by Spain in 2000, and said "4th qualifies, unless Liverpool win the tournament". Winners always count as more important. They didn't.

   Liverpool have given English football a massive shot in the arm. Last week's heroics has given the Premiership added credibility, and will make our game even more attractive to the world, given the amazing character and spirit on display in Istanbul: from both players and fans. It has brought the premier club trophy back to England for only the second time in 21 years –– since Liverpool used to regularly win it, in fact.

   In return, the FA has given Liverpool a massive kick in the balls. To call the FA morons would be too kind to morons.

   Liverpool are the champions of Europe. The champions of Europe, dammit!

   Everton are the champions of nothing, and frankly, not even within a country mile of being the champions of anything.
   
   Had Everton, for example, finished just three points behind Chelsea in 4th place, and Liverpool remained 37 points adrift of top spot, it would be far harder to argue the case against the Toffees' inclusion –– although, as the champions of Europe, Liverpool should still have earned the right to usurp Everton. As it stands, a team who were 34 points worse their domestic champions are being given more reward than the champions of Europe.

    Were the situation reversed (not that Everton are ever likely to win the European Cup), I would argue the same: the champions of Europe trumps 4th place in the league. Simple. I may be Red, but I am no hypocrite. No 4th place team should ever enter the Champions League at the expense of real champions, and no champions are more worthy than the champions of Europe. When did football lose it's sense of logic and fairness?

   Fifty years of the European Cup, and the most remarkable victory ever seen in a final: and the FA, by inexplicably pinning their colours to Everton's mast a month ago, have chosen mediocrity over utter brilliance. For that, the FA should hang their heads in shame (assuming they can work out how to remove those very heads from their own arses).

   One thing I will say is this: if Liverpool are in the Uefa Cup next season, then the Reds will finish in the top three of the Premiership, and come within at least ten points of the title. Everton, even though they appear to be spending fairly intelligently, will be mid-table at best. Europe will take it out of them –– assuming they make it through the qualifiers.

   Excluding Liverpool may not be fair, but let's not be bitter about it. As we learned this season: he who laughs last laughs the longest. Everton may have their small victory; Liverpool have their fifth enormous one: the very best of all.

© Paul Tomkins 2005

Raise a glass –– "Golden Past, Red Future" is finished![/i]

It took a few days longer than planned –– the anticipated 2,000 words on the final ended up closer to 10,000! (The book is just under 200 pages, in case anyone is worried about a book the size of a house brick.)
 
Following an email I received, I would just like to clarify that this is not merely a reworking of my internet articles, but an entirely separate project. Some small sections have been duplicated from the internet pieces, but over 90% of the book is original and not seen before.

Hopefully the book will do justice to what has been a truly remarkable season and a totally inspiring manager.

Available to order from www.paultomkins.com

 :wave

Offline murgaz

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 472
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #1 on: June 2, 2005, 08:31:07 pm »
The FA are a joke not least because they were hoping we wouldn't win the trophy because that would get them out of making a decision. I get the feeling UEFA will be more aware of sponsors, TV ratings and general positive feelings about us and find a way in. And could someone mention to all the beauts who say 'you can't change a rule mid-way through a season' that the season's over now.

Offline Redlady

  • Fantasy Football Queen
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,555
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #2 on: June 2, 2005, 08:37:11 pm »
Good read. The FA have really been irritating me this past week. Their spokesman smugly says on TV every chance he gets that they are doing all they can for us, and people who don't know all the facts genuinely think they are and are taken in by them. It's easy to blame UEFA, and I suppose our best chance of being in the CL next year does lie with them now, but the FA seem to be totally ignoring the fact they ever had a say in it, and that a precedent was made with Spain and Real. To think, if only we'd won, or even drawn, instead of had a narrow loss in the away derby then all this could have been avoided.

