Author Topic: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.  (Read 25352 times)

Offline Hinesy

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RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« on: October 5, 2013, 05:15:59 pm »
Plus ca change? First half of terrific-ness and second half of less so-ness... Goals scored (Gerrard on 99 in the PL now is it?) and let in...

I wonder what we can put about the match, we should be beating the likes of Palace at Anfield, we should be settling in, but how did the formation work with Lucas suspended? How much did we miss him? or is our vulnerability down the wings more the problem?

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #1 on: October 5, 2013, 07:19:49 pm »
Two league games with 3 at the back, 2 up top; two league games won 3-1. So much for it being too defensive. And let's be honest here, if our players had taken chances instead of being all "look how we're all doing this for the team" thing, Suarez and Sturridge should've had a brace each. Credit to their keeper though, who saved a couple of good shots from the pair.

I bloody love the 3 at the back, as most of you know by now, but I don't think it could be more suited to our new squad. Skrtel has not looked as "comfortable" in our backline since his pre-injury days, Toure retains his influence at the back and is encouraging our players to play out of the back more. Mignolet looks considerably more composed too with the added numbers to pass to as well. Getting Suarez and Sturridge closer to the opposition's goal, with Suarez's work rate and Sturridge's pace it's had an immidiate impact. Teams don't want to get exposed to that. It's a lot easier for our overworked midfielders to live with when they see teams back 5-10 yerds deeper than they did last season. You give Gerrard that extra second on the ball because you see Suarez out the corner of your eye.


There isn't really much to say that hasn't been said already. We had won after half an hour. We never got out of first gear in the second half, much like in every game of the season. But so fucking what? Sitting top of the table, knowing we still have all that left in our tank once we find a way to tap into it. Well there isn't much you can say. Just sit back and enjoy another 3 points picked up.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #2 on: October 5, 2013, 08:15:38 pm »
Defeat's always bring much more interesting round tables but I wouldnt say im too cut up about it.

The formation is great, on the face of it it suits us down to the ground. It gets Suarez and Sturridge both on the pitch, both central, both scoring. Which is arguably the most important thing for us to get right. It get's a level of defensive solidity that we haven't see with just the 2 CBs. It lets Johnson (eventually) and Cissoko/Enrique go forward and cause a lot of damage. And Coutinho in the place of Moses would add another element you feel.

In short it ticks many boxes. I hope we persevere with it.

The one thing the system does appear to fix is that of the CMs. Lucas and Gerrard still didnt look comfortable together last week. This time out we had Hendo in place of Lucas, and I thought he did a bang up job personally. Perhaps through nothing more than just being able to run. Its basic, and elementary but it shone through. He was here there and everywhere. He looked so much better than Lucas has. The balance seemed to be there to a greater extent.

Palace's quality being an obvious caveat to that, but Id hope to see Hendo tried there against better opposition to get a greater sense of whether or not its a goer.

In terms of the match, we had it won half an hour in and took the rest of the game off. Fair enough, we still won. This was a second half stand off unlike the others, this was conservation rather than capitulation.

Lets hope now that they all come back from the internationals fit and healthy. And we're still top of the league upon their return.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2013, 10:56:12 pm by Hinesy »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #3 on: October 6, 2013, 11:12:36 am »
we looked very good in the final third but didn't capitalise on all of our chances again

Mignolet looked good again

we conceeded from a set piece again

our second half performance lacked intensity and purpose again

Sterling looked like he needed to improve again

Moses played well for 45 minutes but showed he's not a no 10 again

we allowed a poor team into the game again

we won this time and Henderson played well in a central role
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #4 on: October 6, 2013, 02:26:06 pm »
We won't face an easier game all season.
The sight of Marouane Chamakh (with his "I'm not going bald honestly" haircut) leading the line is enough to gladden the heart of any centre back. We had three happy centre backs. Sure enough Chamakh had a pal called Jerome, but Jerome always looks like he's won a magazine competition to play 90 minutes in the Premier League. He didn't last 90 minutes and the lad who replaced him, Dwight Gayle, at least gave our defence something to think about for twenty minutes - including yet another set piece goal. Palace came to....to do what? It was hard to figure out. It wasn't exactly all out defence, but it wasn't attack either. Mainly they came to give the ball away. It seemed that Holloway had not watched any of Liverpool's previous games this season. There was no pressing on our defence, and therefore no attempt to make us hit long. They gave the midfield time on the ball and seemed content to let us build leisurely from the back. We were pretty ordinary at doing that, but at least it meant we could stroll through the game once we were a goal up. Easy peasy. We won't face an easier game all season. Unless it's Palace away. I like Holloway.

He's going to get his team relegated.

Moses was impressive
Our best player in the first half and the best game he's played for us yet. It's the speed in alliance with the strength. Once he decides to go there's not much a defender can do to stop him. He had three or so surging runs yesterday and they all broke various Palace lines (such as they were) to disorganise the pitch. The run from right to left which culminated in his curved pass out to Suarez and, eventually, our opening goal typified the man's performance. He's Dirk Kuyt except with pace, vision and technique. He'll score too. He hit the bar and the match commentator said it was an incredible miss. But it wasn't. You saw it in slow motion and in the milli-second Moses had to react he somehow re-balanced his body to redirect the ball off his lower leg towards the goal. It screamed technique.

The Crowd's quiet isn't it? Bloody 'Ell!
All quiet on the Anfield front again. The new players these days make polite noises about the famous LIverpool atmosphere. But it's nothing really. It used to be. But not any more.

