Author Topic: Round Table: League Cup Final.  (Read 7912 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round Table: League Cup Final.
« on: February 29, 2016, 09:27:11 am »
arse.

there endeth my tactical analysis of a match that was there for the taking by either team.

All our positives and all our faults were there on display yesterday for all to see. City should've put it to bed with Young Master Sterling and his 1872 mutton chops. Is he on a bet to have the silliest hair and beard combo in the world or something? Anyway they didn't, and we couldn't either.

Positives:
When we pass quickly and go forward with speed we are dangerous and often slick and lovely to watch.
Lucas had a fantastic game for me yesterday. Although he's clearly on a mission to give away a free kick in a dangerous position int he last 2 mins of any match he plays in that position. But we looked actually more solid and less fragile with him there.
The goalie. (see also negatives)
Coutinho's vision is a joy to watch. He would (sadly) wreck havoc if he played for Barca or someone like that, I feel for him having certain teammates around him.
Can. had a good game.

Negatives:
I've got to be honest and say Henderson does my nut in. I've often thought and said I think his quick/instant decision making skills are severely lacking, when he has to pass quickly its invariably backwards, into a dead end or the wrong pass. Yesterday was a perfect example of this. He constantly passed backwards, or stopped, took a few touches and moved it sideways. Like a rabbit in the headlights. He has his skills but a)that ain't one of them so don't play him there and b) He's not a little Gerrard. He's not a captain of Liverpool. I'm not that sure how much authority he has. There are times when I really like him but he's a younger Milner in some respects, not a younger playmaker dictating the match.
The goalie (see positives)

And this point, which sort of weighs most heavily on me. I'm not entirely sure we had a big game plan out there yesterday. I couldn't see a thought through process that said beyond pressing high, (which didn't happen so much either) that there was a clear strategy for moving the ball forward at speed to get the most of Sturridge and Coutinho. The amount of times Sturridge came really deep for the ball or was out wide meant we frequently deviod of reds in their box. Frustrating. Granted City defended well and in numbers, but I'm guessing Herr Klopp is almost biding his time as it were, before having a clean out and/or bringing in a wise old head to settle us. Oh for a Kompany or Toure the Younger yesterday.

Anyway penalties was a shambles. I honestly think the team thought we've won them all before, lets let anyone have a shot and a piss about before we try and break the net with an old fashioned blast.

hey ho.
Yep.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2016, 02:37:15 pm »
In broad agreement Hinesy, bar one thing which is Sturridge coming deep.

Lucas was excellent, which is no big surprise. His reading of the game is exceptional and he tackles early and with genuine force. He's also probably the best header of a ball in the squad, reading the flight early and timing his leap exactly. It's also a real boon to have a player back in central defence who can move quickly with the ball and change direction. He sent a stream of very nice passes into midfield which another team would have converted into dangerous possession.

We didn't. Why?

Hinesy has already given the main answer, which is the ineptitude of Henderson. It's rare to see such a hyped Premier League central midfielder so baffled by  the demands of the modern game as our skipper. After all these years he still cannot turn on the ball. The reason is that he has no idea what's happening around him unless it's happening right in front of his face. Pure tunnel vision. I was also going spare at his inability to pick the right pass or switch play or simply collect a ball and turn the right frigging way. The young kid Kevin Stewart would have made a massive difference to Liverpool's play yesterday had he been fit and chosen to play ahead of Henderson.

As it was we were turgid in the centre of the pitch with virtually every pass Henderson delivered letting the air out of our play and allowing Man City to keep a lock on Firmino and Sturridge. Someone should remind Jordan that it's pass and move that we do at Liverpool. The move bit is as vital as the pass bit. Without it poor old Clyne (in particular) kept getting return passes from Henderson that left him completely boxed in - nowhere to go because the bloke who'd given him the pass was now stationary and effectively forming a blockade. It was notable too that Henderson kept getting brushed off by Sterling and Silva, small guys who know how to position themselves in relation to the ball and know how to turn a clumsy shoulder charge to their advantage. Henderson put in several clumsy challenges yesterday, selling himself every time to the wiser and better opponent.

That's now the second Wembley final in a row that we've entered with a defensive midfielder who isn't up to the mark. Spearing had an even worse time v Chelsea of course. And it's such a vital position. Henderson needs big open fields and loads of room behind the defence to run into to be effective. But most Premier League football is played in tight space. Surely Klopp won't persevere with such a wasting asset next season? Curtains if he does.

As for Sturridge, Hinesy shares the frustration of many on the other thread that he kept coming too deep. I disagree with that. I thought in the first half, at least, it was an effective ploy. Or rather it could have been an effective one if Sturridge had completed the job. On two occasions he collected the ball and turned his man neatly to be met by ten yards of clearish space in front of a very straight and very high Man City line. I kept thinking of the way Dortmund played under Klopp. They would have killed Man City at that moment with two (or three) quick passes. What was needed was a swift pass from Sturridge into either Firmino or Coutinho who'd moved ahead of him and then a full-on sprint for a first-time return ball behind the City line. Sturridge had so much room to play with once he'd turned that there was a massive margin of error regarding any possible offside. Sadly, Daniel dawdled after doing the hard bit (turning his man), passed laterally, usually to Milner on the right wing, and the air went out of our play again.

