Topic: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC

[exiledinyorkshire]

Actually if at the point that Sahko goes everybody steps up then michu is moving towards his own goal as shelve starts his run.

any how its a good goal.

I hope for more aggressive centre back play like this from both CB. It completely changes the nature of our game for the better in my opinion. Agger often does it IIRC.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Too true mate. Remember the way that Rush used to defend from the front and would always hassle the man on the ball.
We made Shelvey look so good because we gave him so much time.
Nobody bothered to press him or press Britten and nobody went with Shelvey when he made his run and that is what cost us.

Did you see my post about the goal kicks mate? Not sure if it came across on the TV but in the stadium you could have thrown a blanket over all the outfield players and I felt Mignolet should have looked at trying to vary his kicks and maybe try and put Moses 1 on 1 with Rangel.

Just saw your post. I agree, I think we were very predictable without our goalkicks, and they were almost always to the right side for Henderson and Wisdom to battle for them. I don't know if this was Rodgers identifying that side as an aerial weakness for Swansea, or Mignolet not seeing the other side of the field. Either way, it was an opportunity wasted, because Moses was getting good space on his side, and clearly can use the ball to make something of it.

[GrkStav]

Just saw your post. I agree, I think we were very predictable without our goalkicks, and they were almost always to the right side for Henderson and Wisdom to battle for them. I don't know if this was Rodgers identifying that side as an aerial weakness for Swansea, or Mignolet not seeing the other side of the field. Either way, it was an opportunity wasted, because Moses was getting good space on his side, and clearly can use the ball to make something of it.

In the second half, and especially the last 20 minutes (including additional time), Mignolet aimed at least 3 of his goal kicks/etc to our left side, and Enrique (not Moses and later Sterling).

[Yorkykopite]

Some excellent posts in here. A special mention to John C's which had me nodding a lot.

I'm pleased with the point. This will be one of the hardest games of the season because Swansea, already a very decent side, have got better since last season. They were more fluent on the ball, and more penetrating too, than both Villa and Man Utd - and in Davies, Chico Flores and Michu they had three of the game's outstanding performers. Also, lest we forget, we entered the contest with our two best defenders injured. Johnson's a big miss for us, as he would be for any team in the league, and the loss of the sublime and cool-headed Agger is always a wound. So considering all these things the fact that Liverpool remain unbeaten should be a source of pleasure to us all.

I watched Sakho with special interest, as I always do with new centre backs. Someone could no doubt show video clips of the three times in the first half that he dived in and missed his man completely. If that's all you saw you'd be horrified of course. But without trying to excuse his rashness I think it would be a grossly unfair reflection of an encouraging debut. Those lunges were about underestimating the quality of attackers he was facing and they'll have to be eradicated, but the good thing was he kept his composure and he finished the game strongly - making (arguably) the game's defining tackle when he cleanly robbed Michu near the end after a typically inspired blind-side run by the Swansea forward.  He also passed well - ie quickly. What a difference it makes when a centre back doesn't need a second touch of the ball to find a midfielder. For one thing the receiver tends to have more time. Sakho hit first-time balls on several occasions on Monday night and I like that because it suggests that the player is very aware of what's happening in front of him. Oddly, some centre backs aren't (Ashley Williams is a mess isn't he?).

A couple of times too I just thought to myself, 'jeez this lad's good'. One was a first-half dribble out of a nest of legs into the wide-open field that had 'Made in Liverpool' stamped all over it.  The other was the audacious back heel that made Michu look (momentarily) like a pub player. It was funny that. Some might call it risky, but it really wasn't. Michu had no chance of intercepting the ball because - like everyone else in the stadium -  Sakho's trickery came as a complete and total surprise. In fact less than a minute later Skrtel did a far more orthodox thing by passing the ball back to Mignolet. That was risky because this time Michu - along everyone else - could see exactly what Skrtel was going to do. The ball was slightly underhit too and for a moment it looked like the second gift of the evening had been presented in the form of a poor back-pass to the goalie.  Which just goes to show - doing the obvious thing isn't always the same as doing the right thing.

I'll look forward to seeing more of Sakho. So should you.

Moses had a good match too. He repeatedly won balls that ought to have been beyond him, showing quick feet to go with the obvious strength. His goal came courtesy of Shelvey we were told by all the newspaper reports. Partly true. It was a wretched pass by the blind one. But Moses still had so much to do and his acceleration and balance were impressive. As was the hard shot.

After 55 minutes though he began to take up an ultra-defensive position - as did Henderson on the others side - and at that point things got hard for Liverpool and a lot easier for Swansea. I think Rodgers is making a mistake by doing this in the second half. Moses and Hendo were incredibly deep for most of this period and from that point on any Liverpool player who had the ball at his feet simply didn't have enough outlets. Stevie sent some exquisite passes forward of course but they always found Sturridge too isolated to be really effective. It reminded me of the last days of Torres when the nearest supporting artist seemed to be at the Academy awards.

Henderson was poor. He kept losing the bloody ball. Our right side was a bit of a joke going forward, even in the first half - with both Henderson and Wisdom lacking the ingenuity to do much that was damaging with the ball.  Brendan pulled them both to the touchline at one point in the first half, but there was no discernible improvement afterwards. I expect Hendo to be troubled by packed defences so there's nothing new there, but normally he's very good on the counter-attack when he's faced by the wide-open pitch. But, no, there was nothing in the second half. He defended instead, but was systematically beaten by both Davies and Routledge on the right. No surprise there - he's always too far away from the man receiving the ball to be able to box in an opponent. This has been a problem since ever since he arrived. But it's worrying  that the improvement in his tackling technique has been so minimal. As for his heading?.....honestly Jordan, the ball does not hurt the scalp. Trust me.