Why you shouldn't HOOF it
The first goal. It started with Enrique pegged back by his corner flag. The weak-minded among us yelled 'Get Rid!'. The good-willed but unconvinced didn't yell it but certainly thought it. Enrique though sold a little dummy to the man pressing him and played it laterally along the touchline to Sakho instead who then spread the ball to the right-hand side. Sterling and Moses then took up the running. The ball got transferred back to the left where Enrique now found himself hitting the other byline and pulling the ball back for Luis Suarez. Number 7 performed a magic trick and placed it in the back of the red nets. That's why you shouldn't hoof it.

Why you should HOOF it
Then Enrique got the ball again - not so pegged back this time but under a bit of pressure. Helped by Skrtel who seemed momentarily joined at the hip of his colleague Enrique turned on the ball and whacked it up the left wing into the channel. Sturridge collected and found himself facing the last defender and also facing right way. I said to myself 'Goal' (honest I did!). He had a such lot to do still but my money would always be on Sturridge on a one-on-one, no matter how far away from the goals he was. The shot though was fantastic. He has that modern way of shooting - the follow-through sees both legs way off the ground so as to generate top spin and keep the ball down.

As for Enrique's hoof. It's not always a bad thing to hit long when you have someone of Sturridge's quality. Like Fulham away last year when Sturridge collected in a similar position (except on the right). If you can release Sturridge in lots of space in the opposing half there's a good chance of a Liverpool goal.

Sturridge and Suarez will get better
There was some lovely stuff between the two, especially in the first 30 minutes. Back-heels, blind passes, dummies and what not. Not all of them came off. But that's ok. Risk is part of the attackers' kit - or should be. Palace's defence won't be the last to be be freaked out by the two best attackers in the league this season.

Going back to Enrique
Inspirational one moment. Utter crap the next. Who can figure him out? I can't.

Henderson in the middle
He had a good game but no one should get carried away. The best thing he did - and he did it all afternoon - was press high and win important ball in the Palace half. But as said above Palace didn't bother to press our midfield for some reason and for that reason the jury's still out on whether he can play in the centre. I watched him carefully on replay. He was tidy in possession, though twice as many of his passes went backwards or sideways than forwards (40 to 20). That doesn't mean a great deal, I admit, since the square ball or even the backwards ball can be the right ball. But there was none of the sharp, incisive forward passing you get from Lucas. It was Gerrard who was making the telling passes yesterday, not Hendo. I also noted that Henderson only turned on 5 passes from his defenders or goalkeeper. And that was no surprise. First because it was Gerrard who was making himself available for a pass and linking play between defence, midfield and attack. Second, because Hendo wasn't. It wasn't just that he was reluctant to turn on the ball. He was reluctant to make himself available for a pass in the first place. He played the central midfield role in the way that Spearing would play it not Lucas.  Watch it. He points a lot to tell his central defenders where to pass, but he's not interested in getting a pass himself. At one point Sakho ignored his pointing and simply passed to Henderson himself because he was in loads of space. The ball went straight back.

You can get away with that against Palace. Against other teams it won't be so easy. More courage on the ball is needed.

By the way Gerrard (MoM) showed loads.

Luis Alberto turns though
He's an exciting prospect. So smooth in possession. Unperturbed by tight marking. The little jink to get free of two markers and the cocky pass to Suarez in the 84th minute ought to have culminated in a fourth Liverpool goal. Sturridge hit the post with a beautifully crafted shot, but Luis had played the wrong ball. The thing should have gone back to Luis Alberto who, far from admiring his own handiwork by the corner flag, had charged into a prime shooting position. Do you think this lad played lots of 5-a-side when  he was growing up? I do.

Tackle of the game
Raheem Sterling on Puncheon in the 32nd minute - to set up yet another flowing move in a purple spell of football for the Reds.

Normally it's all over by October
Any hope of the title I mean. You look at the table and wonder if Liverpool can make up the 10 points on the leaders. That's a mark of progress since Rodgers took over. There's a bit of hope around.





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Offline Hinesy

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #5 on: October 6, 2013, 04:40:27 pm »
Bump!
Yep.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #6 on: October 6, 2013, 05:01:27 pm »
Outstanding analysis by yorkycopite!

Especially this part:

"Henderson in the middle
He had a good game but no one should get carried away. The best thing he did - and he did it all afternoon - was press high and win important ball in the Palace half. But as said above Palace didn't bother to press our midfield for some reason and for that reason the jury's still out on whether he can play in the centre. I watched him carefully on replay. He was tidy in possession, though twice as many of his passes went backwards or sideways than forwards (40 to 20). That doesn't mean a great deal, I admit, since the square ball or even the backwards ball can be the right ball. But there was none of the sharp, incisive forward passing you get from Lucas. It was Gerrard who was making the telling passes yesterday, not Hendo. I also noted that Henderson only turned on 5 passes from his defenders or goalkeeper. And that was no surprise. First because it was Gerrard who was making himself available for a pass and linking play between defence, midfield and attack. Second, because Hendo wasn't. It wasn't just that he was reluctant to turn on the ball. He was reluctant to make himself available for a pass in the first place. He played the central midfield role in the way that Spearing would play it not Lucas.  Watch it. He points a lot to tell his central defenders where to pass, but he's not interested in getting a pass himself. At one point Sakho ignored his pointing and simply passed to Henderson himself because he was in loads of space. The ball went straight back.

You can get away with that against Palace. Against other teams it won't be so easy. More courage on the ball is needed."




That's all for now.
« Last Edit: October 6, 2013, 05:04:03 pm by GrkStav »
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Offline macker71165

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #7 on: October 6, 2013, 05:13:06 pm »
 8)
Two league games with 3 at the back, 2 up top; two league games won 3-1. So much for it being too defensive. And let's be honest here, if our players had taken chances instead of being all "look how we're all doing this for the team" thing, Suarez and Sturridge should've had a brace each. Credit to their keeper though, who saved a couple of good shots from the pair.

