Author Topic: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline  (Read 10867 times)

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2010, 01:47:18 pm »
Fair enough, still a dodgy argument though. albeit one regularly peddled by western commentators on Asia that usually (a) want that to be the case, (b) have no evidence that it will be, and (c) have no understanding of why it won't.

You really have to spend time--a lot of time--over here to know that all bets are off when it comes to making assumptions like that. What often happens when people realize that their western preconceptions don't necessarily apply is that it blows their minds and they start coming out with phrases like "the inscrutable Orient."

I agree Tom, I've argued quite hard in these threads in the past that we should not blindly apply our western standards to China (or indeed Russia for that matter).  However I also agree with Finn Solomon that there are definite signs that the educated urban young want change and the way of the world is that what they want they will eventually get.
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Offline bakstabba

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2010, 01:49:24 pm »
Culturally they are hugely different that is true, however it is clear that the younger generation are already demanding reforms and I think it is reasonable enough to assume that those demands will not go away and will eventually have to be met - at least in part.

Its already beginning to happen a bit. There's a general feeling in China that there will be a gradual shift to some sort of democracy in the next decades (I'm from a Chinese family).
Socrates did have a habit of polarising opinion, as does Lucas. Lucas is also good at hemming opponents in and locking them into difficult situations.

Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2010, 01:52:41 pm »
I've read numerous reports of Chinese netizens uncovering corruption within the police force, demanding fair trials for political prisoners, trying to find people who mysteriously disappeared without further information.

Where did you read these reports? Where do they demand fair trials for political prisoners?

Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2010, 01:58:23 pm »
Do any of you's actually live in China?

Just spent 4 weeks there. Lived in Singapore for 5 years. Lived in Indonesia for 3 years. And spent 2 years in Hong Kong.

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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2010, 02:02:22 pm »
Good points above.  As China continues to become more prosperous then its citizens will begin to demand greater openness and freedom. China will slowly become more like a western democracy.  This is to be encouraged and is far more preferable to SS's rather bizarre view that we should throw away the rights that we have fought for centuries to achieve so that we can become more like China.

I don't think my opinion is bizzare.

What I find bizzare is the fact our immigration officers are hamstrung by silly social politics and human rights lawyers when trying to evict an illegal immigrant out of the country who has over stayed or abused his visa.

I find it bizzare people are content to live out their lives on the dole and not work or try to find work at the expense of tax payers.

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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2010, 02:03:20 pm »
Where did you read these reports? Where do they demand fair trials for political prisoners?

Fair trials? I doubt they have fair trails for political prisoners. That's the negative side to China.

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Offline bakstabba

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2010, 02:04:03 pm »
Where did you read these reports? Where do they demand fair trials for political prisoners?

There were groups of parents with their kids killed in the Sichuan earthquake in school buildings demanding answers from local governments. Obviously they were silenced, but people are beginning to demand some sort of say
Socrates did have a habit of polarising opinion, as does Lucas. Lucas is also good at hemming opponents in and locking them into difficult situations.

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2010, 02:04:55 pm »
Culturally they are hugely different that is true, however it is clear that the younger generation are already demanding reforms and I think it is reasonable enough to assume that those demands will not go away and will eventually have to be met - at least in part.

That younger generation you speak of are a minority at the moment. And they generally are found in Shanghai, Shenzen and Beijing. Every where else, its generally education up to high school level, and people living in farming communities out in rural districts and provinces who are content with the way things are but wish to have a higher income individually.

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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2010, 02:05:25 pm »
Where did you read these reports? Where do they demand fair trials for political prisoners?

On average? About once every month or so, in the Singaporean papers. And the Singaporean papers are all sanctioned by the government, who is very pro-China and does its level best to cast them in a good light all the time.

Small things, like villagers being imprisoned over a dispute with their magistrate. Uneducated farmers mostly, but the Chinese netizens are doing a lot of good in garnering public support. There was also the recent trial of a Chongqing party official who ran the town like a mob boss and was executed for corruption.