Finally, Mignolet. Great punching! Great shot-stopping. 

Do something about the kicking.

[PhaseOfPlay]

In the second half, and especially the last 20 minutes (including additional time), Mignolet aimed at least 3 of his goal kicks/etc to our left side, and Enrique (not Moses and later Sterling).

There was a definite bias towards the right, as we can see here:



But he did also play to the left. I think Jason42's point is maybe that he didn't do it early and often enough?

[GrkStav]

It's not about me being right, incidentally. I really appreciate and respect the points of view being raised by you and Dan A among others. But it's about getting away from the mentality that if a goal is conceded, we look at the defenders first, because most goals can be prevented further up; and the elephant in the room for me is that Gerrard was negligent in both goals, and it's a habit he had at the early part of last season too (think back to the goal Arsenal scored against us - the first one, I think). I think we can have a good debate on the merits of a centre-half pushing out aggressively, or sitting back passively, for sure. But it's a sidetrack to the main issue - Gerrard allowed Shelvey to play the ball into Bony, and failed to track his run as soon as he made it. I don't know, though, if that's an issue with Gerrard, or is that something Rodgers allows his midfielders to do. It's not something I would allow any of my central midfielders to do, that's for sure. But then again, as much as I like and support Rodgers, I'm more in line with how Rafa sees the game

Of course. Mind you, my immediate reaction upon my second viewing of the match was to point the finger at Gerrard. It was only after your and others' analysis that I started paying attention to the CBs and the FBs.

Overall, from my amateur but considered judgment viewpoint, when a new CB pairing is on the pitch, one of whom is more capable and/or eager to play an elastic high line whilst the other is more capable and/or eager to play a more 'safety-first' line, the instructions should be to err on the side of the latter. Furthermore, I do still insist that Sakho (understandably, perhaps) over-commits to Bony's check-run, in light of his ignorance of how Lucas plays and reacts.

What Sakho did was, by BR's own admission (although, I must admit I don't always trust BR's ex post facto explanations and analyses), not how BR wants it to happen.

If it's a choice between expecting 3 other players to accommodate the new lad, talented as he may be, and move in unison with him, vs the new lad accommodating the 'custom of the manor' at first, I will always go for the latter. As would, I think, Rafa.

[PhaseOfPlay]

It reminded me of the last days of Torres when the nearest supporting artist seemed to be at the Academy awards.

LOL.


One of the funniest things I've ever read on here. But there's truth in humour, and your point is an excellent one. If we're going to drop deep like that for the foreseeable future, I think we need to go with an honest 4-4-2, which we might do when Suarez returns.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Of course. Mind you, my immediate reaction upon my second viewing of the match was to point the finger at Gerrard. It was only after your and others' analysis that I started paying attention to the CBs and the FBs.

Overall, from my amateur but considered judgment viewpoint, when a new CB pairing is on the pitch, one of whom is more capable and/or eager to play an elastic high line whilst the other is more capable and/or eager to play a more 'safety-first' line, the instructions should be to err on the side of the latter.

I think this is sensible. It could have been Sakho trying to impress on his debut. Or not being sure of the structure so just went hell-for-leather. Or it could have been the Spirit of Traore

Furthermore, I do still insist that Sakho (understandably, perhaps) over-commits to Bony's check-run, in light of his ignorance of how Lucas plays and reacts.

Overcommits I can accept. I think Rodgers said the same thing. What I can't accept is the argument that he shouldn't have gone at all, which is a great argument in hindsight, but Sakho didn't have the benefit of hindsight, and had to make a decision in the flow of play, and the decision he made was an acceptable one.

What Sakho did was, by BR's own admission (although, I must admit I don't always trust BR's ex post facto explanations and analyses), not how BR wants it to happen.

I'm not sure that's what he said. He said Sakho went a "wee bit too far" - which to me indicates that he had no problem with the stepping up with Bony, but that, like you, he possibly overcommitted himself.

If it's a choice between expecting 3 other players to accommodate the new lad, talented as he may be, and move in unison with him, vs the new lad accommodating the 'custom of the manor' at first, I will always go for the latter. As would, I think, Rafa.

I can't disagree with that. As I said in my first post, it was four defenders playing four different systems. I think in the same situation, with maybe Toure or Agger or even Ilori beside him, that run would be supported by an offside trap, and if the Swansea move breaks down because Michu can't get to the ball as he's either offside or dropping with the line, then Sakho looks like a very clever defender. Like everything else, it's situational, and we can debate the merits of it after the fact. But my contention is that Sakho had to make a decision as soon as Bony checked to the ball, and the decision he made only looks bad because they scored - but the decision to go was not the cause of the goal, because it should have been stopped in several places before the ball even gets to Shelvey's header.

[GrkStav]

After 55 minutes though he began to take up an ultra-defensive position - as did Henderson on the others side - and at that point things got hard for Liverpool and a lot easier for Swansea. I think Rodgers is making a mistake by doing this in the second half. Moses and Hendo were incredibly deep for most of this period and from that point on any Liverpool player who had the ball at his feet simply didn't have enough outlets. Stevie sent some exquisite passes forward of course but they always found Sturridge too isolated to be really effective. It reminded me of the last days of Torres when the nearest supporting artist seemed to be at the Academy awards.

