Author Topic: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic  (Read 24735 times)

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« on: February 7, 2017, 09:42:00 am »
I can understand Jeremy telling Labour MPs to vote for the triggering of article 50 it was pointless to vote against it.

But this vote on the White paper is different for me, if Labour don't get some of their demands added to it they should vote against it.

Which ever way they vote they will take some political damage the media will make sure of that.

But the vote will be won anyway, and if they vote for a Tory Brexsit and it all goes tits up the Tories will just say well Labour also voted for it the same thing they did with the welfare cuts.

But if they vote against a Tory Brexsit and it goes tits up they can make political gain from it and use it as a club to beat them with.

And if the Tories get a good deal it won't matter which way they voted it will be all about the Tories.

I'm in agreement with a lot of this.

Too many people are trying to fight the referendum all over again instead of dealing with the result.

Trying to block A50 at this stage would achieve nothing and completely decimate the party.
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Offline SP

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #1 on: February 7, 2017, 09:54:51 am »
I'm in agreement with a lot of this.

Too many people are trying to fight the referendum all over again instead of dealing with the result.

Trying to block A50 at this stage would achieve nothing and completely decimate the party.

Labour would not be trying to block article 50, they would be using the only piece of leverage they have to prevent the complete triumph of the privatising austerity paramilitary wing of the Tory party. May's vision is not the only way to implement Brexit, and Labour is being complicit in not enforcing any checks on the Tories' hare-brain scheme. The referendum question was completely crap, and the country did not sign up for May's vision. She nominally campaigned for Remain. She has no mandate.

Labour not supporting May's invocation of article 50 without a coherent plan is not preventing Brexit, it is an attempt to try to do it properly, without catastrophic side effects.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2 on: February 7, 2017, 10:20:48 am »
Labour would not be trying to block article 50, they would be using the only piece of leverage they have to prevent the complete triumph of the privatising austerity paramilitary wing of the Tory party. May's vision is not the only way to implement Brexit, and Labour is being complicit in not enforcing any checks on the Tories' hare-brain scheme. The referendum question was completely crap, and the country did not sign up for May's vision. She nominally campaigned for Remain. She has no mandate.

Labour not supporting May's invocation of article 50 without a coherent plan is not preventing Brexit, it is an attempt to try to do it properly, without catastrophic side effects.

But there are some on here who are advocating that Labour attempt to block Article 50.

Unfortunately the binary nature of the referendum didn't really give a mandate to any detailed course of action other than to say we should leave the EU.

The rest of the intricacies of the process need to be determined by our Parliamentary system - even if that entails an unelected PM advocating a hard Brexit.

Corbyn has done the right thing here - the battles over hard vs soft, red vs blue brexit are coming down the line.

Incidentally, he is also in the perfect position to align himself against Trump and for the NHS which will be the fertile battlegrounds between now and the next election. If a centrist politician had been in charge he/she could do neither of these things for obvious reasons.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

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Offline SP

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3 on: February 7, 2017, 10:56:07 am »
Corbyn has done the right thing here - the battles over hard vs soft, red vs blue brexit are coming down the line.

He will be no part of the battle as he has pissed away all of his leverage by supporting article 50 unconditionally.

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4 on: February 7, 2017, 11:13:24 am »
No to purges. They are like breaking a dam.

Indeed. Hope she runs. And that this image is all over the Lib Dem campaign literature....




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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5 on: February 7, 2017, 11:23:14 am »
But there are some on here who are advocating that Labour attempt to block Article 50.

Unfortunately the binary nature of the referendum didn't really give a mandate to any detailed course of action other than to say we should leave the EU.

The rest of the intricacies of the process need to be determined by our Parliamentary system - even if that entails an unelected PM advocating a hard Brexit.

Corbyn has done the right thing here - the battles over hard vs soft, red vs blue brexit are coming down the line.

Labour are the Opposition. By definition it's their job to represent the minority view. The Government can push the mandated position (although exactly what the mandate is for is debatable).