But these three players hold such promise (four and five if you include the Lallana and Origi, who both did well when they came on). It seems to me unimaginable that Klopp won't get something special out of them next season.
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Offline Harinder

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 04:04:01 pm »
Somewhere deep inside I'm still trying to come to terms with having lost

Head long ago rationalised that we'd lost and it was over. My heart is very far from that. As soon as City realised they could easily overlap with another player on the wings they did. Repeatedly. Being there you see what you want to not all that you can. I could see us trying but so easily being stuck in the middle with choices that followed being too slow or the wrong ones. That was where this game was effectively decided - the moments between doing the right thing and taking too long to work it out

Penalties. I never ever thought we'd lose after the first save/hitting the post. The way Caballero saved Lucas' penalty left me with a very heavy lump in my heart. It only got worse when Mignolet went the right way twice but couldn't get his hand to the ball. By the time it was all over I'd already started the mental process of moving on. Everywhere I look today most people I know are like me. Upstairs we know it's a match we lost and therefore no silverware from the competition to bring home. Inside our hearts we're trying to heal the open wound of losing at Wembley with a manager who gets us more than we know. That same wound that some players will be feeling too.

We know somewhere things will change. Time is a great healer and all that but right now that time is going very slowly  :'(
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Offline wemmick

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2016, 06:15:35 pm »
Hinesy has already given the main answer, which is the ineptitude of Henderson. It's rare to see such a hyped Premier League central midfielder so baffled by  the demands of the modern game as our skipper. After all these years he still cannot turn on the ball. The reason is that he has no idea what's happening around him unless it's happening right in front of his face. Pure tunnel vision. I was also going spare at his inability to pick the right pass or switch play or simply collect a ball and turn the right frigging way. The young kid Kevin Stewart would have made a massive difference to Liverpool's play yesterday had he been fit and chosen to play ahead of Henderson.

Good OP, and nice post, mate. I agree with this bit in particular. Henderson gave us a problem yesterday. City kept us from building a head of steam in possession just by putting early pressure on Henderson when he received the ball and man-marking Can. At times, Henderson came to expect the pressure to the point that he played the CBs into tight spaces even when no pressure was forthcoming. That just can't happen in a game like this. We are not going to win trophies or beat tactically disciplined sides in Europe if our midfield can be so easily contained. We barely beat Augsburg, and now we've lost to City, and both teams used the exact same tactical plan! I, too, wondered if the outcome yesterday would have been different with Stewart or Allen playing instead of Henderson.

As an addendum, I'm not scapegoating Henderson, as he was not the only problem yesterday, but it was pretty obvious that City targeted him in particular, along with Moreno. Every team has their weaknesses, and this is a big one for us. If Henderson starts against Utd in the EL, I'll be very surprised if Aloysius Paulus Maria "Louis" van Gaal doesn't use the exact same tactics. It works like charm against Can and Henderson.       

Offline Robinred

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2016, 06:16:03 pm »
So grateful for the O.P, and in particular, Yorky's post, for saving me the rather unpleasant task of being brutally truthful about a lad who isn't fully fit, and is actually the club skipper - two reasons to go easy on him.

Except it's become, for me, the elephant in the room. I actually need to mention another thing: Jordan is 6'1", yesterday, unsurprisingly for anyone who watches him, he was regularly beaten airially by Silva. So, the single most important team-building issue for me, and one which HAS to be on Klopp's mind if he's even half the man we think him to be. Not to mention other weaknesses could bring a charge of scapegoating. I'd hate for that to detract from what I think is the thorniest problem Klopp has to deal with, because the lad IS captain, high-profile, and an England regular.

City set up with our defeat of them at their place very much in mind. I don't rate them as a team to be honest. Sure Aguero is among the very best strikers in world football. And although he has not reached the level of two seasons ago, Silva is still a wonderful talent. But they have some very ordinary players too. Their starting full backs for example (Zabaleta is a fading force, but still a player I adore). Fernando, Fernandinho and Navas are not at the level you would expect of a team with City's profile, spending power and ambition.

So it was disappointing not to win the penalty shoot out. But of far more concern to me looking forward, is to entertain the notion that our new manager is incapable of seeing what others clearly can, and do.

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Offline the 92A

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 06:16:15 pm »
 No Instanbul's without days like yesterday. Keep reminding myself that on the train home but that's the 3rd trip to Wembley on the run where I've felt that. Hate the place Cardiff was so much better than that commercialised, soulless bowl.  Mixed feelings, at times City exposed us without turning that into goals that's why Mignolet's mistake was so costly and as much as I want him to prove his critics wrong, the negatives have outweighed the positives too many times and yesterday was a tipping point for me. Lucas was immense, his reading of danger saved us at crucial moments,  the whole team battled and if it was about who wanted it we'd have won, the second half revival was through will but when it came to a cutting edge, we came up short. I thought, understandably, Sturridge looked a bit short on movement yet you could see he was looking for a decisive moment that would make the difference. We took the chance and went for it after the equaliser but we're lacking a bit of quality in the middle and I thought Firmino had an off game and played the wrong ball too many times. We really went for it at times but were rarely decisive enough, too many times  the last ball went to the wrong man or there was no looking up and  the momentum was there without the guile. This team aren't as hopeless as many believe but we need some real quality in more than one position. Klopp fills me with confidence and if we can see the problems then i'm sure he's working on solutions.  I'm not used to losing finals and i don't want to make a habit of it.
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Offline John C

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 06:23:06 pm »
In broad agreement Hinesy, bar one thing which is Sturridge coming deep.