Henderson was poor. He kept losing the bloody ball. Our right side was a bit of a joke going forward, even in the first half - with both Henderson and Wisdom lacking the ingenuity to do much that was damaging with the ball.  Brendan pulled them both to the touchline at one point in the first half, but there was no discernible improvement afterwards. I expect Hendo to be troubled by packed defences so there's nothing new there, but normally he's very good on the counter-attack when he's faced by the wide-open pitch. But, no, there was nothing in the second half. He defended instead, but was systematically beaten by both Davies and Routledge on the right. No surprise there - he's always too far away from the man receiving the ball to be able to box in an opponent. This has been a problem since ever since he arrived. But it's worrying  that the improvement in his tackling technique has been so minimal. As for his heading?.....honestly Jordan, the ball does not hurt the scalp. Trust me.

Both Moses and Henderson did exactly what they were supposed to do when they did it in the 2nd half. Especially Henderson after Toure came in for Wisdom, and was promptly beaten for pace (and almost for fun) by Routledge. All in all, there was NO tactical choice made to 'defend' deeper that 'allowed' Swansea to attack more fluidly, etc. This is demonstrated by the fact that we 'hunted in packs' in the Swansea half of the field on numerous times in the second half, even deep into it.

I am sorry, but Henderson was not poor, at all. I agree with your assessment of his heading (which leaves a LOT to be desired). On the other hand, without him we'd have been in deep doodoo with Toure at RB. Going forward he was actually not in the least as you described him. The one thing he did do that was incorrect was, on at least one occasion, pass to Wisdom who was 'surrounded' and then did not move appropriately to offer a proper pass target for him.

[Lastrador]

Maybe all the disagreements are hinged around what people prefer to see? I prefer an aggressive elastic high line with proactive defenders. It seems others prefer the more conservative 3rd Defender approach with passive defending. It's interesting to see the difference of opinion, because Rodgers wants a high line, and how Sakho played there is consistent with how a high-line defender should play. As a few of us have mentioned, though, Sakho was playing one game, Skrtel was playing another, and Enrique and Wisdom were playing another game entirely. As soon as they are fit, Toure and Agger have to be reinstated, because they have a good understanding of when to step together, when to drop, and when to split.

Talking of high lines, can you see Rodgers trying a Sakho-Toure partnership while Agger is injured? It seems to me that those two have the most adequate attributes to play such high line, and while none of them have Agger composure on the ball (although they are not bad at all) they seemed way more mobile and aggressive.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Talking of high lines, can you see Rodgers trying a Sakho-Toure partnership while Agger is injured? It seems to me that those two have the most adequate attributes to play such high line, and while none of them have Agger composure on the ball (although they are not bad at all) they seemed way more mobile and aggressive.

I don't know if he'll drop Skrtel, but that would be the most logical non-Agger pairing if we are to start playing the game in the other team's half again. They are both fast, mobile on the turn, speak the same language, have no problems clearing a ball, and can play an aggressive defence. It would make sense, for sure. We'll have to see how it goes though.

[fowlermagic]

Top of the league ....might not be for long but right now enjoy it

We played well for 30 / 35 minutes where we looked good for a win although the game was going back n forth as both sides obviously love to pass/keep ball. Hats off to Sturridge for sniffing out his goal and every game he is showing he is the a tremendous buy. Lovely debut goal too for Moses and he showed enough potential to be a great addition to the squad.

Swansea probably gave us too much respect and once they went 2-1 down I think they came hard at us and from there on I bet they had 65% plus of the possession for nearly 55  minutes. When we got the ball we could not keep it for more than 3 passes its seems which is reflected in Swansea 21 interceptions versus our 3. We coughed up the ball way too easy and while some are pointing fingers at the defense esp Skrtel for playing a deep line how does anyone defend us losing possession so often...which obviously kept us on our back foot too much as we knew the ball was coming back.

Interesting stat to see considering we are two passing sides is Swansea had 628 passes versus our 432. Hats off to Swansea as when they are on form they can pass with the best and basically showed us up. Not too many sides will come away with a point after getting out gunned by nearly 200 passes so hats off to the lads for stealing that one I think.

Shelvey - what a game for the lad as you could see how it was going for him before the second half kicked off. He was distraught but fair deuce to him for setting up the leveller as its probably the least he deserved. If he can rid himself of those mistakes and considering how young he is I cant see why not then he has a big future maybe pushing the likes of Lampard eventually as his replacement for England.

Sorry to hear about Coutinho, hope he is back soon and again top of the league so enjoy it as who knows how long we will be there.

[Lastrador]

I don't know if he'll drop Skrtel, but that would be the most logical non-Agger pairing if we are to start playing the game in the other team's half again. They are both fast, mobile on the turn, speak the same language, have no problems clearing a ball, and can play an aggressive defence. It would make sense, for sure. We'll have to see how it goes though.

Yes, It would be a tad unfair on Skrtel recent performances, but it would be very interesting to see none the less. I don't know how it would work with the lack of cover the central midfield has been giving recently though.

[No Appreciation of Liverpool Opposition]

as always we need a new left back, its our weakest position.

[PhaseOfPlay]

as always we need a new left back, its our weakest position.

We have one, but he's injured. We'll see how different things are when he gets back.

[CHOPPER]

as always we need a new left back, its our weakest position.

And our most experienced defender on Monday night. Hmmmmmmmm, a defence crippled by injuries or a defence in a state of flux.

[John C]

Some excellent posts in here. A special mention to John C's which had me nodding a lot.

Thank you yorky, that means a lot coming from you mate.

[No666]

...

Well that was a bloody treat. Cracking summary.

[rickardinho1]

as always we need a new left back, its our weakest position.