Oh and as SP says, he's pissed away any position that Labour might have had by voting with the Tories and saying that he'll vote with them again regardless of Labours amendments being adopted.

All 4 amendments tabled today were not voted through today and won by the Government.

One was a Labour one asking for a bi monthly update on negotiations.
Latest rumours are that Labour are still looking to impose another 3-line whip for the final Commons Article 50 vote on Wednesday.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/828677513194921984

Why on earth would the Tories bother listening to Corbyn? Using your argument, they have a mandate and they're the Government. As Corbyn's going to vote with them anyway they'll do whatever they what.


Quote
Incidentally, he is also in the perfect position to align himself against Trump and for the NHS which will be the fertile battlegrounds between now and the next election. If a centrist politician had been in charge he/she could do neither of these things for obvious reasons.

What are those reasons? I must be a bit dense.
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6 on: February 7, 2017, 11:27:55 am »
He will be no part of the battle as he has pissed away all of his leverage by supporting article 50 unconditionally.

I don't think that will turn out to be the case - the result of the referendum could not be ignored.

The vote at this stage is to trigger the exit process, as decided by the referendum. The terms of the exit can only be negotiated once A50 has been triggered, as the European Commission has made clear.

However we will see how things play out - there is a good chance the Tories will suffer significant splits during the negotiation process.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7 on: February 7, 2017, 11:28:19 am »
Incidentally, he is also in the perfect position to align himself against Trump and for the NHS which will be the fertile battlegrounds between now and the next election. If a centrist politician had been in charge he/she could do neither of these things for obvious reasons.

Hard brexit probably means the destruction of the NHS, there will be no money to pay for it, especially if May slashes tax rates.

No point arguing for the NHS and at the same time waving through the policy that will destroy it.

There will be no £350m per week extra
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #8 on: February 7, 2017, 11:45:44 am »
Labour are the Opposition. By definition it's their job to represent the minority view. The Government can push the mandated position (although exactly what the mandate is for is debatable).

Not as far as I understand the way Parliament works it's not. In general, the parties tend to fall into majority and minority views according to which side of the house they are on but this is not a given.

There will, of course, be topics on which parties agree and they will vote the same way - one of those topics being that the referendum gave a clear instruction to the politicians that the country should leave the EU. As i said the terms of exit can be debated - and will be debated later - but it would be madness to try and re-fight the referendum because we didn't agree with the result of it.

What are those reasons?

As a centrist politician in the mould of Blair, Brown, Miliband or Smith there is absolutely no way they could risk denigrating Trump in case they actually ascend to power (although the chances are admittedly remote) and they are left out in the cold with our most powerful ally. Hence we have seen the rapid reversals in position from the likes of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson now that Trump has actually won the election. Currently I don't see any centrist making a huge difference to the prospects of Labour actually winning an election nevertheless that is the strategy they would have to pursue. Corbyn is unencumbered by this and can therefore direct as much vitriol as he like at Trump.

Regarding the NHS - it is a combination of Clarke, Blair, Brown, Lansley, Cameron, Hunt and Osborne's Mercantilist strategy that has led us to the present situation, one that will surely deteriorate over the coming years. The only option is to continue (and see the service implode), privatise the whole thing (not an option for a Labour politician) or offer a genuine Left-wing alternative in returning to the traditional NHS model. Again Corbyn is ideally poised for the latter. A Centrist could only offer the former.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #9 on: February 7, 2017, 11:50:15 am »
Hard brexit probably means the destruction of the NHS, there will be no money to pay for it, especially if May slashes tax rates.

No point arguing for the NHS and at the same time waving through the policy that will destroy it.


The NHS is being destroyed whether we are in or out of the EU.

Unfortunately the people have decided on Brexit therefore Article 50 has to be triggered.

The details of "hard" vs "soft" brexit will only be negotiated later.

Also, another thing to consider is the state of the Union - a "hard" brexit is the best chance of keeping the UK together, it makes Scottish Independence highly unlikely.

Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #10 on: February 7, 2017, 11:55:18 am »
I don't think that will turn out to be the case - the result of the referendum could not be ignored.

The vote at this stage is to trigger the exit process, as decided by the referendum. The terms of the exit can only be negotiated once A50 has been triggered, as the European Commission has made clear.

However we will see how things play out - there is a good chance the Tories will suffer significant splits during the negotiation process.

We are about to lose the right to have meaningful parliamentary oversight of the process, beyond a vote on the final outcome which I suspect will be the choice between Hard Brexit or Really Hard Brexit, and somehow Labour have played a blinder on this?

Measured opposition from Labour may well have achieved little at this stage in terms of getting concessions if only because the Tories generally seem inclined to toe the line, but if nothing else it would have alleviated the impact of them getting sucked into the blame game when the whole Brexit shitstorm hits the fan.

You'd have to be a lot more optimistic than I am over the Brexit negotiations to want to show your approval for a process which pretty much gives absolute power to this shitty government to drive it.

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #11 on: February 7, 2017, 12:00:53 pm »
The NHS is being destroyed whether we are in or out of the EU.

Unfortunately the people have decided on Brexit therefore Article 50 has to be triggered.

The details of "hard" vs "soft" brexit will only be negotiated later.

Also, another thing to consider is the state of the Union - a "hard" brexit is the best chance of keeping the UK together, it makes Scottish Independence highly unlikely.

The 'people', the very narrow majority of the ones who voted, did not vote for a hard brexit. Some of them might have, some of them might have voted for a Norway-style model, or a Switzerland-type model, or for some of the lies that were peddled by the leave campaign, including that brexit would in some way save the NHS.

Now that the absolute folly of brexit is becoming clearer and clearer, only a fool would continue to trot out the 'will of the people' as a reason for taking us down this path.

Parliament and MP's should be able to separate the will of the people from what is in their best interests, especially as the 'will of the people' was the result of a giant fraud.

I personally don't care what happens to the union apart from the fact that any break-up of it would condemn the people round here to living in a Tory England forever. If the Scots want to leave then good luck to them, if Northern Ireland decides to unite with the Republic then that's great too.

Supporting a hard Brexit because it somehow maintains the union is madness, surely it would lead to a break-up of the union, not the other way round?
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #12 on: February 7, 2017, 12:03:48 pm »
Also, another thing to consider is the state of the Union - a "hard" brexit is the best chance of keeping the UK together, it makes Scottish Independence highly unlikely.

Utter, utter bullshit, Scotland massively voted to remain in the EU and the SNP are doing everything they can to stop Article 50 - do you actually think economic suicide and the other repercussions in the form of Hard Brexit will suddenly change everyone's views on that? And the way this is a further demonstration of the massive splits between them, England and Westminster?

Laughable suggestion, and not the first one coming from you in this thread.

Offline SP

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #13 on: February 7, 2017, 12:07:54 pm »
Unfortunately the people have decided on Brexit therefore Article 50 has to be triggered.

The details of "hard" vs "soft" brexit will only be negotiated later.

Also, another thing to consider is the state of the Union - a "hard" brexit is the best chance of keeping the UK together, it makes Scottish Independence highly unlikely.

The details are not being decided later. The details are set out in the White Paper. Immigration is the first priority, single market access where possible is second. Fallback position WTO rules. They have decided on a hard Brexit. The government will not have to be accountable to Parliament until they come back with the fait accompli take it or leave it deal.

The Government is saying that it has to be done their way, despite not having the slightest sniff of a mandate. The only way the opposition could force a change, is to specify conditions under which they would support article 50. Supplying an alternative roadmap for Article 50 and not supporting the kamikaze Tory version is not thwarting the will of the people. It would still invoke article 50.

The Government's mandate has no clothes, and the Labour Party need to have the bollocks to start pointing that out.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #14 on: February 7, 2017, 12:09:16 pm »
We are about to lose the right to have meaningful parliamentary oversight of the process, beyond a vote on the final outcome which I suspect will be the choice between Hard Brexit or Really Hard Brexit, and somehow Labour have played a blinder on this?

