Author Topic: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool  (Read 12653 times)

royhendo

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Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« on: May 13, 2013, 06:41:02 am »
Gotta love the aways at Craven Cottage eh? Anyway, this was nice from Woof.

Here we are on high value entertainment again as we pulverised a team which have lost in 4 previous home games and managed to garner only 1 point in 7. It's not belittling our efforts or the opponent's apparent weakness or state of mind but it's the story of this season. We crush the minnows but struggle against top sides. Should this be a concern? Not really. I'd rather we learned to create and score goals first and then work on the defensive frailties. It seems the right thing to do after a 'disastrous' last season where we defended well but couldn't score to win games we should have won. Had BR done the same thing as Rafa when he took over the reigns i.e., build from the back, he wouldn't be as popular as he is now but that's not to say he's been accepted unanimously by the Liverpool supporters.

In terms of entertainment value, this was mostly all eye candy. I thought before Fulham scored, we actually played well - tight in midfield and defence and we passed crisply. When the sucker punch came (I felt sorry for Wisdom - he looked very nervous and played like a schoolboy but that's understandable), we deserted our passing game. Fortuitously, Wisdom's long punt found Sturridge and boy, he was just in the mood on the day. He could have easily scored a double hattrick with one or two assists. He didn't tuck away the easy ones but his finishing for the second and third goals was class. His control for a striker is excellent.

I thought our midfield did well without Gerrard. Shelvey is a long way off from being Gerrard's replacement but he showed some promise. He tends to dwell a couple of seconds too long when in a position to score. It was brave for BR to leave Enrique on the bench and he's equally brave and prudent to bring him on in the second half. When he came on, he was like a rock. The finest left back we have of recent memory. Lucas did a solid job as did Hendo. Carra was solid again. Coates was lucky to remain in the match. He still has much to learn and I hope he will 'get there'. Pepe pulled off another world class save to deny Fulham the equaliser at 2-1. I hope he stays. Downing put in a solid performance again. Nothing spectacular but just very solid. He put in a few very good crosses and could have scored one himself. Borini was unlucky not to score. Hope he can remain injury free.

The last praise goes to, IMO, joint MOTM, Coutinho. Give him space and he'll create something. He may not have Suarez's bag of tricks but his vision and quick thinking is second to none in the team. We will have a bright future if we can find someone to replace Gerrard and have Coutinho play between the new Gerrard and our frontline. 2 assists and he almost scored one.


So, that hints at our questions I think.

1. We are high on entertainment value, aren't we? Are we in danger of being fun to support next season?

2. How did we manage the midfield and defence while starting with the 3 at the back? Did you pine for Gerrard? Did you like the system?

3. How did the fringe players do in staking their claims?

4. Sturridge and last but not least, Coutinho. I suppose that needs a question mark, so here's one?

Over to you guys.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2013, 10:42:02 am »
The January window is a bad time to acquire new players. It's well known that only the rejects are available. They're unfit rejects too since they haven't got into the habit of playing consecutive 90 minutes. Nor, by definition, can a January purchase have the benefit of a pre-season when ideas and strategies are first talked about and laid down. That's why it's madness - or desperation - to empty the pockets and buy big in January. 

Coutinho and Sturridge. Ha ha ha.

These two January buys have been amazing for Liverpool. Sturridge already looks like the best English forward there is. Coutinho looks like the kind of player who could become a Brazilian poster-boy for their World Cup. And we have them both.

It's hard not to get a bit carried away of course. It's early days, opposing teams will become more familiar with them, and we don't know how either will react to a loss of form. But at the moment they look too hot for most teams to handle.

They're different players but they share one devastating characteristic and that's their ability to twist and turn their markers. Sturridge's first goal yesterday was the perfect illustration of a player thinking ahead and deciding he was going to discombobulate his marker by turning him twice. The key touch was the first one, which instantly brought the ball over his shoulder and inside his man. Sturridge of course knew his second touch would take the ball right back the other way. A top-class defender might have survived the first conceit, but very few would have coped with the first and the second. Two punches out of nowhere. And the Fulham lad reacted like any boxer would who'd lowered his guard just before a combination. Daniel's right foot finish was thunderous, but the real skill was that he'd already imagined what was going to happen as he was chasing Wisdom's long ball.

Chelsea are crazy for letting him go.

Coutinho is, if anything, even more adept at thinking ahead and forcing his opponent to react to a first turn just at the point where a second one is thrown in. Check his second-half assist at St James's where he dinked the ball through for Sturridge to smash in. The dink was lovely but the run that preceded it was even better. Coutinho was constantly changing the angle of the ball every time he touched it, forcing the retreating defender to look first over his left shoulder, and then his right. You can't do that, as a defender, without taking your eyes off the ball even if it's just for a nano-second. But every time the poor lad did that Coutinho exploited his blind spot to change the ball's trajectory again. The same thing happened for his assist yesterday. First to the right and then to the left - both changes of direction looking like superfluous flourishes but in actuality destroying a marker who was still trying to assimilate the first turn just as the second was executed.  It's brilliant stuff from Coutinho because it's all about buying space for the killer pass that follows.

There was a palpable sense of panic in the Fulham ranks every time he got the ball yesterday - especially in the second half. And that's partly because his shooting is as effective as his passing and dribbling.

Inter Milan are crazy for letting him go.

We have the basis for a leap forward next season. Personally I'm not convinced that either Henderson or Shelvey are good enough (yet). And nor, for all his improvement, is Downing. That however shows the scope for the team's improvement. If we can prosper with these two players dragging us back, what might we do with - say - a fit Ben Arfa in the side?

Henderson's willing but so slow when he has the ball and he's still often clueless about what's happening over his shoulder. His astonishing pass back to Berbatov was produced by panic I imagine. A fear of the unknown. He thought he was going to be hit from behind and dispossessed. But in reality there was no one coming. It was a bit typical that Henderson didn't know that.

Shelvey has more technique but did he produce a single first-time pass all afternoon? I don't remember one. He wants to deliver the glory ball to the wings all the time, which means he traps the ball, looks up, and.....already it's too late. The first-time pass to Coutinho in space has gone. Plus the lad added to the most hilarious collection of wasted chances I've ever seen from a single player over the course of a season. It's like he's taken a bet that he'll only score once and is determined to collect. A couple of years ago he came to Craven Cottage and put in a great performance. Can anyone say he's got better since then? I doubt it. Having said all that I'd keep him for another season. He's so comfortable on the ball and young enough still to learn from others. I wish the club would give him an eye test though. 

Oh, a final word for Lucas. Boss. (Again).

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Offline ashleyrose-66

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2013, 12:09:33 pm »
I think it was obvious from the first half showing that a 3-man defence wasn't working.

We weren't really benefitting from the extra man in the middle and the Fulham goal came from an over-lap down our left hand side.
Downing had been warned shortly before the goal by the referee for bringing Duff down, and Duff and Riether doubled up on him and got the ball in for Berbatov to score.

Rodgers saw it, and to his credit he made the change at half-time and it changed the game in our favour.
We looked a lot more comfortable with 4 at the back.

It was a good, but not spectacular performance against a side who have packed up for the season and are already mentally on their holidays. 
In the final 25 minutes of the game, we could have notched a few more goals and made it look more comfortable than the scoreline probably suggests. 
Sturridge had 2 good chances to get his hat-trick before he finally did, and Borini hit the post, but Fulham had chances at 2-1 to level the score, with Reina making 3 very good saves.  One from Berbatov following Henderson's poor pass, one from Aaron Hughes' header and a Riise free-kick which he did well to hold on to!

Coates looked assured, though Berbatov, playing as a lone striker wouldn't have troubled him with blistering pace.  It must be difficult coming in after several months sat in the stands.

Wisdom didn't look hugely composed playing on the right of a 3 man defence and rushed a few clearances in to the stands.  He did get an assist for Sturridge's first goal though.  He's a young lad in his breakthrough season and I think he'll get better.

Coutinho is a little magician.  He wreaks havoc when he gets the ball as you can see the opposition players know he is capable to producing the sort of ball he did for the 3rd goal.  What has also impressed me is his strength. 
He will go shoulder to shoulder with a man and comes out with the ball.  He is a tough little bugger and for someone so slight and skillful, has a lot more physical strength than I originally thought.  It was also evident against Newcastle a fortnight ago.
He has the ability to become an absolute hero to Liverpool fans.

Sturridge will rightly get the plaudits for his hat-trick, but he also played 2 superb flicks to set attacks up and his hold-up play was also top notch yesterday.  He is absolutely loving playing in a central role, and it will give Rodgers a welcome headache when Suarez returns next season.

I would have liked to see Shelvey make a real impression yesterday, but sadly, he didn't in my eyes.  I do think there is a talented player there, but we have yet to see it in a Liverpool shirt.  A proper loan - A full season, not just a few months - to a decent Championship club next season might do him the power of good. 

The players seemed to enjoy it as much as we did in the Putney end, but let's not get carried away by a good result coupled by a good atmosphere against a Fulham side that would probably go down if the season were 39 games not 38.

We need to ensure that we finish the season on a high against QPR and that we give Jamie Carragher the send-off he richly deserves.

