Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 110487 times)

Offline Andy ♥ Old Trafford

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The Labour Party (*)
« on: July 23, 2016, 02:11:51 PM »
(*) - Mods if it gets stupid/insulting, just delete or lock it..

I've had a go at asking this question a few times, and it's not been answered..

We all know the Labour Party has got problems, we all know something needs to be done. But. What? What needs to be done? By who? Something that will work.

I hear that we have to try and get 'middle England' votes, the aims and wishes of the Membership have to be addressed, the aims and wishes of the PLP need to be addressed, the needs and aims and wishes of the 'general population' and the 'middle classes' and the 'working classes' and business and the rest need to be addressed.

To me, it seems that many of these things are opposites. I'm not sure what the Labour Party should be aiming for. I'm not sure where they should be placed? On the Left? In the Middle? Slightly to the Right? Going after poor/disabled/working class votes? Going after well-off/middle class votes, going after affluent votes? Votes from the Country? Votes from the Cities? From the North? The South? Scotland?

The Labour Party seems to me to be all over the place and it's because they have no actual aim or target. What should it be? Where should it leave? Who should do it? How should they be selected?

Any answers to this would be great. Any rubbish/insults are likely to get the thread locked or deleted, so save your arguments for other threads. This is just what *you* think should happen.


For the record, I honestly don't think I'm in any way qualified to answer pretty much any of that. Any answers can't just come from Political Knowledge or Experience - they have to come in the form of appealing to the masses - as people have said - there's no point having a Party set up to be in permanent Opposition. They can't do anything from there.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:17:34 AM by SP »
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2016, 02:18:06 PM »
I'm not sure there's any point until the leadership election is over.
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Offline Andy ♥ Old Trafford

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2016, 02:20:46 PM »
I'm not sure there's any point until the leadership election is over.

I think it has a bearing regardless of the result. I think that the only thing that will come out post-decision will be arguing either way - which can be done in the Leadership Thread.

This is more of 'how do you think it should go'

But if you're not sure, feel free to lock.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2016, 10:34:24 PM »
I'm not sure there's any point until the leadership election is over.

I think the split is far too large and the two warring factions will never agree from this moment on so they need to go their own way, this may leave the people in the middle to form another party which is more centrist of course without many or any extremes.

 i assume this would be the largest party by the way not sure what they could call themselves maybe the New Democratic Labour Party.

This might surprise some in here but i would be in this party.

Then you can have a solid totally left wing party possibly keeping the Labour name

With also a sort of Social Democrat party from the right or they could merge with the Libdems again.

The broad church idea is finished the church has been demolished in the last 12 months.
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Offline killer_heels

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2016, 10:48:17 PM »
A split really does seem like the best approach. Smith is never going to win, Corbyn has his issues and will never give up the leadership and the PLP mostly didnt accept him and even less now.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2016, 08:20:18 AM »
I go with Geoff's split, but I think the word 'Labour' will not feature in the centre party's name. And, I also think there is a chance that a part of the tory party could join them. I know I will be ploughing a loan furrow on this one, but I have a feeling that Brexit means Remain, and the tories still have a Vesuvian boil to lance.

The resulting Blairesque party, would then be in power for a generation, and probably drift inexorably to the right.

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Offline Circa1892

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 08:29:59 AM »
In theory, there is more in common between those on the left of the Tories and the right of Labour than they have with the Jon Redwood's and John McDonnell's, and they'd be happier together in a Party that would probably comprise of what's left of the Lib Dems (or at least Nick Clegg...).

It'll never happen though, for starters because why would Tories leave a Party that now has the potential to govern in perpetuity.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2016, 08:51:17 AM »
In theory, there is more in common between those on the left of the Tories and the right of Labour than they have with the Jon Redwood's and John McDonnell's, and they'd be happier together in a Party that would probably comprise of what's left of the Lib Dems (or at least Nick Clegg...).