LB really isn't that much of a concern. Sure, Enrique won't score or assist as many as other Fullbacks might (like Johnson for instance) but him and Cissokho are a safe pair there. So far this season Enrique has been very consistent, if quite anonymous at times (which isn't a bad thing considering that there haven't been many attacks coming through our left side, with van persies late chance the only one that stands out)

The RB position seems to be the biggest weakness in our back 4 now that Johnson is out, as the Swansea game showed. Wisdom was very insecure, and it was clear that Routledge, Davies, and Michu were closing him down far quicker than anyone else when he received it (to good effect too as he either ran back to mignolet or simply hit it out of play or a gung-ho 50/50 ball deep. I wasn't particularly impressed by Toure in the latter stages as Henderson repeatedly had to help cover and Routledge still managed to get 3 or 4 crosses in during the closing stages (compared to none from our left side), and our only other real option is Kelly who also looked short of 100% match fitness in the u21 game vs sunderland last night.

With Agger likely still injured this weekend I'd expect to see a back 4 of Wisdom, Toure, Sakho, Enrique; with Skrtel and Agger rested for the Man Utd trip who they performed great against (I hear van Persie is still trying to get out of skrtel's back pocket )

[jason42]

There was a definite bias towards the right, as we can see here:



But he did also play to the left. I think Jason42's point is maybe that he didn't do it early and often enough?

Being in the upper tier and behind the goals gave an excellent vantage point. Mignolet would always aim right towards the mass of congested players and when he did rarely kick left all of the players had gone left as well.
Enrique and Moses were against Dyer and Rangel yet Mignolet kicked to the right too often.
Lack of variation makes us predictable...

[rickardinho1]

As a goalkeeper with probably a similar attributes to Mignolet (decent shot blocking but terrible distribution with the feet at goalkicks, though nowhere near as good as his obviously!!) I'd like to point out that keepers often have a favourite side to kick to on goal kicks, and are usually taught from a young age never to kick across goal incase of miskicks. Being right footed I like to go wide right as a mis-kick will only result in a throw-in or atleast go to a less dangerous wide area in the event of a quick counter-attack from the other team. Aiming left means kicking across the body which isn't as comfortable to do, and a mis-kick could end up in the middle.

Although this is probably less of an issue at the professional level, habits like that can stick with you even as you improve your game, which may be why there seems to be a strong preference from Mignolet to go right.

I'd also like to point out that I'm very impressed by his ability to kick well with both feet, something not all keepers can do, and certainly not as effectively as him.
The time when he "Cruyff-turned" Welbeck comes to mind as well as a brilliant piece of skill, and he cleared that with his weaker left foot. That said, he could definitely improve the precision of his kicks, but he's still young and I'm sure working with BR and his possession philosophy will allow him to do just that.

[PhaseOfPlay]

As a goalkeeper with probably a similar attributes to Mignolet (decent shot blocking but terrible distribution with the feet at goalkicks, though nowhere near as good as his obviously!!) I'd like to point out that keepers often have a favourite side to kick to on goal kicks, and are usually taught from a young age never to kick across goal incase of miskicks. Being right footed I like to go wide right as a mis-kick will only result in a throw-in or atleast go to a less dangerous wide area in the event of a quick counter-attack from the other team. Aiming left means kicking across the body which isn't as comfortable to do, and a mis-kick could end up in the middle.

Not if you place the ball on the other side of the 6 yard

[RayPhilAlan]

A couple of times too I just thought to myself, 'jeez this lad's good'. One was a first-half dribble out of a nest of legs into the wide-open field that had 'Made in Liverpool' stamped all over it.  The other was the audacious back heel that made Michu look (momentarily) like a pub player. It was funny that. Some might call it risky, but it really wasn't. Michu had no chance of intercepting the ball because - like everyone else in the stadium -  Sakho's trickery came as a complete and total surprise. In fact less than a minute later Skrtel did a far more orthodox thing by passing the ball back to Mignolet. That was risky because this time Michu - along everyone else - could see exactly what Skrtel was going to do. The ball was slightly underhit too and for a moment it looked like the second gift of the evening had been presented in the form of a poor back-pass to the goalie.  Which just goes to show - doing the obvious thing isn't always the same as doing the right thing.

I'll look forward to seeing more of Sakho. So should you.

Yeah, I really enjoyed Sakho's performance too - he's certainly got skill.

One thing that I haven't seen anyone pick up on was a tactic of Swansea's that seemed to hurt us. We have Henderson playing in that 1.5 position - on attack he's normally out wide, but when we lose the ball he comes infield to cover Lucas and Gerrard and add energy to their attributes in that area. Time after time Swansea seemed to wait for Hendo to come infield, and then they pumped it out to his side, leaving him to scamper to make up ground and give Wisdom the help he now needed. Perhaps if Johnson had been there the tactic would have been less successful, and I can't remember it actually hurting us (unless Hendo started staying wider and Lucas & Gerrard were caught out as a result?) but this tactic may be better used against us by a superior team.

Did anyone else see it like that, or am I imagining it?

[RedHands]

I answered in the Sakho thread, but it would probably fit better in the round table thread. So heres to copy paste.

I always like your posts mate, but you are completely wrong here if you think thats how a centre half should play. You have to keep your shape as a defensive unit, thats just basic defending. Sakho should never follow Bony up the field and leave the space open behind him. Lucas had Bony, who received it with the back to the goal and wasnt in a dangerous position. The situation became dangerous because Sakho got dragged out. Gerrard should have followed his man, wisdom should have been more aware and Skrtel should have tugged ind, but Sakho made the major mistake in making it all happen. One of the most difficult thing to defend as a defender is when opponents makes run behind your back, because you will always react slower than them. Its much easier when you have the opponents in front of you.

This. And Wisdom should have been goal tide to Michu.

I thought our major problem during the game was that we stopped working for each other. We won very few second balls and when we did, no one was working to give the player on the ball an easy option so we ended up giving it away.