This summer is possibly one of the biggest we have had in years.  I know we say that almost every year, but this one is huge.  In Coutinho and Sturridge, we have recently added 2 players that will make a big difference to the squad.  We need to add another 2-3 players that will also improve the squad, and hopefully see Allen and Borini have injury-free seasons and show us their quality.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2013, 03:28:24 pm »
It’s been difficult to make sense of this Liverpool team at times this season, hasn’t it? What it is, where it’s going, how it’s going to get there…threads have swelled to epic proportions on here trying to create some clarity on these very issues. And in the absence of any real comprehension, the unmistakeable stench of frustration has been a virtual constant since a reasonably decent first 40 minutes against West Brom at the Hawthorns back in August quickly turned into a nightmare of penalties and cards. These frustrations are understandable, I’ve felt them myself. Nobody wants to be 7th and outside of the top-4 for a fourth successive season. Nobody wants to see bad results follow good as sure as night follows day. Nobody wants to see free headers given away at corners and free-kicks. Nobody wants to lose to Oldham. Nobody wants to see yet another trophyless season, the sixth now out of seven (excluding the Community Shield in 2006/07). Nobody. And in some ways, it’s been one of Liverpool’s least memorable seasons in a long, long time. No glorious cup runs, no stab at the title, no battle for the top-4, barely even able to muster any real sense of alarm at finishing below Everton because, for the time being at least, the ‘finish above Everton trophy’ has yet to be invented and the disappointments of failing to achieve our goals for the season would not have been soothed one iota by finishing 6th.

And yet…

Maybe it’s just me, but there remains this kind of hushed excitement that we dare not even speak of, muted as it is by the reality that Brendan Rodgers’ team hasn’t come close to achieving anything tangible yet, even in comparison to his predecessor who reached two cup finals last season, and given stark context by a week where the retirement of another manager has seen it drummed into us over and over again what real success is, the kind of success that we all crave, the kind defined by silverware. The kind of success this club used to take as a given. In a season that’s been less about winning things than it has been about hopefully laying down foundations for that kind of success in the future, the excitement is in the flashes of potential we’ve seen and saw again yesterday with every Coutinho dribble and pass, not least the sumptuous through-ball for Sturridge to complete his hat-trick, with every combination between the two, with every powerful run or lay-off by Sturridge, with the adventure of Johnson and Enrique, the gradual return to form of Lucas (after two very serious injuries in a year) and Reina, the effectiveness of Borini coming off the bench (I really do believe in this lad) and the fact that Downing, Enrique and Henderson, three players who looked to be heading out the door at various times this season, have now made their respective replacements in the team no longer a priority for a club that can only afford to fill so many needs at a time. That’s before we talk about putting Fulham, admittedly a poor side, to the sword without Suárez, Gerrard and Agger. And who knows, if something special could be built on those foundations, then we might revisit this season again years from now with a renewed sense of appreciation.

That sense of appreciation is likely to start with the twin arrivals of Sturridge and Coutinho in January. It’s easy to forget now the debacle which took place in the closing hours of the summer transfer window, with the manager professing that Andy Carroll had been allowed to leave on loan because he had been given assurances that reinforcements would arrive, only for the deadline to come and go with no new additions. So when Fabio Borini broke a bone in his foot in October, it left Liverpool some three months to go with only one fit senior striker – Luis Suárez. This meant that, for example, when Suárez was suspended for the trip to West Ham, Jonjo Shelvey had to fill in upfront. Three months in this league with one fit striker is not a recipe for success, and many of us spent months fretting over what the club would do, if anything, in January to address this massive hole in the squad. In the end, it appears that Rodgers absolutely nailed it with Sturridge and Coutinho, as he needs to do on a regular basis with his major signings if he’s to have any hope of catching the top teams (two out of four so far, but as I’ve said before, I think that Borini could be excellent and Allen, well, we’ll have to wait and see). Everyone knows the talents that these two bring to the team, so I won’t repeat them here (this post is long enough). What I will say is that they give Liverpool arguably the most important attribute that any team can have – the ability to play badly and still win. The ability to say ‘I dunno how we actually won that’ thanks to a moment of magic (that Coutinho pass yesterday) or out-muscling a defender (Sturridge robbed a Fulham player yesterday in the second-half and arguably should have completed his hat-trick then) or just sheer pace (Wisdom’s ball out of defence for the first left Sturridge with everything to do, but he did it). Not saying that Liverpool didn't deserve to win yesterday, they did, but these are the kinds of players who can turn a game in a split-second regardless. Add in Suárez (who will stay) and the small matter of his 30 goals this season, and that’s what I mean when I talk about potential.

The season, as disappointing as it has been, is hopefully just the beginning. A start. As things stand, should Arsenal win their game in hand, Liverpool will sit 12 points off a Champions League place, and it’s difficult not to look back at certain moments and think of what might have been had certain self-inflicted mistakes not come to pass (both games against Manchester City, for example, Skrtel and Reina respectively, or Gerrard’s missed penalty at 0-0 against West Brom) or if the six goals against Newcastle at St. James Park or the nine scored against Norwich over the course of the season had been shared around a little more (prior to Fulham yesterday, Liverpool had drawn 0-0 three times in five games, against West Ham, Reading and Everton respectively). As crazy as it sounds, you take those six fixtures, eliminate the individual errors against Manchester City to see out a couple of 2-1 victories and score that penalty against the Baggies to (potentially) win a game that we ended up losing, then craft one, just one, goal to turn each of those three aforementioned stalemates into wins, and right now Liverpool are sitting on 71 points needing only to beat relegated QPR on the final day to finish on 74 points. The magical fourth place, and all because we found a way to turn five draws and one loss into six wins. Results balanced on the thinnest of knife edges which simply didn’t go for us, but ample evidence nonetheless that we may well be on the right road here despite the natural frustrations of a season so bloody inconsistent at times that the only win over a top-six team (Spurs at home, 3-2) was followed by an abject 3-1 defeat at Southampton and then a run of four draws in six, or where a comprehensive 4-0 win over Fulham in December was sandwiched between awful 3-1 losses to Aston Villa and Stoke respectively (and that’s without mentioning a wretched FA Cup exit to lower league opposition).

To finish:

1. We are high on entertainment value, aren't we? Are we in danger of being fun to support next season?

I think we’re always fun to support, maybe not to watch a lot of the time :) I think that’s already changed, to be honest. Coutinho and Suárez are already worth the price of admission alone, and we should never forget how lucky we are to get to watch players like this every week. I really can’t wait until next season.

2. How did we manage the midfield and defence while starting with the 3 at the back? Did you pine for Gerrard? Did you like the system?

We’ve seen the three at the back work well for Rodgers at times (second-half at Everton springs to mind) and not so well (he started with it for the 1-1 at Stamford Bridge, didn’t he, and switched back to a four in the second-half which resulted in a much better performance). I think yesterday was more the latter in that we played much better in the second-half with a four. What that means for the future I’m not sure, other than I don’t think it’s something we’ll see very often and is maybe better suited as a reactive measure (i.e. if there is a clear need to go to a three, given how the game is going, like at Goodison).

3. How did the fringe players do in staking their claims?

It’s probably ‘as you were’ for Coates, Shelvey and Wisdom. I really like Coates, and I think it’s worth working on his faults because there’s a player there and his height could potentially be very useful in solving one of our biggest problem areas i.e. set-pieces, both defensive and attacking. And I really like Borini, his movement was excellent as always yesterday and he was unlucky not to score. As someone (I think) on here said before, a couple of years back our centre-forward options were – Torres, Ngog. Now we’ve got Sturridge, Suárez, Borini. I really can’t wait until next season ;D

4. Sturridge and last but not least, Coutinho. I suppose that needs a question mark, so here's one?

Outlined above. I think we’ve absolutely nailed it with these two. Here's hoping that Rodgers continues to fill needs as well as this.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 03:32:14 pm »

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1. We are high on entertainment value, aren't we? Are we in danger of being fun to support next season?


We could easily end up being a lot of supporters' "Second team", in the way Newcastle under Keegan were, or to a lesser extent Liverpool under Evans. That's all fine and dandy, but if we put up any sort of challenge for the league, that will, of course, peter out and some supporters from other teams will go back to hating us :D


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2. How did we manage the midfield and defence while starting with the 3 at the back? Did you pine for Gerrard? Did you like the system?


I, of course, liked the system. But the problem was that it isolated Sturridge and Coutinho - not just in terms of support, but in terms of the plan to attack. It was predictable, and Johnson and Enrique weren't offering anything creative to lighten the load. On top of that, we rarely saw Henderson and Shelvey break beyond Sturridge on the counter, so it was relatively easy thing to defend. I don't think Gerrard would have made much difference with his passing, but his willingness to burst forward might have given Fulham something to think about. He also would have played Enrique into the game more, and that might have encouraged the team to push up more aggressively. What I liked about it, though, is that the central area was covered, and there were no real nerve-jangling moments on short goal kicks.

On the other hand, in the second half, there were several "heart-in-mouth" moments when Reina elected to play short when he had no real options to do so, and one bad touch from Lucas or badly weighted pass from Reina could have seen them in on goal (and they threatened that once or twice). The problem with the way we played the 3-5-2, though, was that it was really a 3-6-1, and that is just a turgid balance of players. It really needed the midfield to be Lucas-Henderson-Coutinho, and Borini-Sturridge up front to have more of an effect. This would have spread the Fulham defence more, and given Coutinho two points of attack to look for. As it was, he only had the one, and that made our play too predictable in the first half - exactly the situation all defences want to be in.

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3. How did the fringe players do in staking their claims?