It'll never happen though, for starters because why would Tories leave a Party that now has the potential to govern in perpetuity.
I know much is made of their legendary 'will to win', but I think they still have great potential for a brutal bust-up over Europe.  Admittedly there is a fair bit of wishul thinking going on here, but it's the only thing keeping me going.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 10:46:42 AM »
I know much is made of their legendary 'will to win', but I think they still have great potential for a brutal bust-up over Europe.  Admittedly there is a fair bit of wishul thinking going on here, but it's the only thing keeping me going.

Keep going Doc. I like it.

But, regarding the main question, I also think Labour will split. Tough to do under FPTP, but almost inevitable.

Why? Because Corbyn will win with a reduced majority. That reduced majority will do nothing to alleviate his main problem which is obviously a catastrophic lack of support in the PLP. A group who had no confidence in him before is unlikely to have gained confidence after a leadership election which is proving more divisive than ever.

The PLP will appoint their own leader and their own whips. They will become the Official Opposition and appoint a shadow cabinet. Corbyn may muster 20 or 30 MPs in his group and fall below the SNP and therefore be relegated to 'also rans'.

What will happen then? That's partly up the broad mass of the Labour membership. Will they force de-selections.

I've written before on why that might not be such a good move for them.  Right now I'm off out to play cricket so I'll leave it there.

PS I'd like the moderate group to take the name 'Labour' for sentimental and historic reasons. It means a lot to me - certainly more to me and people like me than it does to the Momentum people, ex-Greens, Trotskyitsts etc etc. But that may not be possible.

How about 'Democratic Labour'?
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 11:11:39 AM »
Moderate. Now there's double speak for you.

A split does inevitable. Legal wranglings to follow over who  has the right to what in Parliament and beyond. Burnham etc are to be applauded for trying to be peacemakers but it's looking to be in vain.

Offline Wilmo

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 01:20:04 PM »
Keep going Doc. I like it.

But, regarding the main question, I also think Labour will split. Tough to do under FPTP, but almost inevitable.

Why? Because Corbyn will win with a reduced majority. That reduced majority will do nothing to alleviate his main problem which is obviously a catastrophic lack of support in the PLP. A group who had no confidence in him before is unlikely to have gained confidence after a leadership election which is proving more divisive than ever.

The PLP will appoint their own leader and their own whips. They will become the Official Opposition and appoint a shadow cabinet. Corbyn may muster 20 or 30 MPs in his group and fall below the SNP and therefore be relegated to 'also rans'.

What will happen then? That's partly up the broad mass of the Labour membership. Will they force de-selections.

I've written before on why that might not be such a good move for them.  Right now I'm off out to play cricket so I'll leave it there.

PS I'd like the moderate group to take the name 'Labour' for sentimental and historic reasons. It means a lot to me - certainly more to me and people like me than it does to the Momentum people, ex-Greens, Trotskyitsts etc etc. But that may not be possible.

How about 'Democratic Labour'?

Are you being serious?

Some serious mental gymnastics going on right there, whatever you think of Corbyn.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2016, 09:42:56 AM »
Moderate. Now there's double speak for you.

Why? 'Moderate' meaning a commitment to parliament and representative institutions. 'Moderate' meaning social democratic. 'Moderate' meaning a belief in a mixed economy with a lively and healthy private sector.  'Moderate' meaning committed to winning back Conservative votes to the Labour party. 'Moderate' meaning working with the grain of British society and not against it. 'Moderate' meaning embracing the work of previous Labour governments and building upon it.

I'm surprised you complain about the term. I know you'd prefer me to describe the pre-Corbyn Labour party as 'Tory-lite', Blairite' etc, but I thought 'moderate' would give you more than you needed.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 09:55:28 AM »
Why? 'Moderate' meaning a commitment to parliament and representative institutions. 'Moderate' meaning social democratic. 'Moderate' meaning a belief in a mixed economy with a lively and healthy private sector.  'Moderate' meaning committed to winning back Conservative votes to the Labour party. 'Moderate' meaning working with the grain of British society and not against it. 'Moderate' meaning embracing the work of previous Labour governments and building upon it.