I bloody love the 3 at the back, as most of you know by now, but I don't think it could be more suited to our new squad. Skrtel has not looked as "comfortable" in our backline since his pre-injury days, Toure retains his influence at the back and is encouraging our players to play out of the back more. Mignolet looks considerably more composed too with the added numbers to pass to as well. Getting Suarez and Sturridge closer to the opposition's goal, with Suarez's work rate and Sturridge's pace it's had an immidiate impact. Teams don't want to get exposed to that. It's a lot easier for our overworked midfielders to live with when they see teams back 5-10 yerds deeper than they did last season. You give Gerrard that extra second on the ball because you see Suarez out the corner of your eye.


There isn't really much to say that hasn't been said already. We had won after half an hour. We never got out of first gear in the second half, much like in every game of the season. But so fucking what? Sitting top of the table, knowing we still have all that left in our tank once we find a way to tap into it. Well there isn't much you can say. Just sit back and enjoy another 3 points picked up.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #8 on: October 6, 2013, 05:37:17 pm »

We won't face an easier game all season.


Or read a more trenchant analysis.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #9 on: October 6, 2013, 05:40:50 pm »
Top stuff from Yorky

I was thinking about the Zone 14 thread I started a couple of years ago.  One significant part of it talked about the attacking patterns of play of successful teams being in-to-out in the final third.  I think we're seeing this happening a lot more now.  Particularly those great long passes from Stevie in the right part of the pitch.  Like the one to Sturridge last week.

Part of what I saw from Henderson was a deferment of responsibility to Gerrard.  I can cope with that at the moment, although I do think Henderson has more in his locker than we are currently seeing.  His technique isn't as bad as people seem to think.  In fact I think it's one of his best attributes.

Offline Jizzinho

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #10 on: October 6, 2013, 05:43:10 pm »
I was impressed with the manager’s comments post-match. Although the result was the important thing we need to improve our level of performance. We picked the right formation to deal with Palace and also to maximise the quality of the players who were available.

First of all the positives.

Mignolet had another good game. He is commanding his area better as well as improving his distribution. After a couple of years being desensitised with Pepe’s ability to block shots, it’s a pleasant surprise to see our new keeper utilising his reactions. He will be worth a significant number of points this season. 

Sakho looks a perfect fit. Not only is he a beast physically but he has great passing stats and isn’t afraid to distribute the ball to the midfielders when they are under pressure. The more we are able to do this the better our chances of penetrating will be. He also offers goal threat in the form of his heading ability. He is the kind of defender you build a defence around.

Henderson played well in central midfield – he improved the tension in the midfield and allowed Stevie to provide his incisive passing range. Sterling also played well as the wingback and was identified by Holloway as one of the main reasons his team weren’t able to cope with us. Both these players have some adjustments to make in these positions but their performance was encouraging.

Although Enrique can occasionally appear brainless his delivery in the final third is improving and he seems to have a great understanding with Suarez. Hopefully if we can maintain our form he will improve the consistency of the better half of his play.

And finally, of course, the triumvirate of SMS have a good understanding and will only get better. I’m sure people will be writing lots about the strikers but Moses has fit in well and offers speed and strength in his game along with a good level of technical ability and a good understanding with the front two. He doesn’t appear to have Coutinho’s vision, adeptness or guile yet but I think he keeps possession better which is important in this system.

Which brings me on to the negatives.

I like the 1352; I have liked it since the days we played it under Evans. With the right personnel it can work out well in this league which is still generally based on a 442 or 4231 philosophy.

But it leaves us with some problems integrating our best players once everyone is fit.

Over the Summer, it seems clear that our recruitment policy has been to accrue the highest level of players we could and to build the system around them. Luckily there aren’t too many teams who use aggressive high quality wing-play so the traditional weakness of the formation can be patched up to a large degree.

The first problem though is that we have to assume that Gerrard will be playing in a deep-lying midfielder role for every single match that he is fit. If Lucas is to be included in the team therefore, we become too defensive for the majority of opponents as we have a two man shield in front of three centrebacks in the centre of the pitch but we have relatively little tension to press play later on in matches. Defending deeply can work as a strategy against the likes of Palace and Sunderland however teams like Arsenal will harry us in midfield and potentially cut us apart unless we can get on the front foot. The warning signs were there in the Southampton game.

In the most recent match, we seemed to look far more potent when we attempted to carry the ball to disrupt the opponents formation. Skrtel did this on occasion and it nearly led to a goal – but we need players who are able to do it more often,

Secondly, once Coutinho is back in the team, playing as a “10” he is a legitimate target for the opposition to double up on him and that will cut off a lot of the supply for the two strikers as he loses possession too easily in my opinion. Yes, he provides mind bending passes but there’s no point having an additional cannon up front if you can choke off the supply of ammunition. What usually happens in this circumstance is that Suarez gets frustrated and drops deeper which will affect his conversion rate the same way it was affected under Kenny.


In order to make the formation work, I would try Lucas as the central defender with Toure / Agger on one side and Sakho on the other. Henderson and Gerrard could then start in the middle with Moses ahead of them. After 60 minutes I’d pull Stevie off (and replace him with Lucas) and bring Coutinho on for Moses with another CB making up the back three. This would be a major change in our pattern of playing the captain but unless we countenance that there is no way to play the best team using this system.

Our overall progress will be limited by the fact this is another transitional season. Until we finish the campaign knowing our best style, formation and first team we’re not going to be able to make the final jump to maximising our resources.

EDIT:
/snip/
Part of what I saw from Henderson was a deferment of responsibility to Gerrard.  I can cope with that at the moment, although I do think Henderson has more in his locker than we are currently seeing.  His technique isn't as bad as people seem to think.  In fact I think it's one of his best attributes.