Frankly I find the idea of the Chinese seeing things differently from others interpreted as they don't want democracy and freedom as rather offensive. There are cultural differences, sure, but they're still human. They want the same things. Tank Man and all the other students in the square will inspire a new generation.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2010, 02:07:16 pm »
There were groups of parents with their kids killed in the Sichuan earthquake in school buildings demanding answers from local governments. Obviously they were silenced, but people are beginning to demand some sort of say

Most of these buildings you talk about in Sichuan Province were built years ago....why do you think old structures are now being torn down in earth quake prone provinces are replaced with better designed and stronger structured apartment buildings.

This was the worst earthquake to hit the province...its not like it happens year in, year out.

The same could be said about mount st.helens in washington state or the earth quakes in Japan....as much as we can plan for earthquakes, if they happen, they still cause loss of live and huge amount of damage.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2010, 02:10:19 pm »
Facebook is banned

I take it all back Chinese freedom is the future!
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2010, 02:11:32 pm »
I take it all back Chinese freedom is the future!

You meant chinese economic planning and social media controls? :)
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2010, 02:15:10 pm »
That younger generation you speak of are a minority at the moment.

Indeed they are, but there is a certain inevitability about that changing is their not ;)
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2010, 02:16:41 pm »
Indeed they are, but there is a certain inevitability about that changing is their not ;)

Yes, things will, I am sure change over time...the middle class is growing, as are the number of university graduates with access to the internet....as with all societies, there will, I am sure be political change.

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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2010, 02:23:52 pm »
Of course it's bizarre mate.  Just how can you consider the desire to strip away 200 years of hard won political and social progress because you have a "thing" about illegal immigrants anything other than bizarre.

Advocate changes of the law for these specific cases by all means but abandoning democracy and social provision altogether?  Seems like a bizarre over-reaction to me.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2010, 02:28:05 pm »
Of course it's bizarre mate.  Just how can you consider the desire to strip away 200 years of hard won political and social progress because you have a "thing" about illegal immigrants anything other than bizarre.

Advocate changes of the law for these specific cases by all means but abandoning democracy and social provision altogether?  Seems like a bizarre over-reaction to me.


I just believe democracy is failing. Going to war, invading countries when we shouldn't, even with a democractically elected system of government, lying about it to the tax payers, sending people like me and 50,000 other troops to fight a war for oil and forgetting 911 just disgusts me...

I am just so sick and tired of the politicians being politicians and screwing everyone over with their phoney claims for properties and tax write off's, the kick backs, etc etc...

Maybe I am just fed up and want drastic change...
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Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2010, 02:38:12 pm »
Culturally they are hugely different that is true, however it is clear that the younger generation are already demanding reforms and I think it is reasonable enough to assume that those demands will not go away and will eventually have to be met - at least in part.

Where are the younger generation demanding reforms?

Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2010, 02:40:06 pm »

I just believe democracy is failing. Going to war, invading countries when we shouldn't, even with a democractically elected system of government, lying about it to the tax payers, sending people like me and 50,000 other troops to fight a war for oil and forgetting 911 just disgusts me...

I am just so sick and tired of the politicians being politicians and screwing everyone over with their phoney claims for properties and tax write off's, the kick backs, etc etc...

Maybe I am just fed up and want drastic change...

To what?

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 02:56:35 pm by Veinticinco de Mayo »
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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2010, 03:25:37 pm »
It is already doing so, partly through progressive increases in the minimum wage by the state and has been further inflated by the chronic labour shortages in the main manufacturing areas at the moment.

I think the lesson that we can take from China is that "the market" is not necessarily the panacea for everything as neocons and the libertarian right would have us believe.  China's centrally planned economy is outperforming all other economies by a huge margin at the moment.

China enacted neoliberal reforms before the US did Kev. Its economy is very much market-orientated now, not centrally planned. In fact those market reforms were what many were protesting about in Tiananmen square.
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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2010, 03:33:30 pm »
To what?


Something similar to what the chinese government have up and running at the moment....?
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2010, 03:34:57 pm »
Wow. so radical. There are ? billion that don't  give a shit about such sites.

Oh, now I remember you. I'll be forewarned next time.
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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2010, 03:37:41 pm »
Wow. so radical. There are ? billion that don't  give a shit about such sites.