I agree with Hinsey about Sturridge, his positioning was infuriating to watch because the space he left needed a match winner in there. I felt he was ineffective wide and deep, I was desperate to see him on the shoulder of Man City's defence, at it was it was all too easy for them. Arguably that's not always his game as he's a good mover the fact that we did little to trouble Caballero with no final outlet for a passage of play help City. Indeed, had Sturridge not permitted himself to be disposed so easily when he did drift in, we may have created far more than we did. And that's also because Firmino offered little as an attacking threat.

Both players lacked what Origi seemed to introduce when he eventually appeared.

We had decent possession but did little with it, so while we out played them on occasions they still created 4 game-winning opportunities only thwarted by poor finishing or great saves from Mignolet.
 
Coutinho was short of his best, Can needs to be far more dominant and Henderson needs to stop being Jordan Henderson and discover a different version of himself. Lucas & Toure were excellent and Milner did his very best to offer something from leftback. The first time he attacked he cut back on his right - trademark most right-footed players; but the second time he delivered a great cross with his left which should have been attacked. He's a lad with great stamina for his age. But next year he might not be.

Both full backs failed to over-lap sufficiently to stretch play naturally and Klopp either got fed up with Moreno or worried about a red card.

Without reaching a cup-final performance level, over 90 minutes we accomplished an objective, not losing despite the good fortune of City's ineffectiveness - that's what big games are about so I was pleased for Klopp about that. But overall, we lost out on lifting the cup due to massive errors by our keeper not saving and players not taking or smashing penalties. Not simple tasks, but both a bit simpler than they made it look.

We were all gutted watching at home and at the ground, but I was heartfelt sorry for Jurgen Klopp, I so wished he'd experienced a wonderful moment after a season ruined by injuries.

Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 06:45:00 pm »
Not sure this game was as one sided as many are making out. The goal changed everything and that came from a completely unforced error. Before that it was fairly even and after we equalised it was also fairly even. The part where City created the chances was while they lead and we chased the game. I thought we overdid the chasing btw, there was plenty of time left when we started overloading their half of the field. Ultimately though the proof is in the pudding and we got the equaliser so can't criticise our tactics too much.

The problem with modern day football, well perhaps it was always this way, is that the result frames the narrative for the performance. Had we won on penalties we would look at our display through a completely different prism. The scapegoating that's taking place with Henderson is just an example of this. Personally I don't think he's a holding or even a defensive midfielder but he certainly wasn't as bad yesterday, in those roles, as some are claiming.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 07:03:59 pm »
I thought that Sturridge was deep as well but was that because he got frustrated or thats just how he plays? Probably a bit of both as he did seem visibly frustrated and he too has acknowledged he drops deep too much at times.

I think the game turned on the goal hence the criticism for Mignolet. They didnt want to over do it and left players back to ensure they didnt give any space to the counter. They played the percentages.

After that error we threw everything forward, chucked on our subs and that gave them space and their best chances. Before that it was cagey affair and a very even affair. We struggled to create chances but so did they.

Offline Ycuzz

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 09:12:06 pm »
I'll nail me colours to the mast and say that the game was lost wasn't won in midfield. And, as already mentioned, I do lay some blame at our skipper, I really do. It was borderline infuriating the amount of times he, not necessarily did a bad thing - he just didn't do a right thing. Turn, pass and move. It [the pass] went backwards and he remained, too often, stationary.

Now, he wasn't alone out there - and it's not "he was rubbish", but I found myself early thinking 'who can we sub for him and how to set up then?'. I thought Can had a fairly decent game. He still have moments where he completely shuts down, but I thought he generally got stuck in and made an effort. Milner is, well, Milner. Didn't spend as much time on the floor as he usually does, (tho it happened more than enough), got stuck in, worked his as off and ultimately proved a better left back than our Spaniard with the random thought pattern, (what in the name of all that is good and pure were you thinking Moreno - well, that's it, you weren't), I'd be livid if 'that' "tackle" happened against us and we didn't get a penalty. Awful stuff.

I'm a fan of Lucas and have been for years. Wanted it the most of everyone out there. Did well and, perhaps most importantly, was a true leader, (gonna leave the armband blah-blah out *oops*).

Sturridge should have come off for Origi. As mentioned above, can't say if it's the 'plan' or not, but I feel he drops deep because he hasn't touched the ball in long time. He has excellent movement and I feel that such moves are wasted - unless, of course, we get the quick passes and bursts of speed. We didn't tho, there was dallying (doubts?) and moments - and chances lost. Firmino was in and out of the game, but he has a good engine and lasts longer than Sturridge, I'd kept him on. Coutinho.. ah, lil' Phil. I've said earlier that since his return from injury he's been playing with a mood - a good one. I'll still say that. Was a difficult game for him. Our midfield didn't do the job, so City had a, fairly, easy task of getting to him. Hard and early. Origi came on and instilled hope, at least for me. There's a proper player in there and I'm really curious which one we'll see in 6 months time. Think he'll start the next game.

Mignolet. What to say.. we've been over it a million times.. I want a new keeper, that's it.

City was good, but neither above or ahead of us. I think Kompany back for them made a huge difference. I don't rate Otamendi at all and their backs should be something we should beat with a bit of hard work. Aguero is an absolute deadly finisher and good footballer, but barring a few incidents here and there, I'll give our CBs a thumbs up and a well done for how they handled him.

Usually I'm nervous as fuck before games like this. This time I was just giddy and excited. Not sure why...

