Author Topic: Are we punching above our weight?  (Read 20144 times)

Offline RK7

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #160 on: April 25, 2017, 09:47:34 pm »
Indeed. It was a mistake but we needed more cover for those players. I am not talking about 7 or 8, but 4 or 5 more. There is no way we have enough good options. For example, Coutinho and Mane are our only wingers, one of them get injured and you need to move your number 1 striker.

Was rotation or lack of a problem? Coutinho and Mane got injured by awkward falls and challenges. Lallana gets injured twice playing for England. Henderson has only played 27 games in all competitions. He has hardly been flogged here.

If we need 4 or 5 just to compete in the league then we'll need more if in Europe as well by that logic.

Lack of balance was an issue, I was one of only a few who said this before the season begun.

Just because a player gets injured with England, that doesn't mean its not a consequence of too much football. I've already said Henderson is injury prone, he's our captain and we know he can't be relied on to play most games.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #161 on: April 25, 2017, 10:11:47 pm »
If we need 4 or 5 just to compete in the league then we'll need more if in Europe as well by that logic.

Lack of balance was an issue, I was one of only a few who said this before the season begun.

Just because a player gets injured with England, that doesn't mean its not a consequence of too much football. I've already said Henderson is injury prone, he's our captain and we know he can't be relied on to play most games.

Lallana got injured twice playing for England. The second time he got injured was because England played him twice in a row, 90 minutes within 3 or 4 days. What do we do then? Rest him so that if England overplay him we account for that?

Lallana, Henderson are injury prone. Fair enough. But Coutinho gets almost 2 months out and Mane is out now for the rest of the season and won't have clocked 30 appearances for us. These players haven't played loads.

Also, surely if you are saying we should have rotated more then we need more players to rotate with? Or are you saying the youngsters are good enough to rotate with?

If you are saying we don't need any more players then I can only deduce that you are saying we sell all the players that pick up injuries and replace them with players who never get injured. So that means showing the door to Henderson, Matip, Lovren, Lallana, Coutinho.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2017, 10:25:37 pm »
We overplayed them during our rampant spell.

Amount of times we were 2/3 goals to the good but didn't bring anyone on
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline RK7

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #163 on: April 25, 2017, 10:27:43 pm »
Lallana got injured twice playing for England. The second time he got injured was because England played him twice in a row, 90 minutes within 3 or 4 days. What do we do then? Rest him so that if England overplay him we account for that?

Lallana, Henderson are injury prone. Fair enough. But Coutinho gets almost 2 months out and Mane is out now for the rest of the season and won't have clocked 30 appearances for us. These players haven't played loads.

Also, surely if you are saying we should have rotated more then we need more players to rotate with? Or are you saying the youngsters are good enough to rotate with?

If you are saying we don't need any more players then I can only deduce that you are saying we sell all the players that pick up injuries and replace them with players who never get injured. So that means showing the door to Henderson, Matip, Lovren, Lallana, Coutinho.

We had situations in games where we were leading, the game was won, this is when we could have rested players. I'm not talking about just those that have been or are currently injured, the likes of Milner,  Clyne, Firmino are now showing signs of fatigue. They have played a lot of minutes in a demanding system.

I'm saying we do need to replace the 2 lads out on loan, the 3 or 4 players Klopp doesn't want to use/trust and 2 or 3 of the injury prone players yes.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #164 on: April 25, 2017, 10:36:20 pm »
We overplayed them during our rampant spell.

Amount of times we were 2/3 goals to the good but didn't bring anyone on

I saw a stat that Costa, Hazard and Kante have had more appearances and more minutes per average 90 than Firmino, Coutinho, Mane and Henderson.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #165 on: April 25, 2017, 10:39:35 pm »
I saw a stat that Costa, Hazard and Kante have had more appearances and more minutes per average 90 than Firmino, Coutinho, Mane and Henderson.

Probably have but they don't play the same system.

I was whinging a fair bit at the time when we're strolling games but the likes of Sturridge, Origi, Can and Moreno at the time weren't getting on.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #166 on: April 25, 2017, 10:44:48 pm »
Probably have but they don't play the same system.

I was whinging a fair bit at the time when we're strolling games but the likes of Sturridge, Origi, Can and Moreno at the time weren't getting on.

Yes I know as we clearly sprint a lot more so are exerting more. But at the same time our possession stats are brilliant so its not like we are busting a gut through the whole game. I think the overplaying thing is overblown, especially when you consider the way that the likes of Coutinho and Mane have got injured. Also the problems of Lovren and Henderson pre-date Klopp.