Billion who don't give a shit about such sites because they have more important things to worry about day to day...
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2010, 04:54:18 pm »
Wow. so radical. There are ? billion that don't  give a shit about such sites.

You asked for evidence. I gave you it. Stop bleating.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2010, 04:55:47 pm »
China enacted neoliberal reforms before the US did Kev. Its economy is very much market-orientated now, not centrally planned. In fact those market reforms were what many were protesting about in Tiananmen square.

They did but only to a certain extent - it is still very much a centrally planned economy, with minimum wages, taxes and tariffs, and huge amounts of goverment spending.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #66 on: September 1, 2010, 12:27:21 am »
They did but only to a certain extent - it is still very much a centrally planned economy, with minimum wages, taxes and tariffs, and huge amounts of goverment spending.

They do tax their citizens, no?
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Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #67 on: September 1, 2010, 01:20:21 am »
You asked for evidence. I gave you it. Stop bleating.

Thats not representative of the younger generation in China. Listen mate, I'm not having a dig. I live in China, have done for nearly 8 years barring holidays back home. Me Mrs is Chinese and me kid born there. I speak the language and work with Chinese youth on a daily basis, they arn't demanding reform, they generally look down on sites like you mentioned as treacherous. This entire thread is actually full of very naive posts concerning China. I don't claim to be able to represent Chinese opinion here (I often think I've got my head round their culture then something happens to make me realise I haven't). There are also huge regional differences. However I'm sure my grasp on the Chinese mentality generally is far closer to reality than whats being stated in this thread on all the issues raised.


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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #68 on: September 1, 2010, 01:25:57 am »
S-S's posts reminded me a lot of this article:  http://dyneslines.blogspot.com/2009/09/political-pilgrims.html

Got to agree with VdM here, at least I think so.  I got the impression he was saying that most the progress made in China is do to China liberalizing its chokehold on the economy, and allowing the market to work in some areas.  However, there is still a messload of central planning going on (inferring that it is bad no? or at least THAT level of central planning)

I am really not that big a fan of Hayek, he made a whole bunch of apologies for the state, but he was excellent at completely dismantling the idea that central planning could produce better outcomes (and won a Nobel prize for it (although on 2nd thought, maybe that isn't really a big deal (well it is a big deal considering he is an Austrian).  Even most Marxists/Communists have abandoned that idea, and have instead switched their tune to 'well central planning leads to a more equal distribution' or protects the environment better or something like that (which I would also take issue with, but that is for another time)
« Last Edit: September 1, 2010, 02:20:55 am by JoeTwerp »

Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #69 on: September 1, 2010, 02:56:59 am »
Having just been out to China, the words "shocked" beyond belief come to mind.


Impressed by the flashing lights were you? It's a rotten shithole mate, and every Chinese person I know would get out if they could.

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #70 on: September 1, 2010, 02:59:50 am »

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #71 on: September 1, 2010, 03:06:36 am »
Thats not representative of the younger generation in China. Listen mate, I'm not having a dig. I live in China, have done for nearly 8 years barring holidays back home. Me Mrs is Chinese and me kid born there. I speak the language and work with Chinese youth on a daily basis, they arn't demanding reform, they generally look down on sites like you mentioned as treacherous. This entire thread is actually full of very naive posts concerning China. I don't claim to be able to represent Chinese opinion here (I often think I've got my head round their culture then something happens to make me realise I haven't). There are also huge regional differences. However I'm sure my grasp on the Chinese mentality generally is far closer to reality than whats being stated in this thread on all the issues raised.




My point of view is naive?
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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #72 on: September 1, 2010, 03:10:06 am »
Impressed by the flashing lights were you? It's a rotten shithole mate, and every Chinese person I know would get out if they could.

No. My comment was based on the fact that Beijing, Shenzen and Shanghai would easily outdo London, Paris and Amsterdam as modern cities...and the fact the chinese economy is a hell of a lot bigger than what I expected it to be.

I also made the effort to head out West to the Xinjiang province to see the OTHER side of China...Urumqi, Turfan, Kashgar, Yarkland, Hotan and then made my way back to Xian...so I had a good look at the other side of China, most tourist don't get to see before shaping my comments.