I'm gonna go with it's because we have Jürgen Klopp as our manager. Yeah, that's it. He's the source of giddyism.
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Offline Redsnappa

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 10:10:28 pm »
Sorry this post is shorter than you require folks, but I won't pretend I've got the in-depth knowledge of tactics and formations that youse do.

Now it's been mentioned with the clarity of a day's thought and not immediately after the game about Hendo's inability to turn on the ball, I do remember it and remember how stifled we looked in midfield. It's great that this sort of thing comes up on here and on the Wrap so as to give us er, less knowledgeable watchers a clue to why we performed so stutteringly.

However, I wanted to ask a question. It was annoying me all game and has done during other games this season.

Why did Firmino get caught offside so often?

Was it a. City's defence being absolutely top notch and moving up a la Tony Adams/Steve Bould Arsenal of yore or b. someone else in our forward line wasn't doing their job or c. Firmino is as thick as two short planks?

I remember that was one of Benteke's criticisms, but we know he's a big unit and not what you'd call agile. What's Firmino's excuse?

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 11:15:53 pm »
Find it quite difficult to really get a grip on things that happened, why I think this and think that after a game like yesterdays, but will try. The tension of the occasion, and spending 35 minutes hoping and praying (and hopping about) for just one good chance to level isn't helping either. It's like a fog. But that was a damn fine moment that equaliser. I think the build up to that goal, and the goal itself, has carried me in defeat. I found myself laughing alot at work today for some reason. Maybe it's tonic'd me thru it a bit, I don't know.

I was ill in bed for 3.5 days previous, so was glad to be alive and up, and happy to meet some friends and friends of theirs at a pub in town. I was even happy to drive there and to drink one beer all game. What an idiot. A final on a shandy... urg. Got there in time to see Mr Van Gaal fall over. Lovely moment. Full of your typical jeering Mancs and skulky Gooners. Off you go now please... there's a final on. Tootle on there.. there you go. Ah, a decent spec.

Wembley looked fantastic on the telly welly. Felt bloody years since we were in a final. First half went by neither slowly, nor quickly. The use of Fernandinho was of interest to me before the game - wondered if he was there to nullify things a little, and not have a Navas in there, and I think it worked. Had almost forgotton that Kompany would start... hoped for Otamendi and AN Other, and thought that might be key. It WAS key, just not the way I hoped. It wasn't an end to end game as such, but it was full of intrigue. There were some negatives - spent some time wishing Sturridge was at 90-100% but was clearly at 70. I'm with Yorky on Sturridge dropping deep. I love having a Sturridge drifting out of the areas where he 'should' be in, to pick things up, get things going again, adding that other pair of decent feet in the build up ( or rather a pair of decent feet). He wins a ball, makes space, ballets the ball to the sides or in front... out of the tussle and bustle, and away from the concerns of central defenders - idles about waiting - takes his moment, makes his run, two seconds later, gets infront, slots home off the shoulder. But he's at 70% today. Everything is. But that's a few games in a row now. Encouraging. Firminio was at 70% (tho still unsure of what 100% really looks like), and Coutinho was too. Our midfield is our midfield. Our back 5 are our back 5.

Our back 5 looked like our back 5 for their goal second half, that's for sure. All I wanted was to not go home in defeat after a blunder. Why he doesn't use a leg I'll never know. But towards the end of that second half, he was fast becoming a hero, and stars were aligning. Moreno's tackle you do only on your sister in the garden, Sterlings finishing... Bony coming on. Bony instead of Silva with a pen? Happy with that. The rush of our equaliser, and that tense last 15. All much a blur that 2nd half, bar me shouting 'don't let him turn!' at the countless times Toure received the ball and whizzed around forwards. Would love someone in our team to do that from there.

Can't remember a thing about extra time.

So... pens. Mate said, 'we're probably favourites here now aren't we?' Oh go away with that! I just didn't want Can to take one. All I could think of. I wasn't able to speak... just glued onto Klopp's beaming smile. It's a really good smile. I'm taking stuff from that smile... the players are surely. Shots of a small huddle as they work out who's doing what. Wanted the pens to be taken at our end obviously. All I wanted. Plus Can not to take one. A big group huddle, and Klopp roars a primal roar.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ybGOT4d2Hs8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ybGOT4d2Hs8</a>

(EDIT: Napalm Death's 'You Suffer' - clocking in at 1.316 seconds long)

That immediately came to mind. We can do this Reds, we can do this. Is that erm?... is that... ah... bugger, we're at their end... ah well, we'll do it the hard way then... but is that Can with the ball? 'Rob.. haha... it's Can mate!'. I didn't want to watch. I turned round, another screen, I hunched on the floor. I got up... didn't know what to do with myself.. oh God, Can... up first, he's going to do something daft. Could have slapped him when it went in.. ha. Fernandinho goes up... he's not scoring. Look at that face! Everyone sensed it... he's not in a good place... not walking up right. Post! I'm stood still... just a clenched fist. I'm the only one still it seems. I don't bounce around during pens. Seems daft to me. Lucas... Lucas?! really? Oh God. Thoughts go back to a pen he scores very well in a shootout., but is he walking up right here? He is I think. Is he? Not sure now. Places the ball.. yep... all ok... walks backwards facing goal... don't like the eyes... somethings not right. Please for the love of god go in. Nope... not what you want. Navas... ah... maybe there's some hope. Actually, because I'm thinking that... he's going to put in a peach of a pen... no fuss, bang, hard low, wide of keeper, side netting. Can't even remember what he did now. But he scores. Phil... Come on Phil... easy mate this is... good solid strike. Oh, he's paused... is he falling over? he's lost his train of thought... lost that split moment you need when you pause like that - you watch for just a muscle twitch from the keeper, and you've got time to decide to put it in the other side... but he lost that moment. Hung there for an age wondering what to do. Chose the wrong one, and dollied it to mid off. Oh fuck this. Aguero. Aguero is going to score. Will he? Hmn? Stories... y' never know. Oh come on Robert think straight. Scores. Lallana. tries to control the ball with his feet walking up to take the pen. Miscontrols it. Never going to score. Doesn't. I hadn't even allowed the space in my head to wonder why Milner or Henderson hadn't taken one. We'll never know probably. Toure.. bang.. goal. Some hadn't stayed for it.