I was struck by Henderson' s post match interview:

"Going forward we were outstanding,  ...some of the stuff [the attacking players did]were fantastic, we see that every day in training, so it's nothing new to us really; so hopefully they can keep doing what they're doing and we can keep doing our job and supplying them and keeping clean sheets."

I don't know if this is a role he is being coached into but I would lke to see more offensive responsibility and verve taken by him.
« Last Edit: October 6, 2013, 05:51:08 pm by Jizzinho »

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #11 on: October 6, 2013, 05:59:58 pm »
By the way Gerrard (MoM) showed loads.

Agree with most of what you said, and the analysis is great, but I can't agree with that.

Stevie gave the ball away a lot yesterday, and while he did start a lot of our attacks, he just never seemed to have full control over the game for me.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #12 on: October 6, 2013, 06:02:28 pm »
I think this thread should have started with a mention of Ian Holloway singing YNWA along with the crowd, I was touched.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #13 on: October 6, 2013, 08:13:33 pm »
Moses was impressive
Our best player in the first half and the best game he's played for us yet. It's the speed in alliance with the strength. Once he decides to go there's not much a defender can do to stop him. He had three or so surging runs yesterday and they all broke various Palace lines (such as they were) to disorganise the pitch. The run from right to left which culminated in his curved pass out to Suarez and, eventually, our opening goal typified the man's performance. He's Dirk Kuyt except with pace, vision and technique. He'll score too. He hit the bar and the match commentator said it was an incredible miss. But it wasn't. You saw it in slow motion and in the milli-second Moses had to react he somehow re-balanced his body to redirect the ball off his lower leg towards the goal. It screamed technique.

Really good read as ever Yorky. I also like the look of Moses in this position we've adopted. He's there in the middle when one of Suarez or Sturridge drifts wide and it's working I think. But that miss you mentioned... that was the second time he stood still in the 6 yard box as if waiting for a bus that wasn't coming along any time soon. The first time was when Suarez scored - I only spotted it this morning on MoTD. I think he may have had his hands in the air as if to say 'I'm not interfering with play' or something - but will have to see it again. But why isn't he readying himself better for the chance that hit the bar? He was just doing nothing - mystifying. Safe to say I think Dirk would have buried that no problem ;)

And what did you think of Sterling's performance? I know his thread is ongoing, but I thought it was very encouraging, but others seem to be of the opinion that they never want to see him play there again. He had some duff moments yes, and one or two glaring ones, but after all that's gone on, the injuries, the off field stuff,age, game time, and experience in the wing-back role - I thought there was enough there to suggest he could be the number 2 to Glen Johnson in there, and we're all looking forward to having Glen back.

Really like this system, and wondered if we were going to see a 352 when we recruited the numbers we did in defence. It isn't a 352 of course, and glad to see Brendan clear that up in his post match interview (seeing people on here talk about 352 was starting to irritate me as much as seeing people constantly spell Gillett's name with an E. Brought the pedant out in me). But it's a clear 3412, and it's getting the very best out of Sturridge and Suarez - it just answers the 'problem' very well. And what I like about Sterling in there is for his angled runs towards the centre backs while Sturridge or Suarez drifts wide, opening spaces. And he can defend. He's a tough little bugger.


But all in all, it was a much needed performance in that first half. Could have doubled our goal tally over the full 90, and although the 2nd half was a bit duff, and although their goal did see my head in my hands rubbing my eyes and eyebrows, we rode it out quite comfortably in the end. I'd like to ride out these games more comfortably tho. With a goal say.


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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #14 on: October 6, 2013, 08:20:56 pm »
Agree with most of what you said, and the analysis is great, but I can't agree with that.

Stevie gave the ball away a lot yesterday, and while he did start a lot of our attacks, he just never seemed to have full control over the game for me.

IMO Gerrard wasn't MOTM but not because of his passing. His passing was fantastic. 85 passes with 87% accuracy is world class. It's a kind of passing performance Xavi or Schweinsteiger have.

We also had 62% possession as a team. That made me question exactly Rodgers' problem. He made it a point to criticise controlling of the game, and evidently he doesn't see control in simply terms of possession. If he did, then he's basically raised expectations to Barca levels.

I was really pleased for Henderson; he got a lot of touches and was everywhere defensively. The stars of the team were, for me, Suarez and Sturridge. As long as we score early goals like that we'll keep picking up lots of points.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #15 on: October 6, 2013, 08:27:54 pm »

And what did you think of Sterling's performance? I know his thread is ongoing, but I thought it was very encouraging, but others seem to be of the opinion that they never want to see him play there again. He had some duff moments yes, and one or two glaring ones, but after all that's gone on, the injuries, the off field stuff,age, game time, and experience in the wing-back role - I thought there was enough there to suggest he could be the number 2 to Glen Johnson in there, and we're all looking forward to having Glen back.

Yeah, I saw the game on a shitty stream originally and every time it flickered into life Sterling seemed to be making a mistake. Then I watched the whole thing properly this morning prepared for the worst since the balance of comment on this website was hugely against the lad. However....

I agree with you. He was actually pretty good. He clearly interpreted his manager's demands diligently and it was noticeable that he and Toure worked far more effectively than the left-hand side did when it came to doubling up on Palace's wide men (what the f*ck were henderson and Enrique doing in the first half - "You go for him/No you go/OK I'll go/No, leave him to me"). I was impressed yet again - as we all must be - by the lad's sheer speed, especially his speed off the mark. And although he made some poor choices pasing in-field he also did some great work in reading Sturridge's runs and in wriggling out of some tight defensive spots with the ball. Sturridge meanwhile failed to bring him into play several times when he might have done so.