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

  • blames English football
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,656
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #3 on: June 2, 2005, 08:58:47 pm »
don't agree with that at all

while they might be shite, Everton are a far more worthy entrant to the competition than TNS, Glentoran, Cobh Ramblers, Young Boys Differdange, ABCD Reykjavik, Valletta Schmalletta, Ammonia Nicosia, I hate Maccabis etc etc

these clay duck shoot teams wouldn't even make it to the Final of the Leyland DAF trophy or whatever it's called these days

no easy games in Europe my Royle arse

UEFA are just another perfect shitey microcosm of the whole shitey European project, with some nomark doctor (wow, he's got a fucking degree, swoon) from the Maltese FA giving it the biggun on what 5 times winners Liverpool can and can't do...

lets have a look at the UEFA Champions League shall we...

it's called the Union of European Football Associations, but has Israel in it, a country that isn't even in Europe, because, well they say so...

it's called the Champions League yet has teams from 2nd 3rd and yes 4th place from a select handful of countries

it's called a League yet it is plain and simply a Cup competition with a bit of a round robin thing stuck in early doors

so it's not properly European, it's not for the Champions, and it's not even a fucking league either

it's just a monstrous money-making lie run by fuckwits

and these bureaucratic penpushin' jokers have the cheek to sit there and go on about their stupid shitarsin' rules...

Offline StuartC

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #4 on: June 2, 2005, 09:01:36 pm »
Nice Stuff Paul.

The FA would appear to have some serious conflicts of interest that are not being properly illuminated to everybody. There's another post on here showing how much Arsenal stood to lose of the share of £20m if we were 1 of the 4 teams rather than Everton.

David Dein at Arsenal/FA has a serious conflict of interest in this, and the same appears to ring true right through the whole of their so-called decision making structure.

Brian Barwick as the new head of the FA has got his work cut out sorting them out, and there's a top lawlord on their case now doing a full investigation of their whole management structure. Unfortunately, it'll be like turkeys voting for Christmas for them to come up with any useful recommendations that improve the situation and move them out of the dark ages.

If we don't end up in CL next year, will sponsors, media and fans start to view the governing bodies of this sport in the same light as they do Formula "Mr. Ecclestone's cash machine" 1?
I was there....

Offline Mivi

  • Strawberry-flavoured Jayne Torvill ; 3,000,000 not out
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,176
  • By the way..........It's been emotional.
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #5 on: June 2, 2005, 09:03:19 pm »

it's just a monstrous money-making lie run by fuckwits


That's exactly why we'll be in it next year.
It's cause he loks like a badger. Women fucking love badgers.

Offline hooded claw

  • Foiled by the Anthill Mob
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,413
    • The Plate Licked Clean
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #6 on: June 2, 2005, 09:04:04 pm »
That's exactly why we'll be in it next year.

 :missus You cynic  ;D

Offline StuartC

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
I was there....

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

  • blames English football
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,656
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #8 on: June 2, 2005, 09:07:05 pm »
lets hope so Miv

as for Dein, I wrote a piece years back maybe for .tv about his conflict of interests

plus ca change...

funny how absolutely nothing ever happened to Arsenal when Carra got coined wasn't it, and how their disciplinary record which would shame the Bangkok Hilton never results in anything other than Wenger being hauled before a panel to trot out his 'I never saw any of it' bilge

Offline Tiger Tony

  • Ginger knob who used to be barred from the Crows Nest. Will scweam and scweam and scweam if he doesn't get a Cardiff ticket. Aluminium. Thinks he's clever.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,381
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #9 on: June 2, 2005, 09:07:50 pm »
Another top read Paul

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,448
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #10 on: June 2, 2005, 09:08:39 pm »
To be honest, if we are not in in next year, I wouldn't care. The PL is the Holy Grail now, to get the respect we are due. Being in the CL this year is a money matter not an honour matter, as far as I can see
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Aremm

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
  • Come On You Mighty Reds
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #11 on: June 2, 2005, 09:14:58 pm »
The one thing I can't get over, and by that I mean I am simply aghast at and still speechless at, is the fact that last season a representative of the FA stated that if Arsenal or Chelsea were to win the CL and finish outside the top 4, then 4th place would drop into the UEFA Cup.

