Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 113608 times)

Offline shelts

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4920 on: March 18, 2017, 11:53:02 AM »
If the rumours of an early general election are true, then it's another piece of hypocrisy from May. She talks about how the UK's focus should be on Brexit, without the distraction of a Scottish independence referendum yet just after triggering Article 50, she plans to hold an unnecessary General Election that, like she says about a 2nd independence referendum, can wait until after the conclusion of Article 50 negotiations.
she can't simply just call an election, she would either have to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act or organise a No Confidence vote in her own government which in itself would raise major questions for her own authority!

It is possible she may attempt to repeal the FTPA but don't think that can happen in time for a 4th May GE though.

It might be best if it was held though as it would at least show up Corbyn for the charade that he is and should cause his downfall when he examines how bad his defeat actually was allowing the crushed party to rebuild under a competent leader
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Offline killer_heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4921 on: March 18, 2017, 11:56:28 AM »
If the rumours of an early general election are true, then it's another piece of hypocrisy from May. She talks about how the UK's focus should be on Brexit, without the distraction of a Scottish independence referendum yet just after triggering Article 50, she plans to hold an unnecessary General Election that, like she says about a 2nd independence referendum, can wait until after the conclusion of Article 50 negotiations.

There won't be another general election until 2019 at the earliest. The possible reason for setting the wheels in motion passed once the Brexit bill went through.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4922 on: March 18, 2017, 12:08:32 PM »
When it was found out Corbyn had IRA pals, the membership still voted for him. I think that just about sums it up. He doesn't deserve to be the leader of Labour for that alone.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4923 on: March 18, 2017, 12:16:20 PM »
When it was found out Corbyn had IRA pals, the membership still voted for him. I think that just about sums it up. He doesn't deserve to be the leader of Labour for that alone.
no they were desperate to try to paint him as some kind of ahead of his time peacemaker, not a terrorist fanboy and those desperate for a lefty fell for that bullshit

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4924 on: March 18, 2017, 12:22:34 PM »
no they were desperate to try to paint him as some kind of ahead of his time peacemaker, not a terrorist fanboy and those desperate for a lefty fell for that bullshit

Corbyn in the eyes of his fans: always ready to take the credit for anything, however peripheral or non-existent his part in it, never ready to take responsibility for anything, however concrete the evidence.
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Offline killer_heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4925 on: March 18, 2017, 12:26:50 PM »
Corbyn has done one thing in that he has put leftist policies and focus on the agenda. The problem is its the Labour party where that has happened whilst the rest of the country is residing pretty much on the centre and right of centre.

Questions need to be asked about all the MP's however. Even the Blair wing is a bit of a joke at the moment. You have MP's like Kendall, Cooper, Creasey, Jess Phillips etc. joining Harriet Harman in focussing plenty of time on offensiveness, womens/equality issues and refugee causes. All of those are noble causes but I can see why many people feel a sense of detachment from MP's like those.

The whole Labour party need to have a think of what they are actually there to do.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4926 on: March 18, 2017, 12:30:38 PM »
no they were desperate to try to paint him as some kind of ahead of his time peacemaker, not a terrorist fanboy and those desperate for a lefty fell for that bullshit
People actually fell for that. Hilarious and sad.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4927 on: March 18, 2017, 12:31:48 PM »
Corbyn has done one thing in that he has put leftist policies and focus on the agenda. The problem is its the Labour party where that has happened whilst the rest of the country is residing pretty much on the centre and right of centre.
the problem is that people will now associate those policies with him, who is by and large toxic with the electorate

Offline killer_heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4928 on: March 18, 2017, 12:35:11 PM »
the problem is that people will now associate those policies with him, who is by and large toxic with the electorate

To be fair its more of a focus. I don't really know any policies apart from re-nationalising the railways.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4929 on: March 18, 2017, 12:36:40 PM »
When it was found out Corbyn had IRA pals, the membership still voted for him. I think that just about sums it up. He doesn't deserve to be the leader of Labour for that alone.

i'd really love to debate that crap assertion with you but I am restricted to flying visits only in this territory so you can carry on your nonsense alone.
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Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4930 on: March 18, 2017, 12:41:27 PM »
Corbyn has done one thing in that he has put leftist policies and focus on the agenda. The problem is its the Labour party where that has happened whilst the rest of the country is residing pretty much on the centre and right of centre.

Questions need to be asked about all the MP's however. Even the Blair wing is a bit of a joke at the moment. You have MP's like Kendall, Cooper, Creasey, Jess Phillips etc. joining Harriet Harman in focussing plenty of time on offensiveness, womens/equality issues and refugee causes. All of those are noble causes but I can see why many people feel a sense of detachment from MP's like those.

The whole Labour party need to have a think of what they are actually there to do.

But he hasn't. Corbyn's policies are not on the agenda. They have not sparked a national debate. No one outside the party noticed them in the sea of self inflicted gaffes. Can you think of anything where Corbyn has driven the agenda in a positive way. Traingate is about the closest I can think of, and that is decidedly more focused on the gaffe on not the nationalisation of the railway.