I'm surprised you complain about the term. I know you'd prefer me to describe the pre-Corbyn Labour party as 'Tory-lite', Blairite' etc, but I thought 'moderate' would give you more than you needed.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 09:57:13 AM »
Why? 'Moderate' meaning a commitment to parliament and representative institutions. 'Moderate' meaning social democratic. 'Moderate' meaning a belief in a mixed economy with a lively and healthy private sector.  'Moderate' meaning committed to winning back Conservative votes to the Labour party. 'Moderate' meaning working with the grain of British society and not against it. 'Moderate' meaning embracing the work of previous Labour governments and building upon it.

I'm surprised you complain about the term. I know you'd prefer me to describe the pre-Corbyn Labour party as 'Tory-lite', Blairite' etc, but I thought 'moderate' would give you more than you needed.

Funny enough i would call that moderate as well and support that.

We need to be shot of the extremes at both ends of this spectrum.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 10:01:34 AM »
Those who self identify as moderates aren't gentle, measured, unruffled, keepers of the peace.

Who said moderates were gentle or pacifists? Who wants to 'keep the peace' (the phrase of a magistrate by the way) when the peace conceals incompetence and ineptitude? After all oblivion is a type of peace. And that's where the LP is heading under JC.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 11:30:19 AM »
I don't see an obvious solution for Labour out of this mess at all.

A split would devastating under FPTP, and given Corbyn is practically certain to win the leadership election with a comfortable majority, its the Corbyn group which would keep the Labour name I would imagine, that name still gets you a lot of votes in many areas of the country, irrespective of policies and candidates.

The alternative is staying united under a Leader who can't lead, and the Tories will spend the coming years strongly defining Labour as an incompetent untrustworthy mess, Labour will take years to shake that off even if they do change leadership in future.

I don't even see Corbyn standing down after the inevitable loss in 2020, unless the party has (through deselections) managed to change the balance of MPs to guarantee that another candidate from his wing of the party would be on the ballot next time.

Meanwhile you have a Tory party doing whatever the hell it likes with either no effective opposition or alternatively facing a growing threat from UKIP, and the last thing any of us want is a Tory party that feels it is pulled even more towards Nationalism/Populism to see of a threat from those c*nts.

The whole thing is utterly depressing to me and to be honest I'm one of the relatively lucky ones in that I am not in a group that is targeted by the worst excesses of unfettered Tory government, but it still doesn't mean I want to see it happen.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2016, 12:11:55 PM »
Where to now?

The longer it goes on, it looks like oblivion.

I guess at the moment, I see this happening:

Corbyn wins the leadership election.
Labour wobble on and get hammered in the next election.
Hopefully, Corbyn leaves.

Any other outcome - split, or Corbyn loses a general election and stays, seem awful to me.

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2016, 05:06:26 PM »
The thing with the Labour Party is its misplaced sense of solidarity. The clue is in the name, after all. We saw it under Brown and then to a greater extent under Miliband - willingness and even determination to support incompetent and/or unpopular leaders despite the clear problems with their leadership.

 The defeats in 2010 and 2015 were bad for Labour, very bad indeed. The drubbing Miliband in particular received has put the party in an almost impossible position when it comes to winning in 2020 or before regardless of who was leader but Corbyn's victory last September has made defeat, if not all out death, a total certainty.

 Corbyn's victory was the Labour Party at its absolute worst. Principles over power. Debate over decisions. Niceties over necessity. In fact, let me rephrase that; Corbyn's victory was the wider British left at its absolute worst rather than the Labour Party alone.

 This man is never going to win a general election. Ever. Yet many decent left wing people, who know this deep down, cast that aside. For many, it's out of a sense of nostalgia. Others out of ego. Others because they genuinely feel they'd rather lose with Corbyn than win with someone like Tony Blair, a position I think is so despicable there aren't even words for it.

 So here we are. We have an uninspiring leader with no charisma and zero leadership skills in possibly the safest position possible. He's wrong on just about everything else but he's right on one thing; he has a huge mandate and he'll probably retain it.

 So what then? Well, I think any Labour MP worth their salt should split the moment when (if) Corbyn wins again. If they are serious about fighting for social democracy in Britain and taking the fight to the Tories (who have become very beatable after Brexit) then the only option is to leave Corbyn to lead his own hard left rump party to witter on about Cuba, Trident and the Falklands in total obscurity where they belong.