Until I read that, I was philosophical about the situation, I was even prepared to ignore the precedent set by the Spanish FA. But since then I have felt a great sense of injustice.

Shocking.
I hope the clubs lawyers follow it up, whatever happens.



Offline DK

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,281
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #12 on: June 2, 2005, 09:16:40 pm »
It surprises me how the FA have managed to deflect most of the blame onto UEFA and continue to do so.  Their gamble that Liverpool would fall prior to the final has not eventuated and they should have egg on their face.

Being in the CL this year is a money matter not an honour matter, as far as I can see

If we were any other club than Liverpool I would agree. 

Offline StuartC

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #13 on: June 2, 2005, 09:19:56 pm »
To be honest, if we are not in in next year, I wouldn't care. The PL is the Holy Grail now, to get the respect we are due. Being in the CL this year is a money matter not an honour matter, as far as I can see

I see your point, but the problem is
1) less cash, and that's essential to enable Rafa in building a PL winning team
2) less Kudos, which helps to bring in the big name players. Although, if they only want to play for us because it's the CL, then we don't want them. You could argue we've achieved the kudos by winning it the way we did, but to then not be defending it is a bit of a slap in the face.

I think the 4 team rule is just to ensure no one league gets too large a share of the cash. This is a money generating and distribution competition, to appease the big clubs who discussed a European Super League, and keep all the FAs sweet by giving them a slice of the cake.

But.....

I believe that if money is what talks, then UEFA will find a way, because the pressure from TV companies and sponsors will be such that it would damage the potential revenues not to have the cup holders in the competition. Especially ones who won it in such a dramatic and historic fashion!

ITV1 reported audiences of nearly 14 million for their coverage last week. They'll be wanting some more of that, thank you.

Oh, and Brian Barwick, current top dog at the FA and former head of sport at ITV, will be very conscious of this...

It's just a bugger he's a scouser and has honourably declared an interest!
I was there....

Online markmywords

  • Was 2/10. Now 0.5/10. Must try much harder not to make people a little sick in their mouth.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,334
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #14 on: June 2, 2005, 09:23:26 pm »
I think the FA's ultimate plan was to have 5 english teams in the CL.  The only way that could happen was to give everton the 4th place, hope LFC win and fight a strong campaign for LFC(which they are likely to win).

If they had given the 4th CL spot to LFC, they would be no chance of fighting a campaign to get little Everton in the CL for next year.

Offline ThingOnASpring

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,255
  • Young man! There's no need to feel down.
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #15 on: June 2, 2005, 09:24:57 pm »
NOt only are the FA lying in  trying to smugly say they are doing everything they can, they didn't bother to officially raise the point in the last big meeting, when the opportunity arose, prefering 'informal' arguments. If it is not said at the big meetings, it does not get debated, it does not get in the minutes, it stays off the agenda, and it gets forgotten.
Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.

Offline Throxenby

  • Has a date with Fat Frank sometime in 2007
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,419
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #16 on: June 2, 2005, 09:25:53 pm »
The one thing I can't get over, and by that I mean I am simply aghast at and still speechless at, is the fact that last season a representative of the FA stated that if Arsenal or Chelsea were to win the CL and finish outside the top 4, then 4th place would drop into the UEFA Cup.

Until I read that, I was philosophical about the situation, I was even prepared to ignore the precedent set by the Spanish FA. But since then I have felt a great sense of injustice.

Shocking.
I hope the clubs lawyers follow it up, whatever happens.



this is the part that confuses me
God bless the skywashed for they know not what they do.

Offline Oscar3

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 892
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #17 on: June 2, 2005, 09:26:51 pm »
I totally agree with this.I feel it is now too late to throw Everton out and if they were the repercussions could be disastrous for the city,but as Paul says the Fa should have said (When nobody believed it would happen) that IF Liverpool won the competition then they would go in ahead of fourth place. Everton will definately decrease Englands standing in European competition.We will all suffer for their mediocricity. It has been well documented that we actually help earn Englands 4th place with our Uefa cup Victory and Q.F place in the C.L. Now we are being pushed out.Its a disgrace. I would definately back pulling out of Monaco and Japan and even boycott the Uefa cup.As said our league form would be much better.Basically stick two fingers up to the Fa and Uefa and say "Well we are going to look after number 1 and make sure we qualify for next season".
sons of men who stand like gods

Offline satmann

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
  • YNWA
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #18 on: June 2, 2005, 09:31:19 pm »
Brilliant article!!!. One thing though, why would Gerrard leave Now. He's won the highest club honour with his hometown team who he loves thats why he wanted to leave, to win trophies like this.
Why would he want to leave the champions of Europe. Even if we are not in the champions league next season, he will not leave.
« Last Edit: June 2, 2005, 09:46:22 pm by satmann »

Offline scottishRED

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,184
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #19 on: June 2, 2005, 09:31:32 pm »

it's just a monstrous money-making lie run by fuckwits


:D

That's exactly why we'll be in it next year.

:D :D

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is plainly a fuck up by the FA. as paul says we're the champions of europe. champions of europe dammit!

the whole conflict of interests thing with dein is very interesting and should be roundly condemned, but ultimately, there are 6 or so other committee members and it would be hard to make a case for the rest of them being biased. i know that doesn't make it right that dein sits on the board (what if he influences the others etc.) but it certainly makes claims of bias less blatant. also, from the FA's point of view, they represent the whole of english football - and what is the best outcome for english football - having just four or having five teams in the champions league?

i do think the FA were wrong to take their decision before the event, and it does piss me off hugely.

but part of me (the part that isn't worried about money) just thinks fuck it. we're the champions of europe (champions of europe dammit) and next season we'll win the uefa cup and challenge for the title, which is a damned sight more than everton are going to achieve (jumped up bunch of bitters that they are; they're going to get a rude awakening when they have to deal with more than one match a week next season - and when they start to realise that they play shit spoiling football).

fuck them and their rules. we'll have the moral high-ground when we play in the 2006-2007 supercup as uefa cup winners against next season's CL winners and play whoever it is off the park.

(and if that's not a dream to keep us going if we don't have CL football next season then i don't know what is)
*    *    *    *    *

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,448
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #20 on: June 2, 2005, 09:31:48 pm »
I see your point, but the problem is
1) less cash, and that's essential to enable Rafa in building a PL winning team
2) less Kudos, which helps to bring in the big name players. Although, if they only want to play for us because it's the CL, then we don't want them. You could argue we've achieved the kudos by winning it the way we did, but to then not be defending it is a bit of a slap in the face.

I think the 4 team rule is just to ensure no one league gets too large a share of the cash. This is a money generating and distribution competition, to appease the big clubs who discussed a European Super League, and keep all the FAs sweet by giving them a slice of the cake.

But.....

I believe that if money is what talks, then UEFA will find a way, because the pressure from TV companies and sponsors will be such that it would damage the potential revenues not to have the cup holders in the competition. Especially ones who won it in such a dramatic and historic fashion!

ITV1 reported audiences of nearly 14 million for their coverage last week. They'll be wanting some more of that, thank you.

Oh, and Brian Barwick, current top dog at the FA and former head of sport at ITV, will be very conscious of this...

It's just a bugger he's a scouser and has honourably declared an interest!

AS far as I understand it, the pot stays the same, so money this year will be less (Everton must be rared pissed off at missing out on a potential £5 million. You still get a fixed amount per game, but the TV money (where the real cash is) will be affected by a fifth English team.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline ALPH1217

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,521
  • "C'MON YOU MIGHTY REDS!"
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #21 on: June 2, 2005, 09:32:00 pm »
Just the thought of a club not having an opportunity to defend its title is absurd. How can it be a bona fide tournament without the holders included? Neither the FA officials or UEFA thought it would come down to this   .   .   but it has. In a couple of weeks we'll find out what these people are made of.

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #22 on: June 2, 2005, 09:34:31 pm »
It's not "too late" for anything because as of yet, no team has been entered for European competition for next season.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline Rizla

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,089
  • Super Title: Once a knob always a knob
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #23 on: June 2, 2005, 09:35:20 pm »
The one thing I can't get over, and by that I mean I am simply aghast at and still speechless at, is the fact that last season a representative of the FA stated that if Arsenal or Chelsea were to win the CL and finish outside the top 4, then 4th place would drop into the UEFA Cup.

Until I read that, I was philosophical about the situation, I was even prepared to ignore the precedent set by the Spanish FA. But since then I have felt a great sense of injustice.

Shocking.
I hope the clubs lawyers follow it up, whatever happens.


If the FA were a 'public body' their decision would be overturned by the courts, as it is quite obvious that those involved in the decision making process had an interest in not seeing LFC in the Champions League i.e. David Dein who would have been mindful of a potential drop of revenue for his club Arsenal in the event of us going straight in to the group stages

And I do not believe for one moment Phil Gartside of Bolton did not take part in the tribunal discussions as he claims

It's outrageous that the media have so far refused to go in to any real detail about how the decision to admit Everton was made by the FA...there are a number of reasons why the whole process was so underhand, yet they appear so infatuated with Moyes and co that their judgement has been seriously skewed over this issue

The FA should have formed a tribunal of non-premiership club chairmen to decide this issue if they really wanted to ensure a even handed and fair outcome

We should indeed make a legal challenge of their decision. We may well not win, but I think we all feel that the inherent injustices of the decision need to be made obvious to everyone. Too many people from other clubs still feel the FA have done the right thing and still believe that there stance has been consistent

If I hear anyone say that 'rules are rules' again I will scream! So bloody ignorant...and this pig ignorancy could severely dent our chances of building on our triumph.

It's a bloody disgrace!

Offline Saumitra

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #24 on: June 2, 2005, 09:36:36 pm »
it's called the Union of European Football Associations, but has Israel in it, a country that isn't even in Europe, because, well they say so...

Israel are in UEFA as a side-effect of Turkey who got in it cos, when UEFA was formed, in 48 or 49 if I remember,  they fought like fury to get classified in Europe rather than Asia.  I know Israelis who don't give a damn if they're counted as European or not.  But every Turk I know (having just spoken to a few  8)) knows exactly which continent they think they belong in. 

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #25 on: June 2, 2005, 09:38:53 pm »
Oh, and Brian Barwick, current top dog at the FA and former head of sport at ITV, will be very conscious of this...

It's just a bugger he's a scouser and has honourably declared an interest!


Almost like he had to favour Everton to avoid accusations of favouritism...

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #26 on: June 2, 2005, 09:41:41 pm »
Israel are in UEFA as a side-effect of Turkey who got in it cos, when UEFA was formed, in 48 or 49 if I remember,  they fought like fury to get classified in Europe rather than Asia.  I know Israelis who don't give a damn if they're counted as European or not.  But every Turk I know (having just spoken to a few  8)) knows exactly which continent they think they belong in. 

Israel is in UEFA because most of the Arabic AFC countries wouldn't accept them.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,548
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #27 on: June 2, 2005, 09:41:58 pm »
As it stands, a team who were 34 points worse their domestic champions are being given more reward than the champions of Europe.


True. The FA have painted themselves into a corner with the stupid stance they've taken. They should change their minds and hand Everton's place to us. No-one can be more worthy of a place in a competition than the latest champions.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #28 on: June 2, 2005, 09:49:27 pm »
True. The FA have painted themselves into a corner with the stupid stance they've taken. They should change their minds and hand Everton's place to us. No-one can be more worthy of a place in a competition than the latest champions.


They can't change their mind, and while I wouldn't have any sympathy, it wouldn't be fair on Everton.

Everton didn't deserve to qualify at our expense once we won the European Cup. But once the FA had told them they could, it's not fair either that they should miss out.