Shelvey had one of his better games, but his limitations (for me) are still all too obvious. I agree (and have been saying for ages too) with Yorkykopite, that he needs a serious eye test. But I paid special attention to Shelvey yesterday, and watched his head and eyes every time he was within playing range. It's always interesting when you're scouting an individual player, to see what he has. First you look at his general fitness - is he sharp, quick, agile, does he have good separation speed, is he strong, can he jump, etc? Then you look at his first touch, his second touch, his 1v1 ability, his passing range and his shot. After that, though, you want to see what his game IQ is, and there are a few "tells" that you can look for that give the game away very quickly. The first one is positional discipline. Unless he's clearly the "free" player, if he starts in a "set" position but ends up wandering all over the place, then that is a black mark against him. Shelvey has a tendency to do this, but yesterday he was quite disciplined in the first half, and when he was moved out to the left for the second half, he only occasionally drifted inside when he shouldn't have. The second one, and the one that I was paying attention to, is his reading of the game - and more specifically, how his head and eyes move when he doesn't have the ball. And this is Shelvey's big let-down - he doesn't look up and scan the field until the ball is at his feet. He moves, he receives, he looks up, and then he plays. He also consistently looks for the "big" pass rather than playing the simpler pass. This means he isn't seeing the game and reading it effectively.

Contrast this with Gerrard and Coutinho, say, who both constantly look around before the ball arrives, allowing them to play first time passes accurately to moving players, because they have seen them well beforehand (although interestingly, they both do it in very national-characteristic ways - Gerrard does the traditional British "Checking both shoulders" look, whereas Coutinho looks at the "Brazilian Diagonals" to see where the players are. More on that anon). So Shelvey, for all his foot-skills, is let down by his lack of "vision". And this is one more reason why a few of us reckon he has eye problems he doesn't seem to want to get fixed - this "tunnel vision" and "wait and play" style is a classic symptom of a player playing without corrective eye-wear. The most liberating thing he could do is get contact lenses. The good news is - if he does this, his peripheral vision and overall ability to get his head up and read the play before it happens will improve immensely. Then it comes down to hunger and mentality and patience for him.

Coates did well. He was solid, won his headers, distributed the ball well, and was calm in both systems. If we were to lose Skrtel but keep Coates and A.N. Other new defender, I wouldn't be disappointed (and vice versa). He has potential, but the key for him and the club is how patient he is willing to be to become a starting defender.

Wisdom didn't do too bad, but contrary to what some have said elsewhere, he wasn't at fault for the goal. He played in the exact position he should have been in as the cross came in. It was Johnson, caught ball-watching yet again, who should have picked Berbatov up. But Wisdom didn't to anything spectacular either, and he was the natural choice to come off the field for Enrique to switch to the back four in the second half.

Coady not on long enough to make any impact, but didn't seem phased by the level of the game, and that bodes well for the future.

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4. Sturridge and last but not least, Coutinho. I suppose that needs a question mark, so here's one?

Sturridge was excellent. I can understand where he was coming from with the greedy shots in the second half, but if he adds that quick one-second look up before deciding to shoot, and chooses more wisely, the team will be a large leap better off for it. And funnily enough, I think that hat-trick might be the thing that helps him in that direction - I wasn't aware it was his first senior hat-trick, so that's probably a weight off his mind. I suspect we might see him being more generous against QPR next week (and given my uncanny accuracy in predicting his hat-trick, I'm hoping the gods are smiling on that little prediction too :D)

As for Coutinho, he gets his own special section:

The Tao of Coutinho

To understand Coutinho, you have to understand Brazilian Coaching. To understand Brazilian coaching, and Brazilian football, you have to understand the four principles of their attacking game, because Coutinho is almost a poster-boy for their methodology. The four principles of Brazilian play are:

  • Minimal touches on the ball
  • Ball on the ground as often as possible
  • Switch the point of attack often
  • Diagonal passing and movement


If we look at the first one, we can check out not just subjectively, but also objectively how this applies to Coutinho. Objectively, as I have mentioned in a few Round Tables, Coutinho often has one of the least amounts of touches in the team in each game, or somewhere in the middle. Yesterday he touched the ball less than both Carragher and Coates. This is a common occurrence for Coutinho. Yet, subjectively, we can say that his touches are quality. He does something with the ball every time that moves the game on, and the ball or an attack rarely, if ever, gets stuck with Coutinho. This is related to the other three principles. He keeps the ball settled on the ground, with the occasional and devastating unleashing of a chipped or lobbed or driven ball in the air. Compare this to Gerrard, who plays a lot more balls off the ground, to often equally devastating effect. But Coutinho's work is generally done on the ground, and it keeps his game neat and tidy. He controls the ball - it never controls him. As soon as it arrives, it gets settled within 2 touches, and the 3rd touch delivers the pass.

In terms of the other two principles, which are connected, you can see if you watch his head movements and eye movements on replays, that he always looks to the diagonal spaces. This is why the pass to Sturridge against Newcastle was both unexpected and also a no-look pass too. He moves himself into positions where his options are always on the diagonal to him (watch his movement and positioning closely in the next game - he rarely goes square or vertical to a standing player - he'll always shift to the diagonal), and he passes quickly into those spaces ahead of him because he has already established that the player is there, and he just needs to get the pass in front of them. When he dribbles, he moves on the diagonal, but switches the direction of the ball with every touch to keep the defender guessing as to which side he'll accelerate to. This again is a very Brazilian thing to do. It's not "straight-ahead" dribbling like, say Bale or Downing (when he does go at players). It switches the point of attack with every touch, and creates a moment of time and space which allows him to make the final burst (or creates the space to pass). His off-ball movement is also based on diagonal support, so when a player is receiving the ball in his area, he will either drop off at the angle, or make the forward run to create the angle. If we had a whole team who did that, there wouldn't be a team in Europe that could easily mark us. But even without that, if we have everyone else on the team understanding the four principles that dictate how Coutinho plays the game, then he will only improve both his own play and the team's play too.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 03:44:35 pm »
think my negative bias is showing because I didn't see anything yesterday that was different than we've been since January

Sturridge is an excellent player, better through the middle than wide - skillful on the ball - the downside remains his ego and his fitness record both of which are hopefully manageable. I thought the timing of his goal yesterday was key - it kept our heads up when potentially we may have felt sorry for ourselves. Not sure what it is about the lad two beautiful bits of creativity and excellent finishes  but some daft selfishness and lack of team play as well, human I guess.

Coutinho is an excellent player in time and space - superb touch, delivery and vision and his timing is immaculate - the power he generates is superb but I can't see the 'strength' thing - tricky and persistent maybe but still needs a minder or the game to open up to really deliver I think - at his age though blimey the lad has class. He's 4 months younger than Shelvey. Jonjo's head doesn't seem in it for me - its seems more about show than delivery with him - I guess thats what 'pressure' can do - there is  a very good player in there, he's trying to hard to show it though I think.

We remain poor at the back, especially in the air - we were the 'better side' and yet for 20 minutes either side of half time we weren't - the only time Fulham really tried and we went missing, coincidence?

We conceded from their first real chance.... we missed our own chances again and again......... we lack that clinical control of games when we impose our authority on the game - maybe because we dont have any real leadership - I guess we did have two 20 year olds in the centre

The messing around at the back wasn't inspiring and Pepe's distribution a bit wonky under Fulhams pressing game -

Johnson remains a concern if ever a player was going through the motions its him, another daft petulant tackle whats up with the lad?

BR's use of different formations was interesting especially in light of some calls for a back 3 for next season - dont think it worked particularly well and in view of the chance none of those three will be playing next year a bit odd.

Borini's movement was good, so unlucky with the shot that hit the post another who could be useful next year if they are still around. Suarez left, Borini right Coutinho in behind Sturridge, goals shouldn't be an issue but we'll need some top class, one on one defenders to give that lot the platform they need and cover for the inevitable injuries and suspensions we'll get. Interesting times.

Coady getting a premiership debut was nice to see, since training at melwood he's come on a bundle by all accounts

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 11:34:05 pm »
I think there were three stand-out performances.

Sturridge........at times he was surrounded yet with a couple of shimmies he was away. His pace at times was stunning. His first goal was really well taken. He used his burst of pace and then unleashed a fierce shot. His 2nd wasn't too shabby either with a deft pass past the keeper. When Sturridge is on form then he is a delight to watch and he is going to get better.

The 2nd gem that we have is Coutinho. He is so natural on the ball and has a great pass. I see him making the AM position his own and bieng one of the first names on the starting sheet. He played a couple of first class passes and his understanding with Sturridge is developing well.

Lastly is the guy who has knuckled down and has come through a bad patch and is now looking the player that we hoped. He has a bit more to do but the signs are very promising........oh yes his name is Henderson.

Final words. I liked the reception that Riise got.........nice touch.

Pepe had a couple of solid saves that could easily have sneaked in.

MOTM by a mile was Sturridge. He and Suarez will be the league's top scorers next year (yes both of them).

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 04:19:35 am »
I read an interesting set of stats today on Coutinho and it got me wondering how much has Rodgers coaching directly contributed to Coutinho's sudden improvement relative to his form at Inter Milan. Half of it may be the opportunity but at Inter Coutinho average 4.4 successful dribbles a game where as at Liverpool he's now averaging 1.3 per game. That's a stark contract and I wonder is it a statistical anomaly born from the small sample size of games or is this Rodgers making an adjustment?

My gut feeling is Rodgers consciously adjusted Coutinho's game, pressing upon him the philosophy of pass and move with few touches. Something POP pointed out is a familiar concept for a Brazilian but with a twist. Rodgers I think has told Coutinho to be more selective in beating a man kill and dribbling and instead to look to beat a man with his passing. To me at least it's the emphasis on passing that's had a profound effect on Coutinho's game. Then again it could just be a statistical anomaly where Coutinho just need the opportunity to shine.  How do you guys see it?