 I fear that won't happen, though. I fear they'll feign unity, bite their collective tongue and then face deselection either at the hands of McCluskey or Tory candidates in the next election. It's a seriously depressing picture but I think it's a realistic one.

 I like Owen Smith and I hope he wins. I really, really do. But he loses and the Labour Party is dead, I'm afraid. And the grave will be where it belongs.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2016, 09:42:49 PM »
Travis i disagree slightly the party as it is now will be dead if Corbyn wins but if nothing else the last few months have shown us  that the Labour party as it is now is an unworkable mess.

The ones Yorkie rightly calls moderate who after all must still be the majority of the members and voters,  can form a new Democratic Labour Party from the ashes and ditch the extreme left and extreme right.

 If that happens,  in the long term this could be seen as cathartic,  i know I would throw my hat in with that group
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2016, 10:19:39 PM »
Travis i disagree slightly the party as it is now will be dead if Corbyn wins but if nothing else the last few months have shown us  that the Labour party as it is now is an unworkable mess.

The ones Yorkie rightly calls moderate who after all must still be the majority of the members and voters,  can form a new Democratic Labour Party from the ashes and ditch the extreme left and extreme right.

 If that happens,  in the long term this could be seen as cathartic,  i know I would throw my hat in with that group

Is that grouping the majority of members? MPs is a given, the membership of the party though?

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2016, 10:23:00 PM »
Is that grouping the majority of members? MPs is a given, the membership of the party though?

I still think the majority of members are not in any left wing group they just don't shout about it.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 11:11:08 PM »
There just seems to be a dearth of talent in the Labour Party at the moment, in contrast with the past. Labour could do with a charismatic leader in the mould of Harold Wilson to maybe unite the party, but I don't see anyone up to it. This is part of the reason that people have clutched straws and forced this position of leadership onto Corbyn. Pleasant enough bloke and very earnest, but not a leader, but then neither is Owen Smith, if I'm being honest.

All I can see happening is, Corbyn winning the vote and getting a large number of PLP members deselected. I'm hoping some of these form a more centrist party, maybe with a Pro European leaning, where they might be able to sweep up some of the remain votes. It'll be a mess, but it's probably for the best in the long run. We need another SDP, leaving Labour for the hard left.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2016, 11:30:00 PM »
Said it before and I'll say it again, splitting the party is the worst thing that can happen to it and the wider left. Neither the Labour Party or the 'new SDP' will come out of it well in anything close to an election in 4 years time, it would take years to build a new party and the thought of abandoning the Labour name, it's heritage and what the Labour Party has given to the country is something I find nauseating if I am being honest. Assuming Corbyn does win the leadership contest, the quickest route back to power I would say is still a new leader in 2020 and them fighting the election in 2025 rather then two left wing parties taking votes of each other, fighting with one another and leaving the Tories an open goal way beyond 2025.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2016, 11:37:28 PM »
There just seems to be a dearth of talent in the Labour Party at the moment, in contrast with the past. Labour could do with a charismatic leader in the mould of Harold Wilson to maybe unite the party, but I don't see anyone up to it. This is part of the reason that people have clutched straws and forced this position of leadership onto Corbyn. Pleasant enough bloke and very earnest, but not a leader, but then neither is Owen Smith, if I'm being honest.


The lack of talent isn't as bad as it looks, there are some people who while I personally find a bit too much to the right of the party are talented politicians. The problem is that too many of them threw their toys out of the pram when Corbyn won the leadership contest, know that the party in its current state is unlikely to win an election regardless of who the leader is so are keep their heads down and waiting for better times. If we were in the same situation we were when say John Smith passed away where the party was on the up but found itself in a leadership contest they would be climbing over each other to put their names in the ring.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 11:38:49 PM »
If Corbyn wins, we are looking at mass deselections. He has unleashed the Momentum beast, but is not in control of it. They will demand blood. The deselected incumbents will probably defend their seats and many will succeed. A post Corbyn party could reunite, but it will take diplomacy skills no one has shown thus far.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 11:42:38 PM »
There just seems to be a dearth of talent in the Labour Party at the moment, in contrast with the past. Labour could do with a charismatic leader in the mould of Harold Wilson to maybe unite the party, but I don't see anyone up to it. This is part of the reason that people have clutched straws and forced this position of leadership onto Corbyn. Pleasant enough bloke and very earnest, but not a leader, but then neither is Owen Smith, if I'm being honest.

All I can see happening is, Corbyn winning the vote and getting a large number of PLP members deselected. I'm hoping some of these form a more centrist party, maybe with a Pro European leaning, where they might be able to sweep up some of the remain votes. It'll be a mess, but it's probably for the best in the long run. We need another SDP, leaving Labour for the hard left.

I'm not sure about there being less talent in the Labour party now, it may well be true, but I believe if we were having a leadership contest without Jeremy Corbyn we'd see some more viable alternatives emerge even though I actually like Owen Smith. If we're being honest whoever the PLP put up against Jeremy was on a hiding to nothing, no matter how competent they are, no matter how good their ideas are they're just extremely unlikely to win. I don't even think somebody like Dan Jarvis would win. I sincerely hope Owen Smith is victorious unlikely though it is, he may not be the man who leads Labour to a sweeping majority in 2020 but he is a fairly safe pair of hands who could help set Labour up for greater times in future.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2016, 11:55:51 PM »
Said it before and I'll say it again, splitting the party is the worst thing that can happen to it and the wider left. Neither the Labour Party or the 'new SDP' will come out of it well in anything close to an election in 4 years time, it would take years to build a new party and the thought of abandoning the Labour name, it's heritage and what the Labour Party has given to the country is something I find nauseating if I am being honest. Assuming Corbyn does win the leadership contest, the quickest route back to power I would say is still a new leader in 2020 and them fighting the election in 2025 rather then two left wing parties taking votes of each other, fighting with one another and leaving the Tories an open goal way beyond 2025.

But a Corbyn Labour party or SWP mark II would not have much of a chance of taking votes off what you call a "new SDP". You just have to look to the electoral record of the Far Left for that. It's not abysmal; it's worse than that.

I agree a split is better avoided. But, for me, only if Corbyn can be ousted. Failing that it becomes very likely. After all, the PLP can't work with him and he can't work with them. In truth, the only reason Corbyn has stuck with the Labour party all these years is convenience. He would have long ago ceased to be a Labour party member if he'd followed his conscience and ideology and resigned. But he wanted to remain an MP. A very disloyal one! But still an MP. His commitment to the Labour party and his parliamentary colleagues was extremely weak until, amazingly, he became its leader. There are no strong emotional or ideological bonds which bind Corbyn to the parliamentary party.

Things are now very different to what they were back in 1980-81 when the old SDP split off from the Labour party. Back then it was still possible to believe that socialism had an economic programme. People in the mainstream of the Labour party could still talk about nationalisation of the top 200 companies and exchange controls and protective tariffs without blushing. Some could even point to the 'actually existing socialism' of the USSR and eastern Europe and say that there might be lessons for the capitalist economies to learn from observing how they worked (You had to ignore the Stasi of course). And back in 1981 there was still something in the UK that was still recognisably the mass industrial working class that Marx and Engels had once identified. All these things made ordinary democratic socialists and trade unionists reluctant to join the SDP and cut themselves off from the 'forward march' of history.

But this isn't so now. The old working class has withered away along with manufacturing industry and mining. The socialist systems of eastern Europe collapsed in ignominy and only a very few diehards regret their passing. The old democratic socialist economic programme of a planned economy, massive expansion of the public sector and capital controls is now dead. In a strange way only UKIP, as a national socialist party which hates 'globalisation', could conceivably resurrect it.

All these things might mean that the desire to stick with a Labour party with Corbyn as leader for the next 5 or 10 years, and with Momentum running amok, is weaker than it would have been 20 or 30 years ago. That makes a split far less daunting than it used to be.   