I disagree, though, with your suggestion he could be Glen's number two. Perhaps he could do the job but only by neutering what's really impressive about his game. This is his attacking finesse and dribbling skills. I'm a big believer in Sterling. I find it hard to believe he's just 18. But now I'd like to see him act as if he was 16 again and show that fearlessness he first showed when he came into the team. He won't be able to do that at wing-back, for the simple reason that he's too disciplined to cut loose. Too often, yesterday, he refused to run beyond Moses or Suarez when they had possession. The one time he did in the first half, we actually got a pen.

I notice that some supporters - far wiser than me - have already written the lad off though. So take everything I say about the lad with a pinch of salt.

 
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Offline Koplord

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #16 on: October 6, 2013, 08:30:30 pm »
3-1 win and 3 points is never something to be disappointed about but i couldn't help but feel a little disappointed with the second half and complete drop in momentum. I can understand taking your foot off the gas but there was a change in mentality from front to back where players apart from Henderson , Toure , Sakho just seem to be lacklustre in their pressing and allowed palace that extra few seconds on the ball which allowed them to make space.

Even when we won the ball back any urgency or will to score seemed no existent at it was more a case of play it safe and keep the ball without threatening something that Rodgers was unhappy about so its obvious he hasn't told them to back off but the players are doing it of their own accord.

Anybody else think we aren't as fluid and as comfortable on the ball as we looked at the end of last season and in pre season ? We starting looking comfy in tight spaces but we now seem easily flustered once any pressure is put on the man with the ball. I also felt yesterday that midfield is still not right a few times especially early on palace broke through midfield and created a chance or half chance in 2-3 passes which I found quite worrying, whether that's a pressing issue or the fact that Moses isn't dropping into midfield and helping out enough defensively i don't know.

Sturridge & Suarez were outstanding  again and I can only imagine how much better it will be with Coutinho in behind them the same goes for seeing Johnson at RB. With everybody fit i think we have a few dilemmas in terms of formation do we go 433 with one of the SAS wide or do we continue with 3412 i thi k both formations have their own pros & cons.

Lastly a special mention for Henderson who was oustanding in midfield and my MOTM
« Last Edit: October 6, 2013, 08:32:18 pm by Koplord »
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #17 on: October 6, 2013, 08:37:27 pm »
Good point about Sterling, Yorky - I have noticed a few times this season he seems vigilant In trying to carry out the managers instructions, he seems to apply himself well for such a young age, and for a young guy with a perhaps questionable temperament he's making good progress in that area. Whether it's inhibited his natural game or it's just a blip in his attacking form remains to be seen. He's not going to turn into dirk all of a sudden, all graft and no burst of pace. Or, as you say, Glen Johnson, as his attacking qualities need to be applied.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #18 on: October 6, 2013, 08:43:16 pm »
The thing with Sterling for me is that I only ever went off what I saw in front of me. I have never seen him tearing apart sides at reserve and youth level, because I don't watch those games. So I only go off what I read in here and what a mate of mine (ex Liverpool scout no less) had to say about the lad. To me, he's very safe. You talk about "fearlessness" yorky, but I've never really seen that from the lad. Retains possession by cutting back and playing it to the fullback rather than attacking space or trying to trick his way past an opponent. Too timid to make a mistake or two. That's what I see. It's mature I guess - and there's definitely a time and a place for that - but you don't introduce a lad at 16 to be mature. You introduce him to do things nobody else in the team dare to, not because they're incapable but because they work off percentages.

I got criticised the other day for saying he lacked game intelligence. A lot of people took exception to that. Maybe I was harsh in that regard. But again, I'm judging him by the standards others have set. And his game intelligence and talent haven't made me once think we have a player here who will definitely play in our first team regularly in the future.

Again, that's probably unfair. But I always a judge our players by how I'd react if they were playing for somebody else. Would I be scared at the sight of Raheem Sterling warming up or in the XI? No I wouldn't. We'll see how he develops. I guess a bit of middle-ground would be for the best for everybody's sake.
« Last Edit: October 6, 2013, 08:44:49 pm by Garstonite »

Offline BazC

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #19 on: October 6, 2013, 08:51:52 pm »
Good reading these threads as always - yorky nails it for me. I'm only in here because I wanted to "+1" the Moses shout. I thought he was fantastic, the way he carries the ball - strength, power, shields it well, and more often than not will get the pass away and keep the ball moving when the disorder's been created. He's playing in an unnatural role for me, but that's because I like to see players in that area have more finesse - Coutinho will revel in that space when defenders are preoccupied with Sturridge and Suarez as well.

The point to consider for me is if Moses has a place in a fully fit first team. Especially if we're playing the same formation. I'd have liked to have seen him play as one of the wingbacks - and I think Rodgers showed yesterday that he has no qualms about playing a predominantly attack minded player in that position. But then it was Palace at home- quite possibly the easiest game we had on paper this season. Perhaps if Coutinho was fit, then we'd have seen that. Either way, it's a decent option to bring off the bench.

All in all, a good first half, but it seemed like a stroll for the players. The just saw the game out after going 3 up. It would have been nice to at least not concede (would have been top of the table going into another international break). Interesting to hear about Rodgers' post game comments though, and I read earlier that he took his frustration out on some water bottles when we gave the ball away in the middle of the park (we were 3-0 up at the time).

There's still a lot of balance to be found in this team. We have a handful of first team players out still - at least 2 who are nailed on to start every game they're fit, in Johnson and Coutinho. But it's getting there. I just hope we start finding it soon, because there are some tough games coming up.

The big questions are still in midfield for me. When we talk of keeping 'control' of a game, though, it's as much about our lads putting up the fight as much as it is about the opponents being up for one. But we haven't yet fielded our strongest attacking line up - and I wonder as much about our ability to impose on midfield as I do about the opposition's willingness, when they have Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez potentially being left with space if their aggressive pressing doesn't come to anything. I mean you could see straightaway from Suarez' opening few minutes this season that defenders just have to think twice when he's around. It'll be even more so the case when Coutinho can line up with those 2.