 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 04:22:05 am by DanA »
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 04:26:28 am »
I read an interesting set of stats today on Coutinho and it got me wondering how much has Rodgers coaching directly contributed to Coutinho's sudden improvement relative to his form at Inter Milan. Half of it may be the opportunity but at Inter Coutinho average 4.4 successful dribbles a game where as at Liverpool he's now averaging 1.3 per game. That's a stark contract and I wonder is it a statistical anomaly born from the small sample size of games or is this Rodgers making an adjustment?

My gut feeling is Rodgers consciously adjusted Coutinho's game, pressing upon him the philosophy of pass and move with few touches. Something POP pointed out is a familiar concept for a Brazilian but with a twist. Rodgers I think has told Coutinho to be more selective in beating a man kill and dribbling and instead to look to beat a man with his passing. To me at least it's the emphasis on passing that's had a profound effect on Coutinho's game. Then again it could just be a statistical anomaly where Coutinho just need the opportunity to shine.  How do you guys see it?

From what I have seen Inter play generally at a much lower tempo than us and don't move the ball forward as fast. At Inter he was also generally playing on the wing so he often tried to dribble more through packed defences. We transition from defence to attack so fast that he has  more opportunity to pick passes and play through balls so  he doesn't need to beat players. In many ways our attacking style(at least january onwards) is much closer to what he was probably used to in Brazil.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 08:30:00 am »
Thanks for the plug, Royhendo!

Whilst our play has been entertaining against weaker defences, we still have to address the opponents which press high like Stoke. We can't allow Reina and the back 4 to muck around and gift the opposition strikers a clear shot or goal. With Carra gone, defence will be a concern. Johnson's indifferent form also exacerbates the problem.

I too, am not sold on Shelvey. He doesn't have the vision as a creative midfielder nor the legs to be a defensive mid. He can't really score goals so I'm not sure how useful he'll be.

Exciting times ahead as long as the key areas of weakness are addressed

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 12:04:11 pm »
I think whats important to highlight is that we came from behind without Gerrard. Without Suarez and without Agger. That is a world-class spine, and we absolutely hammered Fulham. So we showed good character as well as ability.

Our more direct style of play was pretty good I thought. Sturridge's attitude towards the game was brilliant the stick he got, and how he silenced them. The first goal was a sublime finish with his wrong foot with Gerrard-like power. I think that is one thing that I've underestimated in our new English forward. His pace was evident, but his power and strength will become a feature of his play. For a player who likes to take touches of the ball, those are very important attributes.

I still think there is more to come from the ex-curly haired brazillian. I question why some fans think we need a new number 10 when we have one with great ability and potential.

Thought Coates has a lot about him. He looked pretty good in the 3, and not too shabby in a 2 too. He's still only young, but I like the look of him. I just cant warm to Shelvey. He didnt have a bad game though, his movement was good, kept the ball okay too. Who knows, maybe something will click with him next season. I wish Coady came on earlier, would have liked to have seen more of him.

Some great posts on the thread lads.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 12:14:24 pm »
I read an interesting set of stats today on Coutinho and it got me wondering how much has Rodgers coaching directly contributed to Coutinho's sudden improvement relative to his form at Inter Milan. Half of it may be the opportunity but at Inter Coutinho average 4.4 successful dribbles a game where as at Liverpool he's now averaging 1.3 per game. That's a stark contract and I wonder is it a statistical anomaly born from the small sample size of games or is this Rodgers making an adjustment?

My gut feeling is Rodgers consciously adjusted Coutinho's game, pressing upon him the philosophy of pass and move with few touches. Something POP pointed out is a familiar concept for a Brazilian but with a twist. Rodgers I think has told Coutinho to be more selective in beating a man kill and dribbling and instead to look to beat a man with his passing. To me at least it's the emphasis on passing that's had a profound effect on Coutinho's game. Then again it could just be a statistical anomaly where Coutinho just need the opportunity to shine.  How do you guys see it?

 

It's a statistical anomaly based on small sample size
On some measures he's ahead of the entire league by a distance which is obviously not going to last
Basically he's 'run hot' in terms of his chance creation and assists level

This does not mean he isn't the most exciting signing since Torres (and yeah I'm including Suarez).
He is the player we've lacked for maybe 20 years who can do something magical, see the pass others can't and unlock a packed defence
The question is if he can fulfill his potential and go on to be a Silva/Mata level player - this will come down to his work ethic as an individual and the players we put around him
We just shouldn't expect this level of chance creation on a regular basis as it'll even out more - but when he does go through a dip it would be good if we didn't all jump on his back and declare him not good enough

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 12:57:14 pm »
Thanks for the plug, Royhendo!

No bother Sir. And to the contributors on what is only a one page thread, thanks for some of the best stuff I've read on here in ages. A treat.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 01:25:18 pm »
1. We are high on entertainment value, aren't we? Are we in danger of being fun to support next season?

It's worrying to say the least, but in order to avoid too much optimism I present West Ham, Everton and Stoke at home!  We do look like a team that needs that first goal and then we are rocking.  When we score one we look like we could score a hatful.

2. How did we manage the midfield and defence while starting with the 3 at the back? Did you pine for Gerrard? Did you like the system?

Early days, I like the concept and until we conceded it looked to be working.  I don't think Downing fits that left side role very well (enrique would be better).  Aside from a spell at 1-1 when we seemed to be going backwards I through the midfield did a grand job.  Woeful defending for their goal though - ah well!

3. How did the fringe players do in staking their claims?

Mixed.  I actually thought Wisdom did ok and he arguably deserved to stay on ahead of Coates in the second half, but I guess we don't want to rush the lad.  Coates and Shelvey were poor in my opinion.  I feel sorry for both of them as they haven't had a lot of top level games, but in Shelveys case he's gone so far backwards I am really questioning his future.  There's talent there, but it just feels like he doesn't have a tactical mind at all.  Coates scares me whenever he has the ball and just doesn't full me with confidence.  I dunno... I want them to do well, but from what little first team action they've seen I'm very unimpressed.

4. Sturridge and last but not least, Coutinho. I suppose that needs a question mark, so here's one?

Awesome players.  Sturridge is definitely a confidence player.  I thought he'd looked a bit off the boil until he scored his first, then he became unplayable.  Stunning goals and as has been said he could have had 6!

Coutinho cannot be given an inch of space and I love that his passing with the outside of his boot has now wrong-sided two defences in recent weeks.  The real challenge will come as teams start to surround him.  The advantage we have is that this should free up the likes of Gerrard, Suarez and Sturridge.  Strength in depth is what it's all about.

Oh and that little backheel from Sturridge to setup Borini was a thing of beauty!

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 01:55:10 pm »
It's a statistical anomaly based on small sample size
On some measures he's ahead of the entire league by a distance which is obviously not going to last
Basically he's 'run hot' in terms of his chance creation and assists level

This does not mean he isn't the most exciting signing since Torres (and yeah I'm including Suarez).
He is the player we've lacked for maybe 20 years who can do something magical, see the pass others can't and unlock a packed defence
The question is if he can fulfill his potential and go on to be a Silva/Mata level player - this will come down to his work ethic as an individual and the players we put around him
We just shouldn't expect this level of chance creation on a regular basis as it'll even out more - but when he does go through a dip it would be good if we didn't all jump on his back and declare him not good enough

I think yes there is definitely an element of statistical anomaly in that he can't be expected to maintain this ridiculous high level of chance creation but I was meaning more from the perspective of the dribbling stats I mentioned. Is he playing better because he's made an adjustment or as Max Powers mentioned, because he's playing in a faster league, in a setup that suits him better and that he feels more comfortable playing his natural game, which he couldn't in Italy. Or am I just see something where there is nothing?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 01:56:56 pm by DanA »
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 01:59:15 pm »
The lads on the Anfield Wrap mentioned that opening with 3 at the back and to switch it to a more recognisable shape at half time was a pre-meditated move. A continued look at this possibility towards the tail of the season in a game that mattered little in the race for any spot, although there was still a feint chance we could pip Everton to 6th, but for me, taking this game on as a kind of pre-season game pleases me. We've buggered around with pre-season games for so long now, that I'm taking this as a hint that we'll try and play it a bit better this time, and move into next season on the front foot from the off. I expect something similar v QPR in what is a dead rubber, on last on MoTD type game... Wisdom at CB, Allen, Borini... Coutinho left... that kind of thing. Obviously both teams will want to win, but there's wriggle room to look at options once more.

And of course it would be refreshing to have the summer window done and dusted for that last pre-season game, but there's a lot of work to do. There may be one of those late aquisitions before Aug 31, but you'd hope we'd have learnt from the monumental cock up of last year. On September 1st, around midnight, 6th would have been some achievement for me - but we just fell short. Thankfully, January was very very good for us.

I was never totally convinced with Suarez as the focal point of the attack, not totally... it always looked a bit scruffy for me, and although he did supremely well as that lone striker (or false 9 etc), I always thought we needed somebody who was a little calmer at the front and Sturridge has stepped in. Took his goals very very well, and his all round game is also very good. He gets criticised about being a bit greedy... and he is at times, but I'm OK with that. He also gets criticised for having an ego... but again, I'm OK with that. I actually think we require it. But the best thing about him, and what Rodgers is trying to assemble I think, is having front players able to play with both feet. Smashed his first in with his right, slotted cooly in for his second with his left. Lovely.