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2016, 12:15:07 AM »
Yorky, I don't buy that Corbyn will survive a 2020 election as leader. The likes of Momentum could make as much noise they want post 2020 but if the inevitable happens and Labour get hammered, the Unions won't continue to back him, of that I have little doubt and if the Unions stop backing him, he's gone. I can't see any situation in which he is leader post the next election.

The rest of your post - lets just say I think we're in as much need of Socialist principles in this country now as we ever have been. Rising inequality, zero hours contracts, lack of housing, the old industrial working class that existed until the 1980's may not exist, but those people are still there and still at the bottom of the social ladder, they didn't miraculously all become middle class despite what the Tories would have us believe. I'm also sure your aware of the differences between Socialism and Communism so I would bother pointing that out to you.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2016, 10:29:55 AM »
Yorky, I don't buy that Corbyn will survive a 2020 election as leader. The likes of Momentum could make as much noise they want post 2020 but if the inevitable happens and Labour get hammered, the Unions won't continue to back him, of that I have little doubt and if the Unions stop backing him, he's gone. I can't see any situation in which he is leader post the next election.

The rest of your post - lets just say I think we're in as much need of Socialist principles in this country now as we ever have been. Rising inequality, zero hours contracts, lack of housing, the old industrial working class that existed until the 1980's may not exist, but those people are still there and still at the bottom of the social ladder, they didn't miraculously all become middle class despite what the Tories would have us believe. I'm also sure your aware of the differences between Socialism and Communism so I would bother pointing that out to you.

I'm not certain about your first point. Labour may be beyond 'saving' after the 2020 (or 2017) general election. If it dips below 25% of the vote (and it's heading that way) then it could face meltdown. Secondly Corbyn may go, but McDonnell would surely step in. The Far Left have waited a long time to get control of the Labour party. They won't get a second chance and they seem to me quite willing to reduce it to a parliamentary rump in order to preserve their own hold. Even with, say, 50 to 80 MPs, these people would still have 50 to 80 more MPs than they normally have. That could be a price worth paying, as it were.

As for your second point I'm in broad agreement. Socialist "principles" do seem as relevant as ever. But that's not what I was saying. I was bemoaning the lack of socialist "economics". We are deluding ourselves if we think there is a socialist economic policy waiting in the wings which simply requires political will to be applied. I know of none; nor do you. Corbyn keeps talking about 'socialism' but he hasn't yet said what it means economically. That's not surprising. The old idea of the command economy is dead, dead, dead. And nothing's replaced it. If we on the Left cannot admit this then there is truly no hope.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2016, 10:45:13 AM »
Yorky, I don't buy that Corbyn will survive a 2020 election as leader. The likes of Momentum could make as much noise they want post 2020 but if the inevitable happens and Labour get hammered, the Unions won't continue to back him, of that I have little doubt and if the Unions stop backing him, he's gone. I can't see any situation in which he is leader post the next election.

If the Union leadership really cared about winning a GE he'd be gone now, they're more interested in conserving their power in the Party. And the likes of McCluskey (and most people at the very highest levels in TUs) don't much care for what their rank and file think anyway (which is what he hates about the PLP...).

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2016, 11:02:16 AM »
If the Union leadership really cared about winning a GE he'd be gone now, they're more interested in conserving their power in the Party. And the likes of McCluskey (and most people at the very highest levels in TUs) don't much care for what their rank and file think anyway (which is what he hates about the PLP...).

Given the Labour Party will continue to rely upon the unions for funding etc, who do think would be an acceptable candidate from the pool of  moderates ;)  that the unions would get behind?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 12:29:50 PM by Alan_X »

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2016, 11:56:57 AM »
Need to get this split or divorce sorted ASAP and then decide who gets custody of the name Labour.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2016, 12:27:06 PM »
All I can see happening is, Corbyn winning the vote and getting a large number of PLP members deselected. I'm hoping some of these form a more centrist party, maybe with a Pro European leaning, where they might be able to sweep up some of the remain votes. It'll be a mess, but it's probably for the best in the long run. We need another SDP, leaving Labour for the hard left.