When you have Gerrard who always looks for the first time pass, Lucas who plays the tidy balls forward and also Sakho in that area who always looks for the pass forward through zones, then it's something the opposition have to think about. You can press our midfield, but if we win the ball back you're suddenly faced with a counter attack of 3 of the best attackers in the league having a shit load of space on your own goal.

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Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #20 on: October 6, 2013, 08:56:07 pm »
I think it was a very important win, every win is but I think it´s exactly this sort of games which will make the difference compared to last season and the one before. The gap we created in terms of points gained so far compared to teams competing for top 4 (all those supposed to be "easy wins") will be important later on and for that I am very happy with the win.

Overall this game again proves that Rodgers tactial set up and the team do fit together well if the players are willing to provide the basics for the entire 90 minutes. It will be enough to win the majority of the games with Suarez and Sturridge on the pitch, the ones who make the difference while the rest more or less provides them a platform to shine. There was a lot of talk about our possession game, death by football etc. but as it looks our squad still not ready for this, still lacking quality, the necessary progress in training...

In this respect, a lot of players did well, Sterling with a mature performance here, Henderson working tireless to close the gaps, Moses with a great performance being the link up between midfield and attack and our defending line showing top concentration during the entire 90 minutes of the game. It´s these little margins of effort in addition which will win us games this season with Suarez and Sturridge showing world class on top of that.

Will this be enough though to play the way Rodgers sort of promised and probably already hoped for? I don´t think so and his post game interview gives an indication that he shifted the next steps in terms of progress towards "deathbyfootball©brendanrodgers until the next transfer window.

« Last Edit: October 6, 2013, 08:58:35 pm by steveeastend »
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Offline Tony19:6

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #21 on: October 6, 2013, 09:07:26 pm »
On the Sterling debate, I didn't think he looked comfortable in the RWB position at all. In fact I felt sorry for him as it looked totally unnatural for the lad. My call at HT was to bring Alberto on for Sterling and play Moses in that slot, with Alberto coming in at #10

I felt Moses had a very good first 45, very direct, but his inclination was to drift out wide and cut in rather than to play with the guile I'd expect from a number 10. So a wide berth would have suited him more.
 
Seemed to take our foot off the gas 2nd half, but then again the match was won, having said that who knows what goal diff will mean come the end of the season?
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #22 on: October 6, 2013, 09:24:47 pm »
I notice that some supporters - far wiser than me - have already written the lad off though. So take everything I say about the lad with a pinch of salt.

;D

For the point about him being the number 2 to Johnson in this 3412 shape, I see what you're saying about it limiting what he is good at, but this is a shape that might have legs this season. Now he could play in the Moses role perhaps, but you'd imagine those opportunities would be very limited if we stayed in this shape (which I don't think we will - we'll have periods playing it, and periods not I think). And I'd prefer Alberto in that role.

After yesterday, what started to intrigue me was Sterling right wing back, and Johnson left wing back. I think that might be interesting.

Offline stockdam

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #23 on: October 6, 2013, 09:51:59 pm »
This is going to be a boring post as the match was quite boring. Well I mean boring in that by half time the match was over. In the past we would have gone in 0-0 after hitting the post 10 times etc.

Sturridge and Suarez are the business together. They will get better as a unit which is going to be very nice to watch.

We were tight at the back and Sakho is now looking like he's settling in. Toure and Skrtel also had good games.

The only downside to me was that we seemed to stop playing the passing game after we went 3 up and we then tried flicks and the crowd-pleasing passes that never worked. We started to play like individuals show-boating rather than a team.......we lost our discipline.

Instead of scoring 4 or 5 we let them score. The result was never in doubt but we should have won by more than 2 goals.

The result is that we are sitting 2nd on goals scored instead of sitting top on goal difference.

Winning when not fully hitting our stride is nice though and we have started off as well as anyone could have hoped.

Rodgers needs to get the team playing better as a unit (yikes we are top of the league and he's asking us to play better).

I can see us pressing on from here as all of the players in and around the first team will want to play every week.
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Offline Prof

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #24 on: October 6, 2013, 11:35:30 pm »
I was thinking about the Zone 14 thread I started a couple of years ago.  One significant part of it talked about the attacking patterns of play of successful teams being in-to-out in the final third.  I think we're seeing this happening a lot more now.  Particularly those great long passes from Stevie in the right part of the pitch.  Like the one to Sturridge last week.

Shamelessly I've dug it out as I think it's a significant topic.

Research carried out looking at the style of play of successful teams at the highest level indicates that the best teams construct attacks in an outside-inside-outside fashion, where the ball is played wide as it enters the attacking third, whereas less successful teams play up the wings into the final third before crossing the ball.



If a ball is played wide late, it could go to either wing, which means the man who then crosses it is likely to have more time and space.  It also means that the opposite full-back is less likely to be in position to cover the back post, and the centre backs less likely to be in position to clear the cross.


Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #25 on: October 6, 2013, 11:43:35 pm »
There we a few interesting points to consider in this game.
1. Henderson in midfield
2. Sterling as a Wingback
3. Moses as a no.10
4. Our setup at corners

On Hendo you'd have to say it's worth another look. He had amazing numbers both defensively and in terms of keeping possession. Could be a bit more ambitious with his passing though.

On Sterling at wingback, to me a least, it looks a viable option. I wouldn't want him up against Hazard for instance or Baines but a team that doesn't threaten much down the left side he's a decent option. That brings me to the question of what role then do Wisdom and Kelly play? If this formation continues, for me, they both need to go on loan or be sold.

Moses at no.10 I don't think is great, it's working okay because he's very talented but he's a square peg for a round hole. I think there's a bit of a dead area between Gerrard and the strikers that were not using effective, I think it's largely because Moses is too much a winger/striker. Right now though our goals are coming from attacks down the flank. We need a proper playmaker. If we not happy with Alberto backing up Coutinho then someone else. I'd rather see Moses in his preferred position as a striker or winger.

