Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.

[Strawberry Fields]

So at 3 goals down we should have replaced Finnan by an attacking player instead of defensive Didi?

It is never a guarantee that putting an attacking player for a defensive one will get ye goals. Another one is putting Lucas on for StevieG against the mongrels last year. By your logic we should never have won that game.
There is a lot of thought that goes into the substitutions, stuff we have no idea about. Best leave it to the pros methinks.

Well, each game has to be seen as a different case.
Against Milan we didn't control midfield as much as we'd liked to and changed that with adding a midfielder.
Against Everton last year we needed a calm head and Lucas provided that.
Against Stoke/Fulham/Westham we had control of the game but lacked goals therefore we should've used all our attacking options in search of the winning goal.
Changing like for like might bring the wanted result, sometimes even if you don't change a thing you might still win but the likelihood of scoring against a team that's happy just to defend will be higher ,even a weird deflected goal, when having more bodies in attack. I think Wigan and Man City this season are the perfect examples. Too bad we only use that same philosophy when we look like losing games.

There are no guaranties in football but knowing we did absolutely everything, including launching all the "heavy" artillery we have, in order to win would've made this weekend a bit less frustrating.
I will say it again... when our manager comes out after a game like we had against Stoke and says: "we have to be pleased we have one more point" - then there's a problem.

Name one player on our bench with the ability to come in and unlock Stoke's defense.  Babel can on a good day, problem is he hasn't had one in a while, El Zhar might have added something but if they could outmuscle Babel I don't think El Zhar would have gotten any joy either.  Keane needs space to operate and Stoke simply clogged all the attacking channels.  We don't have any options so what can Rafa do?

You just named 32 million pounds worth of options. Comparing with United that's the price of one Berbatov (who assisted the winning goal against Stoke when coming off the bench for o'shea just a weekend before). Comparing with Stoke that's a lot of money.
Anyway, the point is that Rafa should either believe in the options he himself brought to this club or move them on.
If that means to add Keane and believe he can help bring the change and by doing that also helping his confidence then that's what should've been done.
Sure there's the possibility of it not working but at least we'll know we tried everything.
People think that football is like any other strategy game, well it isn't. In football you have to gamble on what you got.
If we don't do everything in our power in order to get the 3 points then what's the point? why even bother?

[The G in Gerrard]

Strawberry why do you have sack rafa above your pic?

[Strawberry Fields]

Strawberry why do you have sack rafa above your pic?

Because one of the mods thought it'll be funny.

[matthew45]

I don't agree. You could have put 11 strikers on for the last 15 minutes against Stoke and we still wouldn't have won. It wasn't the personnel, the whole team was just rubbish.

[Vinny1892]

I think the key point to all this is that we find it incredibly difficult to open-up a tight game. If this is done for us by the opposition scoring, we are a completely different proposition. Note how the vast majority of our stalemates are 0-0, mainly against vastly inferior sides.

[Z e u s]

0-0 Fulham (H) - Didn't play well enough to win and no urgency
0-0 West Ham (H) - Were really unlucky not to win
0-0 Stoke (H) -  Were really unlucky not to win. That early goal is allowed and its a different ball game
0-0 Aston Villa (A) - Terrible, no urgency and barely any shots on goal
0-0 Stoke (A) - Trying not to lose rather that win

To be honest one of Keane or Torres should have started against Stoke on Sat. Everyone knows it. United are winning against Wigan right now and expect them to win at Bolton. Already these draws are costing us and will continue to cost us.

Torres / Keane started at home against Stoke, we still drew.

Sure they probably should have played, but it doesn't mean the result would have changed.

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

Just a point apropos the relative attacking merit/intent/tactics of us and the mancs

Liverpool P21 W13 D7 L1 F35 A13 GD22 PTS46
Manchester United P20 W13 D5 L2 F33 A10 GD23 PTS44

So, with one game in had they have won the same amount of games, scored 2 less goals and conceded 3 less.  Hardly a massive difference that exposes the "flaws of our approach" i would suggest.

And in terms of difficulty of games, in the results thread it shows that in matches that we have both played they are only marginally ahead again.

A great post, it's all well and good saying united do this and united do that but they have hardly been amazing have they. They have Rooney injured and loads of games whilst we have played less games than them, have less injuries and Torres to come back.

I agree we have inferior players but we have scored more than them!

It is very very close. We will be top by Monday night.