Sturridge has managed 15 Premier League appearances even with his injuries. Origi and Can have also played plenty of games. Moreno hasn't but he clearly doesn't trust him at all.

Offline RK7

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #167 on: April 25, 2017, 10:52:29 pm »
Probably have but they don't play the same system.

I was whinging a fair bit at the time when we're strolling games but the likes of Sturridge, Origi, Can and Moreno at the time weren't getting on.

Yep, we top the table again for most distance covered in games Eventually that will catch up with you if you don't make better use of subs.

Offline PeterTheRed ...

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #168 on: April 26, 2017, 11:09:01 pm »
When we came in the CL, we never signed any superstar players. This club won't move for players of the top ilk.

And you will have to learn to live with that. Of course, we would all like to see LFC pursuing the likes of Griezmann or Dybala this summer, but it is not going to happen. And as the Mancs' world record signings proves, spending a fortune on a single player guarantees nothing.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #169 on: April 26, 2017, 11:22:49 pm »
I saw a stat that Costa, Hazard and Kante have had more appearances and more minutes per average 90 than Firmino, Coutinho, Mane and Henderson.

It's the load on them during the minutes played that is relevant.

The physical load of say 20 minutes within a structure in your own third, without the ball, just adjusting to the opponent, is very different to 20 minutes 40 yards further, sprinting to press, twisting, turning and then having to make long recovery sprints if the press is bypassed.

I spent a game earlier in the season trying to watch Mane specifically and the load on him was insane due to his task in the setup, he was practically sturridge's support striker, then making lung busting runs to press them out wide and fall back into shape deep down the right when they attacked, before doing it all over again and again.

The physical load is also relevant when it comes to seemingly impact injuries, mental tiredness is going to lead to more missteps, slower reaction times, slower to get your body into position etc. This season I haven't been able to watch us exhaustively, so refrained from comment on a lot of things; what I've seen though, Klopp's got some reassessing to do on his tactics and conditioning work.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #170 on: April 26, 2017, 11:37:39 pm »
And you will have to learn to live with that. Of course, we would all like to see LFC pursuing the likes of Griezmann or Dybala this summer, but it is not going to happen. And as the Mancs' world record signings proves, spending a fortune on a single player guarantees nothing.


Indeed. I dont think we can get the level below that. Maybe the the third tier of players.

Offline PeterTheRed ...

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #171 on: April 26, 2017, 11:52:26 pm »
Indeed. I dont think we can get the level below that. Maybe the the third tier of players.

We are already getting players a level below superstars. Firmino and Mane are the latest examples of that.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #172 on: April 26, 2017, 11:59:00 pm »
We are already getting players a level below superstars. Firmino and Mane are the latest examples of that.

Firmino and Mane elevated themselves to that 2nd tier after signing for us. There are lots of good players out there we can get and we have signed good player but players wanted desperately by top clubs we are in no way getting.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2017, 12:07:40 am »
Firmino and Mane elevated themselves to that 2nd tier after signing for us. There are lots of good players out there we can get and we have signed good player but players wanted desperately by top clubs we are in no way getting.

Firmino and Mane were already top players when they joined us. They were playing for smaller clubs, so that is probably why you haven't noticed them.

Offline poopscoop

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #174 on: April 27, 2017, 12:41:01 pm »
In a word: no!

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #175 on: April 27, 2017, 12:55:54 pm »
There is no such thing as punching above your weight. You either do or you don't. The table doesn't lie. Yes, things can be a bit more involved than pure numbers suggest, but we are where we deserve to be based on past decisions.

Your decisions now are your future. That's why I want us to do better year on year in certain departments that affect the results on the pitch.

But punching above your weight belongs with such hoodoo as bogey teams - a statistical anomaly means fuck all about what you can do to address it. It isn't true in science or nature. There are only facts!

We are where we are because our efforts made it happen, good or bad.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #176 on: April 27, 2017, 03:55:11 pm »
And you will have to learn to live with that. Of course, we would all like to see LFC pursuing the likes of Griezmann or Dybala this summer, but it is not going to happen. And as the Mancs' world record signings proves, spending a fortune on a single player guarantees nothing.

This the same Man Utd with one trophy in the bag and another in their sights, the first year with a new manager at the helm?

That Man Utd?

Offline SteveLFC

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #177 on: April 27, 2017, 05:23:54 pm »
There is no such thing as punching above your weight. You either do or you don't. The table doesn't lie. Yes, things can be a bit more involved than pure numbers suggest, but we are where we deserve to be based on past decisions.