Our setup at corners needs to be adjusted, and I'll count this last free kick as a sort of corner. We have three CB's, it should be a strength but instead we look vulnerable. Personally I think Rodgers needs to come up with a plan that gets Sakho, Toure and Skrtel defending the most dangerous spots, that may mean a switch to zonal marking.
« Last Edit: October 6, 2013, 11:48:05 pm by DanA »
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Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #26 on: October 6, 2013, 11:50:00 pm »
I think it was a relatively solid team performance. Sure, our game dwindled in the second half, but as soon as Gayle got the goal, we kicked ourselves up the arse and we were much improved. I think our chronic second half drop off was more to do with the game being so comprehensively won in the first half that the players really were fine with how it stood. Yes, we should have went for more & tried to improve our goal difference. Brendan seemed a bit displeased in interviews and I'm sure he'll be looking to improve our passing and control over a game, going by what he said.

MOTM was Henderson for me, but I think Sakho & Toure both had excellent games. Only performance that really stuck out as a sore thumb was Enrique, for me. He was good in the first half, but his play in the second was woeful, and he was probably the most guilty player on the pitch in terms of sloppiness in our second half play. I've criticized him the past couple games, and I don't dislike the lad or anything, but it's hard to imagine him as a starting fullback in a Brendan Rodgers' side; he's just so brainless and in a 3-5-2, or in any system Rodgers wants us to play, the fullbacks are so important, especially going forward. He's solid enough defensively, inconsistent in the final third, and poor in the middle third when it comes to bringing the ball up the pitch. He'd be a solid squad player, but I think he's due an upgrade next summer. And I hope we at least give Cissokho a run in the side when he's back fit.
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Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #27 on: October 6, 2013, 11:57:05 pm »
Moses at no.10 I don't think is great, it's working okay because he's very talented but he's a square peg for a round hole. I think there's a bit of a dead area between Gerrard and the strikers that were not using effective, I think it's largely because Moses is too much a winger/striker. Right now though our goals are coming from attacks down the flank. We need a proper playmaker. If we not happy with Alberto backing up Coutinho then someone else. I'd rather see Moses in his preferred position as a striker or winger.

Wouldn't mind Brendan trying Gerrard in the hole behind Suarez and Sturridge in a 3-5-2 for, like, sixty minutes or something - at least while Coutinho is out and Alberto is being managed carefully. Throw Lucas in the deep midfield two and either pair him with Allen or Henderson, and have one of them come on for Gerrard. Won't happen though, but one can dream...

Oh and Alberto looked silky when he came on. I don't understand why people keep bringing up his "lack of pace" - yes, he's not the fastest, but he's got such a nice touch, great close control & game intelligence. "Pace" is simply a bonus when you have these other attributes, in my mind. Plus, I'd imagine he'll end up a bit deeper: I could see him being molded into an Alonso-type!  :D
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Offline Danny_

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #28 on: October 7, 2013, 12:23:03 am »
We showed Palace no respect whatsoever and it paid off.  Rodgers is clearly an astute tactician and he played a formation that could have been exploited by a better team.  However, he banked on the fact that Palace were not that team and he was dead right.  The formation we played allowed us to go for the throat from the start and Palace playing 4-3-3 played into our hands.  It was a fantastic win, the sort of thing that Rafa used to be amazing at doing.

The one two punch of the first two goals that came in quick succession were as much a result of our playing an expansive attacking system as they were down to the individual brillance of Suarez and Sturridge.  I continue to be impressed by Rodgers and I loved the fact that he was clearly disappointed by our failure to pass the ball well in the second half (again shades of Rafa and actually any great manager - never happy).

However,  I don't imagine we will play Sterling at wing back again.  He did okay but they were clearly exploiting the space down the right and a better team could have punished us. 

So, it was almost a perfect weekend for us.  Only thing that could have made it better was if Arsenal had lost but we continue our good start and need to keep it going for as long as possible.  With a huge game against Arsenal coming up, it will be important that we keep progressing.  So far so good.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #29 on: October 7, 2013, 12:30:15 am »
Yorky summed it up


"We won't face an easier game all season. "

Palace is one of the worse teams in PL to grace Anfield.
Theres nothing in that team

But we didn't capitalize on it to up our goals for.

The Liverpool team of the 90s would have Caned then HARD!
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #30 on: October 7, 2013, 12:31:26 am »
Yorky summed it up


"We won't face an easier game all season. "

Palace is one of the worse teams in PL to grace Anfield.
Theres nothing in that team

But we didn't capitalize on it to up our goals for.

The Liverpool team of the 90s would have Caned then HARD!

I'm not so sure. In fact, I think that team might have snatched a draw from the jaws of a win against Palace, and then tank Arsenal 3-0 at the end of the month.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #31 on: October 7, 2013, 12:38:50 am »
mY MISS   80s

End of the 80s to be exact   :)

That team might have been too hot for even Bayern and Barca to handle :D
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Offline jckliew

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #32 on: October 7, 2013, 12:43:53 am »
That team might have been too hot for even Bayern and Barca to handle :D

 :thumbup

Point is those great teams just do not back off after scoring goals

They continue to cane you

rubbed yer face into the dirt

then skin yer

if you are like a visiting team like Palace at Anfield.
That's why teams fear to thread onto the Anfield pitch.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #33 on: October 7, 2013, 12:48:35 am »
:thumbup

Point is those great teams just do not back off after scoring goals

They continue to cane you

rubbed yer face into the dirt

then skin yer

if you are like a visiting team like Palace at Anfield.
That's why teams fear to thread onto the Anfield pitch.