Measured opposition from Labour may well have achieved little at this stage in terms of getting concessions if only because the Tories generally seem inclined to toe the line, but if nothing else it would have alleviated the impact of them getting sucked into the blame game when the whole Brexit shitstorm hits the fan.


Unfortunately the decision to leave has already been taken by the people who voted in the referendum.

Once the article 50 issue is over Labour will be free to contest the terms of our exit - this is the only way to escape the blame game if it all goes ***-up.

In this situation there was no scope for anyone playing a blinder - the vote for leave in most constituencies leaves (any) leader of the Labour Party with his/her hands tied.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #15 on: February 7, 2017, 12:12:19 pm »
The details are not being decided later. The details are set out in the White Paper. Immigration is the first priority, single market access where possible is second. Fallback position WTO rules. They have decided on a hard Brexit. The government will not have to be accountable to Parliament until they come back with the fait accompli take it or leave it deal.

The Government is saying that it has to be done their way, despite not having the slightest sniff of a mandate. The only way the opposition could force a change, is to specify conditions under which they would support article 50. Supplying an alternative roadmap for Article 50 and not supporting the kamikaze Tory version is not thwarting the will of the people. It would still invoke article 50.

The Government's mandate has no clothes, and the Labour Party need to have the bollocks to start pointing that out.

But no side has a mandate on the terms of Brexit as the reasons for either staying or remaining were so varied.

The closest we can get is to look at the position of the official Remain and official leave campaigns - both of which made clear that a vote to leave also meant leaving the Single Market.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #16 on: February 7, 2017, 12:15:37 pm »

Also, another thing to consider is the state of the Union - a "hard" brexit is the best chance of keeping the UK together, it makes Scottish Independence highly unlikely.

What Bizarro world are you living in?

If anything the mood in Scotland and determination for Independence from the fools down south, even amongst those who voted against it last time, has increased substantially since their Independence referendum and especially now after this betrayal.

From the many people I have spoken to when up there over the last couple of years, I get the impression they've gone in all but the legislation, it's just a matter of timing.
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Offline SP

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #17 on: February 7, 2017, 12:16:40 pm »
Unfortunately the decision to leave has already been taken by the people who voted in the referendum.

Once the article 50 issue is over Labour will be free to contest the terms of our exit - this is the only way to escape the blame game if it all goes ***-up.

In this situation there was no scope for anyone playing a blinder - the vote for leave in most constituencies leaves (any) leader of the Labour Party with his/her hands tied.

How will they contest it? They have signed a blank cheque, handed it over to the Tories and are going to beg them not to fill it out for too much.

Parliament is writing itself out of the ability to contest the details of the deal. There are sufficient number of Europhile Tory MPs, who realise the suicidal nature of May's course, with whom a proper opposition could have co-operated to get some real scrutiny and soften the targets. But Corbyn falling over himself to sign article 50 cut that prospect off at the knees.

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #18 on: February 7, 2017, 12:18:48 pm »
But no side has a mandate on the terms of Brexit as the reasons for either staying or remaining were so varied.

The closest we can get is to look at the position of the official Remain and official leave campaigns - both of which made clear that a vote to leave also meant leaving the Single Market.

No, that is fuckwitted. The correct response to not having a mandate is to seek one. Not to pick an extreme interpretation and plough on until it is irrevocable before seeking a mandate.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #19 on: February 7, 2017, 12:23:24 pm »
Utter, utter bullshit, Scotland massively voted to remain in the EU and the SNP are doing everything they can to stop Article 50 - do you actually think economic suicide and the other repercussions in the form of Hard Brexit will suddenly change everyone's views on that? And the way this is a further demonstration of the massive splits between them, England and Westminster?

Laughable suggestion, and not the first one coming from you in this thread.

Sure, but you have to look at the electoral realities.

The reality is that the polls supporting Scottish independence have refused to move. Scotland cannot become independent without another referendum. A vote to remain part of the UK kills off the idea of a referendum for a generation - probably more.