[shanklyboy]

shanklyboy -

What you're saying are indeed facts but I think you're barking at the wrong tree.
I think the complaints towards Rafa are not the starting line-ups or the players having a shit game, it's more about him seeing we're not playing well and likely to end with another draw but not doing enough to change that during the game. We only seem to do that when we're behind and the other team is with a man less (Wigan, Man City).
If there's anything these games should've tought us (and Rafa) is that even if you played shit for most of the game you can still change that by adding (not replacing) more attacking options.
We haven't done that in the draws against the likes of Stoke.
When the difference between a draw and a loss is 1 point and the difference between a draw and a win is 2 points why should we be happy with a point? why are we only fighting for a win when we're losing and not when we're drawing?

There have been times when Rafa has made changes and they haven't made any difference. He's then criticised for not making the changes sooner, which morphs into why he played this or that player or this or that formation in the first place. The man can't do right for doing wrong.
Everyone is analysing even the smallest detail as justification for why we didn't win a certain game. It happens and any changes don't guarantee a thing.
We have played games with Torres,Gerrard, Keane, Alonso, Riera, Babel, Kuyt on the pitch and not won. So the logic goes out of the window.
It's down to doing the right things on the pitch, no matter who the personnel is. If that doesn't happen then we won't function as a team.

God knows what the reaction will be if we are struggling for goals and Torres doesn't start scoring hatricks every week. This place will go into meltdown. I can guarantee that it will all be down to Kuyt/Lucas/Rafa again....no matter what the underlying reason.
People are always looking to justify poor results and sometimes miss the glaringly obvious.
However if we carry on getting results then it takes the pressure off.

[shanklyboy]

shanklyboy, you fail to give the opposition any credit at all. We twatted Newcastle because they played like a pub team. They were all over the place. Stoke on the other hand played as a well organised narrow defensive unit, they knew exactly how to play against us - like most of the teams that have taken points off us this year. We are very easy to stifle, our own worst enemy I suppose

and that for me still remains out Achilles heel this season.

I agree about the performances of both Newcastle and Stoke defensively.
I would argue though that whenever we destroy a team even our own supporters will pipe up that they were shite.

If you are giving Stoke credit for their performance in stopping us playing, maybe you should look at what Liverpool did to Newcastle to make them look like a 'pub team'.

I think that if we had Man Utd's away record of 9 for and 6 against as opposed to 19 for and 7 against.......we would get absolutely slated for being negative and cautious.
Strange how it doesn't work the other way around.

Maybe there are other factors to be taken into account rather than the obvious.

[M.A.G.M]

Very good opening post Shanks, good discussion.

[watyeonaboot]

I agree about the performances of both Newcastle and Stoke defensively.
I would argue though that whenever we destroy a team even our own supporters will pipe up that they were shite.

If you are giving Stoke credit for their performance in stopping us playing, maybe you should look at what Liverpool did to Newcastle to make them look like a 'pub team'.

I think that if we had Man Utd's away record of 9 for and 6 against as opposed to 19 for and 7 against.......we would get absolutely slated for being negative and cautious.
Strange how it doesn't work the other way around.

Maybe there are other factors to be taken into account rather than the obvious.

I am reluctant to join the "media loves Man U and hates us" chip on shoulder popular opinion, but this is so true. United are grinding out results - they were by all accounts hanging on against Wigan last night - yet this is just seen as part of their procession to the title. When we do the same, it's a sign of Rafa's cautiousness.

Perhaps it's just that people need to stop reading so much of what the media says, switch off entirely from RAWK pre-and post-games, and just relax. If we went for it against Stoke, they hit us on the break and won, how much worse would the moaning on here have been?

The less people stop worrying and just respect that this IS the hardest league in the world, we would walk Serie A or La Liga in comparison, the teams here have lots of money and are much harder to beat, and as a result of said money the modern fan is a whopper who expects a success perpetuity in return.

Just accept that United will be top at the weekend, and if the fans raise the roof at Anfield, they will power to victory against a very handy Everton side on Monday. Too much negativity and not enough support.

[Yorkykopite]

The opening post is superb. Persuasive logic and admirable restraint. 

The four home draws, in particular, are hard to defend. All against teams we should be beating, none of whom we really threw the kitchen sink at. Sure, we didn't lose. But.....eight dropped points out of twelve? On paper it reads 4 draws out of 4. But it might as well be 1 win, 1 draw and 2 defeats.

[shanklyboy]

I am reluctant to join the "media loves Man U and hates us" chip on shoulder popular opinion, but this is so true.

It's not just the media though mate...our own fans can be just as bad..if not worse at times.