Next time... get your 3 best pen takers on first. Do that please.


And out of the pub we go.




But I really quite enjoyed that game. Enjoyed the fight back. Enjoyed being in a Final. Let's hope for some more. Onwards. Lots to do.

« Last Edit: March 1, 2016, 04:17:31 pm by Filler. »

Offline didi

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 11:56:40 pm »
I can see why Milner was well liked at City, as a squad player he is a great asset to have with his willingness and great attitude of putting it about and not surprised he was wel liked by both fans and management. The problem at LIverpool is he is looked upon as a key player player playing in a key position but the difference being he is not surrounded by world class talent and his strengths are not anything different from his two partners in midfield. In a way he reminds of A lot of Dirk but in a LIverpool side shorn of world class talent his limitation is woefully exposed

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #13 on: March 1, 2016, 12:36:25 am »
For me it was very easy game to sum up. In essence they simply played it far smarter than us. Then again they didn't have to be master tacticians to know the best way to play against us if they'd watched any recent videos of how we repeat the same playing pattern.

It meant the essence of their game was to sit back with their back eight/nine and let our attacks founder on their defensive barrier due invariably to our own over elaboration [particularly Firmino but also Sturridge and Coutinho] plus our awful final delivery [all of our front 6 and the two full backs].

Then with us over committed to hit us quickly on the break through the quick thinking/moving Toure, Silva, Aguero and the profligate Sterling which is hardly a huge challenge for decent players like theirs to achieve against limited defensive cover of a team with half its defensive element constantly left upfield high and dry due to the aforesaid over elaboration/shite final balls.

I'd be interested to look back to see how many times they actually pierced our defence other than when they were hitting us on the break.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #14 on: March 1, 2016, 07:09:58 am »
I can see why Milner was well liked at City, as a squad player he is a great asset to have with his willingness and great attitude of putting it about and not surprised he was wel liked by both fans and management. The problem at LIverpool is he is looked upon as a key player player playing in a key position but the difference being he is not surrounded by world class talent and his strengths are not anything different from his two partners in midfield. In a way he reminds of A lot of Dirk but in a LIverpool side shorn of world class talent his limitation is woefully exposed

Personally feel Kuyt had a lot more to him than Milner, and had proven it big time prior to coming to Liverpool

Mind you, I expected Milner to be more consistent than he is. Some games he is just way off which is a shame

Offline Fordy

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #15 on: March 1, 2016, 07:51:15 am »
The game was an eye opener for some and proving what some already know to others. Our team isn't good enough and lacks leaders.

Ya Ya Toure out on his feet steps up to score the winning penalty. Our so called leader no where to be seen. Ya Ya didn't have the best 90mins but drove the team forward in extra time. City's captain was a rock. There senior key players stepped up when counted and ours where hiding in the Wembley tunnel.

Henderson shouldn't be leading our team it without question should be Lucas or Can. Lucas was a just awesome on the day. A true leader for for us. Can also tried have an impact on the game .

Many have said that Milner, Hendo and Can in the same team isn't creative enough and that was proven on Sunday. It was all huff and puff. Our attacking players were suffering and Sturridge even came in to midfield to try get on the ball. Sturridge had a poor came by his standards but he lacked service.

Our Toure was outstanding when he came on and as I said before Lucas was amazing but please for the love of Fowler can we try another LB now as Moreno is just shocking. Mignolet is a liability and its cystal clear that we need a new keeper. A keeper can't make costly errors like that in a final.

We huff and puffed but we couldn't blow the house down.

A final that was a wake up call for many. Hopefully a new captain, a decent LB, a creative CM and a world class keeper are all on the cards in the summer.




Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #16 on: March 1, 2016, 09:47:58 am »
I said after the match and continue to maintain that our midfield remains the key problem area for the team. If that was resolved it would take a lot of pressure off both the attack and defence. I don't think any Can or Henderson are demonstratively bad players, they just don't work well together. They are too similar in style and the game breaks down when they are on the edge of the box trying to figure out what to to next. Besides that Firmino and Coutinho are too intricate and trying to lock pick a crowded centre, while Milner keeps going wide and launching balls back into the box, it's a funny combination. His deployment at LB was interesting though, the team looked more balanced with Origi up beside Sturridge (who I think needs more support) and Moreno off the pitch.

Have to say, Moreno is the most brainless player I have ever seen at Liverpool. His Kung Fu leg sweep seemed to be the final straw for Klopp, who hauled him off soon after. I would be surprised if he is first choice next season.