That means that Sturgeon has two years to win a referendum (on the basis that it will be easier to persuade Scots to leave the UK whilst they are still a member of the EU rather than afterwards when they will have to re-apply to join it, which is not a given).

If there is a "hard" brexit that means tariffs with good traded with the rest of the UK (rUK) as well as a hard border. Now Scotland's trade with the rUK dwarfs that of the EU - some estimates put it as four times greater with a million Scottish jobs reliant on it.

So Sturgeon will have to persuade the populace to take that economic hit - which is highly unlikely to happen within the next 24 months as there is no evidence that the appetite is there to take that massive gamble.

A "soft" Brexit - with continued access to the Single Market means that tariffs and a hard border and threat to Scottish Jobs are minimised - therefore, by simple electoral mathematics, a Hard Brexit is the best way of keeping the Union together and Sturgeon is powerless to do much about it.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 12:40:22 pm by Show Me The Mané »
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #20 on: February 7, 2017, 12:26:27 pm »
No, that is fuckwitted. The correct response to not having a mandate is to seek one. Not to pick an extreme interpretation and plough on until it is irrevocable before seeking a mandate.

OK, but the only way to seek one is to call a General Election and all indicators (as the many vociferous posters on the Labour Party thread have pointed out) are that Labour will be completely decimated and the Tories will get in with a massively increased majority and can therefore push as hard a Brexit as they want.


Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #21 on: February 7, 2017, 12:34:59 pm »
How will they contest it? They have signed a blank cheque, handed it over to the Tories and are going to beg them not to fill it out for too much.

Parliament is writing itself out of the ability to contest the details of the deal. There are sufficient number of Europhile Tory MPs, who realise the suicidal nature of May's course, with whom a proper opposition could have co-operated to get some real scrutiny and soften the targets. But Corbyn falling over himself to sign article 50 cut that prospect off at the knees.

But part of the problem here is that any leader would be faced with the same dilemma - Constituencies voting for Brexit, ECom refusing to negotiate until A50 is triggered.

I agree that Parliament is in danger of writing itself out of the scrutiny process - it is unclear what will happen if they vote down the terms of the negotiations. There isn't an easy answer to that nevertheless the most obvious trap - which is to deny the result of the referendum - has needed to be handled.

As most MPs were pro-Remain this will lead to further splinters in the Tories during the negotiation process.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #22 on: February 7, 2017, 12:39:14 pm »
That's not true.

The remain campaign did make it clear that a vote to leave meant leaving the single market but the official leave campaign which was Gove, Johnson, Stuart etc, either said that we would maintain access to the single market or something very close to it.

Gove said not long before the vote that a leave vote meant leaving the single market but said that membership would be replaced by the closest possible relationship with it.

Nobody on the leave side was talking about reverting to WTO rules.

Ah, we disagree. Vote Leave (the official Leave campaign) said we would be leaving the Single Market:

http://stephentall.org/2017/01/18/what-vote-leave-said-about-uk-membership-of-the-single-market/
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #23 on: February 7, 2017, 12:47:36 pm »
Interesting article in today's Guardian with some data to back up what I have been saying for a while:

"For now, however, Labour’s current position of accepting Brexit but pushing for single-market membership afterwards appears to be the one likely to win the widest (if not the most enthusiastic) support.

Whatever your opinion of him, Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is not one that has been associated with triangulation or picking policy positions based on hard-nosed evaluations of what will appeal to target voters. For once, however, it appears to be the Labour leader who has picked the position that is most likely to keep the party together and alienate the fewest voters."


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/07/research-results-corbyn-labour-voters-soft-brexit
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #24 on: February 7, 2017, 01:04:12 pm »
You aren't even reading your own sources properly

Vote Leave was deliberately disingenuous in the referendum campaign in eliding single market membership/access.

Vote Leave were deliberately, even misleadingly, ambiguous about the distinction between membership of the single market and access to it.

Your source links to this as well:

There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html

As I said, leavers all saying that we would be maintaining access to the single market or something very close to it.

You've also got the video evidence of prominent leavers talking about single market access that I've posted here before

And the next paragraph goes on to say..

"But the official Vote Leave campaign was clear: exiting the EU meant leaving the single market. Check out its official site or any of the reports from the campaign, such as that FT headline in my tweet.

And if you don’t want to take it from the Vote Leave side, what about checking out what Remain’s Stronger In campaign had to say here? There are regular attacks on the Leavers for saying the UK should no longer be members of the single market."


Of course both sides said a variety of things in presenting their case - some true some not, but the official Leave campaign, the official Remain campaign, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor all said that voting to Leave included leaving the Single Market.

And of course that also makes sense if people really were motivated to vote on the basis of immigration controls and the Single Market mandates the free movement of people.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #25 on: February 7, 2017, 01:05:49 pm »
Show me the Mane does have a point. As much as Scotland wanted to remain in the EU, a hard Brexit makes the economic case for Scottish independence weaker, as we would be leaving our 'single market' with by far our biggest export market (rUK) to join the Single Market in the EU which makes up a much smaller part of our trade. That is why I as an independence supporter, if it is a hard Brexit, would prefer an independent Scotland to initially only look to join EFTA, so that we could have our own trade deal with the rUK, until such time as rUK has a trade deal with the EU.

Cheers mate  ;D
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #26 on: February 7, 2017, 01:10:32 pm »
And the next paragraph goes on to say..

"But the official Vote Leave campaign was clear: exiting the EU meant leaving the single market. Check out its official site or any of the reports from the campaign, such as that FT headline in my tweet.

And if you don’t want to take it from the Vote Leave side, what about checking out what Remain’s Stronger In campaign had to say here? There are regular attacks on the Leavers for saying the UK should no longer be members of the single market."


Of course both sides said a variety of things in presenting their case - some true some not, but the official Leave campaign, the official Remain campaign, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor all said that voting to Leave included leaving the Single Market.

And of course that also makes sense if people really were motivated to vote on the basis of immigration controls and the Single Market mandates the free movement of people.

That official site contains the quote that I used:

There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it.

The FT headline refers to this article:

https://www.ft.com/content/0c5c74bc-151e-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e

The article contains the following:

Mr Gove, who is also justice secretary, said he wanted the UK to be “outside the single market but have access to it”. Full access would include paying into the EU budget, implementing Brussels’ regulations and accepting free-movement of people — requirements anathema to the Leave campaign.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #27 on: February 7, 2017, 01:21:52 pm »
That official site contains the quote that I used:

There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it.

The FT headline refers to this article:

https://www.ft.com/content/0c5c74bc-151e-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e

The article contains the following:

Mr Gove, who is also justice secretary, said he wanted the UK to be “outside the single market but have access to it”. Full access would include paying into the EU budget, implementing Brussels’ regulations and accepting free-movement of people — requirements anathema to the Leave campaign.

Right - and in the article headed "Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove says leaving EU would mean quitting single market" he indeed makes it clear that we would be outside the single market and negotiate terms to have access to it.

We are of course years off deciding what those terms would be but the closest position to establishing a mandate from the vote would be to go with the positions of the PM, Chancellor, Official Leave and Official Remain campaigns - which were to leave the single market.


So leaving a single market with the rest of the UK would be a bad idea for an independent Scotland but somehow some people think it's a good idea for the UK as a whole to leave a single market which is our largest trading partner?

I suppose this is why the topic engenders such deep feelings as it goes to the very roots of our ideas of nationhood.

I suppose the country feels more relaxed about, say, as many Scots as are possible moving to London or vice versa whilst they dont feel the same way towards (for example) Romania.

If the question were a purely economic one about accessing a common market I think we would have seen a different result.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #28 on: February 7, 2017, 01:27:01 pm »
That is an outline analysis of the Official Vote Leave utterings in isolation. Yet Frottage for instance was not part of Vote Leave. Most of the social media guff (Brexit the Movie etc) was not from Vote Leave. Retaining Single Market access was in play for the Brexit campaigners.