If we have so many negatives and Man Utd so many positives......where the fuck have Man Utd been all season because they've been nowhere near us.

[the_red_pill]

Top post, Shanks1965- very interesting, but...

I don't think that with the players we have, we can win the league with an attacking attitude. We lack the skill- even more so than the 'smaller' teams. We lack the pace and we lack the creativity/intelligence of the top teams- we're not on par- YET. to be honest, I see us as a top-6 candidate. We have progressed, but only so far as to get us out of a midtable team into a top-6/top-5 team. It's staggering to think that under Hou, we managed to stay within the top-4(IMO, we should've been perrennial Tottenhams); but its because of this exact defensive attitude- of which Houllier was one of the best- that we managed to. The other teams, of course have also improved.

I have always felt that the reason why we're playing the way we do, is because of our personnel. Let Ferguson/Wenger run LFC for a few seasons, with the exact same players and I firmly believe, we'll end up somewhere between 7th and 5th. With Ferguson, we might even get relegated . However, I'm certain Rafa could take the likes of the current Wigan to Champions League glory- a semi-final showdown, after having finished 3rd/4th the previous season, playing defensive footy.

Lots of teams- and their managers- do exactly what your saying and that's when better sides get them. We actually DO score against tough defenses more than the 'smaller' teams, but we lack the personnel with the magnificent(I feel dirty now) attributes of our rivals- Chelsea, L'Arse, United to go out and attack. I do believe however, that we will get their in a few seasons- and might even sooner when we win the league, pressure's less, team have proven themselves and can rightly play how they 'feel' like playing etc...

OTH... If you meant to say that we could carry on like this, but mix it in with a little more attacking footy, I'd agree to an extent. We'd prolly have a marginally better points tally- who knows?

[Caffeine]

Agree totally with the OP, look at a selection of our draws:

Stoke (x2), West Ham, Fulham, Hull - if we had gambled in each of these games and thrown an extra forward on, put Hyypia upfront for the last 10-15 like United do with Vidic, etc, and if conceivably this paid off twice, once nothing happened, and twice we conceded - we would still have got 7 points out of these games instead of 5.

Rafa's approach is incredibly cautious and I do believe this could be our downfall.

As a sidenote, yes this is our best chance to win it in 19 years, but it could also be a superb learning curve if we don't pull it off. I know it's too early to talk about 'next season', but if this is our best chance to win it since the last time we did, surely with the benefit of hindsight and a title race under our belts we will be even better equipped next term?

[RedBoywonder]

Totally agree with the initial post by Shanks 65, its about time we took the game to these teams instead of worrying about them lets give them something to worry about.

[MagicB8all]

Top post, Shanks1965- very interesting, but...

I don't think that with the players we have, we can win the league with an attacking attitude. We lack the skill- even more so than the 'smaller' teams. We lack the pace and we lack the creativity/intelligence of the top teams- we're not on par- YET. to be honest, I see us as a top-6 candidate. We have progressed, but only so far as to get us out of a midtable team into a top-6/top-5 team. It's staggering to think that under Hou, we managed to stay within the top-4(IMO, we should've been perrennial Tottenhams); but its because of this exact defensive attitude- of which Houllier was one of the best- that we managed to. The other teams, of course have also improved.

I have always felt that the reason why we're playing the way we do, is because of our personnel. Let Ferguson/Wenger run LFC for a few seasons, with the exact same players and I firmly believe, we'll end up somewhere between 7th and 5th. With Ferguson, we might even get relegated . However, I'm certain Rafa could take the likes of the current Wigan to Champions League glory- a semi-final showdown, after having finished 3rd/4th the previous season, playing defensive footy.

Lots of teams- and their managers- do exactly what your saying and that's when better sides get them. We actually DO score against tough defenses more than the 'smaller' teams, but we lack the personnel with the magnificent(I feel dirty now) attributes of our rivals- Chelsea, L'Arse, United to go out and attack. I do believe however, that we will get their in a few seasons- and might even sooner when we win the league, pressure's less, team have proven themselves and can rightly play how they 'feel' like playing etc...

OTH... If you meant to say that we could carry on like this, but mix it in with a little more attacking footy, I'd agree to an extent. We'd prolly have a marginally better points tally- who knows?