Your decisions now are your future. That's why I want us to do better year on year in certain departments that affect the results on the pitch.

But punching above your weight belongs with such hoodoo as bogey teams - a statistical anomaly means fuck all about what you can do to address it. It isn't true in science or nature. There are only facts!

We are where we are because our efforts made it happen, good or bad.

Okay, I take your point but lets flip the argument a bit.. Would this current squad be as high in the league if Jurgen Klopp was not the manager..? I know, its hypothetical and impossible to answer but my instinct tells me that this manager is able to squeeze everything he can possibly squeeze out of a squad = punching above our weight.

Offline SteveLFC

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #178 on: April 27, 2017, 05:25:26 pm »
This the same Man Utd with one trophy in the bag and another in their sights, the first year with a new manager at the helm?

That Man Utd?

Good point but when you spend around 90 million on one player you kind of expect them to be beating all before them with ease.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #179 on: April 27, 2017, 05:56:46 pm »
This the same Man Utd with one trophy in the bag and another in their sights, the first year with a new manager at the helm?

That Man Utd?

Mourinho should be winning things considering the money he has had to spend this season. He also underperformed in the Premier League for a good part of the season too.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #180 on: April 27, 2017, 06:51:36 pm »
Good point but when you spend around 90 million on one player you kind of expect them to be beating all before them with ease.

They don't just get Pogba for one season like.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #181 on: April 27, 2017, 06:54:35 pm »
They don't just get Pogba for one season like.

Thank fuck.

Would be annoying if they only had that for a season.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #182 on: April 27, 2017, 07:05:43 pm »
Okay, I take your point but lets flip the argument a bit.. Would this current squad be as high in the league if Jurgen Klopp was not the manager..? I know, its hypothetical and impossible to answer but my instinct tells me that this manager is able to squeeze everything he can possibly squeeze out of a squad = punching above our weight.

Well, it's mainly Rodgers' players and he got us to #2 with many of the same core players! I know he was doing shite towards the end, but Jurgen may not be the only manager who could make us succeed - I don't want to find out though ;)

I don't like what ifs, they're a bit... impossible..  the reality is we are where we are due to what has happened, and Klopp is part of that, and I think he's boss - if he's wringing everything out of our team, HE isn't punching above his weight! Depends where you draw the line I suppose!

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #183 on: April 27, 2017, 08:53:22 pm »
I reckon if we'd kept 1 of those players that got us to number 2 we wouldn't be wondering about 4th place right now.

Another What If, but a very tantalising one :D

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #184 on: April 27, 2017, 10:35:07 pm »
To answer the question - I don't think we are punching above our weight. We are performing in line with expectations. We have overperformed against the top sides and underperformed against the sides at the lower half of the table.

About the squad - we have had less games than the other top sides. Because of that the need for more players has not been as big as we perhaps want it to be. Since we want to climb higher next season we need to look at this year and assess how we can become stronger. The simple answer is better players, but not more players. Key players need to be able to play lots of games, for example.

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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #185 on: April 27, 2017, 10:38:24 pm »
To answer the question - I don't think we are punching above our weight. We are performing in line with expectations. We have overperformed against the top sides and underperformed against the sides at the lower half of the table.

About the squad - we have had less games than the other top sides. Because of that the need for more players has not been as big as we perhaps want it to be. Since we want to climb higher next season we need to look at this year and assess how we can become stronger. The simple answer is better players, but not more players. Key players need to be able to play lots of games, for example.

Mane got injured during a fall. Coutinho got injured after an awkward challenge. If we dont sign more players we can use then we might as well go and have the same season again.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #186 on: April 27, 2017, 10:47:29 pm »
I reckon if we'd kept 1 of those players that got us to number 2 we wouldn't be wondering about 4th place right now.

Agree. We'd be higher up with Sturridge in 13/14 form. Add Gerrard and naturally Suarez, well... we can dream and speculate. Suarez is a unique player. Every side in the world would adjust to his abilities. Very, very few players are at that level.

This does however illustrate my point from above. The answer is not just a lot of new players. Add quality, where the ability to play more or less every league game is one such quality, and we'll improve. If we add those kinds of players, they will need room and trust and it will be counter-productive to add too many just to be on the "safe side".

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"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #187 on: April 27, 2017, 10:59:26 pm »
Mane got injured during a fall. Coutinho got injured after an awkward challenge. If we dont sign more players we can use then we might as well go and have the same season again.