But on TV appearances, the Leave campaign was decidedly malleable. Taking several contradictory positions at once to hit the maximum possible audience. That article also points out the folly of opposition without proposition. If the referendum had a clearly defined course of action for Leave, then this whole current mess would have been avoided.

Fair enough but we have to draw a line somewhere. As you say, the public are often stupid - if they are really claiming that they didn't know they were voting to leave the single market when the PM, Chancellor and both official campaigns said that then what on earth can you do?
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #29 on: February 7, 2017, 01:30:37 pm »
Fair enough but we have to draw a line somewhere. As you say, the public are often stupid - if they are really claiming that they didn't know they were voting to leave the single market when the PM, Chancellor and both official campaigns said that then what on earth can you do?

Again you are ignoring the fact that those warnings from the PM and Chancellor were dismissed as 'Project Fear' and the leave side continued to maintain that we could both have our cake and eat it
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #30 on: February 7, 2017, 01:40:04 pm »
Again you are ignoring the fact that those warnings from the PM and Chancellor were dismissed as 'Project Fear' and the leave side continued to maintain that we could both have our cake and eat it

I'm not - but that's the nature of adversarial political debate. One side says something the other side rubbishes it. There were plenty of claims made by the Remain side too - 3 million jobs at risk, families losing £4300 annually and so on.

You have to take that into account if you are going to trust the people with the vote.

Otherwise in every vote in history you can refuse to acknowledge the result and say "well the other side were lying about X,Y and Z".
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #31 on: February 7, 2017, 02:14:18 pm »
I'm in agreement with a lot of this.

Too many people are trying to fight the referendum all over again instead of dealing with the result.

Trying to block A50 at this stage would achieve nothing and completely decimate the party.
I thought this was all about carrying out the wishes of the people. Corbyn agrees with this doesn't he.
May has now drawn up the hardest right wing Brexit possible. a Brexit she says everyone voted for with their eyes wide open.
Lets stop right their. this is what needs to be fought. is Corbyn agreeing with the Torys claim that every leave voter wanted this extreme right wing Brexit. why has he not challenged them on this lie.
Yesterday May told him. dont you dare stand in the way of the wishes of the people when we implement Brexit.  the Torys told him this before the art 50 vote, the Torys are telling him everything they do is under the pretense of carrying out the wishes of the people. any Labour leader has to knock that lie on the head straight away, he hasn't.
His response after the referendum should have been caution. how he will fight to stop the Torys abusing the result of the referendum to implement a hard Tory Brexit and not the wishes of the people Brexit. that would have knocked the Torys for six, they are now accountable.
Corbyns response was the worse possible response. trigger art 50 as soon as possible.
No concern over the Torys competency to do this or their plans.
This is not about running another EU campaign, it's fighting to force the Torys to respect the wishes of the people. there is no majority for a hard Brexit. the Torys have no right to trigger art 50 under this plan.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #32 on: February 7, 2017, 02:19:24 pm »
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #33 on: February 7, 2017, 02:43:07 pm »
I think the situation is far worse than Labour realize.
 Anna Turleys MP( Redcar) said it's alright people saying Labour should have voted  against art 50 but she has faced questions from her constituents regularly asking her why are we not out of the EU yet. how dramatic. am sure people knew why before they asked her the question.
She won her seat on a 40% turnout.always low turnout in Redcar.. the turnout for the referendum vote in her constituency was 70% with a leave vote just as high 72%, most of those leave voters probably had to be taught how to vote. I remember leave voters telling each other to vote with a pen as MI5 will rub their pencil vote out and change it to remain.
She voted leave to save herself from the backlash from people who never turn up to vote at a GE.
Those leave referendum voters will stop at home at the next GE, the stay voters who voted for her to fight for their interests will turn out in force at the next GE.  I know most will be pissed off with Labour for letting them down so badly. MPs ignored their voters to pacify the once in a life time voters.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same situation across the country.
I do have sympathy for the position Labour MPs were placed in but am afraid it comes with the job.

I suppose it rather depends on what will motivate people to turn out.

Usually, anger motivates people far more than a positive choice for the future - hence the popularity of negative campaigning.