However, those problems aside, it was a fighting performance by a  somewhat limited side. I thought Lallana coming on added a lot of impetus and truth be told we have missed his running in the last few weeks. We are still a  side prone to being bullied by bigger, more physical sides, but they at least held on (by luck on some occasions) to keep Liverpool in the game.
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Offline RedKenWah

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #17 on: March 1, 2016, 10:01:41 am »
I find trying to come up with a logical analysis of this game quite difficult as it was a cup final after all said and done. A cup final whereby we as a team should have lost during normal time, if it were not for the heroics of Mignolet, whom was at fault for letting in their goal.

I don't think we can learn much from this game... i don't think we have learnt much more by this single game alone that we don't already know from this season and i think  that's the most important thing about this game, learning... I don't think that when Klopp and his 2 trusted assitants sit down and disect this game phase by phase, or period by period, there won't be anything concluded that they have not come up with before.

I think with the team i wouldn't like to say there was an arrogance with regards to the penalties, but i would say there was probably a bit of naivety from the players in thinking we were up against the second choice goalkeeper and we thought we would breeze it and in some ways thankfully we have lost this on penalties and it serves as a wake up call. Of course there is the tiredness factor as well of playing 120 minutes in a cup final, the intensity of the occassion would have taken it's toll on them and then to step up and do penalties... I'm personally not fussed about the order of penalty takers, you would have banked on Lucas, Coutinho & Lallana banging away their spot kicks, but alas it did not happen and we lost.


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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #18 on: March 1, 2016, 10:16:52 am »
Nothing much to add here as when you have the wrong pieces on the chess board or use them incorrectly you will always struggle against a side that has oil $$$ coming out of its ass or pays you enough wages to allow you to grow the silliest facial hair seen on this side of the Pennines & not give a shit about the possible stick you get. If we had a chance to reboot that game after 20 minutes then the likes of Moreno, Formino & even Henderson/Milner would have been sitting on the bench for the likes of Flanagan, Lucas in CM and Toure starting alongside Sakho. Sturridge when 80% fit needed Origi beside him from the start to stretch that City / Kompany defence. Formino might have flourished more if he started up front even but its hard to know with the lad as I don't see him being our lone striker and he seems to struggle in the #10 role.

Anyway we basically showed our form for the season at the Cup final as we were very lucky to be there and on the day was praying for penalties by the 80th minute but then looked like we could do the job in ET. A couple of lads really showed they wanted it, too many were not up to the scratch and the best side in a poor Final ended up winning it so not too many complaints really.
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Offline CoventryYNWA

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #19 on: March 1, 2016, 10:43:20 am »
The thing that disappoints me the most about our performance is our sloppiness on the ball and has concerned me all season. I am somewhat left bewildered that this team played under a Brendan Rodgers era that supposedly focused on keeping possession yet we surrender it so easily.

Despite me thinking initially that it was down to nerves of the Cup Final in-front of a bumper crowd, retrospectively the day at Wembley was to be no different to the same shortcomings that we have had all season in our squad and starting XI as a whole.

We are a team of work horses and when we play with Henderson Can & Milner they are much of a muchness. Off of the ball they are brilliant, and to a degree in the final third our pressing was good but there is no point turning over the ball into our possession if we are going to surrender it straight back to the opposition and when in this case, the opposition is Manchester City with players of the irk that they have they will inevitably use these turn overs to hit us on the break.

So, after the final whistle and all said and done I have been left with the same frustrations as I have been for a lot of 2016 so far.

* Why do we persist with Milner/Henderson in the same XI? Again, I would say that we should always play one or the other.
* What has Joe Allen got to do to take one of Milner/Henderson/Can's spot in the team? He offers something different, neatness and stability in our middle third. You know he will keep the ball.
* How can our team be so sloppy on the ball? It may be that we have a high percentage of pass accuracy but that % tends to be in our third. When we approach the middle and final third and the area is a little congested we seem to lose the ball, A LOT. It's very infuriating to see this happen.

Klopp's hands have previously been tied with team selection, I know our defensive situation is still poor in terms of injuries but I am shocked that we are persisting with a similar team that produces the same types of soulless performances. It's not that I am questioning Klopp, far from it - it is more curiosity as to why he doesn't trust other players.

Offline TSC

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #20 on: March 1, 2016, 10:47:21 am »
I thought that Sturridge was deep as well but was that because he got frustrated or thats just how he plays? Probably a bit of both as he did seem visibly frustrated and he too has acknowledged he drops deep too much at times.



This was solely down to the inability of the midfield to provide the attack with the ball.  At one stage Sturridge came so deep he was in our half in order to get the ball from the defence.  That says more about our midfield than anything else.  Not surprising he gets frustrated.  It's probably one of the most non-creative/one dimensional midfield we've ever had.

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #21 on: March 1, 2016, 11:06:12 am »
In broad agreement Hinesy, bar one thing which is Sturridge coming deep.

Lucas was excellent, which is no big surprise. His reading of the game is exceptional and he tackles early and with genuine force. He's also probably the best header of a ball in the squad, reading the flight early and timing his leap exactly. It's also a real boon to have a player back in central defence who can move quickly with the ball and change direction. He sent a stream of very nice passes into midfield which another team would have converted into dangerous possession.

We didn't. Why?

Hinesy has already given the main answer, which is the ineptitude of Henderson. It's rare to see such a hyped Premier League central midfielder so baffled by  the demands of the modern game as our skipper. After all these years he still cannot turn on the ball. The reason is that he has no idea what's happening around him unless it's happening right in front of his face. Pure tunnel vision. I was also going spare at his inability to pick the right pass or switch play or simply collect a ball and turn the right frigging way. The young kid Kevin Stewart would have made a massive difference to Liverpool's play yesterday had he been fit and chosen to play ahead of Henderson.