My conclusion is that our current substitutes, those that got to play when Coutinho and Mane are/were out are not good enough. Those substitutes are the ones we should replace and upgrade on. Since we are talking attacking players here, who are they?

Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, Lallana, Origi, Sturridge, Ings.

In the simplest model, we keep the number of players the same for next season. The first four are more or less guaranteed to stay. Means the last three is where we look to upgrade. 1-3 of those players need to leave if we are to become a better side next season. And we should look for replacements we can expect to be able to play 30+ league games. The real mistake would be to keep everyone and buy one or two more.

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"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #188 on: April 27, 2017, 11:02:22 pm »
My conclusion is that our current substitutes, those that got to play when Coutinho and Mane are/were out are not good enough. Those substitutes are the ones we should replace and upgrade on. Since we are talking attacking players here, who are they?

Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, Lallana, Origi, Sturridge, Ings.

In the simplest model, we keep the number of players the same for next season. The first four are more or less guaranteed to stay. Means the last three is where we look to upgrade. 1-3 of those players need to leave if we are to become a better side next season. And we should look for replacements we can expect to be able to play 30+ league games. The real mistake would be to keep everyone and buy one or two more.

We should replace Sturridge, Ings. But does it matter if we keep an extra player here or there? Players get injured in various ways. We could have used Allen, Markovic and maybe even Benteke this season. Instead we went on this mad policy to slim the squad and win the net spend world cup.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #189 on: April 27, 2017, 11:10:19 pm »
I personally don't rate the overall standard of the PL, I think it's really poor in comparison to other top leagues .  We aren't great ...we're better than many but we aren't great ....If we are to get CL then I hope is not through a qualifier because they can be tricky and I'm not sure we'd get through one as the squad currently stands .

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #190 on: April 27, 2017, 11:17:10 pm »
Under imo.

No Europe so we have an advantage and we're still potentially 11 points off Spurs who have been in Europe/FA Cup. Chelsea too are 15 clear w/o Europe.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #191 on: April 28, 2017, 12:14:02 am »
We should replace Sturridge, Ings. But does it matter if we keep an extra player here or there? Players get injured in various ways. We could have used Allen, Markovic and maybe even Benteke this season. Instead we went on this mad policy to slim the squad and win the net spend world cup.

It depends. Allen, Markovic and Benteke could not force their way into the first eleven. They're just nice to have options. What we need is essentially players who make the first eleven. This is the reason I also look to Sturridge, Ings and even Origi as players we could/should replace in the summer. They are not starters and have the 'weakest' positions if we want to improve our attack. I think it's safe to say that we have not seen any real benefit of having Ings and Sturridge around. This kind of depth we can do without.

We also need to think about our promising young players. We seem to rate Woodburn, so we need to ensure we don't keep too many competitors for him in the squad. So no extra player to compete with him.

The reason I suport the idea to shrink the squad is it exposes what we have. It's a good thing that simplifies things. I don't see it as a cost hunt. We can now say that Sakho, Markovic, Ings, Sturridge and Moreno add very little. They don't play and they don't impact our results. If our squad size was correct and we wanted to improve, we wouldn't have to look beyond that. Five exits, five new players and that's our task for the summer.

This is how we should think about competition in the squad. It's simple, but it's also brutal and there is no place to hide, no place for players that are nice to have around just in case. When we have kept the extra players, we have signalled that it's OK to stick around even if you don't have a big role. That I believe is about to end.

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"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #192 on: April 28, 2017, 12:22:06 am »
It depends. Allen, Markovic and Benteke could not force their way into the first eleven. They're just nice to have options. What we need is essentially players who make the first eleven. This is the reason I also look to Sturridge, Ings and even Origi as players we could/should replace in the summer. They are not starters and have the 'weakest' positions if we want to improve our attack. I think it's safe to say that we have not seen any real benefit of having Ings and Sturridge around. This kind of depth we can do without.

We also need to think about our promising young players. We seem to rate Woodburn, so we need to ensure we don't keep too many competitors for him in the squad. So no extra player to compete with him.

The reason I suport the idea to shrink the squad is it exposes what we have. It's a good thing that simplifies things. I don't see it as a cost hunt. We can now say that Sakho, Markovic, Ings, Sturridge and Moreno add very little. They don't play and they don't impact our results. If our squad size was correct and we wanted to improve, we wouldn't have to look beyond that. Five exits, five new players and that's our task for the summer.