I think Rafa's philosophy is to force a team into mistakes - that works against the better teams that come to attack and against the really poor teams - but that leaves a gap for the teams that come only to defend and have been drilled in defense. Against those teams we need to attack  or  force mistakes more aggressively ( another word for attack)  where we've been lacking is we've left this too late and have no real plan for attacking packed defenses.
Both Torres and Babel needs space to run into - we need a player who's best when up against a tight defense be that striker or winger

[Snoopy29]

exactly, minor teams like fulham, stoke, and all, we can't even beat... babel is hardly a threat, which is annoying, keane is looking good, but not being used, which is weird...Torres keeps getting injured like fuck, and Kuyt is still there in the team, wtf..

[Byrneand]

Great post lads.

I agree with people's comments that Rafa's system is too rigid. His substitutions (on the whole) come too late for me and at times do not attacking guille when we need it. I'm struggling to think of a time this year when a substitute has come on and changed the game. I'm not saying this hasn't happened.... so don't berate me. I just can't think of one of the top of my head.

With that in mind, it makes me think what's the point of having Babel, Benayaun and Pennant on the bench?

It's fair to say that Pennant is moving on but why wasn't this done earlier to a.) Save on wages and b.) actually recoup something? Babel.... one for the future... great potential... look what he did against Arsenal....
But the bottom line is he's done nothing this season, and Rafa doesn't look like he's going to use him much.

El zhar has and can continue to do Pennant's role and I think it's time we should look to draw a line under Babel and cash in on his "potential"

If you look at our players we have our defense is roughly good enough (centrally in the top 3 so no complaints there), defensive midfielders... tick, best in the business....  strikers; well Nando's in anyone's top 5 and I reckon Keane's not really had the service/support (although I'm not blindly saying he's not missed sitters my 89 year old gran could slot home). What really strikes me is that apart from Gerrard we have no one who can consistently break teams down.

If we recouped cash for the likes of Babel or Pennant  rather than letting it drip away we could actually buy some half decent attacking players. I daren't say it, but even in some game's it could be worth sacrificing some of Dirk's work ethic depending on the opposition set-up for a player - who we blatently don't have who can do what Yossi does but with more authority. Whilst it is important to win the ball high up the field and Dirk obviuosly helps with this, asking masch or alonso to push up and press.

A great post, it's all well and good saying united do this and united do that but they have hardly been amazing have they.

I think the point people have been trying to make is that over the last 15 years they've won one or two trophies and one of the themes underpinning that success has been that when it gets to the last 15 minutes of a game they throw bodies forward and at times sacrifice a defender for an extra attacker.

Does anyone know the ratio of win/loss or draw for Utd when they have sacrificed a defender for an attacker?

Basically more wins please Mr Benitez..... you seem to know a thing or two about being successful so do us proud please.

[the_red_pill]

I think Rafa's philosophy is to force a team into mistakes - that works against the better teams that come to attack and against the really poor teams - but that leaves a gap for the teams that come only to defend and have been drilled in defense. Against those teams we need to attack  or  force mistakes more aggressively ( another word for attack)  where we've been lacking is we've left this too late and have no real plan for attacking packed defenses.
Both Torres and Babel needs space to run into - we need a player who's best when up against a tight defense be that striker or winger

See what you're saying- and I see now that it's what the OP meant(title could've fooled me)- we stick to our approach, just mix it in with attack when- and only when- an all-out attack is needed.

However, we must take into account that what defensive teams are just waiting for are exactly that. It might not be as wise. I do however, get frustrated loads of times as I'm certain we all do, but I cannot even argue a case for attack.

[kopite87]

The only game recently where we have looked anything like a positive, attacking aide was against Newcastle away.....and look wot happened there. Not only did we absolutly batter them, it shud of been more and it woz the most entertained I've been watchin us for well ages probably since the arsenal game last season in the champs leauge. Don't get me wrong I know Newcastle are wank, but if Rafa sets the team up like that to play everyone, with the players we now have I think we'd destroy most teams. Never mind not scoring a goal in 180 minutes of football against FUCKING STOKE!!!

[liverbnz]

We are top but we know that we are there (basically on the same points as we had last season) partly because United and Chelsea have not scored as many points as they normally would at this stage.

Good overall post, liked reading it very much. Just this part I have picked out and I have heard this batted about a lot these last few days. I think the useless commentator that Setanta had  started this but it isn't true. We are 7 points better of than we were after 22 games last year.

[liverbnz]

The only game recently where we have looked anything like a positive, attacking aide was against Newcastle away.....and look wot happened there. Not only did we absolutly batter them, it should of been more and it woz the most entertained I've been watchin us for well ages probably since the arsenal game last season in the champs leauge. Don't get me wrong I know Newcastle are wank, but if Rafa sets the team up like that to play everyone, with the players we now have I think we'd destroy most teams. Never mind not scoring a goal in 180 minutes of football against FUCKING STOKE!!!

The teams at Stoke and at Newcastle were set-up exactly the same only with a few changes in personnel. Mash/Reira/Skrtel/Aurelio for Insua/Agger/Babel/Alonso.
They are all like for like changes with 3 of them being enforced. Newcastle didn't press us in anyway whatsoever and never got tight on Gerrard, whilst Stoke, hurried, hassled and stuck to are players like limpets. They also pushed us further up the pitch. That was the difference, nothing to do with how we were set-up.

[Guz-kop]

Stoke away was the only game we've drawn where I think we've been scared to lose and not risked it. The other draws I think we were generally just fucking gash with the Hull game an exception becauase we could've won that by a handful. We didn't create chances for 90 minutes and defended poorly but we created more than enough good, proper chances and not just corners and pot shots from outside the box.

We didn't look any more or any less attacking at Newcastle. The first 10 minutes or so were quite tit for tat and we didn't look that penetrative with the ball. Newcastle were so shit however that we continued to have the ball and found more and more space. We weren't piling 6 or 7 bodies at every attack, for example. I thought the same pattern would happen at Stoke but for some reason we froze about 25minutes in and stopped playing. I don't believe Rafa's system is too rigid, it's anything but IMO and sometimes in the past we've criticised it for being too fluid and players ending up in positions which are not necsarilly their best. But I expected us to change it against stoke but didn't. I dont think there has been that lack of ambition (if you can call it that) in other games we've drawn, I just think some people over estimate the ability (skill wise - and that is what you need against tight defences) of our squad. We still lack consistent penetration down the right wing however well Kuyt has done this season. Left wing is the best it's been for years but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Our left back situation is a bit of a shambles really. Combine Insua, Aurelio and Dossena and we may have a quality LB in there somewhere but at the moment due to a combination of inexperience, injuries and poor quality it's all over the place. Alonso has been superb this season but will very rarely get beyond the ball and that was a major problem from Lucas and our other attacking players against Stoke. What I'm saying is we're still a work in progress and while we seem to have gained that mentality to get points against the other top teams we're still lacking guile against packed defences and that's down to quality rather than how much we're prepared to go for it. IMO.

I'm struggling to think of a time this year when a substitute has come on and changed the game. I'm not saying this hasn't happened.... so don't berate me. I just can't think of one of the top of my head.

There have been a few but the most prominent for me was Dossena at Man City. Unsung hero that day, gave us great width on the left, put a couple of great balls in and a prime example that it doesn't always have to be attacking players that change games and that attacking quality from full back is absolutely vital.

We are top but we know that we are there (basically on the same points as we had last season) partly because United and Chelsea have not scored as many points as they normally would at this stage.

And that is very much due to the fact that we have taken 3 points off each of them.

Forget what happens in the past. This bollocks that somehow Valencia only won the league because Real and Barca weren't as good as previous years or that we're top only becuase the three others aren't as good is rubbish. Throw the idea away and forget about it. We have enough fucking problems in our own squad, we're still a work in progress, we still have issues to deal with yet we are top ON MERIT ALONE. We havent been good enough to take full advantage of them this year and the same goes for them.

[MagicB8all]

See what you're saying- and I see now that it's what the OP meant(title could've fooled me)- we stick to our approach, just mix it in with attack when- and only when- an all-out attack is needed.

However, we must take into account that what defensive teams are just waiting for are exactly that. It might not be as wise. I do however, get frustrated loads of times as I'm certain we all do, but I cannot even argue a case for attack.

you can see why Rafa plays it tight. Defensive teams USED to get a win by sucking us into attack and then getting one on the counter - We've improved there but we still lack a plan for breaking down the packed defense of a team drilled in defense. 
I would suggest the player that can do that is someone who can run with the ball, dribble and shoot - I would say an upgrade on a Bennyoun - but we don't really have such a player  the best we have is Keane and maybe Nemeth.
The other thing is when against a packed defense we need these skilled players to do their thing in the opposition penalty area, ie we need to push up and for that we need to drop a DM player and replace him with either a box to box or more attacking MF player - this of course means ..... we need Agger in defense so the whole midfield can move 10metres further upfield.
So I guess I'm saying against defensive teams we need Xabi and Agger they must play
( We must get Agger  and Xabi to sign new contracts)

[nocturnalvin]

We bought Keane for 20m quids... stuck with him when he continously failed to score, and in typical Rafa fashion, dropped him back to the bench once he starts to find his form.

We bought Keane for exactly the sort of situation we faced at Stoke, and when the situation warranted it, he kept his arse warm on the bench.

Nothing personal....just something i do not understand.

[the_red_pill]

The only game recently where we have looked anything like a positive, attacking aide was against Newcastle away.....and look wot happened there. Not only did we absolutly batter them, it should of been more and it woz the most entertained I've been watchin us for well ages probably since the arsenal game last season in the champs leauge. Don't get me wrong I know Newcastle are wank, but if Rafa sets the team up like that to play everyone, with the players we now have I think we'd destroy most teams. Never mind not scoring a goal in 180 minutes of football against FUCKING STOKE!!!

Bolton and Newcastle- both of which we played well in, were overseen by Sammy. Rafa made the final decisions but Sammy were on the training pitch every day since Rafa left.

Meant nothing sinister. I'm just saying.

[Fordy]

Stoke away was the only game we've drawn where I think we've been scared to lose and not ri

Didnt you watch the Villa match then?

[Caffeine]

The teams at Stoke and at Newcastle were set-up exactly the same only with a few changes in personnel. Mash/Riera/Skrtel/Aurelio for Insua/Agger/Babel/Alonso.
They are all like for like changes with 3 of them being enforced. Newcastle didn't press us in anyway whatsoever and never got tight on Gerrard, whilst Stoke, hurried, hassled and stuck to are players like limpets. They also pushed us further up the pitch. That was the difference, nothing to do with how we were set-up.

Stoke also have the 5th best home record in the league or something- for that very reason.

[STORMTROOPER]

just does my nut in that man utd are only one league title away from making it 18-18.

we have a great chance this year because man utd, chelsea, and arsenal have fallen below there usual standard and haven't played well at all.   

the thing is, you know that man utd will come on strong in the 2nd half of this season because they always do.  they also have a great habbit of gettin these 1-0 wins when they are without ronaldo, ferdinand, evra etc.   i feel its only a matter of time now before man utd hit top gear and start caning teams.

i worry that we are too negative and rafa's obsession with 'controlling' games (particularly in midfield) actually inhibits our attacking play and we become a bit too rigid to create against negative teams.

i also get frustrated by the lack of movement in the following type of line up

                                                            kuyt

                            riera                          gerrard                       benayoun
                         
                                                        lucas     masch

against a negative team, that selction has such poor off the ball movement, especially if gerrard plays in 2nd gear like against stoke.

i like riera. 
benayoun does not have the pace/movement to get in behind teams.  he plays in front of the opposition and his too lightweight.  he is suited to coming on as a sub when legs are tired.
kuyt as a lone striker is just awful to watch.  no pace, no threat, when was the last time kuyt scored a goal as lone striker - he's just too easy to play against in that role.
lucas / masch offer no real movement from midfield so everything gets static bar gerrards runs.
i feel we are easy to control by a team with negative tactics (that means stoke not newcastle) when using this selection.



you look at the following selection and you see how difficult it would be for the opposition to control our off the ball movement.


                                                                      torres

                        riera                                  keane                           babel

                                               masch                            gerrard

look at the mobility of those players, theres a threat from everywhere. 
there's gerrard, keane, torres, babel with great pace.
theres gerrard, keane, torres with intelligent movement
theres riera, babel, keane, gerrard, and torres all capable of beating men and drawing another defender towards them.
there are players who are capable of interchanging around the system making us much less rigid.


i know i've gone off on a tangent with this post and that we have been without torres for most of the season but i do feel its time for us to take the hand break off and really have a go at these negative teams rather than being so predictable.   i feel we have the players to make a better fist of it in these games than what we have been doing.

[the_red_pill]

I just want to add an observation: It seems that Ferguson's comments were followed by a certain chain of events:

• Rafa retorts
• We're shocked(positively shocked, negatively shocked)
• Somehow we draw, United win big
• The pressure builds... we now really start to realise the significance of their 2 games in hand
• The pressure on the fans now begins to really take off and we start to grapple with what he actually meant
• We increasingly start to question our team and manager's tactics, arguing whether we "have the bottle"(Ferguson's words) to see this through, while all the while the team keeps informing us that they know exactly what to do and are ready- to calm us down
• We don't realise it has only been 1 game since we've last drawn, but pressure-levels have definitely risen since without real cause for concern
• We will take that out at the next game against the team- Fletcher's comments the other day now takes on even more significance

If there is any team whose fortunes are linked intimately with it's supporters' reactions/mood, its Liverpool. I just think we should not put too much pressure on the team and manager. I don't know if it was the intention, but Whisky breath's comments can surely damage our campaign. Maybe I'm paranoid(no, the sig was for something else and a low blow) and I've been conned already without realising it, but I'm just saying...

[Guz-kop]

I just want to add an observation: It seems that Ferguson's comments were followed by a certain chain of events:

• Rafa retorts
• We're shocked(positively shocked, negatively shocked)
• Somehow we draw, United win big
• The pressure builds... we now really start to realise the significance of their 2 games in hand
• The pressure on the fans now begins to really take off and we start to grapple with what he actually meant
• We increasingly start to question our team and manager's tactics, arguing whether we "have the bottle"(Ferguson's words) to see this through, while all the while the team keeps informing us that they know exactly what to do and are ready- to calm us down
• We don't realise it has only been 1 game since we've last drawn, but pressure-levels have definitely risen since without real cause for concern
• We will take that out at the next game against the team- Fletcher's comments the other day now takes on even more significance

If there is any team whose fortunes are linked intimately with it's supporters' reactions/mood, its Liverpool. I just think we should not put too much pressure on the team and manager. I don't know if it was the intention, but Whisky breath's comments can surely damage our campaign. Maybe I'm paranoid(not, the sig was for something else and a low blow) and I've been conned already without realising it, but I'm just saying...

That nervousness has been throughout the club since the start of the season. Nothing new with Ferguson's comments. I've no doubt he and most neutrals probably believe the same to be honest. We have shat ourselves everytime we've drawn a game, if we're in the same position come April and there are some tight games we'll be shitting bricks. Hopefully that will transform into positive energy for the team though

[the_red_pill]

you can see why Rafa plays it tight. Defensive teams USED to get a win by sucking us into attack and then getting one on the counter - We've improved there but we still lack a plan for breaking down the packed defense of a team drilled in defense. 
I would suggest the player that can do that is someone who can run with the ball, dribble and shoot - I would say an upgrade on a Bennyoun - but we don't really have such a player  the best we have is Keane and maybe Nemeth.
The other thing is when against a packed defense we need these skilled players to do their thing in the opposition penalty area, ie we need to push up and for that we need to drop a DM player and replace him with either a box to box or more attacking MF player - this of course means ..... we need Agger in defense so the whole midfield can move 10metres further upfield.
So I guess I'm saying against defensive teams we need Xabi and Agger they must play
( We must get Agger  and Xabi to sign new contracts)

Yeah I see your point. What does my head in was why during 2006-2007 we had suffered 1 loss and managed only 4 draws at home- and the same amount of draws away. Our home-form were worthy of envy from the best, but we also lost 7(?) away games. And we had the likes of Kromkamp, Craig Douglas Bellamy, Momo, Gonzales etc...

2005-2006 were even better- 3 draws at home and 1 loss- and we still had Cisse.

[fowler_is_god9]

I just want to add an observation: It seems that Ferguson's comments were followed by a certain chain of events:

• Rafa retorts
• We're shocked(positively shocked, negatively shocked)
• Somehow we draw, United win big
• The pressure builds... we now really start to realise the significance of their 2 games in hand
• The pressure on the fans now begins to really take off and we start to grapple with what he actually meant
• We increasingly start to question our team and manager's tactics, arguing whether we "have the bottle"(Ferguson's words) to see this through, while all the while the team keeps informing us that they know exactly what to do and are ready- to calm us down
• We don't realise it has only been 1 game since we've last drawn, but pressure-levels have definitely risen since without real cause for concern
• We will take that out at the next game against the team- Fletcher's comments the other day now takes on even more significance

If there is any team whose fortunes are linked intimately with it's supporters' reactions/mood, its Liverpool. I just think we should not put too much pressure on the team and manager. I don't know if it was the intention, but Whisky breath's comments can surely damage our campaign. Maybe I'm paranoid(not, the sig was for something else and a low blow) and I've been conned already without realising it, but I'm just saying...

People were questioning the managers tactics increasingly long before the press conference last week.  People were generally quite happy with Rafa having at go a Fergie.  It showed some passion and that he is not afraid of him.
Then he goes and puts Dirk Kuyt up front on his own and leaves him there for 60 mins without a chance being created.  Then brings Torres on and puts him up front on his own.  Nobody can agree with that.
We are supposed to be the most intelligent football fans in the country yet reading RAWK we look like yes men.