In heavily Brexit constituencies - which are the majority - its likely that more voters will turn out to punish Labour for trying to overturn the result of the referendum by blocking A50 as some are advocating which is why I think the most pragmatic response is to dead-bat this one.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #34 on: February 7, 2017, 02:50:31 pm »
I suppose it rather depends on what will motivate people to turn out.

Usually, anger motivates people far more than a positive choice for the future - hence the popularity of negative campaigning.

In heavily Brexit constituencies - which are the majority - its likely that more voters will turn out to punish Labour for trying to overturn the result of the referendum by blocking A50 as some are advocating which is why I think the most pragmatic response is to dead-bat this one.

They aren't dead-batting it though are they? they are gently knocking it back to the bowler for an easy catch and walking back to the pavilion with their bat under their arm.

It's also not really a situation for dead-batting or remaining neutral, people won't thank them for siding with the government when this all blows up in our faces.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #35 on: February 7, 2017, 03:06:12 pm »
I suppose it rather depends on what will motivate people to turn out.

Usually, anger motivates people far more than a positive choice for the future - hence the popularity of negative campaigning.

In heavily Brexit constituencies - which are the majority - its likely that more voters will turn out to punish Labour for trying to overturn the result of the referendum by blocking A50 as some are advocating which is why I think the most pragmatic response is to dead-bat this one.
While am sure that would happen in some seats I dont think it would be the case all over the country, we have heard the reaction from Sunderland people, they now regret voting leave. this feeling will grow as the realty of Brexit hits home.
We are still ignoring the biggest fact of all. the majority of people dont want this Tory hard Brexit, this will have to be hammered home by Labour in any GE campaign whatever happens now, unfortunately voters are very fickle, even leave voters will say yes I voted leave but I didn't want this Brexit, if you knew voters didn't want this Tory Brexit then why did you back the Torys triggering art 50.
The position now is this Tory hard Brexit will happen. those leave voters will stop at home.
Labour stay voters who have no voice now will vent their anger in the next GE.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 03:07:51 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #36 on: February 7, 2017, 03:12:07 pm »
I would personally prefer that, yes, and if they can't prevent A50 being triggered (which realistically they probably can't) they should support the court case trying to show that it can be revoked and fight any moves towards a hard brexit at every stage.

If they stay where they are they risk losing remain votes to the Lib Dems. If they come out against it they might lose some leave voters but it would be up to Labour to explain why they were going against it and why it would not be in anyone's interest to have a hard brexit.

If they fight a hard Brexit and lose they will be able to attract votes when it goes wrong. If they succeed in securing a soft brexit then that's the next best thing to no brexit at all.

Together Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and other parties could make this completely different to what the Tories are planning.

Well this would be putting a bullet in their own heads - whether it was campaigning against A50 or trying to get it overturned in court would simply be presented to the people as rejecting the outcome of the referendum - and in all the constituencies voting Brexit (a large majority of them) the Labour MPs would pay the price.
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Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #37 on: February 7, 2017, 03:14:45 pm »
What the government are saying though is that Parliament gets a vote on the terms but the alternative is no deal, not no brexit. The choice is between whatever the government negotiate and the WTO fallback position

And the reason that "no Brexit" option is not on the table is because the people voted for Brexit in the referendum.

We are leaving one way or another.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2017, 01:00:07 pm by SP »
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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #38 on: February 7, 2017, 03:21:27 pm »
So how is that different to what May has offered already?

No difference but allows some people to pat each other on the back and make out they have done well

And the reason that "no Brexit" option is not on the table is because the people voted for Brexit in the referendum.

We are leaving one way or another.

You and your 'people' again. You sound like Donald Trump
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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #39 on: February 7, 2017, 03:29:51 pm »
And the reason that "no Brexit" option is not on the table is because the people voted for Brexit in the referendum.

We are leaving one way or another.

And if the option is shit, and the opinion polls move to denote that the public mood has swung, Parliament could cancel the results of a narrow advisory referendum. Or they could ask the people to choice between the options.