Corbyn is not that associated with policies, as his failure to communicate means that no policy is closely tied to him except perhaps whipping for Brexit to abolishing Trident and sending the subs out without missiles. Certainly nothing key to the next leader staging a recovery.

Offline killer_heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4931 on: March 18, 2017, 12:50:24 PM »
But he hasn't. Corbyn's policies are not on the agenda. They have not sparked a national debate. No one outside the party noticed them in the sea of self inflicted gaffes. Can you think of anything where Corbyn has driven the agenda in a positive way. Traingate is about the closest I can think of, and that is decidedly more focused on the gaffe on not the nationalisation of the railway.

Corbyn is not that associated with policies, as his failure to communicate means that no policy is closely tied to him except perhaps whipping for Brexit to abolishing Trident and sending the subs out without missiles. Certainly nothing key to the next leader staging a recovery.

Yes thats why I said to the other poster that actually to be fair its more focus then policies. In reality though one of his many failures has been the allowance of the party to drift into nothingness. The ones against him seem to be spending most of their times on things the public has very little appetite for.

Its not a party that stands for working people anymore.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4932 on: March 18, 2017, 12:51:12 PM »
OK, temporary un-flounce for clarification:

Let me try again. How about:

"Article 50 will be invoked immediately." That was Cameron's position before the result. Corbyn thought that Cameron would, and should, keep his promise to the people. Even though Corbyn himself was against leaving and deplored the result of the referendum, this U-turn by Cameron was a surprise to everyone.

I'll leave it there. Probably.
Refusing to vote to trigger art 50 until he's satisfied the Torys have a decent plan isn't refusing the wishes of the people. Brexit is a policy, Corbyn had the right to challenge the Torys policy on Brexit.
He had the right to refuse to trigger art 50 until he believed the Torys policy on Brexit was in the interests of the man in the street rather than the interests of the Tory Partys right wing ideology.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4933 on: March 18, 2017, 01:40:04 PM »
i'd really love to debate that crap assertion with you but I am restricted to flying visits only in this territory so you can carry on your nonsense alone.
basically you can't debate it so your trying to be mr moral high ground on this issue and slag everyone else off.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4934 on: March 18, 2017, 01:40:52 PM »
To be fair its more of a focus. I don't really know any policies apart from re-nationalising the railways.
but the Tories will happily paint any left wing politician going forward as Corbyn mk2 for a good while

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4935 on: March 18, 2017, 01:50:14 PM »
Apparently this thread is 'full of two-faced twats'.

Ah well...
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4936 on: March 18, 2017, 02:40:59 PM »
Am all for a respectful debate on whats wrong with the Labour party. the problem runs deep,we've seen one of the biggest problems throughout the thread.
The biggest criticism of Corbyn is his competency yet this is not getting acknowledged.
Competency isn't a left or right wing issue, competency is about someone being capable of doing their job properly.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4937 on: March 18, 2017, 02:50:50 PM »
Apparently this thread is 'full of two-faced twats'.

Ah well...

Microcosm of the Labour party then...

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4938 on: March 18, 2017, 02:57:49 PM »
Reading Albie's post, Mag Hull's post about what a post-industrial Labour Party needs to be, and some of the comments about this thread elsewhere in the site, I wonder whether it's worth starting a new thread or re-starting this thread to talk about what the Labour Party should be going forward.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4939 on: March 18, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »
Certainly splitting what Labour should be from the current carnage would hopefully take the venom out of at least one of the topics.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4940 on: March 18, 2017, 03:08:54 PM »
There's already been a thread like that hasn't there?
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Offline cloggypop

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4941 on: March 18, 2017, 03:20:25 PM »
Yeah, this one and look at the state of it.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4942 on: March 18, 2017, 03:21:55 PM »
Still - would be worth giving it a go.
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Offline In Fowler We Trust

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4943 on: March 18, 2017, 03:30:46 PM »
Apparently this thread is 'full of two-faced twats'.

Ah well...

Just seen that.  Also wish he would stop trying to "guilt trip" posters by using Bill Shankly.  Totally out of order.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4944 on: March 18, 2017, 03:33:23 PM »
Still - would be worth giving it a go.

I think it would be as doomed as the party itself. This thread demonstrates that there is absolutely no consensus as to whether Labour should be a socialist party of protest, or a socially progressive party seeking parliamentary power. Deciding on that identity will tend to dictate the direction of travel in the debate.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4945 on: March 18, 2017, 03:48:56 PM »
I think it would be as doomed as the party itself. This thread demonstrates that there is absolutely no consensus as to whether Labour should be a socialist party of protest, or a socially progressive party seeking parliamentary power. Deciding on that identity will tend to dictate the direction of travel in the debate.

I can't think of too many examples in which the second largest party in a western country would be simply willing to be a party of protest. Although Labour bizarrely seem to be content with this, even when they are agreeing with the Conservatives on policies that will end up hurting Labour voters (i.e. Brexit).  From the outside it seems, Labour's problem is that in some respects it is a "Big Tent" party, but under its current leadership, it seems anchored to a train of thought that is several decades old and does not take into account the realities of voters (not paid-up party members, but ordinary voters who do not have a fixed party affiliation and who tend to make-or-break elections). History has repeatedly shown that parties (whether they lead or not) can be easily pushed to the wayside in the public consensus, once they go down this path. In fact, in its current guise, Labour may be treading down it already. And fixating on courting the working-class UKIP voter by pandering to their base ideas will only alienate other elements (Europhiles, social progressives etc) within Labour's ranks.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4946 on: March 18, 2017, 04:31:29 PM »
i'd really love to debate that crap assertion with you but I am restricted to flying visits only in this territory so you can carry on your nonsense alone.
I think the evidence is overwhelming on this. How you can expect Corbyn to win a general election while having such friends is beyond me. Most of the country won't touch him with a barge pole.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4947 on: March 18, 2017, 04:33:53 PM »
Reading Albie's post, Mag Hull's post about what a post-industrial Labour Party needs to be, and some of the comments about this thread elsewhere in the site, I wonder whether it's worth starting a new thread or re-starting this thread to talk about what the Labour Party should be going forward.
A party which seeks to win the general election, to you know gain power, and not be some 1970s tribute act to an era which is long gone and not coming back. Class war politics does not work in Britain anymore.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4948 on: March 18, 2017, 06:05:06 PM »
Post budget U turn

Quote
Despite Budget U-turn, Con lead up 2 to 17pts
Con 42% +1
Lab 25% -1
LD 12% +1     
UKIP 10% -1
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4949 on: March 18, 2017, 06:21:30 PM »
Post budget U turn

labour to lib dem and kipper to Tory?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4950 on: March 18, 2017, 06:22:05 PM »
Post budget U turn


It's actually been a pretty bad week all round for the government and May, but they're pretty much untouchable in national polls in the absence of an effective opposition.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4951 on: March 18, 2017, 07:21:02 PM »
Am all for a respectful debate on whats wrong with the Labour party. the problem runs deep,we've seen one of the biggest problems throughout the thread.
The biggest criticism of Corbyn is his competency yet this is not getting acknowledged.
Competency isn't a left or right wing issue, competency is about someone being capable of doing their job properly.

Competency and ideology are interlinked when it comes to discussion of Corbyn though. Some of Corbyn's supporters argue he is rendered incompetent by those they view as ideologicaly opposed to him, aka the "Blairites", who allegedly undermine him at every turn. If only they kept quiet, he would be doing a lot better.

I am willing to believe there are some within the party who were never willing to give him a chance, and even I felt that those who criticised him in the autumn of 2015 were jumping the gun but I also believe there are now a number of incidents attributable to him that he can, and should be legitimately criticised for, from any wing of the party.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4952 on: March 18, 2017, 07:24:27 PM »
I feel the PLP gets something of a tough time from party members.

They probably didn't give him a chance.  But (and it's a big but), they actually knew him, they actually had to work with him. Their opinions need to be afforded more respect on those grounds...
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4953 on: March 18, 2017, 07:33:09 PM »
I feel the PLP gets something of a tough time from party members.

They probably didn't give him a chance.  But (and it's a big but), they actually knew him, they actually had to work with him. Their opinions need to be afforded more respect on those grounds...

For all the praise that Sadiq Khan now gets, his decision to nominate Corbyn in 2015 raises questions about his judgment IMO.

Offline killer_heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4954 on: March 18, 2017, 07:57:43 PM »
For all the praise that Sadiq Khan now gets, his decision to nominate Corbyn in 2015 raises questions about his judgment IMO.

The whole field was fucking awful.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4955 on: March 18, 2017, 07:59:22 PM »
I feel the PLP gets something of a tough time from party members.

They probably didn't give him a chance.  But (and it's a big but), they actually knew him, they actually had to work with him. Their opinions need to be afforded more respect on those grounds...

I dont think the PLP gets a tough time from the members. If anything, they need to be given a tougher time.

The problem with the membership now is just the obsession with Corbyn. Their hatred of the PLP is correct.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4956 on: March 18, 2017, 08:32:50 PM »
I dont think the PLP gets a tough time from the members. If anything, they need to be given a tougher time.

The problem with the membership now is just the obsession with Corbyn. Their hatred of the PLP is correct.
Strange comments. To what end is hatred of our MPs and giving them a tougher time the way forward?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4957 on: March 18, 2017, 08:40:38 PM »
Strange comments. To what end is hatred of our MPs and giving them a tougher time the way forward?

It's the sort of rhetoric which drives people to dislike 'professional politicians'. Personally I've seen enough of not-particularly-professional politicians since September 2015 to know I wouldn't want to demonise and generalise that Labour MPs are all a problem

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4958 on: March 18, 2017, 08:45:52 PM »
Strange comments. To what end is hatred of our MPs and giving them a tougher time the way forward?

Hatred was clearly the wrong word so I will retract that. But they dont deserve an easier time from the membership. You cannot put all the blame at Corbyn's door and they have been complicit in the Labour party going away from what its supposed to be.

Offline Mag Hull

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #4959 on: March 18, 2017, 09:01:31 PM »
The lunatics are looking to take over the asylum - seriously considering packing my membership in.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 09:05:07 PM by Mag Hull »
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