There has been much discussion about where he ideally plays, and where Suarez ideally plays and where Coutinho ideally plays, but I enjoy the question mark. I think that's good for us. It's fair to say that one or two have done better in a particular position so far over others, but I don't think it's necessary to pin anything down. I would tho love to see us pin down an experienced bone-fide wide player who can also play in the number 10 slot in the summer - someone again two footed, who gets most of his enjoyment from setting up goals. I won't mention his name, but surely we have to go thru it all one last time  ;D

When the news broke that Fergusson was off, and Moyes was looking likely (it was always going to be Moyes for me) I was in my local roll/sandwich/newsagent place near work and I must have been wearing my ragged 70's LFC replica top, because after going there for months, a young lad (19/20 ish) who works there piped up with a.. 'So do you think Benitez will be in Liverpool next season?'. I just assumed he was talking about the Everton job, and I said something along the lines of 'out of the frying pan' and ended with a nah. He then said we should sell Sturridge... 'he's crap.' Can't remember my reply, but the reply was brief. So I go in yesterday, and go 'So you think we should still sell him?' He didn't remember the conversation, so I had to coax it out of him slowly... 'he's still shit tho.' I just smiled.

It's the same with a fella (Liverpool fan) I work with... I was gushing about Coutinho, and all he could say was ' yeah, but he was shite against Chelsea.' There's just no point sometimes is there?

But what a bloody lovely player.

 


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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 02:00:11 pm »
For me, the 3 at the back may be able to work - but only if we get 1/2 monstrous center backs and 2 wing backs for the system.

Enrique may work as a left wing back, but as we saw Johnson is prone to switching off and Downing is not a wing back - he cant defend!

Other than that - I enjoyed the game! :)
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 03:00:11 pm »
And this is Shelvey's big let-down - he doesn't look up and scan the field until the ball is at his feet. He moves, he receives, he looks up, and then he plays. He also consistently looks for the "big" pass rather than playing the simpler pass. This means he isn't seeing the game and reading it effectively.

Contrast this with Gerrard and Coutinho, say, who both constantly look around before the ball arrives, allowing them to play first time passes accurately to moving players, because they have seen them well beforehand (although interestingly, they both do it in very national-characteristic ways - Gerrard does the traditional British "Checking both shoulders" look, whereas Coutinho looks at the "Brazilian Diagonals" to see where the players are. More on that anon). So Shelvey, for all his foot-skills, is let down by his lack of "vision". And this is one more reason why a few of us reckon he has eye problems he doesn't seem to want to get fixed - this "tunnel vision" and "wait and play" style is a classic symptom of a player playing without corrective eye-wear. The most liberating thing he could do is get contact lenses. The good news is - if he does this, his peripheral vision and overall ability to get his head up and read the play before it happens will improve immensely. Then it comes down to hunger and mentality and patience for him.

And the poster boy for this vision is imho Xavi who does it brilliantly. But this lack of vision is a thing that has been apparent in Shelvey's game even for a layman like myself for a good while, so I seriously doubt that it's an actual physical issue. Suggesting Jonjo taking a trip to the optician is not a new idea on these boards, so surely someone at the club has had the same idea. He even takes the piss out of his visually impaired family with his celebration.. this suggest to me that it's just something he hasn't learned to incorporate in his game, perhaps because other good qualities have carried him this far. But if he really wants to be a top midfield player, he needs to spend the summer vacation watching some Xavi compilations in youtube.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 06:28:40 pm by moloch »

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 03:32:21 pm »


Suggesting Jonjo taking a trip to the optician is not a new idea on these boards, so surely someone at the club has had the same idea. He even takes the piss out of his visually impaired family with his celebration..

He does take the piss out of his entire family. They're all short-sighted. But there's the clue that there might be something wrong with his vision as well. Is it genetic? The fact he takes the piss might even make it harder for him to own up to his own failings.

It's possible that bad vision is creeping up on him. It doesn't have to be terrible in order to dull reaction times and turn a ball slightly fuzzy at the edges. Shelvey is wonderfully skilled when hitting a ball that's already at his feet. His close control is nearly immaculate. But a lot of Liverpool fans have noticed that he's messy when pulling a long ball down -and often outright inept. Was it v Villa where he completely miscued in front of goal? I think it was. But it's happened a few times this season when he's been asked to hit a volley or connect with a cross.

Check out these two. The first in particular shows all the hallmarks of someone (clearly) seeing the ball very late. It means his attempted header is 50 per cent guesswork. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNczMDWbgGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITPRWnEWldw
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 06:33:31 pm »
He does take the piss out of his entire family. They're all short-sighted. But there's the clue that there might be something wrong with his vision as well. Is it genetic? The fact he takes the piss might even make it harder for him to own up to his own failings.

I see where you're coming from, but it still seems implausible to me that no one at the club wouldn't have thought to give the lad a check up regarding this. On the other hand it took myself years to admit that I need specs in my day to day life. But then again I'm not paid fortunes to play football and the only thing I might've missed was the correct bus. ;)


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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 06:54:14 pm »
And to the contributors on what is only a one page thread, thanks for some of the best stuff I've read on here in ages. A treat.

Just about to say the exact same thing big man.



1. We are high on entertainment value, aren't we? Are we in danger of being fun to support next season?

2. How did we manage the midfield and defence while starting with the 3 at the back? Did you pine for Gerrard? Did you like the system?

3. How did the fringe players do in staking their claims?

4. Sturridge and last but not least, Coutinho. I suppose that needs a question mark, so here's one?

Over to you guys.

1. Always a joy, but I hope next season it's more fun as in the excitement of just climbing the slope on a roller coaster rather than the ups and downs that follow it.

2. I thought we were doing well in midfield, but the forward play suffered as a result. Still, it was a good time to take training ground tactics onto the field of battle to see how it played out. I think it could be important to us next season in closing games out, so I was happy to see it. But to get the most out of it, we've got to learn to stop letting people attack the ball from set pieces.

3. Mmmmm. Nice to see Coady getting a debut. To me, Shelvey has got more confidence than ability at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I like him and think he's got the potential to become a much better player, but I don't think he did well enough to stake his claims for a regular place in the event of injuries to key players. Fingers crossed for him. Wisdom on the other hand showed that he's a very talented kid, and I'd be confident with him filling in at right back or centre half. That was no hit and hope for Sturridge's first - you could see him looking up and making the space for it.

4. Sturridge just makes me want to scream. Why didn't we take him as part of the deal for Torres? Fucking gobshite Comolli. And anyone saying he was greedy trying to get his hat trick, well I'm sorry but i don't blame him. If I was him, no way would I have squared that ball to Shelvey. Gerrard or Suarez and I'd have had a cob on.
And Coutinho? I'm scared of the hyperbole I might come out with, so I'll dampen it down by saying that the defender was lookingstraight at him and couldn't read that ball. It was magnificent. The great thing for us for next season is that it was no fluke, and I don't think any opposition defender will be any better equipped to deal with him if they studied every second of one of MKB's compilation videos. Unpredictably predictable or predictably unpredictable. Either way, it's frightening to think how good he's going to become.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 10:03:22 pm »
Just to touch up on the Shelvey discussion. I would say that this was arguably his best "midfield" performance in a long time, an obvious improvement following his time in that role with the U-21's (or whatever they're called today). But there endeth the improvement. Was debating this very subject with Cpt. Reina and Breakfast Percy on twitter after the game that Shelvey has always been a very good player but there is, funnily enough considering the above debate, a distinct lack of visible progress. He's been here for over 3 years now, bar a few months on loan and apart from a wee bit more patience there's very little difference from Shelvey's debut to Shelvey's 69th appearance at the weekend. His fitness levels (or lack thereof?) are pretty much the same. His passing is inconsistent and sporadic, ranging from magical to maddening. He does the complex things at an absolute top level but he is as fundamentally flawed doing the very basic things as he has ever been. He's played close to 100 league games in his career on top of some 20-30 cup games and friendlies. But it still feels very laborious from Shelvey. You would think that someone with his natural talent this would be second nature by now, but it isn't. I won't comment on his eye sight (basically because it took me years to accept the same problem and even I'm not that hypocritical) but it's other things too. He's been here for 3 years and he still seems puzzled by his team mates. Coutinho can find Sturridge without looking at him, I still get a sense of surprise when Shelvey doesn't over- and/or underhit passes to Johnson and Enrique. Johnson wants the ball at his feet and attack the space, Enrique wants to outpace the opposition and find a team mate as soon as possible. You would've thought, training with them week in, week out Shelvey was aware of this.

I've said this multiple times before - although I feel his performance against Fulham was quite good - there's something off. He's gone through stages where he's effectively played himself out of the team. Then there was his dismissive attitude to the NextGen thing. I don't know maybe I'm reading too much into this, wouldn't be the first. But Shelvey seems rather satisfied with where he is right now. Mentioned it at the weekend where following his loan to the Championship he came back much more self assured than someone who learned to work hard. Cpt Reina put it quite succinctly "He pissed it at that level. Absolutely waltzed through it. And he knows it." He got the big move in the beginning of his career, he scored some goals, he got his name in the folklore, he made the news for telling Ferguson to fuck off and I can't shake the feeling that he's quite happy with that.

There's 10-15 PL clubs that would snap him up without a moment's hesitation. He doesn't want to go abroad, nor does he need to and he's still set for life. A cult status at a club where inconsistency and the occasional bit of magic earns you a statue and a generation of kids named after you. I think Shelvey is a lot like the Evans/Houllier English players we had. McAteer, Murphy, Mellor et al. Showed good promise, did a good enough job, provided some memories but that's it really. They all had solid premiership careers, they got to play for Liverpool but there was no real progress from them. I can't help but think Shelvey will go the same route. I think he's better than them granted, maybe more Redknapp-esque but still not quite the attitude you want. He's already made it, if this fails he's got a dozens options to fall back on without it impacting his lifestyle or bank account in anyway.