[ser_renely]

Some good analysis posted.

To be honest I really don't know what I thought of Sakho.  It was such an odd game, a lot of changes for the back line.  I don't think he did poor, nor do I think he was great.  I felt he was a guy who was slightly out of match finesses and definitely lacked match sharpness. Other than the chase out for Bony, which may have started the whole defensive collapse, it was one of the only questionable decisions in hindsight.  The rest of our back like seemed to not want to fill the space, which would have probably resulted in an easy pass out wide for a cross or a more direct attack. I did think he would be better on offensive corners.  We had a lot.

I really like Wisdom but I just don't see it in him anymore.  I am sure it will come and go.  Growing pains.

My main concern is how slow Gerrard and Lucas are.  I think this is part of the reason why we get into such trouble sometimes.  I just think our midfiled will really struggle until we have a player that adds pace in the center.  I think that is why Henderson has been doing so well with Lucas and Gerrard, as he fills the athletic midfielder(although he looked absolutely exhausted towards the end of the game).  We really need another player to use when needed when teams are zipping and passing by us.

[slimbo]

It's harder to focus on doing that when you've got a spitting, snarling, biting, nipping probably Chinese burn inducing Uruguayan keeping you occupied.

One of the best descriptions of Luis I've ever heard.

Last season we lose that game. Whenever the expectation kicked in, we'd suffer an embarrassing reverse. Now we'll have a frustrating draw. One point difference, but much easier on the soul.

Agree with this. I think this statement could be valid for all of our games so far this season but for whatever reason we've come away with a result.

Maybe things are starting to turn in our favour.

Must also say I was impressed with Swansea's combination play in our final third. They found their mark effortlessly at times and will give plenty of teams trouble this season.

[Timbo's Goals]

Top of the league ....might not be for long but right now enjoy it

We played well for 30 / 35 minutes where we looked good for a win although the game was going back n forth as both sides obviously love to pass/keep ball. Hats off to Sturridge for sniffing out his goal and every game he is showing he is the a tremendous buy. Lovely debut goal too for Moses and he showed enough potential to be a great addition to the squad.

Swansea probably gave us too much respect and once they went 2-1 down I think they came hard at us and from there on I bet they had 65% plus of the possession for nearly 55  minutes. When we got the ball we could not keep it for more than 3 passes its seems which is reflected in Swansea 21 interceptions versus our 3. We coughed up the ball way too easy and while some are pointing fingers at the defense esp Skrtel for playing a deep line how does anyone defend us losing possession so often...which obviously kept us on our back foot too much as we knew the ball was coming back.

Interesting stat to see considering we are two passing sides is Swansea had 628 passes versus our 432. Hats off to Swansea as when they are on form they can pass with the best and basically showed us up. Not too many sides will come away with a point after getting out gunned by nearly 200 passes so hats off to the lads for stealing that one I think.

Shelvey - what a game for the lad as you could see how it was going for him before the second half kicked off. He was distraught but fair deuce to him for setting up the leveller as its probably the least he deserved. If he can rid himself of those mistakes and considering how young he is I cant see why not then he has a big future maybe pushing the likes of Lampard eventually as his replacement for England.

Sorry to hear about Coutinho, hope he is back soon and again top of the league so enjoy it as who knows how long we will be there.

Good post mate. Exactly how I saw it. Brendan citing Coutinho going off as the turning point was either disingenuous of him or else he was watching a different game. 

There seems to have been a lot posted here about a poor performance by our defence. Whilst it could be argued that some criticism may have been merited during what was a pretty even first half when lapses and first match nerves did figure, the fact is that during what turned into a torturous second half, the defence - particularly the central duo and goalie - actually performed quite heroically. And the mythological  ‘too deep’ defensive line – has there by the way ever been a footballing term so voraciously adopted by fans – was certainly no matter of choice, rather necessity against an onslaught precipitated higher up the pitch. 

I think what we saw on Monday night as the game wore on was a culmination of factors, most prominently -

a] the absence of what were effectively three back four regulars in Agger, Johnson and Toure and maybe even in time a fourth in Cissokho;

b] the fact that of the replacements for those three, one has not been playing for his previous team and has only just arrived here, one has been relegated to reserve with us for the best part of a season and one is still very much a novice going through a severe learning process. Also, the class of the three missing lads doesn’t grow on trees. It’s sorely missed when it’s not there.

c] the virtual absence during the second half of a midfield shield in front of the three defence replacements. And also front players who had either never heard of the Ian Rush method of ‘really’ defending up the field not simply going through the motions of doing so or were too unfit to begin to put it into practice or simply couldn't be arsed to do so.

And d] a Swansea side which during that second half most certainly had the bit between their collective teeth and gave a very impressive Barca type exhibition in the art of retaining possession and winning it back, without thankfully possessing quite the wherewithal and determination to translate that possession into the real object of the exercise namely filling the onion bag.

Even so, without the back four heroics and had Swansea been able to supplement their overwhelming superiority with some more of the nous that produced their equaliser we could have been trounced a bit like we were down at Southampton away last season.

So, all in all and even allowing for the absentees, that second half display was pretty damned disgraceful but the fight, vigour and determination displayed by the centre of our defence and goalie makes them entirely exempt from any such slating. Had other departments of the team shown a similar attitude and approach the second half would certainly not have degenerated into the fuckin one way farce it became.

[freddwarf]

How did the defence look?

Lacked leadership in the last 20 minutes or so.This is where Carra often kept the defence on their toes,nobody dared slack as Carra would turn on them.And he wasn't bluffing.

Why did Routledge get the better of us down the left?