This is how we should think about competition in the squad. It's simple, but it's also brutal and there is no place to hide, no place for players that are nice to have around just in case. When we have kept the extra players, we have signalled that it's OK to stick around even if you don't have a big role. That I believe is about to end.

Its not just nice to have options, its essential. In our ultimate quest to keep the squad size down, we flogged Markovic and Allen when we quite obviously needed depth and quality in those positions.

Those players may lack ultimate quality but are you telling me that they would not have got any games or were not better options than Lucas, Grujic or Woodburn?

Its a utopia having a squad where you trust every single player. As we had a bunch of rubbish and injury prone centre backs, 1 senior left back who wasnt trusted, 1 back up midfielder or no wingers then we should hwge either replaced them or we should have been pragmatic.

Instead we got it down to a small size and in reality the squad is even small, when you factor in injuries and the fact that he doesnt trust people like Moreno. All we have done is damaged ourselves here.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #193 on: April 28, 2017, 09:37:48 pm »
Its not just nice to have options, its essential. In our ultimate quest to keep the squad size down, we flogged Markovic and Allen when we quite obviously needed depth and quality in those positions.

Those players may lack ultimate quality but are you telling me that they would not have got any games or were not better options than Lucas, Grujic or Woodburn?

Its a utopia having a squad where you trust every single player. As we had a bunch of rubbish and injury prone centre backs, 1 senior left back who wasnt trusted, 1 back up midfielder or no wingers then we should hwge either replaced them or we should have been pragmatic.

Instead we got it down to a small size and in reality the squad is even small, when you factor in injuries and the fact that he doesnt trust people like Moreno. All we have done is damaged ourselves here.

There will always be a hierarchy in the squad. We won't trust every player to be as good as the others. But in order to improve, we needed to lose a number of players at the bottom of the hierarchy. We have had too many of them. The way I see it, this has been one of our biggest problems. We have valued depth over quality. As we can see this season, when we have had less depth, it doesn't really have a negative impact on our league position.

This is why I'd say that this season we are punching our weight. Before have overspent if we compare what we have actually achieved.

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Offline whiteboots

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #194 on: April 30, 2017, 10:13:30 am »
There is no such thing as punching above your weight. You either do or you don't. The table doesn't lie. Yes, things can be a bit more involved than pure numbers suggest, but we are where we deserve to be based on past decisions.Your decisions now are your future. That's why I want us to do better year on year in certain departments that affect the results on the pitch.But punching above your weight belongs with such hoodoo as bogey teams - a statistical anomaly means fuck all about what you can do to address it. It isn't true in science or nature. There are only facts!We are where we are because our efforts made it happen, good or bad.
The concept of punching above your weight in football is scientific, it is about getting lucky with the percentages. Like rolling a double six twice. it is possible, but not probable.

More generally I agree that we are where we are because of our actions, and over time, luck evens itself out, good and bad.

Post Rafa we have had the Hodgson error, the understandable but flawed nostalgic KK dalliance, work experience Brendan, and now a manager who fits. He needs time, at least three years.

Offline reddebs

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #195 on: April 30, 2017, 10:29:20 am »


Well, it's mainly Rodgers' players and he got us to #2 with many of the same core players!

It's really not mate.  The only players still here from that 2013/14 season are Migs, Lucas, Coutinho and Sturridge. 

The rest were brought in after that season.

Offline PeterTheRed ...

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #196 on: April 30, 2017, 10:44:36 am »
Well, it's mainly Rodgers' players and he got us to #2 with many of the same core players!

Than again, put Suarez on this Klopp's team, and we will walk the league.

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #197 on: April 30, 2017, 09:30:03 pm »
That's one of those "what ifs" that's cruel to yourself to dream about :)

Offline SquirrelandGman

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #198 on: April 30, 2017, 09:34:10 pm »
Nah i think 4th is about par for this team.

We're out of the cups and was never in europe. As some has said with suarez we'd probably be above chelsea now.. but yeah anything less than 4th I honestly think we're under-performing.

The likes of  lallana firmino and gini have stepped up and made us a better team. While we know mane and coutinho would walk into any PL side.

Honestly think if hendo, matip and mane stay fit..we'd be challenging for the title.

Offline andy07

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #199 on: April 30, 2017, 11:27:21 pm »
Our results against the top 7 say it all, on our day we have the best team in the league.    The team that wins the league has to be "on its day maybe 30 out of 38 days".   We need a psychological overhaul of our approach against many of the so called lesser lights, and we have lacked the strength in depth, maybe 4 or 5 more first team players would have put another 8-10 points on the board.
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