Or maybe he just needs a pair of glasses, who knows? :P


As for the RT questions.

1. We are high on entertainment value, aren't we? Are we in danger of being fun to support next season?

I think we're very much fun, we get a lot of talk at least. People watch our games, we offer goals and controversy. What more can a neutral ask for? As for next season I can see us being a hybrid of Spalletti's Roma and Pellegrini's Villarreal. Lot of characters, lots of talent, unorthodox and at odds with the rest and most importantly fun to watch. Bring it on, I say.

2. How did we manage the midfield and defence while starting with the 3 at the back? Did you pine for Gerrard? Did you like the system?

I love a good 3 at the back. It has to be said though that Wisdom-Coates-Carragher didn't really offer the same tingly feeling in my hipster soul as a Barzagli-Bonucci-Chiellini, Lucio-Edmilson-Junior or Abidal-Pique-Puyol but I did enjoy it nontheless. Would've loved to see Agger in Carra's place to see how it would've faired with a ballplaying center-back rather than a ... *bites tongue and remembers retirement*.

Didn't really miss Gerrard, Lucas had things firmly under control and with only Bryan Ruiz (whom I very much admire) threatening us it wasn't a real issue. Had Berbatov pushed up on Lucas it would've been a concern with Henderson and Shelvey but then again, it was Berbatov.

3. How did the fringe players do in staking their claims?

I won't talk about poor Jonjo anymore but I quite enjoyed seeing Coates. He was very good in the air, the "where did he come from?" tackles and got in a few successful blocks and clearances to cover for his inexperienced and ageing partners. Wisdom did about as well as you'd expect. Nothing that good or bad. Really tough to make any sort of judgement on him as a center back considering he was sometimes a fullback, sometimes a centerback and at times neither. It was a new system for all involved so it was good enough I suppose. Kudos to him though for keeping his head up and bagging the "assist"

4. Sturridge and last but not least, Coutinho. I suppose that needs a question mark, so here's one?

Coutinho is a work of art. The boy is like Leonardo Da Vinci who actually works hard to maintain his genuis. Everything he pulls off is magical and he's got a real knack for the English game. So often we see players of his stature bullied but he's perfected the 'hit & run' technique of winning the ball. It really is wonderful to behold, and what he does when he has the ball is nothing short of magical.

As for Sturridge I was delighted for him. He's in good form, with a point to prove and he's not letting up which is always a positive. Another thing I will comment on is that much like Shelvey's celebration his trademark dance (?) is the ultimate catch 22. It's something you want to witness every week but never want to see again.

Kudos to the pair of them. They were outstanding and deservingly have taken the plaudits for their performance.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 11:18:42 pm »
Some great contributions so far, thanks all.  Here's my brief tuppence worth...

I didn't like the system in the first half and was delighted with the change at half time.

Here's the thing.  A 3-5-2, or whatever numerical code you want to give it, has a significant limitation in wide areas.  Essentially you only have one player on the wings in attack and defence.  Before we conceded, Fulham had two overlaps down their right wing, where it took them an eternity to set up the pass, yet we allowed them to work the two on one situation.  Seriously, it was embarrassingly poor defending.  This also happened to release the man who set up their goal.  I know there'll be 'teething problems' embedding new systems, but that was basic level errors through not reading the game.

In attack, Sturridge was providing an outlet in wide areas, but was extremely isolated.  I don't recall us getting our wingbacks into the game and we looked pretty toothless.

A better use of a 3 man defence, for me, would be to play it with our normal front line shape.  More of a 3-4-3 if you like.  This would allow us the option of having one of the three CBs to step forward to return us to the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 providing a quite subtle but aggressive shift in balance.  We do need a particular type of player for that though, in the Franz Beckenbauer mould.  Interestingly, there do seem to be a fair few young players who have the physical/technical attributes to do this job (David Luiz?), the bit that's harder to guage is the mental/tactical characteristics needed.

The highlight for me was Coutinho, my new favourite player.  I make a point normally of staying away from over-hyping players, but I can't help myself in this boy's case.  I have a particular professional interest in perceptual skills, decision making and motor control etc (maybe there's a 'Systems' article expanding on this in the future?).  People talk about 'vision' a lot, but the physical side of 'being able to see' isn't the important part, the key is the ability of the human brain to decode this information quickly, accurately and utilise it to make effective decisions (normally so quickly it can't be a conscious act).  This boy has this skill set in abundance and has the technical skill to use it.  What a player he could be.  I actually think Borini will be a bit of a revelation playing with him, as his movement is excellent and Coutinho can find him.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:19 pm »
Some great contributions so far, thanks all.  Here's my brief tuppence worth...

I didn't like the system in the first half and was delighted with the change at half time.

Here's the thing.  A 3-5-2, or whatever numerical code you want to give it, has a significant limitation in wide areas.  Essentially you only have one player on the wings in attack and defence.  Before we conceded, Fulham had two overlaps down their right wing, where it took them an eternity to set up the pass, yet we allowed them to work the two on one situation.  Seriously, it was embarrassingly poor defending.  This also happened to release the man who set up their goal.  I know there'll be 'teething problems' embedding new systems, but that was basic level errors through not reading the game.

In attack, Sturridge was providing an outlet in wide areas, but was extremely isolated.  I don't recall us getting our wingbacks into the game and we looked pretty toothless.

A better use of a 3 man defence, for me, would be to play it with our normal front line shape.  More of a 3-4-3 if you like.  This would allow us the option of having one of the three CBs to step forward to return us to the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 providing a quite subtle but aggressive shift in balance.  We do need a particular type of player for that though, in the Franz Beckenbauer mould.  Interestingly, there do seem to be a fair few young players who have the physical/technical attributes to do this job (David Luiz?), the bit that's harder to guage is the mental/tactical characteristics needed.

The highlight for me was Coutinho, my new favourite player.  I make a point normally of staying away from over-hyping players, but I can't help myself in this boy's case.  I have a particular professional interest in perceptual skills, decision making and motor control etc (maybe there's a 'Systems' article expanding on this in the future?).  People talk about 'vision' a lot, but the physical side of 'being able to see' isn't the important part, the key is the ability of the human brain to decode this information quickly, accurately and utilise it to make effective decisions (normally so quickly it can't be a conscious act).  This boy has this skill set in abundance and has the technical skill to use it.  What a player he could be.  I actually think Borini will be a bit of a revelation playing with him, as his movement is excellent and Coutinho can find him.
Since Suarez has been out, people have been talking about Coutinho playing as an AM instead of a LW. For me, I prefer him there because it allows him to use the space between the lines and be constantly involved in linking play. He also has freedom there: if he plays LW with too much freedom, it impacts on transition defence down that side. In the middle, it's easier to keep defensive structure behind him.

This is why the three (of five depending on how it's played) at the back is such an interesting proposition. If we play Coutinho as an AM in a 4-2-3-1, it means that either Sturridge or Suarez have to play wide. However, if you play 3-4-1-2, then you can use all three through the middle, without the impact on transition defence in the wide areas - you can create compensation mechanisms for having only one player down each flank and either way, you have three CBs covering. If it's worked on enough in training, it can be transferred to games.

The other formation proposition to get all three playing through the middle is the 4-3-1-2. Again with this there's a natural weakness in the wide areas but it gives freedom to the front three and you always have the FBs providing width, with the three midfielders controlling the space behind Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge. I think there's definitely a possibility that Rodgers will look to implement these formations next season, particularly the 3-4-1-2, because they suit our players quite well. If we have more options on top of the 4-2-3-1, then we can be more flexible during games.

Sorry, this post is not strictly on Fulham but I think there's some interesting points to make.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:36 pm »
Since Suarez has been out, people have been talking about Coutinho playing as an AM instead of a LW. For me, I prefer him there because it allows him to use the space between the lines and be constantly involved in linking play. He also has freedom there: if he plays LW with too much freedom, it impacts on transition defence down that side. In the middle, it's easier to keep defensive structure behind him.

This is why the three (of five depending on how it's played) at the back is such an interesting proposition. If we play Coutinho as an AM in a 4-2-3-1, it means that either Sturridge or Suarez have to play wide. However, if you play 3-4-1-2, then you can use all three through the middle, without the impact on transition defence in the wide areas - you can create compensation mechanisms for having only one player down each flank and either way, you have three CBs covering. If it's worked on enough in training, it can be transferred to games.

The other formation proposition to get all three playing through the middle is the 4-3-1-2. Again with this there's a natural weakness in the wide areas but it gives freedom to the front three and you always have the FBs providing width, with the three midfielders controlling the space behind Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge. I think there's definitely a possibility that Rodgers will look to implement these formations next season, particularly the 3-4-1-2, because they suit our players quite well. If we have more options on top of the 4-2-3-1, then we can be more flexible during games.

Sorry, this post is not strictly on Fulham but I think there's some interesting points to make.

Well made points.

I just thought those overlaps were awful and typical of a CB in a back 5 not knowing he needs to become a full back in that situation.  Shifting from a back 5 to a back 4 in play is the simplest solution.  We just didn't do it, hence my rant  :D

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 12:04:11 am »
The problem I think is that in switching to the 3 at the back we had players who played as if it was two central defenders. This lead to the overloads on the wings, which didn't have to exist.

If we look at a wide attack down the right, defending from a 3-4-1-2, say, we can see the way we defended the overlap against Fulham:



This, of course, produced moments when there were 2v1 situations in the channels (Zones 16 and 18 if you follow that method) which Fulham exploited. The issue is that if the three central defenders think like a "2", these situations will occur. However, if they realise that they are actually at a numerical advantage in the middle, they can nullify the 2v1 by sending the nearest central defender out to double-team, while still maintaining strength in the middle:



This effectively gives the defence the feel of a back 4 with a defensive mid dropping in to double-team, although of course that isn't what has happened. Similarly, if the wingback gets caught up-field on the attack and the opposition try to counter in behind him, the three defenders offer the option of a temporary fullback while still maintaining strength in the middle:



Unsurprisingly, I would like to see Rodgers try that 3-4-1-2 in the pre-season to see if we could make more of it - it could be a handy attacking weapon to have in order to get all three of Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho on the field without sacrificing anything in defensive shape. At the very least, it will be a formation that Coutinho, Lucas and Suarez will be used to. If, for whatever reason, we get a Dutch centre-back in too, then we will have more than enough experience on the field to make the best of it. 
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 12:04:43 am »
Well made points.

I just thought those overlaps were awful and typical of a CB in a back 5 not knowing he needs to become a full back in that situation.  Shifting from a back 5 to a back 4 in play is the simplest solution.  We just didn't do it, hence my rant  :D

Same point I just made lol. Great minds :D
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:52 am »
Some great contributions so far, thanks all.  Here's my brief tuppence worth...

I didn't like the system in the first half and was delighted with the change at half time.

Here's the thing.  A 3-5-2, or whatever numerical code you want to give it, has a significant limitation in wide areas.  Essentially you only have one player on the wings in attack and defence.  Before we conceded, Fulham had two overlaps down their right wing, where it took them an eternity to set up the pass, yet we allowed them to work the two on one situation.  Seriously, it was embarrassingly poor defending.  This also happened to release the man who set up their goal.  I know there'll be 'teething problems' embedding new systems, but that was basic level errors through not reading the game.

In attack, Sturridge was providing an outlet in wide areas, but was extremely isolated.  I don't recall us getting our wingbacks into the game and we looked pretty toothless.

A better use of a 3 man defence, for me, would be to play it with our normal front line shape.  More of a 3-4-3 if you like.  This would allow us the option of having one of the three CBs to step forward to return us to the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 providing a quite subtle but aggressive shift in balance.  We do need a particular type of player for that though, in the Franz Beckenbauer mould.  Interestingly, there do seem to be a fair few young players who have the physical/technical attributes to do this job (David Luiz?), the bit that's harder to guage is the mental/tactical characteristics needed.

The highlight for me was Coutinho, my new favourite player.  I make a point normally of staying away from over-hyping players, but I can't help myself in this boy's case.  I have a particular professional interest in perceptual skills, decision making and motor control etc (maybe there's a 'Systems' article expanding on this in the future?).  People talk about 'vision' a lot, but the physical side of 'being able to see' isn't the important part, the key is the ability of the human brain to decode this information quickly, accurately and utilise it to make effective decisions (normally so quickly it can't be a conscious act).  This boy has this skill set in abundance and has the technical skill to use it.  What a player he could be.  I actually think Borini will be a bit of a revelation playing with him, as his movement is excellent and Coutinho can find him.
Banged a few great points on the spot, Prof!

Inexperienced defenders like Wisdom was having a hard time and didn't look like he understood where he's supposed to be positionally. So often he was caught out.

Given space, Coutinho will tear up defences at will and you could be right about Borini being a benefactor of his silky skills and hawk vision. I'm sure teams will "double team" him and that's when we need someone else who could unlock defences. The big question mark is how much would Gerrard contribute next season. Will he have a reduced play time to prolong his career?

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 12:58:36 am »
Banged a few great points on the spot, Prof!

Inexperienced defenders like Wisdom was having a hard time and didn't look like he understood where he's supposed to be positionally. So often he was caught out.

Given space, Coutinho will tear up defences at will and you could be right about Borini being a benefactor of his silky skills and hawk vision. I'm sure teams will "double team" him and that's when we need someone else who could unlock defences. The big question mark is how much would Gerrard contribute next season. Will he have a reduced play time to prolong his career?

Think of it this way though. If Coutinho is double teamed, it means they're a man light somewhere else. That's the value of having more than a few attacking threats, and playing an attacking game. If they double-mark Coutinho, Suarez gets more space. If they also double mark Suarez, that's 4 men for two players, Sturridge with space, leaving 6 players to handle 8 potential attackers.

That is largely one of the secrets of United and Mourinho and Wenger's best teams.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 01:14:30 am »
 Suarez looks better in a free role, Sturridge on the shoulder and Coutinho needs whatever space we can find him none of them really provide anything defensively  which suggest we'll need some excellent defensive play which we dont have

I suspect playing Countinho behind a front two will just encourage the opposition to sit on him and close him out of the game, the lads going to be kicked all over the shop next year
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2013, 01:52:02 am »
I think Suarez and Coutinho do a good job harassing but defensive discipline is most definitely no their strong suits. I wonder an asymetrical 4-2-3-1 might not be a happy medium between where we get our best players on the feild. Coutinho can still play that free role, Henderson his 1.5 sudo wide role. While Suarez as a wide forward can virtually play as a striker.  Lucas can even occasionally drop in between the CB's. Too me at least this is comfortably our best lineup. It's a happy medium between having width (from fullbacks, Suarez and Hendo), midfield support (Henderson) and our best attackers on the pitch (Suarez, Coutinho, Sturridge).

« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:57:06 am by DanA »
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2013, 01:54:22 am »
I read an interesting set of stats today on Coutinho and it got me wondering how much has Rodgers coaching directly contributed to Coutinho's sudden improvement relative to his form at Inter Milan. Half of it may be the opportunity but at Inter Coutinho average 4.4 successful dribbles a game where as at Liverpool he's now averaging 1.3 per game. That's a stark contract and I wonder is it a statistical anomaly born from the small sample size of games or is this Rodgers making an adjustment?

My gut feeling is Rodgers consciously adjusted Coutinho's game, pressing upon him the philosophy of pass and move with few touches. Something POP pointed out is a familiar concept for a Brazilian but with a twist. Rodgers I think has told Coutinho to be more selective in beating a man kill and dribbling and instead to look to beat a man with his passing. To me at least it's the emphasis on passing that's had a profound effect on Coutinho's game. Then again it could just be a statistical anomaly where Coutinho just need the opportunity to shine.  How do you guys see it?

 


Just a thought it might be worth looking at his few month spell at Espanyol under Pochettino where the change maybe have begun.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2013, 02:00:17 am »

Just a thought it might be worth looking at his few month spell at Espanyol under Pochettino where the change maybe have begun.

I'm not sure how to get stats for that. I have seen the highlights and it seemed like he was played in a no.10 role but it appears he was doing a lot more dribbling and dwelling on the ball. Really though I can't tell shit from clay watching youtube highlights. Would be interesting though.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2013, 02:14:06 am »
I think Suarez and Coutinho do a good job harassing but defensive discipline is most definitely no their strong suits. I wonder an asymetrical 4-2-3-1 might not be a happy medium between where we get our best players on the feild. Coutinho can still play that free role, Henderson his 1.5 sudo wide role. While Suarez as a wide forward can virtually play as a striker.  Lucas can even occasionally drop in between the CB's. Too me at least this is comfortably our best lineup. It's a happy medium between having width (from fullbacks, Suarez and Hendo), midfield support (Henderson) and our best attackers on the pitch (Suarez, Coutinho, Sturridge).

I like the look of that, but defensively it would almost morph into a 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1 hybrid if Suarez drops. I think to get the most benefit out of Sturridge, if Suarez is on the field, then Suarez has to have a defined position/area of play. If he floats, he ends up running into a lot of spaces that Sturridge likes to play in. If he is given a defined zone, though, it means Coutinho can find both players without worrying about them duplicating each other's runs. Another consideration is if we go for another goalscoring attacker. If they play (let's just say Ince for argument's sake), then with Coutinho playmaking and Sturridge playing the depth, Suarez would even further have to be given a defined role because he could end up disrupting the preferred movements of three attackers in total (as he plays in all three spaces). So hopefully that is something that is worked on in preseason. If we've learned anything in Suarez' absence so far, it's that Coutinho will find you with the ball if you play a disciplined game. If you're a bit of a loose cannon, which Suarez can be, then it might end up negating the positives of having a Coutinho in the middle of the field.
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 02:24:12 am »
Suarez looks better in a free role, Sturridge on the shoulder and Coutinho needs whatever space we can find him none of them really provide anything defensively  which suggest we'll need some excellent defensive play which we dont have

I suspect playing Countinho behind a front two will just encourage the opposition to sit on him and close him out of the game, the lads going to be kicked all over the shop next year


This is exactly the reason most Serie A sides stopped playing 4-3-1-2, which they did at the back end of the 90s and early noughties. As soon as the "Makelele" player became vogue (IE just a centerback in midfield) they started absolutely dominating these players out of the game.

The lad is 20, and whilst brilliant, as PoP points out, still can go through games with minimal, albeit effective, touches. Should we really stick him in a role whereby if he doesn't play, we don't get Suarez and Sturridge in to the game?

Some great contributions so far, thanks all.  Here's my brief tuppence worth...

I didn't like the system in the first half and was delighted with the change at half time.

Here's the thing.  A 3-5-2, or whatever numerical code you want to give it, has a significant limitation in wide areas.  Essentially you only have one player on the wings in attack and defence.  Before we conceded, Fulham had two overlaps down their right wing, where it took them an eternity to set up the pass, yet we allowed them to work the two on one situation.  Seriously, it was embarrassingly poor defending.  This also happened to release the man who set up their goal.  I know there'll be 'teething problems' embedding new systems, but that was basic level errors through not reading the game.

In attack, Sturridge was providing an outlet in wide areas, but was extremely isolated.  I don't recall us getting our wingbacks into the game and we looked pretty toothless.

A better use of a 3 man defence, for me, would be to play it with our normal front line shape.  More of a 3-4-3 if you like.  This would allow us the option of having one of the three CBs to step forward to return us to the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 providing a quite subtle but aggressive shift in balance.  We do need a particular type of player for that though, in the Franz Beckenbauer mould.  Interestingly, there do seem to be a fair few young players who have the physical/technical attributes to do this job (David Luiz?), the bit that's harder to guage is the mental/tactical characteristics needed.

Isn't part of the problem also that we can't do the same in reverse situations? I'm trying to think of teams who have successfully played with 3 at the back over the last ten years, and the teams I can think of that have done it have all kept their width further up the pitch. The last team I can remember, regularly, playing 3-5-2, or a variant on that, successfully was Roma. They were the only teams that had wingbacks with no wingers ahead of them. IIRC correctly, Germany were doing similar on the international stage at the time, in the qualifying for the 2002 World Cup.

All the teams that have played 3 at the back I can think of since - Bielsa's Chile, Co Adrianse's Porto, Mariano's Udinese - had wingers/wide forwards who would perform the function of a wide player in a 4 at the back formation anyways. Heck, I think people often forget that Rafa Benitez, for a period of about 2 months in the 2006-07 season became a massive fan of 3-4-3 in away games. Before we went away to Wigan we hadn't won away from home all year (and I don't think we'd scored). Over the next two months we played 3-4-3 in most away games and I think only lost against Blackburn on boxing day. ... Rafa then chose to try it at home in the derby and it turned out to be a shit game. Don't think he went back to it after that.

But yeah... Total tangent there. Basically though, doesn't any sort of system with wing backs but no 'wide forwards' ahead of them basically lead to overloads down the flanks? Given that teams in this country are fairly big on using the wide areas (even if it's just to work space for a cross), that seems like playing into their hands somewhat?
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2013, 03:11:39 am »
I like the look of that, but defensively it would almost morph into a 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1 hybrid if Suarez drops. I think to get the most benefit out of Sturridge, if Suarez is on the field, then Suarez has to have a defined position/area of play. If he floats, he ends up running into a lot of spaces that Sturridge likes to play in. If he is given a defined zone, though, it means Coutinho can find both players without worrying about them duplicating each other's runs. Another consideration is if we go for another goalscoring attacker. If they play (let's just say Ince for argument's sake), then with Coutinho playmaking and Sturridge playing the depth, Suarez would even further have to be given a defined role because he could end up disrupting the preferred movements of three attackers in total (as he plays in all three spaces). So hopefully that is something that is worked on in preseason. If we've learned anything in Suarez' absence so far, it's that Coutinho will find you with the ball if you play a disciplined game. If you're a bit of a loose cannon, which Suarez can be, then it might end up negating the positives of having a Coutinho in the middle of the field.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, certainly I can see how that might happen with Suarez, you'd hope Rodgers could get Suarez to play that disciplined role with all of summer and the first half dozen games to work on it, i'd like to think Suarez was capable of that. It'd be interesting to know how it worked with Suarez and Huntelaar at Ajax. Did he have a free role or was he required to reign it in as you suggest needs to happen here with the players we have.
 
With the Ince concept, do you mean an extra attacker in place of Henderson? I'd be a bit worried about that morphing into the crazy 4-2-4 formation we played against Southampton, I'd hope we steered well clear of that. Or do you mean Ince in Suarez's position on the right? that being the case doesn't that alleviate the need for Suarez to play a positionally disciplined role? I'd assume he'd be playing a role then in place of either Coutinho or Sturridge.

Looking at the formation I've outline. For me the biggest worries would be:

1. Short of goal scoring option on the bench. Borini, Sterling  and Downing would be our three best attackers on the bench which is decent, but none are going to have the impact Walcott or Hernandez have.

2. Skrtel being uncomfortable. Skrtel didn't seem to like pushing out into the fullback area this season when Johnson was roaming up the pitch and he looked susceptible to balls over the top when we held a high line. This is where someone a bit quicker and experience at RB would be ideal. Perhaps that's Kelly or Wisdom but it seems a risk to me to rely on a teenager and a guy coming off a knee reco. The links with Alderweireld and Micah Richards would make sense.

3. Allen playing Lucas's role. IMO he's ill suited to dropping back and playing as an extra CB. Someone who does what Phil Jones/Mascherano does would really benefit the squad.

4. Cover for Enrique. I hate pushing Johnson to the left.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 03:15:58 am by DanA »
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2013, 06:13:14 am »
The simple facts about us now is we have goals in us, they may come in gulps but we have them. It's often said scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in football and we have shown we have that.

At a bare minimum that's a great starting point to push on from next season. We all know the main issues we have and although we over debate them come back to the same things regularly. We need atleast a top centreback or two, some power in midfield and and quality from wide right. Do that and get the midfield and defence more in sync and we will prove and that will mean an attack on a European cup place
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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2013, 08:19:18 am »
On Shelvey, I think arguably his best performances have come when simply being asked to move the ball around.

I forget the opponents, but there have been a handful of games where he's sat deep in the midfield and just kept it incredibly simple. And he did it with a fair amount of aplomb.

The problem with that though is that Rodgers' whole 'you've got goals in you' and Shelvey's own interpretation of himself as a Roy of the Rovers attacking midfielder (he's admitted he doesnt like the defensive side of the game) has led him to believe that this is actually what he's best at.

Honestly, I dont think it is though.

Shelvey has so many moments of just plain panic on the ball. Not panic in the way that Carra does when you give it him under a bit of pressure, the sort of panic where he thinks 'right ive got the ball, now lets just do something boss with it'. He thinks that every single time he gets it. And it leads him to rush things, to make wrong decisions and ultimately to look a bit stupid.

When he's further away from the goal, and his remit is not to make the difference, simply to be there and make use of the ball, his play is so much more patient because of it. His passing comes to the fore.

It's surely a move that's going to happen for him isnt it? I mean, he's clearly not a no10. Shelvey's season has provided that evidence, if nothing else.

Of course whether he has the attitude to be able to play a more disciplined game in a deeper role remains to be seen. As does whether he's able to sort out his impetuous tackling.

I'd wager theres more chance of teaching him those things than there is to play a role where he's just not going to make the grade though.

Time will tell.

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2013, 02:19:03 pm »
Looking at the formation I've outline. For me the biggest worries would be:

1. Short of goal scoring option on the bench. Borini, Sterling  and Downing would be our three best attackers on the bench which is decent, but none are going to have the impact Walcott or Hernandez have.

2. Skrtel being uncomfortable. Skrtel didn't seem to like pushing out into the fullback area this season when Johnson was roaming up the pitch and he looked susceptible to balls over the top when we held a high line. This is where someone a bit quicker and experience at RB would be ideal. Perhaps that's Kelly or Wisdom but it seems a risk to me to rely on a teenager and a guy coming off a knee reco. The links with Alderweireld and Micah Richards would make sense.

3. Allen playing Lucas's role. IMO he's ill suited to dropping back and playing as an extra CB. Someone who does what Phil Jones/Mascherano does would really benefit the squad.

4. Cover for Enrique. I hate pushing Johnson to the left.

Like the formation you've sketched out - gets Suarez close to goal , gives Coutinho a minder - provides an option on who breaks forward from midfield -

Skrtel isn't that comfortable dragged wide - I think you are right we'd need a top class cb  more mobile and agile  - Wisdom and Kelly could both provide cover for the role but dropping them in there for a top 4 challenge would be daft

Gerrard would need to be disciplined given Suarez and Johnsons ability to go walk about - and he's all too likley to go marauding himself if we are struggling - Henderson is brilliant at covering the ground and buying a 2:1 elsewhere but i'm not sure he offers anything out wide which is where he'd find himself quite a bit - I guess Allen could cover either role -

still leaves a very obvious problem covering Lucas - the worry is BR may think thats Allen as well .....

the width comes from advancing the fullbacks and thats been a weakness especially on the counter - I actually prefer Johnson on the left to the right - he seems to defend much better there but we have been a left back short this season neither Robinson or Downing are good enough and using Johnson there to rest Enrique just wears out Johnson - Wisdom and Kelly will need games though and its safer them getting that Prem experience at right back - if Mcloughlin can get fit I'd like to see him push on next year and challenge for a squad spot - he looks genuinely talented and physically able to me and he'll be 19 by the end of September

 if we do bring in another left back I'm not sure what that does to 'developing our own'

Borini would be able to cover the Suarez role I guess although I'd actually like to see him start some games from the left - the combination of his movement and Coutinho's passing.......

 we do need another genuine on the shoulder no.9 if we want to challenge for the top 4 - 



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Offline The Woolster

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Re: Round Table - Fulham 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2013, 02:34:18 pm »
I'm not sure how to get stats for that. I have seen the highlights and it seemed like he was played in a no.10 role but it appears he was doing a lot more dribbling and dwelling on the ball. Really though I can't tell shit from clay watching youtube highlights. Would be interesting though.

You can get it from Who Scored, make sure you have it set to All Players rather than Minimum appearances, which I think is the default http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/206/Tournaments/4/Seasons/3004/Stages/5577/PlayerStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2011-2012

The 4.4 succesful dribbles per game you saw was for the Europa League, in Serie A he had 0.8 per game, but I guess he was mainly coming on as a sub. He had 1.6 succesful dribles per game at Espanyol, which was 16th most in the league.

Not sure if you can take much from those figures though