[watyeonaboot]

That nervousness has been throughout the club since the start of the season. Nothing new with Ferguson's comments. I've no doubt he and most neutrals probably believe the same to be honest. We have shat ourselves everytime we've drawn a game, if we're in the same position come April and there are some tight games we'll be shitting bricks. Hopefully that will transform into positive energy for the team though

It's not just us, mate, look at the slaughtering Scolari's getting, it's ridiculous.

The proper fans need to be heard amongst the deafening silence of the whoppers at games - even IF we draw against Everton on Monday.

[coffeehead]

Good overall post, liked reading it very much. Just this part I have picked out and I have heard this batted about a lot these last few days. I think the useless commentator that Setanta had  started this but it isn't true. We are 7 points better of than we were after 22 games last year.

That's correct but remember, 6 of those 7 points came from beating Man U and beating Chelsea at their place; ergo our higher points tally at this stage is PART of their dropped points. Though it pains us to say it those two games were ones they'd have been expected to get something from.

But otherwise, yes, Man U are due to be only one point worse off after 21 games than they were last year (47 rather than 48), while we're already 7 points ahead.

[MagicB8all]

That nervousness has been throughout the club since the start of the season. Nothing new with Ferguson's comments. I've no doubt he and most neutrals probably believe the same to be honest. We have shat ourselves everytime we've drawn a game, if we're in the same position come April and there are some tight games we'll be shitting bricks. Hopefully that will transform into positive energy for the team though

if the crowds nervous its because they lack belief - this will make its way to the players - think CL final in reverse

The fans are  going to be just as important as Rafa and the players in getting this title

[shanklyboy]

This obsession with the way Man Utd play is getting embarrassing. Nearly as embarrassing as some of the 'We should play like Arsenal and Chelsea' posts that seem to have disappeared for some reason.
I can remember The Mancs saying exactly the same thing for 20 odd years as they watched us pull further away from them and their obsession became greater and greater, which compounded every poor result and made each season the worst ever for them.
Only when Ferguson arrived and Busby had stepped away from the club did Man Utd begin to establish their own way of playing again.

Man Utd beat Stoke 1-0 away and were very fortunate.They scored in the 83rd minute which is fine, but they only had one other effort prior to that. So much for their flowing attacking football  that we should try to emulate eh?

At home, they beat them 5-0 and that's what has been the difference for them.
They also drew with Spurs 0-0, with efc 1-1 and with Newcastle at home 1-1 and we all know how brilliant they are.
Their away record is bordering on mid table form as they can't score.

Chelsea beat Stoke away and what good has that done them in their title challenge?They also drew 0-0 with Newcastle at home.

The day after Man Utd drew with efc, a team that we battered when we played them, we went to Chelsea and won. Negative, scared, lacking confidence?
The following week efc beat Fulham, which we couldn't do. Stoke beat Arsenal and we lost at Spurs, who Man Utd couldn't beat.
We beat Man Utd, and Chelsea who have both beaten Stoke, but Arsenal couldn't beat Stoke but beat Man Utd.

See the pattern.......no?
That's because there isn't one.

[the_red_pill]

if the crowds nervous its because they lack belief - this will make its way to the players - think CL final in reverse

The fans are  going to be just as important as Rafa and the players in getting this title

Yip, that's what it comes down to.

[Barnes & Beardsley]

Hold on mate - lest we forget the context, we've had a snowball's chance in hell of putting in a meaningful title challenge thus far under Rafa.

The o.p from Shanks1965 makes a very valid point, but let's not go too far the other way eh?

Disagree Roy. Rafa’s said recently that it has taken us more than he expected to get us to the stage we are. He said he was expecting 2-3 years and certainly by the fourth we should have been ready after working on defence for a year, then midfield and on attack.

Are you saying that after 3-4 years we never had enough time or money to assemble a team capable of beating the likes of Stoke, Birmingham, Reading, Fulham etc on a consistent basis? Did you accept that we were on the same level as many of the lower half teams and not good enough? For me those are the teams which enable you to put in a meaningful challenge in the first place. You bank those ‘easy points’ and then try to beat your rivals. Personally, I don’t think there should be any excuses why we have been dropping points from more than 12-13 games for the last two seasons. We are already on 8 this season. Ideally we want that to be around 10-11 games if we are serious about winning the league (more draws than losses obviously). Regardless of opposition we should be racking up a minimum of 25 wins. Yes we can’t win every game and there will be occasional slip-ups, but that is why we have ’10-11 lives’ so to speak.