Wisdom should not have been subed, he wasn't doing that badly.Yes he needs to get his head right and time his tackles better but taking him off meant bringing on Toure,who was off the pace. Hendo dropped deep to help out but looked knackered and flapped about and was skinned two or three times in the last 15 minutes or so.

Yes Wisdom was on a yellow but so were a few others. Hendo for me was the culprit in that last 25/20 minutes. Had the break,should have been a lot sharper. Waved his arms about and looked out of his depth and as I say was skinned a good few times. Obviously posters back Hendo quite a bit, claiming all kinds of stuff about his play, if they looked harder they would see clearly that he is a mid table player, and that's his level.

Others on the night were off due to fatigue and lack of form. New players take time to gel etc.

On the night we did not have enough quality and did not make up for it with effort.

[Timbo's Goals]

How did the defence look?

Lacked leadership in the last 20 minutes or so.

I just cannot level that criticism to them. For the latter stages of the first half and the entire second half the team as an entity certainly lacked leadership - vocally, spiritually and by example. But the central defenders and goalie were too busy doing the work  for the rest of the team of securing the draw to even remotely think of being leaders - other than by example.

[wah00ey]

Once Countinho had been removed from the equation we seemed entirely incapable of holding on to possession.  All of a sudden, Swansea had less to worry about defensively and were able to push up against us.  Did Aspas play too deep when he came on or was it simply that he couldn't retain possession or make a clean pass?  Gerrard and Lucas both dropped deeper as well, I can understand this of Lucas but Gerrard needed to be stepping up and attempting to gain some sort of control in the midfield.  This didn't happen and we simply invited them on to us.  It was like watching my son's U15 team last weekend where, albeit for a different reason, they simply couldn't get the ball out of their own half and retain any possession in their opponents half.  As a result, wave after wave of attacks came at them.

When a team builds up momentum, like Swansea did (were allowed) it's very difficult to stem the tide.  I'm not sure Rodgers had a plan to do this, or perhaps it's as simple as he doesn't feel he has the required personnel to do so - even after the summer we've had in the transfer market.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Once Countinho had been removed from the equation we seemed entirely incapable of holding on to possession.  All of a sudden, Southampton had less to worry about defensively and were able to push up against us.  Did Aspas play too deep when he came on or was it simply that he couldn't retain possession or make a clean pass?  Gerrard and Lucas both dropped deeper as well, I can understand this of Lucas but Gerrard needed to be stepping up and attempting to gain some sort of control in the midfield.  This didn't happen and we simply invited them on to us.  It was like watching my son's U15 team last weekend where, albeit for a different reason, they simply couldn't get the ball out of their own half and retain any possession in their opponents half.  As a result, wave after wave of attacks came at them.

When a team builds up momentum, like Soton did (were allowed) it's very difficult to stem the tide.  I'm not sure Rodgers had a plan to do this, or perhaps it's as simple as he doesn't feel he has the required personnel to do so - even after the summer we've had in the transfer market.

I do hope this post didn't come from the future

[wah00ey]

I do hope this post didn't come from the future

Ah, begins with "S" don't it :-).

Changed.  Got Saturday's game on the brain!

[GregCharrua]

Some saying it was ingenious for Rodgers to say Coutinho's going off changed the game, but didn't it?

I wonder why? Is it coutinho put himself into positions to receive the ball, and his skill allowed him to receive it and move us upward under the higher second half pressure? I think he was a crucial link to transition from the the back four or lucas/gerrard into the middle of the pitch, and when he was assaulted by Williams, we brought in Aspas who doesn't have that in his game (at least that I've seen so far). Perhaps Rodgers idea was to go over the pressure with longer passes and that's why we saw the constant misplaced passes and poor possession afterwards, with Mignolet's distribution not cutting it standing out most but other balls being misplaced or just suffocated before they are passed along by a Swansea who seemed to have something to prove to their fans.

So for me that's where the momentum and two points were lost when Coutinho went off. Luis Alberto would have been the ideal sub to retain possession and carry out those duties Coutinho was doing so well. But I think maybe Rodgers saw Swansea start to pour forward and wanted to go over their pressure.

Probably I'm wrong though.

Yay for the point 

[robertobaggio37]

I just cannot level that criticism to them. For the latter stages of the first half and the entire second half the team as an entity certainly lacked leadership - vocally, spiritually and by example. But the central defenders and goalie were too busy doing the work  for the rest of the team of securing the draw to even remotely think of being leaders - other than by example.

Spot on.

[freddwarf]

I just cannot level that criticism to them. For the latter stages of the first half and the entire second half the team as an entity certainly lacked leadership - vocally, spiritually and by example. But the central defenders and goalie were too busy doing the work  for the rest of the team of securing the draw to even remotely think of being leaders - other than by example.

I agree to an extent, but you need someone with experience, who can see the bigger picture, other than their own game and marshall the defence . Carra was great at that and you could often hear him screaming out instructions. Any team would miss that expreience.

Toure can do that but he's knocking on a bit and has only been here 5 minutes and hasn't built up the respect. But when we are coenered we will have to be quicker, on our toes even more, not get caught flat footed, as did Celtic at the death last night. Carra prevented all that. The 2005 C/L win would not have happened if Carra had gone off injured or with cramp.

We need someone to take on that role.

[GrkStav]

Why did Routledge get the better of us down the left?

Wisdom should not have been subed, he wasn't doing that badly.Yes he needs to get his head right and time his tackles better but taking him off meant bringing on Toure,who was off the pace. Hendo dropped deep to help out but looked knackered and flapped about and was skinned two or three times in the last 15 minutes or so.