I have been in and out of Asia for well over 15 years..Singapore, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Bangkok....all are making big strides forward as the center of economy globally for the future....

And I realized why, there is some truth to the comments some experts have made that times are a-changing..and europe and the america's will no longer be THE super powers of the world...in times to come...Asia will...and they will be dictating politics in the future...global politics...

Which is why, if I did ever retire, I would choose Bangkok, Singapore or Shanghai as a place I would live in...ANYDAY, over paris, new york, london or any european city...
« Last Edit: September 1, 2010, 03:12:46 am by Somebody-Special »
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Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #73 on: September 1, 2010, 03:38:31 am »

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #74 on: September 1, 2010, 03:39:58 am »
This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #75 on: September 1, 2010, 04:00:06 am »
No. My comment was based on the fact that Beijing, Shenzen and Shanghai would easily outdo London, Paris and Amsterdam as modern cities...and the fact the chinese economy is a hell of a lot bigger than what I expected it to be...

Apologetics mate. You should join the party. Come here if you want, don't need anything to retire apart from a few bob, there are useless foreigners all over (not saying you are). Hope you dont get ill though, you'll pay through the nose and be gagging to get back to good old Britain to get some NHS. The Chinese pay taxes so some fat c*nts can sit on there arses in Beijing and keep this shit going. Loads of British dieing to get out and come to China are ther? I can see them queueing up for ther visas.

I live in Guangzhou (near shenzhen), you forgot Guangzhou mate. Shenzhen is a fucking shithole, poluted to fuck and full of disposessed vagabonds and phoney foreign English teachers, that can't get a job back home.

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #76 on: September 1, 2010, 04:04:16 am »
Apologetics mate. You should join the party. Come here if you want, don't need anything to retire apart from a few bob, there are useless foreigners all over (not saying you are). Hope you dont get ill though, you'll pay through the nose and be gagging to get back to good old Britain to get some NHS. The Chinese pay taxes so some fat c*nts can sit on there arses in Beijing and keep this shit going. Loads of British dieing to get out and come to China are ther? I can see them queueing up for ther visas.

I live in Guangzhou (near shenzhen), you forgot Guangzhou mate. Shenzhen is a fucking shithole, poluted to fuck and full of disposessed vagabonds and phoney foreign English teachers, that can't get a job back home.


I don't disagree with you. But I would sooner live in asia than back in the UK...and with a decent insurance policy out here, the NHS is over rated at best...

:)

Also agree on the english teacher's bit...seems like every gui-lo is a teacher...
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Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #77 on: September 1, 2010, 04:18:47 am »

I don't disagree with you. But I would sooner live in asia than back in the UK...and with a decent insurance policy out here, the NHS is over rated at best...

:)

Also agree on the english teacher's bit...seems like every gui-lo is a teacher...

Dont think the NHS is overrated mate, underated after being here so long, verging on medical paradise, practically free as well (Sikco is right in an odd way, confuses the fuck out of the Chinese when they watch that - tax = health care - Uhhh, its called socialism, Uhhh. I used to moan all the time back home, not now though. Most foreigners here are either 'teachers'? or describe themselves as 'a buisnessman.' Can't fucking wait to get back home, me Mrs too

Offline Dewey Finn

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #78 on: September 1, 2010, 05:08:48 am »
Siouxsie said it better,

Harmful elements in the air
symbols crashing everywhere
Reaps the fields of rice and reeds
while the population feeds
Junk floats on polluted water
an old custom to sell your daughter
Would you like number 23?
Leave your yens on the counter please
Hong Kong Garden

Tourists swarm to see your face
Confuscius has a puzzling grace
Disorientated you enter in
unleashing scent of wild jasmine

Slanted eyes meet a new sunrise
a race of bodies small in size
Chicken Chow Mein and Chop Suey
Hong Kong Garden takeaway
Hong Kong Garden

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM1ODMyMDA=.html

Offline Mad Men

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Re: The China Express Train and how Europe is in decline
« Reply #79 on: September 1, 2010, 05:42:37 am »
Souxie and the banshie didn't work for me mate..lol...Hong Kong and China are better than all that...
This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc