Author Topic: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins  (Read 320653 times)

Offline liverbnz

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Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« on: November 15, 2011, 04:22:11 pm »
So, according to Derek Llambias, the Newcastle managing director, Andy Carroll is worth ‘fuck all’. Of course, having bragged of turning down a bid of £30m, at which point Liverpool could easily have walked away, they must have had some sense of his value, but that’s by the by. Either way, at £35m, Andy Carroll remains a news story. Welcome to the goldfish bowl.

The price tag won’t go away, and perhaps that’s the Geordie’s biggest handicap. People expect a lot, and expect it immediately.

Recently I’ve been trying to think back about notable target-men – their goalscoring records and their ability to bully defences – and how long it took them to develop their game. The evidence (which I will come to) suggests that, actually, Carroll – at just 22 – is very well developed in relation to other players of his ilk. That doesn’t mean he’ll go on to prove a smash-hit sensation – potential of all shapes and sizes has sped down the drain – but people often make the mistake of not taking the type of player into account when looking at age.

I’ve always felt that smaller, quicker strikers peak young, and slower, bigger strikers peak later. This is a general rule, and there will of course be exceptions. As a rough guide, I feel that it has a lot of merits.

Pace can get forwards into goalscoring chances, so an average 17-year-old with jet-heels can beat even the best defenders now and then; but without pace, a striker needs to rely on movement, cunning, positioning; and as with the arts of the centre-back, these are skills honed with time and experience. Centre-backs peak after their mid-20s, and I believe the target-man does, too.

When previously considering this, I tended to think of slower strikers as the type who dropped deeper and looked for openings; the clever no.10, who played the passes for the nippy no.9 to run onto. But what about the ‘old-fashioned’ no.9? (Which, in itself, is a term that does players like Carroll no favours; a nod to the old days of English football when, it seems, every forward was a giant.)

As hard as I’ve tried, I’m yet to discover any target-men who were at their best – or at least, already highly prolific – in their teens; I can’t find the target-man ‘major league’ equivalents of Michael Owen, Robbie Fowler, Nicolas Anelka, Fernando Torres, Lionel Messi, Kun Aguero and Wayne Rooney, who were probably capable of 20 goals a season in the strongest divisions by the age of 18. Maybe they exist, and I’ve just overlooked them, but they don’t leap as readily to mind.

But more on that a little later.

Target Style

Andy Carroll isn’t as slow as people make out, but he doesn’t have that extra change of pace to get away from defenders, and obviously, when up against sprinters for centre-backs, he can look laboured. He has good technical ability, in terms of lay-offs and hold-up play, and has a sweetness in his left-foot that many strikers of any size would envy. However, although it can be coached, his movement off the ball isn’t yet that great.

His status as a ‘traditional’ no.9 is based on his size and aerial ability, although at Liverpool his heading has been fairly wayward; to me, evidence of a lack of confidence, given the way he frequently rose to meet crosses with towering headers at Newcastle. Again, this sense of unease with his own game is down to developing gradually within a familiar environment, with low expectations, then dramatically yanked out of his comfort zone and suddenly expected to play like a ‘£35m player’. It takes time to develop, and it often takes time to adjust to a new club.

I actually think that Carroll is starting to come of age for the Reds away from home; it gives him the chance to hold the ball up for Suarez and the midfield support, and it also means that he’s not facing the kind of packed defences he encounters at Anfield, where it’s more likely he’ll be crowded out. His understanding with Luis Suarez has blossomed in away games in particular, and overall – and somewhat counterintuitively – Carroll has played just behind his strike partner in most of their games together.

With five goals in 21 matches for the Reds (albeit just 14 starts), he’s doing okay. This season, all three of his goals have come on the road, and none has been headed. Part of the problem has been his team-mates too frequently hitting long balls in his direction, to the point where Liverpool have probably played its best football in his absence; however, there have been plenty of games where the ball was kept on the deck with the big no.9 in the side, and also some poor performances when he’s been absent.

Although the Kop support him, I sense that he hasn’t had quite the goodwill afforded to Peter Crouch, even though it took the gangly £7m striker 19 games to finally find the net for the then-reigning European champions.