Yes Wisdom was on a yellow but so were a few others. Hendo for me was the culprit in that last 25/20 minutes. Had the break,should have been a lot sharper. Waved his arms about and looked out of his depth and as I say was skinned a good few times. Obviously posters back Hendo quite a bit, claiming all kinds of stuff about his play, if they looked harder they would see clearly that he is a mid table player, and that's his level.

I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of being a Henderson 'fan-boy'. And yet, on the basis of repeated viewings of the match, especially the second half, I can categorically say that your description and characterization of Henderson's performance and its impact on our attack and defense is nothing short of fictional and patently unfair and over-critical.

We'd have been in deep malodorous shite had Henderson not been on the right doing yeoman's work helping out Toure after Wisdom was subbed off. And, not only did Henderson not demonstrate any of his previous 'mid-table player' attributes, he actually demonstrated, going forward quite a few signs that he's slowly but surely 'getting it' and improving his overall game to match the style of football that BR wants from his players.

[BabuYagu]

I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of being a Henderson 'fan-boy'. And yet, on the basis of repeated viewings of the match, especially the second half, I can categorically say that your description and characterization of Henderson's performance and its impact on our attack and defense is nothing short of fictional and patently unfair and over-critical.

We'd have been in deep malodorous shite had Henderson not been on the right doing yeoman's work helping out Toure after Wisdom was subbed off. And, not only did Henderson not demonstrate any of his previous 'mid-table player' attributes, he actually demonstrated, going forward quite a few signs that he's slowly but surely 'getting it' and improving his overall game to match the style of football that BR wants from his players.

Freddwarf isn't at all a fan of Henderson from memory. Shame as I think sometimes he makes interesting counter arguments to things I believe\think I saw but on that one topic I pretty much ignore him now as balance and credit where it is due never seem happen.

It is unfair to pick favourites and to see him continually mention Hendersons failures in that game yet not give the same time to Gerrards failures says a lot. It was pretty clear Gerrard looked physically and mentally tired out there and regularly failed to pick up runners from midfield. At times he looked like he was still playing Hodgson's instructions of maintaining shape at all costs.

The entire midfield had a bad game really. Moses faded dramatically in the second half after a stunning first 45. Coutinho never really got at Swansea and hurt them but still did his job tactically in linking midfield and attack. We lost that when he went off and we were far more direct after that. Lucas seemed to have too much to deal with and was caught a few times as a result. So while Henderson didnt have a great outing you also have to look at the fact he had Gerrard to his left who needed help defensively and Wisdom behind him needing help also. Seemed to spend all night caught between a rock and a hard place.

A quick look at the opta stats for the game tells you Gerrard made 1 tackle all game, which he lost. ONE. In the centre of a midfield being completely overrun.

[-Daws-]

Bit late on the scene here, but my take...


A story of two halves without a doubt. From a tactical point of view anyway, the game we played in the opening 45 minutes was in stark contrast to how the second unfolded. It has been a trait in recent weeks for the side to drop off and absorb pressure deep in our own half during the second period, whilst conversely playing a high line in the first. It was evident at the beginning of the game that the shape when we lost possession was more or less a 4-2-4. Sturridge was obviously having an issue moving and both his pace and stamina were clearly looking worse for wear as he rested out of possession, and couldn’t seem to break into top gear in it. We catered for this by pushing the wide player’s level with him and having Coutinho buzzing around the forward doing most of the pressure work through the middle.

Somewhat fortunately, despite the early goal, and probably due to the manner in which they instantaneously  conceded, Swansea found it difficult to find their passing game through midfield and at the back with the pressure applied by three of our four forward line. Williams and Shelvey predominantly seemed uncomfortable when players swarmed them and Lucas in particular through the midfield had a somewhat ‘easy ride’ picking up stray balls and dispossessing on heavy touches. Gerrard was maybe too ambitious at times with his passing range and Sakho was overly aggressive. Both were at fault for the opening goal with the skipper turning his back on the mishit shot and Sakho stepping out from the back line and approaching Shelvey very square on, which made it easy for the youngster to step past him and shoot.

Other than that instance, Liverpool were fairly dominant in the first half and Sturridge showed superb awareness in cutting off the angle back to the goalkeeper and latching onto Jonjos feeble back-pass.  After we bought it level, we appeared quite comfortable in possession and moved the ball around with composure as Swansea sat off and only pressed in their own half. As in the past however, we failed to create too many clear cut opportunities until Moses picked up Shelveys miss hit ball, accelerated into the space ahead of him and got the ball onto his right foot thanks to Sturridges run opening up the space on the inside. The finish was as emphatic as it was timely, and a great way for Victor Moses to mark his Liverpool debut giving us the lead on the approach to half time.

Despite the promise of the first period, the second fell flat on its face as the backline sat ridiculously deep and with it sucked the midfield and the forwards with them. Suddenly we barely started pressing until Swansea were 10/15 yards into our half. Why? I can’t tell you. Brendan made noises post match about it being a plan, but I’m not sure why. Yes it may have served us well had the game remained 2-1 given how it functioned  in previous occasions with a slender lead, but at 2-2, against a side not renowned for counter attacking who are more prominent with extended spells of possession? Hmm, not sure about that, it practically played into their hands. It could be justified in some previous matches as we looked to hold a lead, but even after Swansea had equalised we looked incapable of simply pushing out with the ball as we cleared it. Space, time, and where you allow your opposition to enjoy it are part of the foundations on which systems are engineered and game plans calculated. We allowed them an abundance of space ahead of us and let them play deep into our own half before challenging the ball. I could visibly see players backing away from the man with the ball traveling towards them for yard after yard. Without Agger or Toure in the backline, there seemed to be nobody forcing the team out from the back. It’s the defenders that define more than anybody else how high or deep we play as when the push on behind the midfielders they then are forced higher towards the forwards like a domino effect. The most important thing when defending is shortening the gaps between the lines and because the back four failed to push on as we cleared the ball the midfield and forwards could then not go and press high up the pitch for fear of leaving a hole between themselves and the defence which the likes of Dyer, Michu and Routledge would love to exploit. It must be said Routledge was excellent and caused many problems cutting in from the left and isolating Wisdom.