There's no space for a left-of-centre pro-Remain party; it's the Lib Dems (caveats about them always shifting to the right in local government and the coalition government apply). There are (or have been) already several parties for the hard left - Respect and TUSC being the most recent to put up parliamentary candidates, with extremely limited success other than Gorgeous George.

I don't think the Labour Party can or should 'split'. If Corbyn wins again, no doubt a few Labour MPs will resign the whip and move over to the Lib Dems or the Tories. If Corbyn loses, there could be a small breakaway - though I doubt it, Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbot I think quite like being elected with the name and funding of the party behind them.

There might be a realignment - Labour shifts to the left, some members and MPs move to the Lib Dems and anchor that party more firmly in the centre left than wavering centre. But that would be a disaster for all concerned under FPTP and add to the growing list of factors favouring Tory victories.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #33 on: August 8, 2016, 03:56:54 PM »
There's no space for a left-of-centre pro-Remain party; it's the Lib Dems (caveats about them always shifting to the right in local government and the coalition government apply). There are (or have been) already several parties for the hard left - Respect and TUSC being the most recent to put up parliamentary candidates, with extremely limited success other than Gorgeous George.

I don't think the Labour Party can or should 'split'. If Corbyn wins again, no doubt a few Labour MPs will resign the whip and move over to the Lib Dems or the Tories. If Corbyn loses, there could be a small breakaway - though I doubt it, Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbot I think quite like being elected with the name and funding of the party behind them.

There might be a realignment - Labour shifts to the left, some members and MPs move to the Lib Dems and anchor that party more firmly in the centre left than wavering centre. But that would be a disaster for all concerned under FPTP and add to the growing list of factors favouring Tory victories.

Depends if the current / past/potential Labour voters personally have lines in the sand, be it Trident, Iraq, A50 push on/ease off, to name a few.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2016, 05:50:14 PM »
Really whats happened in the USA Election and the Democratic Party is the same that is happening in the Labour party.

The grass roots and members get behind their man huge crowds turn up and they "Feel the Bern" .

But the elites of the party think they know better and fix it for their person to win and it more of the same when the members want change.

The election comes and the members are so disillusioned a lot don't even vote.

And by default the other party wins.

With 100,000s of new members joining Labour they should realise there might be something going on outside their political bubble.

The Labour PLC should learn from this but they won't.

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2016, 06:32:07 PM »
The "Labour PLC" as you stupidly call it is beaten. You won. Accept it.

Over to you now. No excuses if you fail to do "a Trump".
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2016, 06:49:47 PM »
I think Labour should forget politics and the Westminster bubble and become a movement for social change!

Fuck the elites!

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2016, 07:09:47 PM »
Even as someone who hasn't voted Labour, I find the current state of the party to be very sad indeed. I am resigned to the fact that Labour will not make any meaningful progress under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. I admire him in many ways, I agree with many of his policies, however he has no leadership qualities and very little if any charisma. This is the key difference between him and Sanders for example.

I am worried that one of the two major parties in our country is jolting to the right, and the other is beached so far to the left they can't even begin to form a coherent challenge to the Tory party. The centre ground is decreasing by the day and for a number of reasons it doesn't look like it's going to be filled anytime soon.

Labour not only need a leader who can unite the party in some form - they need to kill off the myth that they can't be trusted on the economy. The Tories peddled this idea that Labour overspending caused the financial collapse in 08, and the party still haven't shed that skin.

We need a viable, electable alternative to the Tory party, and we need it fast.
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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2016, 07:36:44 PM »
The grass roots and members get behind their man huge crowds turn up and they "Feel the Bern" .

But the elites of the party think they know better and fix it for their person to win and it more of the same when the members want change.


"Fix it" - he lost by hundreds of thousands of votes in the Primary...

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Re: The Labour Party - Where to now? (*)
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2016, 07:39:53 PM »
I think Labour should forget politics and the Westminster bubble and become a movement for social change!

Fuck the elites!
Then it isn't the Labour Party.  It's no longer a political party at all.

The whole reason for political parties is too effect change through government, not to stand around going 'oh isn't this awful'.  This applies equally to the left and the right.
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