Had Carroll cost £7m, he’d be viewed more favourably on his performances thus far. Fees clearly affect perceptions (as well as the player’s own game). But if everyone can just get past the price tag, and view him as a component of the team, rather than a costly individual, he might stand a chance.

You can always argue that such a fee could have been better spent, but with Suarez, Enrique and Bellamy all bargains, you can’t win ‘em all; some signings will seem cheap at twice the price, others expensive – it’s the way it goes. The key is now coaxing the best out of the big no.9, rather than obsessing with what he’s not (i.e. Kun Aguero. Or, indeed, Luis Suarez…).

Most importantly, given Carroll’s age, and the type of player he is, if comparisons are to be made, they need to be like with like. Observers need to appreciate the longer learning curve of the target-man.

Perhaps this type of player is rarely viewed as world-class – unless they have pace, they find it hard to be consistently devastating – but many have proven increasingly prolific (even pretty mediocre versions, like Kevin Davies), on top of the focal point/spearhead qualities they bring.

Compare and Contrast

No two players are identical; therefore comparisons can always be criticised. In thinking of a whole host of target-men over the past 20 years or so (mostly in England, but also further afield), I realised that some were quicker than others, and that there was a wide range of heights, even though I set the minimum at 6ft; the maximum topped 6’8”.

I wanted to do my best to avoid comparing apples with oranges; all the while accepting that, given differences within the different striking genres, I may have to compare apples with pears, and oranges with clementines. Once I’d worked out how the traditional no.9s performed I could then look at the differences in trends between target-men and the generally smaller, more mobile variety of forward: only then comparing the apple and the orange.

I looked only at performance in the top divisions main five European leagues (England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy), and only compared goalscoring records in league games; to exclude games against substandard opposition, either in weaker leagues or in cup ties where strikers can fill their boots. (Target-men obviously do much more than score goals, but it’s the most obvious comparison that gets made; and assist and chance creation data goes back only so far.)

Given the nature of this site, I tried to include as many Liverpool players as possible, but the list mostly comprises non-LFC players. Obviously the players I looked at have been in teams of varying quality; some good, some bad, some great, some woeful, and so on. So again, it makes comparisons difficult, but I’ll try all the same.

Exceptionally quick and/or skilful tall strikers like Zlatan Ibrahimovich and Thierry Henry were excluded, as they could just as easily fit into the ‘oranges’ category I wanted to later compare against. I also excluded target-men who’d started as wingers (such as Emile Heskey), as it’s harder to say when they became a target-man.

In total I looked at 23 ‘target-men’, and 11 strikers who relied more on a combination of pace, skill and finishing than aerial challenges and hold-up play. All names (beyond those with an LFC connection) were chosen randomly and without bias – the ones that sprung to mind, and the suggestions other people made to me.

(Some further names – and good ones at that – were mentioned to me after I’d crunched the data, but maybe I can go back and expand it at a later date. I’ll mention some of those names at the end of this piece, but they are not included in the overall averages.)

Overall, the target-men in the mini-study average 97 top-league, top division goals apiece, at 8.8 per season. The mobile goalscorers average 130 goals each, at 10.7 per season.

All About Age

Only three of the 23 target-men I studied made their league debut as early as 17, and Carroll was one of them. Three more made their debut at 18, but the overall average for playing their first game in a major league top division worked out at 21. Clearly, as suspected, target-man is not a young man’s game; by contrast, the average of the 11 smaller/quicker strikers is just 18, with three of that category making their first league appearance at just 16.

(In calculating age, I worked out how old the players were at the start of each season.)

Out of the 23, only two had managed double-figures in a qualifying league before the age of 20; with 13 the highest amount registered. However, eight of the 11 smaller/quicker strikers had reached double-figures at the age of 19, four of whom exceeded 17 league goals in a season.

In total, 15 of the 23 ‘apples’ had their best season (or best season to date) aged 25 or over, whereas six of the 11 ‘oranges’ had their best season aged 23 or younger (only two of the 11 peaked after 25). Above all else in the study, this, to me, is the most revealing stat. Whatever the relative merits of the different kinds of players, that seems highly pertinent.

Of course, Carroll, at just 22, is still some way off his mid-20s, and Edin Dzeko is 25 right now; therefore neither are applicable here when it comes to peaking after 25. So in essence it’s 15 out of 21 who peaked aged 25 or over. In other words, three out of every four target-men will have his best season in his mid-20s or later. (Going back further, I just checked John Toshack’s stats: slow start after joining Liverpool aged 21, and his best season aged 26, in 1976.)

Excluding Carroll and Dzeko, two of the three remaining strikers to have experienced their best season when under 25 – Emmanuel Adebayor and Peter Crouch (both 23 at the time) – are still playing, and quite conceivably yet to have their best season (though this seems less likely with Crouch, now that he’s 30 and not at a big club).

Eight of the 21 had their best season aged 28 or over, and three of those had their best-ever season in their 30s. Only Fernando Morientes peaked young, with his best season aged 22, although he had some highly effective seasons up until the point he joined Liverpool in his late 20s. For Andy Carroll to have managed 13 league goals in a single season at the age of 21, having moved clubs halfway through – and moving clubs has hampered many on the list for a year or two – and missed a large chunk of the campaign, is highly impressive; look below at how few other target-men were posting similar figures in a tough division by that age.


(Click to view full size. Where players have two or more best seasons, the one with the fewest games played is counted.)

The overall average age for best season for target-men is 26.4, with it standing at 25.7 for players still active in the relevant leagues, and 26.5 for those who have either retired or moved to less-competitive environs. Compare this with the average age of 23.4 for the peaking of the 11 non-target-man strikers, and again, it suggests that although they may not burn as bright to start with, they come into their own later in their careers.

None of this means that Carroll will develop into the kind of striker he has the potential to become; the no.9 Rio Ferdinand felt could be ‘unplayable’. But it does go to show that even though he’s not the finished article, he’s arguably ahead of many of the great names we now look back on as masters of the art at the same stage of their careers.

(Target-men not included: Gabriel Batistuta, major league debut at 22, best season aged 25; Les Ferdinand, major league debut at 20, best season 25. Smaller strikers overlooked: Ian Wright, debut 22, best season 29; Kevin Phillips, debut 27, best season 27; Kun Aguero, debut 18, best season 22. Alessandro Del Piero, Serie A debut 19, best season 23.)

Further analysis of the target-men in the study follows, for Subscribers only.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/11/andy-carroll-prime-target/

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Offline reddybear

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 04:50:54 pm »
its an interesting piece this, thanks for sharing.

i think we all expect Carroll to go on and get more than 13 goals a season in a couple of years, so that makes sense.  I disagree with the comment that Carroll is 'ahead' of the other target men he studied.  He had a great season for a young striker, but stats can only take you so far.  His technique isn't comparable to many of the others mentioned for starters, and I'm not sure if he's got the attitude to continually improve.  Time will tell, but if the conclusion of the article is that because Carroll got 13 goals when he was 21 he's going to be awesome in a few years - well i think that is a bit of a leap.

Still, a good read.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 05:08:45 pm »
Carroll will come good that is for certain, we just need to be patient with the lad and give him all the ecouragement we can. Then he will become a prolific goal scorer
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 05:09:35 pm »
Interesting article, looking at Roque Santa Cruz stats is quite funny - that one big season at Blackburn was obviously enough for Mark fucking Hughes to think he was worth spending 20 million on at Man City.

only scored in one of Betis' 8 games this season too, to think people wanted us to sign him for big money too, shocking.
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Offline astowell1

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 05:12:23 pm »
Carroll will come good that is for certain, we just need to be patient with the lad and give him all the ecouragement we can. Then he will become a prolific goal scorer

Am afraid I don't agree.  Yeah we need to be patient and yes he will play a good role in the team but I have seen nothing to show that he can be a consistent/frequent goal scorer for us.

Offline scared_person

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 05:12:46 pm »
As usual Tomkins puts the knee jerkers back in their place.

AC is progressing very well for his age. I also agree that he looks more dangerous away from home, which is something we need given our awful away record over the last few years!

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:10 pm »
I can't really understand the logic of categorizing six foot plus Anelka and Torres as small strikers just because they had early success, for me it is just distorting the stats to suit the point that was trying to be made.

I think it's pretty clear that Carroll has the potential to improve and that the best years of his career may well be ahead of him. That doesn't really address the issue of why we paid a fee normally associated with the finished article for a player who so far has merely demonstrated potential.

If you look at that list to me it demonstrates that the time to buy a target man is when he has demonstrated that he is the real deal but is still somewhat under the Radar. For me Andy fitted neither of those categories. Either buy cheap potential or the real deal.
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Offline scared_person

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 05:15:26 pm »
I think it's pretty clear that Carroll has the potential to improve and that the best years of his career may well be ahead of him. That doesn't really address the issue of why we paid a fee normally associated with the finished article for a player who so far has merely demonstrated potential.

Its not trying to. The article is merely pointing out that different players, and different kinds of players develop at different rates.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 05:23:05 pm »
I can't really understand the logic of categorizing six foot plus Anelka and Torres as small strikers just because they had early success, for me it is just distorting the stats to suit the point that was trying to be made.

I think it's pretty clear that Carroll has the potential to improve and that the best years of his career may well be ahead of him. That doesn't really address the issue of why we paid a fee normally associated with the finished article for a player who so far has merely demonstrated potential.

If you look at that list to me it demonstrates that the time to buy a target man is when he has demonstrated that he is the real deal but is still somewhat under the Radar. For me Andy fitted neither of those categories. Either buy cheap potential or the real deal.

But Anelka and Torres aren't really your targetman kind of strikers. They are strikers who run the channels or play on the shoulder of the last defender.
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Offline Carlito Roberto

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 05:23:26 pm »
It's a good article, but the notion that Target Men of Carroll's age don't start scoring regularly until later in their career's is a little fanciful. Those stats are a bit misleading - unless born in the summer, most players will be two different ages over the course of a season. The article would carry more credence if it was done on a season by season basis and not when a player's birthday happens to fall.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 05:23:47 pm »
Its not trying to. The article is merely pointing out that different players, and different kinds of players develop at different rates.

Yet doesn't demonstrate players who didn't develop any further at all.

I'm not suggesting that Andy won't develop further, rather outlining the fact the statisical analysis is flawed as his selection of examples are of players who achieved some success in their respective careers.

Nobody can guarantee Andy will develop into a top player, neither can anybody say he won't. We require patience and Andy time to see what happens. However what i feel we have learned is that at the moment we need a more consistent striker to partner Suarez while Andy learns his trade.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 05:26:12 pm »
Another good read by Paul tompkins there, sadly the gutter press in the uk and especially the sothern based "Meedja" see is the price tag on the lads head, making a perfectly good point like we bought torres for 22m ? and sold him for 50 after having a few good years from the lad is also quite casually forgotten all they WANT to see is the headline grabbing price tag.  Will big andy come good ? I'll bet my left testicle on it !

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 05:26:28 pm »
why am i not surprised the 6ft 3 inch michael ricketts didn't make it into the study?  ah yes, doesn't prove the point being made...  lies, lies, lies and statistics

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 05:30:33 pm »
Are the table-cells just "goals scored", rather than (eg) "goals scored per minute played"? Wouldn't the latter be massively more useful?

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 05:31:24 pm »
Its not trying to. The article is merely pointing out that different players, and different kinds of players develop at different rates.

exactly, and to be patient with our players, Big Andy especially, in time he will come clean, I still expect him to score in double digits come May.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 05:36:03 pm »
I cant understand why Shearer hasn't been included.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 05:37:10 pm »
Interesting piece. Thanks for posting.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 05:41:24 pm »
I still think he's the worst buy we have ever made.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 05:46:01 pm »
I cant understand why Shearer hasn't been included.
Probably because he was scoring regularly from the age of 21.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 05:46:15 pm »
I still think he's the worst buy we have ever made.

Yep , thats a conclusion you can come to this early is'nt it? Think of all the poor players who have played for us over the years.

Offline babraham

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2011, 05:48:49 pm »
I can't really understand the logic of categorizing six foot plus Anelka and Torres as small strikers just because they had early success, for me it is just distorting the stats to suit the point that was trying to be made.

I think it's pretty clear that Carroll has the potential to improve and that the best years of his career may well be ahead of him. That doesn't really address the issue of why we paid a fee normally associated with the finished article for a player who so far has merely demonstrated potential.

If you look at that list to me it demonstrates that the time to buy a target man is when he has demonstrated that he is the real deal but is still somewhat under the Radar. For me Andy fitted neither of those categories. Either buy cheap potential or the real deal.
Anelka and Torres aren't catagorised as small because of their early success. They're catagorised as small because of their pace. The article is arguing that it's because of this pace that they and their fellow fast strikers achieved early success whilst the slower ones took time to learn how to be effective without the advantage of pace.

Without context I would agree that for 35m you can't be buying potential however the case of Andy Carroll's price tag is very much due to context. As I'm sure you know, Newcastle had us by the balls. Nando dropped a bombshell on us on deadline day and reportedly we had offers for Gomez and Llorente turned down. We were fleeced but so would anyone else who was in our position. It makes me feel better that we fleeced Chelsea just as much, if not more and from a position of little power.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2011, 05:49:40 pm »
It's an impressive study and there is no doubt Carroll can improve. If he can get back to last season's level, that too will be a big benefit to the team, so perhaps it's not too far off. Overall though, I believe Al 555 has summed it up the best when we think about big transfers, in particular for a club which is trying to catch up:

Either buy cheap potential or the real deal.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 05:54:33 pm »
Anelka and Torres aren't catagorised as small because of their early success. They're catagorised as small because of their pace. The article is arguing that it's because of this pace that they and their fellow fast strikers achieved early success whilst the slower ones took time to learn how to be effective without the advantage of pace.

Without context I would agree that for 35m you can't be buying potential however the case of Andy Carroll's price tag is very much due to context. As I'm sure you know, Newcastle had us by the balls. Nando dropped a bombshell on us on deadline day and reportedly we had offers for Gomez and Llorente turned down. We were fleeced but so would anyone else who was in our position. It makes me feel better that we fleeced Chelsea just as much, if not more and from a position of little power.

Nano didn't drop a bombshell, we knew for a fair bit he wanted out.

Respected itk on here where telling us for days how Kenny had him at Melwood begging him to stay. We were robbed for Carroll, even if someone gives you £50 million for a player that's then your £50 million and it doesn't justify wasting it.

I hope he comes good.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 05:57:57 pm »
That's an epic blog. Fair play as it must have taken ages and it's really interesting

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 06:30:19 pm »
It's an impressive study and there is no doubt Carroll can improve. If he can get back to last season's level, that too will be a big benefit to the team, so perhaps it's not too far off. Overall though, I believe Al 555 has summed it up the best when we think about big transfers, in particular for a club which is trying to catch up:

Whats the real deal? Torres for £50m? Veron for £35m? Nothing in football is guaranteed

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 06:58:48 pm »
Nano didn't drop a bombshell, we knew for a fair bit he wanted out.

Respected itk on here where telling us for days how Kenny had him at Melwood begging him to stay. We were robbed for Carroll, even if someone gives you £50 million for a player that's then your £50 million and it doesn't justify wasting it.

I hope he comes good.

It´s such a pity that it went that way, especially as it seems that pretty much everybody involved is regreting by now except the Newcastle owner...

Indeed we were robbed and it amazes me that the owners were willing to spend this amount of money just to make an impression. Good for us...
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Lenin.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 06:59:18 pm »
I still think he's the worst buy we have ever made.
He could turn out to be that. Or he could turn out to be one of our greatest No 9s ever. He has time on his side.
Dont forget Berbatov cost £35 million and he has been on the bench most of the time he has been at the mancs.  ;)
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 07:07:52 pm »
Of course Andy Carroll has the potential to become a good striker. But that´s not the question, the question is if he fits to the way the manager and coaches keep on insisting us to play... pass and move.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 07:09:28 pm »
People seem to be missing the whole point of Tomkins article. He isn't saying it proves Carroll will be a big hit, he is saying here are a list of players who were doing no better than Andy are right now who went on to be great players. He isn't saying these numbers prove Andy was a good buy, it is just pointing out writing him off at 22 is a mistake, because he is doing exactly what other players of his ilk do.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 07:10:25 pm »
Anelka and Torres aren't catagorised as small because of their early success. They're catagorised as small because of their pace. The article is arguing that it's because of this pace that they and their fellow fast strikers achieved early success whilst the slower ones took time to learn how to be effective without the advantage of pace.



The problem though is that Strikers do not have to be one or the other the truly great Strikers are often both.

Anelka, Torres and the Brazilian Ronaldo were all big Strikers who were all quick.  To me it seems as if Paul is cherrypickimg players that fit with what he was trying to say.

I would say Shearer and Heskey are examples of big Strikers who were better earlier in their careers or the fella Carroll reminds me off Duncan Ferguson.


« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:16:18 pm by Al 555 »
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2011, 07:11:14 pm »
I still think he's the worst buy we have ever made.

You clearly don't remember last season's 'Danish Enforcer' in midfield

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2011, 07:14:54 pm »
Typical Tomkins article where he's skews the facts, and throws in a load of meaningless stats, to support the point of his article. Comparing Carroll to Berbatov and Drogba just because the latter two are tall is stupid, because he plays nothing them. He might as well throw Marco Van Basten is there as well given than MVB was 6'2 and describe him as a 'target man'. Pointless also trying to compare to Nial Quinn for example, who was one dimensional, and basically shit as football (though fantastically generous re his own testimonial proceeds).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:17:27 pm by Elysian Fields »

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2011, 07:16:57 pm »
People seem to be missing the whole point of Tomkins article. He isn't saying it proves Carroll will be a big hit, he is saying here are a list of players who were doing no better than Andy are right now who went on to be great players. He isn't saying these numbers prove Andy was a good buy, it is just pointing out writing him off at 22 is a mistake, because he is doing exactly what other players of his ilk do.

He also isn´t saying if he fits to our system which is the main point. Does the signing makes sense from a pure football point of view?

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:20:15 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2011, 07:38:37 pm »
You clearly don't remember last season's 'Danish Enforcer' in midfield

Both rubbish mate, but one cost £35 million.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2011, 07:43:33 pm »
Am afraid I don't agree.  Yeah we need to be patient and yes he will play a good role in the team but I have seen nothing to show that he can be a consistent/frequent goal scorer for us.


Don´t be afraid old chap and it really doesn´t matter if you don´t agree because it will all come to pass and Andrew will be hailed by all and sundry.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2011, 07:48:54 pm »
Both rubbish mate, but one cost £35 million.

Cost Roman £35 million, and unlike Poulsen, Andy's 22 at the start of his career. I'll support him, like I do any Liverpool player when they step onto the pitch to play for our club.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2011, 07:55:25 pm »
I cant understand why Shearer hasn't been included.

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2011, 07:55:50 pm »
Carroll will come good that is for certain, we just need to be patient with the lad and give him all the ecouragement we can. Then he will become a prolific goal scorer

Agree with Vic, really is too early to be slagging the lad off, my opinion is his price tag is weighing heavily at the moment and he's isn't quite sure what is required of him but he'll come good, too many making snap judgements because he hasn't set the world alight, as well as being the target man this lad can play abit.
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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2011, 08:00:05 pm »
Cost Roman £35 million, and unlike Poulsen, Andy's 22 at the start of his career. I'll support him, like I do any Liverpool player when they step onto the pitch to play for our club.

What a stupid myth this is to justify us pissing money up against the wall. Pretty much like the myth that we never paid a ridiculous fee for Glenn Jonston cause Portsmouth owed us a few bob.

He cost us mate, once Roman give us the money that is then our money, we blew it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:34:23 pm by KennyDaggers »

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Re: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 08:03:02 pm »
Great article ... Derek Llambias is a fanny ;)
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