It may have been a tactical decision by Rodgers, but I can’t see his reasoning behind it. Maybe it has something to do with how Coutinho and Sturridge tire towards the end of matches and we wanted to play on the counter attack, but I’m not sure that is an admissible reason. Maybe because Moses added a more natural counter attacking option to the side gave him two reasons, but it’s not for me – not at 2-2 in Swansea anyway. I’m very disappointed at our ‘response’ upon losing the lead, as it seems we lost initiative as well.

It must be recognised however, that Swansea did a great job in the second half with intense pressure, movement, and tenacity as they took advantage of our somewhat lacklustre failings. Only one side ever really looked like scoring for that whole half and that was the Swans, and although I accept the result because we have done incredibly well so far, we should really have done more to try and win it. Maybe we just wanted to return to the top of the league and we felt the way to ensure that was to sit on a point and hope we might catch a break, but I find that a little disengaging as a supporter of a club famous for winning. One thing I will say is we don’t look massively fit right now. Gerrard was leggy, Lucas was overrun, Sturridge is clearly nowhere near match fit and Coutinho is still adapting to the pace, or the persistence of that pace, in the Premiership.

We did miss the little guy after a very send offable offence from their skipper. It was a nasty challenge; premeditated, high and with intent and as a result Coutinho is out for around six weeks. Aspas was chosen to replace Phillippe which could be regarded as ambitious to throw on another forward, and I think the intense press may have been on Rodgers mind with Aspas providing energy to hassle their back line in spades. It did somewhat backfire however, and contributed to us being unable to find a link between a deep midfield and Sturridge/Moses. Maybe Alberto would have been helpful in this sense and helped us retain possession better, but there are no guarantees in football, particularly hypotheticals. When it comes to Brendan’s performance, I can’t really fault the team selected because injuries dictated a fairly drastic overhaul to the first eleven, massively bigger than it would have been had Johnson, Agger, and Toure all been fit and had Suarez, Allen, and Cissokho been available they all could have helped deal with the threat Swansea possessed or swung the direction the match had taken. It’s all ifs and buts, and Rodgers picked the same side most would, given the circumstances.


When it comes to individuals on the pitch, I think Mignolet was very good. One slightly scary moment with Skrtel bailing him out, and I still feel uneasy when the ball comes back to his feet (although we have been spoilt in that department by Pepe) but overall he made some excellent saves and was very strong and aggressive coming off his line in the air; some excellent punches and a couple of top class athletic saves.

Wisdom is surely a centre half. A good ball playing centre half, but Glen Johnson he isn’t and you can sense nervousness when he’s got the ball at his feet with a few sloppy passes and touches. I like the lad a lot, but I still think a more naturally attacking right back would serve us better in Glens absence.

Skrtel was excellent. I’ve been critical of his ability to play in a high line, and that still stands, but in a game like yesterday when we are so deep he is a proper good defender. It could be argued however, that he was a reason we sat so deep and with Sakho being new to the team and league, should have taken responsibility to push out the backline but didn’t which unfortunately counts against him somewhat as despite the brilliance of the performance he partly held the team back.

Sakho is indeed a beast, and it’s only his first appearance so we must accommodate for nerves and a lack of playing time as well, but he needs to be a little less rash when trying to step in front his man. Good ability on the ball (bar a slip in the second) and strong as an ox, I’m sure he is gonna’ be a top, top player here.

Mentions to Enrique, Lucas, and Henderson who showed the same qualities and deficiencies as you’d expect from them but overall played quite well and applied themselves throughout the game; Gerrard too, although he looked tired and sometimes tried to force the play a bit too much with over ambitious balls over the top which often didn’t actually make it, maybe not hitting the ball as hard as he expects given his midweek exploits.

Coutinho was better than previous until Williams kicked him out the game; dropping into space, turning with elegance and confidence to knit everything together. I cannot stress enough what the arrival of Suarez will do for our little Brazilian by creating lavish more space for him. He is clearly being targeted and although the involvement of Moses helped a bit in creating room for him through the middle, a player that requires Suarez’ level of attention could double that space and Coutinhos productivity. Some lovely interchanges in passing between him and Lucas in the first half.

Moses was direct, powerful, and devilishly quick. He’s a real addition and will produce the goods regularly given time if you ask me. Stunning goal to boot.

Overall, a little bit of a disappointment. Not so much as the result, but the second half performance was not what I’d have expected after we conceded the equaliser and we clearly lacked a good reference point as we gave the ball away often within 3 passes of winning it and got pinned in our own box as if we were playing Barcelona rather than Swansea. Fair play to them for an excellent spectacle, and fair play to us for avoiding defeat and reigning top of the league once again, but it still somehow feels like 2 points lost than a point gained, and in divergence to the usual story from last season, it was down to a poor performance and good luck rather than vice versa.

Four games played, top by a point, I’d have Suarezed ya’ hand off if you’d offered me that 8 weeks ago. Onwards.

[rickardinho1]

After Swansea's 3-0 romp away at Valencia while fielding a weakened side (5 changes from our game) a point away suddenly doesn't seem all that bad! 

[Redshadow]

Leaking two goals is not really what I'd like to see, but then again, this thing happens when you have a 'make-shift' backline. And Swansea is not such a bad team, aren't they?