True. But they were 2-3 years in the making (86-87, 87-88, 88-89), and were built on the back of league title success since the early 80's. This team is coming from a different perspective, and needs some time (although don't forget, we put a few teams to the sword last season too)
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #34 on: October 7, 2013, 01:30:30 am »
Luis Alberto near the touchline with one or two players trying to close him down is a bit of "football porn", isn't it?

In general, any player who has close ball control and keeps his cool and wits about him in those situations can make up for a quite a few relative deficiencies in other areas (within reason, obviously).
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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #35 on: October 7, 2013, 01:48:44 am »
True. But they were 2-3 years in the making (86-87, 87-88, 88-89), and were built on the back of league title success since the early 80's. This team is coming from a different perspective, and needs some time (although don't forget, we put a few teams to the sword last season too)

aye, but how do you think one gets that sort of mentality into as team? (not rhetorical) Our great teams, and more recently theirs, have been excellent at proceeding under the "we are better than you and will now prove it" and not "we are better than you across a season" or "we are better than you across a game", but "we are better than you at every moment"— 4-nil up with 5 minutes to go and there's a fifty-fifty ball and we've already won the league, I'm having it because "I'm better than you always and at every moment and I'm showing you and everyone else how clear it is".  You get it, obviously, in individual players. Souness, Keane, Stevie when in the mood, Suarez is one of those, but how do you get it through a team? Is it a reflection of the manager's personality—Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, Mourinho?

If you can manage it, it removes a lot of situational pressure I think—it matters less that all your rivals lost yesterday and if only you win today you can really put your foot on their collective neck (in which way we have so often fallen on our faces these last few years), and it leads to far fewer stumbles against lower teams. United often have had trouble with their main rivals even in their league dominance, and I recall some of our great teams periodically going through bad patches against them too, but they, and we, were extraordinary against lesser teams whether or not we were also managing it against peers, and I think it has much to do with that sort of mentality. Can Peters help with this?

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #36 on: October 7, 2013, 02:12:48 am »
aye, but how do you think one gets that sort of mentality into as team? (not rhetorical) Our great teams, and more recently theirs, have been excellent at proceeding under the "we are better than you and will now prove it" and not "we are better than you across a season" or "we are better than you across a game", but "we are better than you at every moment"— 4-nil up with 5 minutes to go and there's a fifty-fifty ball and we've already won the league, I'm having it because "I'm better than you always and at every moment and I'm showing you and everyone else how clear it is".  You get it, obviously, in individual players. Souness, Keane, Stevie when in the mood, Suarez is one of those, but how do you get it through a team? Is it a reflection of the manager's personality—Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, Mourinho?

If you can manage it, it removes a lot of situational pressure I think—it matters less that all your rivals lost yesterday and if only you win today you can really put your foot on their collective neck (in which way we have so often fallen on our faces these last few years), and it leads to far fewer stumbles against lower teams. United often have had trouble with their main rivals even in their league dominance, and I recall some of our great teams periodically going through bad patches against them too, but they, and we, were extraordinary against lesser teams whether or not we were also managing it against peers, and I think it has much to do with that sort of mentality. Can Peters help with this?

Rome wasn't built in a day, as you allude too that sort of mentality comes from belief but I belive that sort of belief has to be in not just in your own abilities but in the whole team. And it can't be faked, it must be earnt.

In that regard we've taken steps forward, huge steps forward. Certainly we have the right to have a lot of belief in the SAS partnership and I think we're getting there with our central defenders too. The thing is we've still got a ways to go. The 3-4-2-1 is still only in it's infancy for us and we've got some issues with our corners that needs sorting. We've probably not quite got the right makeup for the squad in terms of wingbacks and midfielders but like I said huge steps forward have been made.
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Offline skooma

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #37 on: October 7, 2013, 04:29:26 am »
Love it love it love it.

Before these kind of games would be draws or losses. They wouldn't have any heart at all. Now they're actually up for it and take it seriously. Really enjoying this and hope it continues.

Offline dumaten

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #38 on: October 7, 2013, 10:49:32 am »
On Moses at "number 10" I prefer the system this way rather than a midfielder in that spot. That player has to make the formation shift between 3-5-2 and 3-4-3 during the course of the game. A midfielder in there would make it really predictable, especially as a lot of teams are playing two deep central midfielders with the intent of shutting down supply lines from a traditional attacking midfielder. The ability of Moses to push forward or wide, and to carry the ball rather than just pick a pass is important as it allows us to adjust tactically to what the opposition is doing. The best example of this would be our second goal at sunderland where Moses drops out of their well organised midfield cover and isolates their right full back, with their left full back up field each of our front three are now one-on-one with a defender.

The other thing Moses offers is strength, again in that congested area of the park, to get on the ball and hold it under pressure back to goal.

The movement out wide and strength showed in the first goal, a great move it was too, from our own corner flag shifting right and then Moses' ball carrying drawing in their midfield opening up the space to Suarez and Enrique down the left. On the other hand, a lot of attacks seemed to break down through Moses misdirecting or not correctly weighting a pass.

Coutinho I think can play this role, he's certainly much better than Moses at picking a pass, and he can drift wide as a left sided forward. Only question is whether he can be shut down in the centre by strong DMs.

On Henderson: I'm really impressed about how mature he is in his off-the-ball work now. Getting much better at spotting opponent's intentions, at forcing them down blind alleys, at spotting opportunities to double up and cut off passing angles. The observation that Gerrard was better than him at constructing attacks is correct, but Henderson was much better than Gerrard at disrupting Palace's attacks.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.
« Reply #39 on: October 7, 2013, 11:19:33 am »
I think this thread should have started with a mention of Ian Holloway singing YNWA along with the crowd, I was touched.

Top post Yorky!

Anyone got this on a video link? Don't see anything on YouTube..
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