It's the FA who are a bunch of idiots, closely followed by Uefa.

Offline Ole Gunnar

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,154
  • In it to win it!
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #29 on: June 2, 2005, 09:58:51 pm »
As always, you are spot on!

The CL doesn't quite have the same ring to if the champions are not there to defend it now does it?
UEFA should have a rule that guarantied the holders to defend, simple as that. And that rule will come, but if it comes in time for us to benefit from it, time will show. 
And FA has really fucked this one up, when they decided who to represent England in Europe; they chose the team in 4’Th place.
Everton deserves credit for their premiership campaign, but seriously, how on earth can anybody mean that finishing fourth is a greater achievement than winning the CL?
When you read those hopless articles about how Everton are just as likely to win it next year, as they finished fourth in the premiership, the same as Liverpool did the year before they won it. You really got to ask what they have been smoking.
Not many did leave us any chance of winning it, at least not until we made it to the final, because there are so many teams in the CL with better players than Liverpool. But when you have a look at the team Everton will be sending into the QUALIFYING rounds, there is just no chance in hell they can win the CL. At least we have the likes of Carra, Gerrard, Alonso and Garcia, players who are top class, and are able to do the things needed to win the CL. No matter how hard I look, I just can't find that in Everton, and they won’t buy any players of that quality this summer either.
If Everton makes it to the CL next season, then at the end of the season, they will be looking back and wondering where it all went wrong.
And I’m not wearing my red glasses on this one either; I just really can’t see them doing a season like this again.
Of course when they play the qualifying rounds, my glasses will be very red!
Anyhow, we will be undefeated champions if we don’t get to defend it, and that got a nice ring to it as well.
Just hope it doesn’t influence Rafa’s summer shopping too much…. 


Bart: Dad, what's a Muppet?

Homer: Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know.

Offline Lanrmort

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,285
  • What were the skies like when you were young?
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #30 on: June 2, 2005, 10:02:23 pm »
People should be screaming from the rooftops about how incompetent the FA has been about this matter. Admittedly, it was a difficult time for them, what with a staunch red, Brian Barwick, taking the helm at the time when the issue came to prominence and having to avoid demonstrating any partisanship.

But goodness knows what possessed the FA to back itself into a corner and come out with the odd decision that Everton should be entitled to the fourth place if they came fourth. And then to try and force UEFA's hand was cynical and clearly hopeless.

I wish above all else that it wasn't Everton in fourth palce because it looks like sour grapes on our part. But there is absolutely no logic whatsoever in them having a place in the Champions League instead of the tournament winners. No logic at all.

For once, and it really is for once, I don't think that UEFA have done all that much wrong. Perhaps the rules aren't as clear as they should be, but they have definitely included a contingency plan for scenarios such as this. And the FA chose to throw the contingency plan back in UEFA's face and then ask for another one. Ridiculous.

Damn the FA and its repeated failings. Football is poorly managed at many levels, but those earning their fortunes at Soho Square truly are the kings of incompetence.
twitter: @mortoni

Offline Lanrmort

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,285
  • What were the skies like when you were young?
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #31 on: June 2, 2005, 10:03:54 pm »

Almost like he had to favour Everton to avoid accusations of favouritism...

Precisely. The irony is that we'd have had a better chance of getting a place in the Champions League next season if Barwick had been a Manc.
twitter: @mortoni

Offline Rizla

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,089
  • Super Title: Once a knob always a knob
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #32 on: June 2, 2005, 10:06:06 pm »
Unfortunately it is inevitable that our purchasing power in the transfer market will be adversely affected if we are not allowed to defend our trophy. As for everton, they are looking to bring the likes of Forssell and Parker in who are good enough to play in the CL...even if much of the rest of their squad are not. They will probably be in the top 6 with the players they are seeking to bring in. However, there is far too much rubbish being spouted about us not deserving to be in the CL next season as we seemingly prioritised that over the league...

And why the fuck shouldnt we have done that? We knew we wouldnt win the league by Christmas! Why cant we focus on winning the European Cup?