As it was we were turgid in the centre of the pitch with virtually every pass Henderson delivered letting the air out of our play and allowing Man City to keep a lock on Firmino and Sturridge. Someone should remind Jordan that it's pass and move that we do at Liverpool. The move bit is as vital as the pass bit. Without it poor old Clyne (in particular) kept getting return passes from Henderson that left him completely boxed in - nowhere to go because the bloke who'd given him the pass was now stationary and effectively forming a blockade. It was notable too that Henderson kept getting brushed off by Sterling and Silva, small guys who know how to position themselves in relation to the ball and know how to turn a clumsy shoulder charge to their advantage. Henderson put in several clumsy challenges yesterday, selling himself every time to the wiser and better opponent.

That's now the second Wembley final in a row that we've entered with a defensive midfielder who isn't up to the mark. Spearing had an even worse time v Chelsea of course. And it's such a vital position. Henderson needs big open fields and loads of room behind the defence to run into to be effective. But most Premier League football is played in tight space. Surely Klopp won't persevere with such a wasting asset next season? Curtains if he does.

As for Sturridge, Hinesy shares the frustration of many on the other thread that he kept coming too deep. I disagree with that. I thought in the first half, at least, it was an effective ploy. Or rather it could have been an effective one if Sturridge had completed the job. On two occasions he collected the ball and turned his man neatly to be met by ten yards of clearish space in front of a very straight and very high Man City line. I kept thinking of the way Dortmund played under Klopp. They would have killed Man City at that moment with two (or three) quick passes. What was needed was a swift pass from Sturridge into either Firmino or Coutinho who'd moved ahead of him and then a full-on sprint for a first-time return ball behind the City line. Sturridge had so much room to play with once he'd turned that there was a massive margin of error regarding any possible offside. Sadly, Daniel dawdled after doing the hard bit (turning his man), passed laterally, usually to Milner on the right wing, and the air went out of our play again.

But these three players hold such promise (four and five if you include the Lallana and Origi, who both did well when they came on). It seems to me unimaginable that Klopp won't get something special out of them next season.

Good post Yorky.

Henderson is a big issue. It'll be one of Klopp's first major calls to drop him as a regular next season. Especially when you consider he is captain.

Offline Ale-lujah! Ale-lujah!

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #22 on: March 1, 2016, 11:31:14 am »
The thing that disappoints me the most about our performance is our sloppiness on the ball and has concerned me all season. I am somewhat left bewildered that this team played under a Brendan Rodgers era that supposedly focused on keeping possession yet we surrender it so easily.

Despite me thinking initially that it was down to nerves of the Cup Final in-front of a bumper crowd, retrospectively the day at Wembley was to be no different to the same shortcomings that we have had all season in our squad and starting XI as a whole.

We are a team of work horses and when we play with Henderson Can & Milner they are much of a muchness. Off of the ball they are brilliant, and to a degree in the final third our pressing was good but there is no point turning over the ball into our possession if we are going to surrender it straight back to the opposition and when in this case, the opposition is Manchester City with players of the irk that they have they will inevitably use these turn overs to hit us on the break.

So, after the final whistle and all said and done I have been left with the same frustrations as I have been for a lot of 2016 so far.


* How can our team be so sloppy on the ball? It may be that we have a high percentage of pass accuracy but that % tends to be in our third. When we approach the middle and final third and the area is a little congested we seem to lose the ball, A LOT. It's very infuriating to see this happen.



This nails it for me.

If 90% of your attacks fizzle out high up the pitch with a sloppily misplaced pass or cross with much of your defense stranded upfield leaving you prone time after time to the counter then it follows you're gonna have more than your fair share of heartache against decent counter attacking opposition
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 01:10:43 am by Ale »

Offline No666

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #23 on: March 1, 2016, 11:41:00 am »
Yorky's post is the one bit of enjoyment I've had from the game.

Offline ahfolk79

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #24 on: March 1, 2016, 12:12:00 pm »
arse.

there endeth my tactical analysis of a match that was there for the taking by either team.

All our positives and all our faults were there on display yesterday for all to see. City should've put it to bed with Young Master Sterling and his 1872 mutton chops. Is he on a bet to have the silliest hair and beard combo in the world or something? Anyway they didn't, and we couldn't either.


hey ho.

I also wondered about this during the game. I know I’m getting old and am out of touch with style and all that but Jesus Christ does he not have anyone close to him who can take him aside and tell him he looks like a prize wally? I remember Jason Lee getting slaughtered for his pineapple head hair. I think Sterling is in similar territory. There you go: some invaluable tactical analysis for the round table.

Sorry.
"He’s not so much a player I can really take responsibility for. I’d have to share the responsibility for Joe, less so than for people like [Christian] Poulsen, [Raul] Meireles and [Paul] Konchesky, who are players I was quite happy to bring to the club."

Roy feeling justifiably smug about the powerhouses he snatched from under the noses of Barca

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #25 on: March 1, 2016, 02:07:17 pm »
I also wondered about this during the game. I know I’m getting old and am out of touch with style and all that but Jesus Christ does he not have anyone close to him who can take him aside and tell him he looks like a prize wally? I remember Jason Lee getting slaughtered for his pineapple head hair. I think Sterling is in similar territory. There you go: some invaluable tactical analysis for the round table.

Sorry.



;D
Yep.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #26 on: March 1, 2016, 03:29:42 pm »
Henderson has a lot of strengths as well, but yeah he's too nervous under pressure. Let's not forget he has had good point stats for a midfielder, scoring much more than for instance Lallana who is a pure attacking player.
I think the problem is that we now have three players (Can, Milner and Henderson) in our attack who can't turn or create space for themselves. Lucas and Gerrard, very slow players, just don't need that time because they know what to do with the ball before they get it. Gerrard was skilled enough to ping 30-yard passes with his weak foot, under pressure - Henderson can't do that. Milner is even worse in that role.
I think we can have one player like that, think Kuyt under Rafa. Those runs into the box are very valuable. But we need someone more skilled in central midfield. I vote for Coutinho.

Offline chanti

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #27 on: March 1, 2016, 03:46:09 pm »
Well said Ycuzz

Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #28 on: March 2, 2016, 01:32:25 pm »
It was all set up for me yet again. Just like in 2012 I was in India, having to watch it at night rather than in the afternoon.
Again my Brother-in-law had to go out and wasn't around to watch it/drink with me.
Again the first 5-10 mins are good from our point of view
Again the rest wasn't great.
Again we concede first
Again we go to ET and pens and its gone midnight and everyone else has fallen asleep

A lot of the comments have centred around the midfield and I would tend to agree. We currently have nobody that can dominate a game and set the tone for the game. Can will do do this in time but he is a long way from doing that. For me Hendo & Milner are just a bit too samey to play together but we do have a lack of options at the moment. The big minus for both of them is that their passing (esp long range) is well below their normal level. The less said about Milner's set piece disease the better. Obviously Allen is an option but I don't know how fit he is at the moment.

In the end, the game changed on that mistake by Mig. It had been a fairly even game until then and whilst he made a good save from Aguero in the first half and subsequently made more great saves afterwards the error count is just too high for him to justify being no1 beyond this season.

After that, we were destroyed on the counter so we have to give the whole team credit for hanging in there and taking it to ET.

With Sakho going off early it really did mess up our chances of freshening things up. Origi showed enough to justify coming on and I'm sure Sturridge would have come off as well but Firmino was well off the pace so had to come off. If only Origi's header was a couple of inches away from the keeper, we could have done it.

Still reeling from the pens, thought we would do it, esp after the smiles and being in front after the 1st round of pens. I didn't see us missing 3 out of 4, totally against all (recent) past performances. I guess the issue with having peno takers who have missed pens as many as they've scored like Coutinho and Lallana means that you are always at risk of them missing again. Assuming Milner was no 5, Hendo, our captain and one of our regular peno takers should have been taking one.

In the end, I don't think the loss tells us anything more than we didn't already know about the team in that we need more quality. In terms of the performance, well I'd say that we've only performed well once in a final the last decade or so and that was in 2007 and like today, the opposition had enough quality to beat us.
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Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Round Table: League Cup Final.
« Reply #29 on: March 2, 2016, 02:04:41 pm »
I've mentioned in another thread that this kind of felt like the end of the road. It could so easily have been the start of the road had we won. But we didn't. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Jurgen Klopp is a big game type of guy. Really big games. I also have absolutely no doubt that he now knows that not everyone in the team is a big game type of guy. To hear him fire them up before the penalties - that guttural, death metal roar - was inspiring. You could feel the energy blasting out of him. So for the penalties to be such a farcical affair was just heartbreaking.

But we shouldn't have even needed to go to penalties. I've said it many times before, City are not actually that great a team. They have a couple of standout individuals, but man for man we can pretty much keep up with them. And on Sunday, they didn't really play that well. Just because a player cost £45M, it doesn't mean they are automatically a world class player (take note Mr Sterling, you're nowhere near the finished article yet). But for some reason it seems that just because City have rich owners they are thought of automatically as the best team. What a load of bollocks. The fear that accompanies these thoughts worms its way through your head, and before you've kicked a ball you just know, just know, that it'll go tits up at some point.

This in turn affects the decision making on the pitch. Hendo would make a fucking great rugby league player I reckon, everything sideways and backwards. Gerrard was feared the world over because he didn't give a flying fuck who you were, he was charging at you all guns blazing. The decision making is our weakness, and Klopp is going on about this time and time again. People talk about respecting the opposition. Fuck the opposition, they're there to be beaten. You think Leicester have been respecting their opposition this year? No way. They've been sticking two fingers up and attacking from the off. No pretty play, no fucking about. To paraphrase Sir Bob, stick the ball in the net and we'll worry about the rest later.

Which brings me back to my original point. It felt like the beginning of the end on Sunday, most certainly for a good number of the players in the squad. I sense an utter bloodbath in the summer. For Klopp to install his heavy metal football he needs to remove the ballerinas of the Rodgers era. Ian Ayre is sure going to be racking up his Avios points come July 1st. Ironically I sense that one of our longest serving players may end up being the continuity from one philosophy to the next. Lucas should never play in midfield again, his future is at the back. Many of us had raised eyebrows when Carra made the move back 10 yards - Lucas might just have extended his stay with us for another few years to come. The same can't be said for many of the others though, most notably Christian Benteke. I also have a feeling that we'll have a new captain next season, as injury is robbing Hendo of being able to transition from international class to world class. If the links with certain German players are to be believed, his time may well be up.

Anyway, let's enjoy the rematch tonight, time to ruin their league chances.

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