4th over a CL triumph ???

Mad

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

  • blames English football
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,656
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #33 on: June 2, 2005, 10:10:29 pm »
But every Turk I know (having just spoken to a few  8)) knows exactly which continent they think they belong in. 

Turkey is in Europe though...Europe stretches eastwards from there and is apparently bordered at the eastern side by the Ural mountain range...this means that I could release the Moldovan, Azeri, Armenian, Abkhazian, Chechen, North Ossettian, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Tatar, Kirghiz, Bashkirian, Chuvash, Mordovian and Udmurt bees from my bonnet
 :butt

but not the Israeli one

Offline Dermot

  • Rent this renovated space for just £3.99/month. Price includes neon backlighting.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,777
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #34 on: June 2, 2005, 10:13:40 pm »
Personally I don't care if we dont get to defend our trophy because if we are in the UEFA cup next season we'll win the league.
The cheek of that mon, deserves a shlap

Offline Lanrmort

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,285
  • What were the skies like when you were young?
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #35 on: June 2, 2005, 10:18:49 pm »
Personally I don't care if we dont get to defend our trophy because if we are in the UEFA cup next season we'll win the league.

That certainly is a good mentality.
twitter: @mortoni

Offline alexnw

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Main Stander
  • ******
  • Posts: 246
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #36 on: June 2, 2005, 10:21:35 pm »
Just a thought.....

If the FA had come out and said that the last CL place next season would be decided on the result of  the final, I think it would have changed the whole complexion of last weeks match.

What drove the team on was pride,  had there been the additional pressure of a guaranteed   CL place aswell, I can't help thinking that the result may have been different.......

maybe the FA did us a favour?

Completely hypothetical I know and probably rubbish, but what do you think?

Offline Dermot

  • Rent this renovated space for just £3.99/month. Price includes neon backlighting.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,777
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #37 on: June 2, 2005, 10:25:47 pm »
That certainly is a good mentality.

Mentality? Eees a fact.
The cheek of that mon, deserves a shlap

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,548
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #38 on: June 2, 2005, 10:43:11 pm »

They can't change their mind, and while I wouldn't have any sympathy, it wouldn't be fair on Everton.

Everton didn't deserve to qualify at our expense once we won the European Cup. But once the FA had told them they could, it's not fair either that they should miss out.

It's the FA who are a bunch of idiots, closely followed by Uefa.

Guess that means we're out. It's not fair on Everton if they're kicked out, but it's still the only correct solution. The UEFA may have stupid rules, but they shouldn't re-write them because the English FA scewed up. If Everton were to seek compensation from the FA, that's all fair IMO, but the CL spot should belong to us. 

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Neil D

  • The new Kop pin-up model. Met Momo in the ASDA.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,377
Re: Why the FA should be ashamed in the wake of Liverpool's success
« Reply #39 on: June 2, 2005, 10:57:54 pm »
Some great points there. Strugglin to quote this properly, but on a tangent from the FA's incompetence this is a very astute observation:

"Someone like Crouch won't care if he's in the Champions League or not, of course. He's probably not in the top 100 strikers in world football, let alone the top ten. But even the tallest defenders can find him 'unplayable' at times –– as did ours at St Marys earlier in the season. While Rafa will also want to add some top class international players over the summer, I'd be happy to see him add some effective 'alternatives', especially for the Premiership. Crouch wouldn't arrive to be first choice, he would be purchased to give a different option. With the quickest striker in the league (Cissé), it would offer a nice counterpoint to have the tallest.

   It's about possessing a solution to every problem. You need a collection of talents: the best passers, the hardest workers, the most committed, and so on. If you can call upon the tallest and the fastest as well, it can only add to your effectiveness."

Spot on that, and if the interest is true, exactly what I think Rafa is thinking. Burnley away in the FA Cup, the last fifteen minutes of a game when silky passing is failing to breach a resolute defence, a knock down from a corner - Crouch would offer one thing... more possibilities.